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Markos Moulitsas WARNS OBAMA On Health Reform: " PUBLIC OPTION Is Our Waterloo "

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Segami Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-09-09 12:21 AM
Original message
Markos Moulitsas WARNS OBAMA On Health Reform: " PUBLIC OPTION Is Our Waterloo "
"Daily Kos" founder Markos Moulitsas warned President Obama that the netroots were growing tired of the administration's foundering efforts to deliver health care reform, and that the last couple months have left them "not very hopeful" about the White House living up to a major theme of their presidential campaign:


" We all, at the end of the day, want Obama to do the right thing, but we're not very hopeful given the last couple months. Given the lack of message discipline from the White House. Given the vast number of Democrats that are willing to compromise against each other. They're not even negotiating with Republicans; they're negotiating against each other. And really when you have a campaign for the presidency that was built on hope and on getting rid of cynicism, there would be no greater return of cynicism than to show that the insurance companies and lobbyists have won this debate. "


Moulitsas also warned the administration not to cave on the public option because "at this point it is sort of our Waterloo":


" We're not talking what we really wanted - we really wanted single payer - so we already compromised from our position. I think the public option at this point is sort of our Waterloo, This is where we stand and fight.


WATCH:


<http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2009/09/08/markos-moulitsas-warns-ob_n_280053.html>
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zulchzulu Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-09-09 12:31 AM
Response to Original message
1. As one for Single Payer and the Public Option, this is NOT "Our Waterloo"
Surely I think the Public Option will be part of the FINAL bill that goes through the House and Senate, but there is also clearly an opportunity to paint the Republicans as not wanting to change the OBVIOUS bad situation that the US health care industry is in and will be even more so if reform legislation is passed.

I think we will have something at least close to a Public Option by the time the votes are finally counted and signed by Obama in the late Fall.

If Markos wants to be the big anti-Obama dweeb to help have the Democrats lose badly in 2010 and make it EVEN WORSE, so be it. Surely he must know it's up to the Congress and Senate to make the legislation for him to sign. He's not a King, ferchrissakes.

The "Waterloo" comment is a tad too drama-queeny IMHO.
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Jennicut Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-09-09 12:35 AM
Response to Reply #1
5. He can be over the top sometimes
but essentially all the liberals on the left want a public option. Some of us get that conservadems are blocking real reform, not Obama.
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tinrobot Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-09-09 12:38 AM
Response to Reply #1
6. "sort of our Waterloo" is drama-queeny?
I think the nutcases shouting down the town halls were the drama queens.

Markos made his point directly and without screaming. I agree with him, we do need to voice our opinions strongly and the public option is our line in the sand.
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Segami Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-09-09 12:40 AM
Response to Reply #1
7. Rationalize all you want. the reality is that the so called ' public option ' has now become its own
beast unleashed that only Obama can tame. It has become synonymous with real health care reform so anything purposed or agreed upon shy of containing a robust ' public option ' will be viewed by health care reformers as a total failure and a win win for the repukes and Insurance industry.
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ProSense Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-09-09 12:45 AM
Response to Reply #7
8. That may be, but the panic from everyone, including Markos, runs counter to reality
Edited on Wed Sep-09-09 12:47 AM by ProSense


Nothing has changed (in fact, support edged up 2 points), and one can reason that the high-levels of support the public option enjoyed earlier remains intact.

It shows that the tremendous volume of noise from the lunatic right and all the media distortions failed miserably. Remember, some people are still pushing the bogus claim that Obama did nothing. If that was true, then the negative noise would have had a greater impact, and surely that impact would have resulted in a drop, not a slight increase in support.

It shows that claims about how horrible August was for the public option is nothing more than negative spin.
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Segami Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-09-09 12:57 AM
Response to Reply #8
10. I am aware of those polling numbers and yet, even if you broadcast those polling results
every night on prime time, the overall public's perception will still view it as an Obama health care reform failure should the ' public option ' be withdrawn. It has taken on a suspended life of its own and has now become the last stand battle cry of many for health care reform.
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ProSense Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-09-09 01:00 AM
Response to Reply #10
11. Doesn't that tell you something?
There are 15 ways to do this. When health care reform passes, none of this will matter.

