Just stop.

[Splinter Cell]

Please, stop fucking bitching about EVERYTHING. You don't have a damn clue what is going to happen until it happens. Obama is doing his best, and is fighting the impossible battle against the very soul of this country, greed.

Stop bitching about how he's not living up to your expectations. The problem isn't with him, it's with your expectations. Nobody would be doing better.

Stop talking about who the democrats will nominate in 2012. It's fuckin' August of '09. You can't possibly decide that Obama will be a failed president less then a year into his term. Enough already.

Some of the people here need to grow up. You can't just make all this shit happen because you want it. You have to fight the special interests, and they're a lot more powerful then we are. At least Obama is taking on the tough issues, not just doing enough to skate by until the next election.

You can't win the game if you don't play the fucking game. Period. Obama can't just announce that this is the way it is and the clouds part and the liberal ideal is realized. He has to fight every greedy, ignorant, special interest bastard and bitch to make this happen, and it's not gonna be easy. You can either get behind him or get out of the fuckin' way. Go vote for your Nader or Kucinich or whoever and feel better about yourself for "making a statement".
The rest of us are going to stay close to reality and back the people that can actually do something.

Nobody here has the answers. Nobody here has to shoulder the weight Obama is carrying. We can all sit at the computer and bitch, and talk about how we donated money or handed out buttons or whatever. The fact is, when the shit hits the fan and the political bullets fly in this war, Obama is our guy in the trenches. Let's make sure we have his back.

[HopeOverFear]

1. Thank you

[suzie]

72. +100

[AllexxisF1]

167. I would rather be...

I would rather be someone who stands for their principles and expect those we elected to do what we want than be some apologist.

Just because he is Democrat Barack Obama does not mean he gets a free ride.

We want single payer health care or a solid and firm public option.

Nothing less or we want no bill at all. Because anything less than this IS NO BILL AT ALL.

[cui bono]

235. Yep. n/t

[firedupdem]

2. K&R! n/t

[ProSense]

3. It's ironic: incessant whining from people who have the audacity to call the Dems spineless.

Incredible

[Ken Burch]

176. It's not your place to try and browbeat people into silence

No good would come of shutting up and "leaving it to the grownups". Nothing progressive ever happens in closed-door negotiations.

[valerief]

185. Yeah, it's an irony alert. The OP is whining about whining. nt

[roguevalley]

225. this has been bungled from the start. all this chaos should never

have happened. everyone saying something different every day is Obama's fault because it is his message to manage and he hasn't. I have stopped watching the news over this. I can't take it.

[ooglymoogly]

244. No matter what O says to congress

He has, by wheeling and dealing in back rooms, handed this watered down toothless fiasco to the pugs without as much of a whimper. He has fought for nothing and we will get nothing. It is quaint that the pugs lost everything in the elections but are winning everything that counts for the constitution and we the people. All hale Corporate Murka and their puppet gubment.

[robo50]

226. Where is there a person "browbeating" you into silence?

No one is doing that in America, nor here on the DU!

Your paranoid fantasies seem a bit extreme!

Progressive movements are filled with long struggles, and partial victories, and more struggles and more victories, or didn't you learn that yet?

[cui bono]

236. How would you describe your going apeshit over Thom Hartmann?

[QC]

275. Has Thom Hartmann now been declared an enemy of the people?

It's getting hard to keep up with them all.

[cui bono]

285. Oh yeah, that was one incredible screaming tirade. Thom of all people!

:rofl:

[QC]

287. Well, he such an angry, embittered radical that it's no wonder

he has fallen from grace among so gentle and conflict-averse a crowd as our True Believers.

[Political Tiger]

4. Damn right!!!!!!!!!!! n/t

[Number23]

48. I see your "Damn right!!!!!!!!!!!" and raise you a

HELLZ YEAH!!!!!! :headbang:
:headbang:

[azmouse]

5. Well said.

[Diane R]

6. Recommended, recommended, recommended, recommended......

[debbierlus]

7. Back room deals with health insurance lobbyists and no strength of purpose on a real public option

Wouldn't even TALK about Single Payer though a majority of Americans want it....

He has done FAR from his best & I am sick of his apologists.

[Cha]

12. debbiedowner from the get go..all you

do is whine and you're like the little boy who cried "wolf".

Whine Whine Whine..you were fucking whining about the Inauguration so spare us your latest whine.

[droidamus2]

73. Missing the bigger picture

It isn't just about Obama or the current crop of Democrats. For us that have been around long enough to see it (mostly post '60's early '70s) there has been a string of Democrats who seem to fear making a big push for something. It's always 'we can't expect to get that much so we will just have to accept what they give us', 'we have to be the good guys so we can't really fight hard for what we think is right'. Over and over the rhetoric has been 'we will bring you this program' and the actual result has been 'well at least we got you something'. Sometimes (civil rights, voting act, hell women's suffrage) the cause is big enough that you don't accept