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Segami Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-09-09 01:10 AM
Response to Reply #11
13. You are correct but that still won't buy you any support or votes if the people end up feeling
betrayed by Obama's promises and ( rest assured ), there is plenty of video evidence showing Obama pushing ' single payer ' in his early campaign which then morphed into a ' public option ' and has now whittled down to a ' trigger option ' at best. The republicans don't need to do anything to win seats back in the next election, the Dems are doing a dandy of a job for them.
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tomp Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-09-09 09:37 PM
Response to Reply #8
92. forgive my statistical naivete but...
...although support went up 2%, opposition went up 3% and is still ahead of support, meaning more people have since decided against a "healthcare reform bill". besides, the question doesn't even say what is in this bill people are for or against their representatives voting for.
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ProSense Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-09-09 12:53 AM
Response to Reply #7
9. Speaking of "Waterloo."
why didn't failing at health care reform limit Clinton to one term?

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avaistheone1 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-09-09 01:20 AM
Response to Reply #9
14. The need for health care reform is much more dire now than it was then.
The economy is significantly worse than it was in Clinton presidency. This is the single worst economy in the U.S. since Great Depression. Now more people are in poverty, and are on food stamps. Millions have lost their jobs as well as their homes. There are no jobs in sight to replace the millions of jobs that have been off-shored in recent years either. Clinton may have had an economy where he could get away not delivering health care. However, Obama does not have that luxury. A safety net must be established regarding health care for the American people especially when the economy is so terribly tough.

In addition Democrats have all the power this time around: the presidency, the Senate and the Congress. Clinton did not have all these majorities. This time is very different.

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treestar Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-09-09 11:24 AM
Response to Reply #14
36. BS on the economy
Just too negative a view. And if it is that bad, we could not pay for health care either, could we?

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ShortnFiery Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-09-09 12:21 PM
Response to Reply #14
76. Not if it continues to GUT the middle class. The poor and the rich are fine ...
It's the educated middle class that you will lose with mandates and increased insurance premiums.

Who cares if you're covered if their "denial of reimbursement" leads one to bankruptcy?
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villager Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-09-09 01:46 AM
Response to Reply #9
15. the failure sure did wonders for Clinton's "Democratic" congress, eh?
n/t
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frylock Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-09-09 10:49 AM
Response to Reply #15
17. no shoot..
but don't let pesky facts get in the way of that particular poster's allegience.
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CKennedy16 Donating Member (26 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-09-09 02:34 PM
Response to Reply #15
86. If not now.... WHEN????????????
Never before have the Dems had as much political collateral as they did after Obama's victory win. If they blow a public option now.... then WHEN???? When do we quit throwing the poor and middleclass under the bus to appease corporate pigs? 2016? Call it something other than Waterloo if you want, but defeat is defeat --- Obama has to fight for PO tooth and nail!!! And if it means going it alone w/o Rethugs, screw 'em!!! Otherwise, believe me, this party is done for.
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wisteria Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-09-09 02:55 PM
Response to Reply #7
89. I would like to know just how many Americans really even know what the public option is. n/t
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Neecy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-09-09 10:51 AM
Response to Reply #1
18. drama-queeny?
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joeycola Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-09-09 12:42 PM
Response to Reply #1
82. It maybe will be our Waterloo.
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wisteria Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-09-09 02:53 PM
Response to Reply #1
88. Yeah! n/t
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msongs Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-09-09 12:32 AM
Response to Original message
2. dailyKos doesnt pay big enough bribes to democratic congresspersons lol nt
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Davis_X_Machina Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-09-09 12:33 AM
Response to Original message
3. He's picking the wrong last ditch to die in.
The public option, if it's even in the final bill, simply represents another place where you can make your mandated purchase -- and mandates will be in the final bill -- of insurance.

If you work for a firm that doesn't offer insurance, that is.

And if it's smaller than 20 -- or 50 -- employers, at least according to H.R. 3200.

Congressionally speaking the single-payer train has already left the station. H.R. 676 (Medicare for All) actually had more co-sponsors in the last Congress than this one.

I'm not saying 'Don't fight', I am saying the public option is terrain on which no one would ever fight by choice. It will disappoint fewer people than the alternative, which is a pretty weak battle cry. But it will not usher in the health care millennium.
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ShortnFiery Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-09-09 11:06 AM
Response to Reply #3
23. No, it's the ONLY counter to the insurance companies, and once IMPLEMENTED
the Public Option can be strengthened to KEEP PREMIUMS DOWN.
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Davis_X_Machina Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-09-09 11:33 AM
Response to Reply #23
45. Too small to accomplish that goal...
Edited on Wed Sep-09-09 11:34 AM by Davis_X_Machina
...which is why it will be included. It's a sop to liberals. It's crumbs off the table.

You're demanding something they're going to give you anyways, because it won't materially change the health-care picture.
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ProSense Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-09-09 12:34 AM
Response to Original message
4. Why rehash this moronic RW slogan? n/t
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dionysus Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-09-09 11:05 AM
Response to Reply #4
22. maybe to fire up his folks and make some more bread off of his site?
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Robber M Donating Member (25 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-09-09 01:02 AM
Response to Original message
12. I'm rooting for the public option!
But I'm ALSO sick and tired of a small number of people dictating to the President of the United States what he should or should not do!
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ShortnFiery Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-09-09 11:10 AM
Response to Reply #12
25. Yea, don't you love the continuance of Summary Executions & Renditions ...
And Oh! How's that righteous war in Afghanistan going for us?

I wonder, could some of that 12 Billion per month spent on death and destruction be spent on something better? :(
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dionysus Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-09-09 11:24 AM
Response to Reply #25
37. what does that have to do with this thread? can't you keep your outbursts on topic at least?
;)

and BTW, where are we doing summary executions?
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ShortnFiery Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-09-09 11:53 AM
Response to Reply #37
55. It has everything to do with this thread. Our country is being run to the corporate right.
So the BILLIONS we're spending in Iraq/Afghanistan has NOTHING to do with paying for the cost of Health Care Reform.

How about you address me instead of playing the GOP "hit game" of attacking the messenger?
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dionysus Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-09-09 12:01 PM
Response to Reply #55
62. someone said they support the public option, and you busted out with a non sequitur. all i did was
ask you why. you seem to be considering that an attack.
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ShortnFiery Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-09-09 12:07 PM
Response to Reply #62
68. Please? We all know you're "smart" - there's no need for brow beating. eom
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dionysus Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-09-09 10:47 AM
Response to Original message
16. oh noes, kos has spoken!
:eyes:
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DisgustipatedinCA Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-09-09 10:58 AM
Response to Reply #16
19. Do you have something more erudite to say?
Didn't fucking think so.
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dionysus Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-09-09 11:00 AM
Response to Reply #19
20. i like it how people glom onto what some inconsequential blogger says as if it's gospel truth
Edited on Wed Sep-09-09 11:03 AM by dionysus
when it enforces their opinion. ie, an excuse to express disdain toward the prez...

apparently it touched a nerve.
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ShortnFiery Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-09-09 11:07 AM
Response to Reply #20
24. Inconsequential? I sense that you are a little jealous.
:evilgrin:
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dionysus Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-09-09 11:14 AM
Response to Reply #24
28. nah. in his niche, the world of political blogs, he's got a name. if you go out on the street and
ask people who he is, i doubt you'd get many who would know him.
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DisgustipatedinCA Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-09-09 11:11 AM
Response to Reply #20
26. You're right...it did touch a nerve
Excuse to express disdain for the president? Got any proof there, Einstein? No? Have you looked at my posts since 2001 to see how much disdain I've expressed toward Obama or Democrats? No? That's ok. I don't have any proof that Dionysus raped and killed someone recently...do you really want to continue this?
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dionysus Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-09-09 11:16 AM
Response to Reply #26
29. continue what? you're the one who jumped in being a jerk, because i don't give a crap about kos
Edited on Wed Sep-09-09 11:19 AM by dionysus
oh noes, you must really have one for the guy if my one sentence post upset you so much.

the reality; kos is just some dude with a message board, pretty much known only to political junkies. he's not all that special.

:shrug:
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ShortnFiery Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-09-09 11:24 AM
Response to Reply #29
35. Yes, it's so much more comfortable to hop on the "money and power" DLC/Blue dog train
it has all the best amenities. :puke:

All you have to do is say "I've got mine, screw the rest, and God Bless ENTRENCHED Power of America's Corporations." :crazy:

Yes, it's a warm place, but it's also morally reprehensible.

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dionysus Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-09-09 11:26 AM
Response to Reply #35
39. uh, what does kos being just some guy with a blog have to do with the fools at the DLC?
:shrug:
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ShortnFiery Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-09-09 11:32 AM
Response to Reply #39
42. He's not just "some guy with a blog" but more importantly - the vast majority of progressive
agree with him. Well, progressives with a working conscious, which at this time, DOES NOT include a number within the "democratic leadership" (Rangel, Clyburn, etc.) These pseudo-progressives are far too entrenched in the power structures that rule over us and have either been duped or abdicated.
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dionysus Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-09-09 11:33 AM
Response to Reply #42
44. well, to me he's still some guy with a blog, but don't take that to mean i side with the conservadem
Edited on Wed Sep-09-09 11:37 AM by dionysus
senators or the DLC either.

we probably agree on many things except for the outrage level they produce.
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ShortnFiery Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-09-09 11:42 AM
Response to Reply #44
48. No, I don't think we have much in common.
I have more sympathy for the liberal democrats who have "feet of clay." Why? I understand FEAR. However, I have zero respect for the highly intelligent DLC/Blue Dogs who, I believe, view themselves ABOVE the average American working stiff. They BELIEVE that through their lies and obfuscations that we will continued to be duped and vote for them.

We KNOW that intelligent democrats who are insightful would all be for helping "the average American" instead of bleeding the middle class dry with mandated premiums. Yes, I can't understand the lack of conscious of DLC/Blue Dogs because they do "know better."

Don't insult my intelligence ... and passion for what is "HUMANE" for all Americans is a good thing.
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dionysus Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-09-09 11:52 AM
Response to Reply #48
53. i just told you i have no love for the DLC\blue dogs, and you say i've insulted your intelligence.
Edited on Wed Sep-09-09 11:52 AM by dionysus
so obviously you've decided to run around with your hair on fire no matter what i say.
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ShortnFiery Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-09-09 11:53 AM
Response to Reply #53
57. You are enabling them. But you already knew that didn't you? eom
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dionysus Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-09-09 11:55 AM
Response to Reply #57
59. by not into going into hysterics on a message board i am enabling the blue dogs? how is that?
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ShortnFiery Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-09-09 12:03 PM
Response to Reply #59
65. All you can do is attack me personally. Gee, you must be a Fox viewer? See how that works?
Edited on Wed Sep-09-09 12:04 PM by ShortnFiery
You have no argument because you know that a health care bill without a robust Public Option will GUT this country. However, you want to remain cerebral.

NO! It's time to get PASSIONATE.

We, the liberal democrats, will no longer lie down due to your tactics of censure and condescension.

This bill is for "all the marbles" of the 2010 election.

If the bill fails, it will be ALL about the DLC/Blue dogs' arrogance.

No more will I fold for the corporate neo-liberals who seemingly RULE our Legislative and Executive Branches.

It's beyond time they worked for Americans NOT the corporations represented on K Street.
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dionysus Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-09-09 12:09 PM
Response to Reply #65
70. you're operating on exaggeration and straw men, and putting words in other people mouths..
if you think engaging in histrionics on a message board is some noble cause for which you percieve me as being an enemy of, well, go right ahead i suppose.

you act like i am against a public option, when i never said any such thing. you also seem to think i am some kind of surrogate for the DLC, which is absurd.
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ShortnFiery Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-09-09 12:16 PM
Response to Reply #70
73. Your behavior is what some might term "elitist" - you attack the person in a haughty manner.
Shame. You know that, don't you?

I think thou protesth too much - as I merely suggested that your behavior enables those who would choose corporations needs over that of the average working American.

So far you are making my case for me. :shrug:
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dionysus Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-09-09 12:19 PM
Response to Reply #73
75. i'd say pragmatic, not elitist, but you are entitled to your opinion.
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ShortnFiery Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-09-09 12:22 PM
Response to Reply #75
77. Whatever ... you must be late for your latte at Starbucks? Later. eom
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dionysus Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-09-09 12:34 PM
Response to Reply #77
79. no, i'm going to cruise in my BMW to pick up some arugula.... sheesh
:rofl:
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treestar Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-09-09 11:24 AM
Response to Reply #16
38. !!!
Too negative and over dramatic, too.
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ShortnFiery Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-09-09 11:33 AM
Response to Reply #38
43. But that's exactly how the GOP wins. It's time to GET DRAMATIC as long as we are on the side of
"The Truth."
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treestar Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-09-09 11:38 AM
Response to Reply #43
47. But never against a Repuke President
No matter how far right a person is, they support Boosh, McPain or whoever.

The far left does not do this. Ergo, the conservatives get what they want - they can always rely on the drama of the far right being on their side.

This is liberals making the drama go against the Democratic President. Ergo, Democrats get stalled, do not get what they want - we all laugh at the right wing calling Obama a socialist - if only they knew!

They are the reason we don't have health care yet. Being purists, they won't take the incremental steps and stomp off. Leaving a vacuum for the right wing once again.

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ShortnFiery Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-09-09 11:47 AM
Response to Reply #47
51. The corporate-centrist dems make our political system "a right wing duopoly."
Edited on Wed Sep-09-09 11:48 AM by ShortnFiery
They are all about large corporate profits and continued warfare.

This neoconservative bent RULING both parties is not normal. We have the numbers, and yet, we allow those who take corporate money to run our country.

No, something's very wrong here: WE MUST flush the DLC / blue dog democrats out of our party with, IMO, extreme prejudice. There's no other way if we wish to reclaim The Democratic Party as being "The voice of the people" vice the bloated multi-national corporations.
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dionysus Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-09-09 11:53 AM
Response to Reply #47
56. some people would rather remain on the losing side and feel righteous then do the best with what we
have. maybe it was 8 years of bush that did it, who knows.
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ShortnFiery Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-09-09 12:12 PM
Response to Reply #56
71. Yes, because it's all about WINNING? So what if we morph into fascism via Neo-liberalism.
It's all about WINNING even if it means that we continue the policies within one big, beautiful corporate duopoly. By God Citizen, do your part! Let the ruling party be run by "Democrats" so our boys/girls get the most graft from K Street. :crazy:
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dionysus Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-09-09 12:49 PM
Response to Reply #71
83. no, it means that, in the face of a system that is rigged in so many ways, you have to make progress
Edited on Wed Sep-09-09 12:50 PM by dionysus
where you can, realizing that you can't overthrow the entire system and start over from scratch.

it means getting a public option as the first stepping stone to single payer. your ideals are great, but in the climate in which we exist, you will always be dissappointed. I'd be thrilled to completely redo the system and start over with single payer, but it's possible right now.

the scope of the change is so great that in order to fix system, you'd have to overthrow it. but outside of the realm of political junkies where we exist, the general populace is too ignorant or apathetic to accomplish that goal. the sad fact is, most people don't give a shit about politics as long as they have monday night football or american idol.

by all means, be a passionate advocate. hopefully we will be pleasantly surprised at how this thing shakes out.
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treestar Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-09-09 03:50 PM
Response to Reply #71
90. Well yes. Getting health care reform would be "winning."
Working against the party going in the direction you want causes more "losing." More losing means more Republicans.

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ShortnFiery Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-09-09 11:04 AM
Response to Original message
21. Markos is spot on! There's no half-stepping this position. Public Option or ...
the bill's a BUST. :grr:
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BeyondGeography Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-09-09 11:12 AM
Response to Original message
27. He comes off as more of a web-based entertainer than a thinker sometimes
This is one of those times.
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dionysus Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-09-09 11:20 AM
Response to Reply #27
31. he gotta make a living off his site somehow. riling people up is a pretty good tool for that.
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Mass Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-09-09 11:18 AM
Response to Original message
30. Markos, you're threatening the wrong people. Blue Dogs in the House and Senate,
including your pal Reid, are the ones who are the key to getting public option.
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polichick Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-09-09 11:47 AM
Response to Reply #30
50. He's suggesting that the WH needs to stop coddling the blue dogs...
...and side with activists on the left.
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Mass Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-09-09 11:51 AM
Response to Reply #50
52. I know what he is suggesting, but he is letting the Congress out of the loop
Edited on Wed Sep-09-09 11:52 AM by Mass
If Reid was a better leader, we would not be having this discussion.
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polichick Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-09-09 11:53 AM
Response to Reply #52
54. Sure, because this was a conversation on tv about the prez' speech. nt
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Mass Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-09-09 11:57 AM
Response to Reply #54
60. I know all that, and it does not change what I said at the beginning.
Edited on Wed Sep-09-09 12:00 PM by Mass
In addition, he uses a Republican meme ("Waterloo" has been used for months about Healthcare by the GOP). I want a public option as much as anybody here (more than some I suspect), but that does not force me to agree with his writing (whether or not I agree with his overall idea).
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polichick Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-09-09 12:03 PM
Response to Reply #60
64. Did you even watch the video? This isn't "his writing" - he's having...
...a conversation with Big Ed about the speech.
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Mass Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-09-09 12:06 PM
Response to Reply #64
67. And, how does this change my opinion? Give me a break. I do not have to admire Markos, do I.
Edited on Wed Sep-09-09 12:09 PM by Mass
This is what is so tiring here. People care more about who says something than what they say. I object to the use of a Republican meme.

Which is highly silly because I know we agree about the issue at end (the WH AND the Senate coddle too much to the Blue Dogs). I just do not think what he says is useful.
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polichick Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-09-09 12:08 PM
Response to Reply #67
69. No - but your posts might make more sense if you actually watched the video. nt
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Jakes Progress Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-09-09 11:21 AM
Response to Original message
32. More Katrina than Waterloo.
Goes to public perception. Is he in charge? Can he get things done" Does he care?

The reality of the questions are not as vital to elections as the perceptions.

bush could have argued, and did, that it was not his to control, that he didn't cause the storm, that he couldn't help it if people didn't do their job, that there were other important things to consider. Arguing didn't help. Katrina was to most people the proof that he wasn't really in charge, he couldn't get things done, and that he didn't really care. Katrina started his slide.

Just passing any legislation, however lame, would be same as bush saying that they eventually got around to some of the problems, that many were helped. The mess was left unfixed. Still is. That is like passing some bill that only works around the edges and doesn't really do the job of health care reform.
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debbierlus Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-09-09 11:22 AM
Response to Original message
33. There comes a time when you don't continue to support those who betray you

If the democrats can't unite around a strong health care bill and negotiate for the benefit of the American people, then they should lose the support of the American people.

If they capitulate to the corporations on this issue, when the public option has about a 70% backing with the public, there is no excuse.

It will lay bear the one party system.

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dionysus Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-09-09 11:27 AM
Response to Reply #33
40. there was a time you supported democrats? who knew?
:rofl:
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ShortnFiery Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-09-09 11:37 AM
Response to Reply #40
46. DLC/Blue Dog Democrats are IMO, nothing more than enablers for the Corporate GOP.
From war to domestic legislation, the DLC/Blue Dogs have sold The Average Working American for their figurative 30 pieces of silver.

Yes, conservative/corporate democrats are, in a biblical sense, JUDASES within our beloved party. :grr:

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dionysus Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-09-09 11:54 AM
Response to Reply #46
58. i never said they weren't.
:shrug:
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ShortnFiery Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-09-09 11:58 AM
Response to Reply #58
61. Then stop enabling them. Lead, follow or, with respect --> get the hell out of the way.
If a robust Public Option does not enter the final bill, the Democratic Party will take a big hit.

Why?

It's still fascism if the neo-liberals continue to GUT the middle-class in this nation. I'll be damned if I will allow my beloved party to take the blame for all this evil.

We'll regroup, and perhaps when people in this country REALLY HURT, they'll vote in some Progressives with personal integrity vice the current crop DLC/Blue dogs and the frightened "liberals" who abdicate to them.
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dionysus Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-09-09 12:03 PM
Response to Reply #61
63. i'd like you to spell out why you think i am "enabling" the blue dogs by what i post on DU.
i'd be intersted in why you think that.
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ShortnFiery Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-09-09 12:06 PM
Response to Reply #63
66. Look in the mirror? ... by just being "you" is my best estimate - what you are doing here. eom
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dionysus Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-09-09 12:13 PM
Response to Reply #66
72. because i think it is too early to give up on the final bill which hasn't even come out yet?
Edited on Wed Sep-09-09 12:13 PM by dionysus
if you guys are right and what finally comes out sucks, i'll gladly eat crow. but pardon me if i think it's too early to get worked up.

and yes, it's obvious this will have negative effects on the 2010 election if it's bad as people fear.
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ShortnFiery Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-09-09 12:18 PM
Response to Reply #72
74. No but we need to FIGHT with PASSION every step of the way. That's where we differ.
You want to be "appropriate" and "tame." Well, nothing ever gets done unless you figuratively "raise a little hell."

If we can't make the MONEY TALK, then we can mobilize the unwashed masses.
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Better Believe It Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-09-09 11:23 AM
Response to Original message
34. How many more concessions to big business and Republicans will be made in pursuit of bi-partisanship
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ShortnFiery Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-09-09 11:27 AM
Response to Reply #34
41. ONE Corporate Duopoly ... the mighty Corporations on K Street now run Barter -Town.
Edited on Wed Sep-09-09 11:28 AM by ShortnFiery
However, before the Internet, the sheeple were much more easily coddled with promises and disinformation.

NO MORE!

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polichick Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-09-09 11:44 AM
Response to Original message
49. Kos speaks for a lot of the boots on the ground in the last election...
Edited on Wed Sep-09-09 11:57 AM by polichick
It's a tough spot the prez is in ~ but my guess is he'll lean toward the left without drawing a line in the sand.
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question everything Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-09-09 12:25 PM
Response to Original message
78. Markos Moulitsas should eat his own crap
Obama was elected in spite of him, not thanks to him.

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polichick Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-09-09 12:36 PM
Response to Reply #78
80. What planet do you spend most of your time on?? nt
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dionysus Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-09-09 01:04 PM
Response to Reply #78
84. well, that's going a smidge overboard i'll say...
:spray:
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Phx_Dem Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-09-09 12:37 PM
Response to Original message
81. Bite me Markos. Enough with the stupid threats. n/t
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riderinthestorm Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-09-09 01:12 PM
Response to Original message
85. Gosh, gays got thrown under the bus,
anyone not part of Wall St. got thrown under the bus with the bail out, people without health insurance (or who are struggling to pay their healthcare bills WITH insurance) are getting thrown under the bus....

Where do we draw the line, as progressives, on how far we "give"? Just because someone is a Dem doesn't necessarily mean they're right. I read Markos Moulitsas' warning as a kind of "final straw" moment.
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wisteria Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-09-09 02:52 PM
Response to Original message
87. He speaks for himself-not me. I support any effort to invoke positive change into our health care
system.
As for Markos, I doubt President Obama will change his mind on what he needs to do just because Markos doesn't like it.
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ShortnFiery Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-09-09 03:56 PM
Response to Reply #87
91. It may help the working poor but it's sure to gut the middle class without a Public Option.
:(
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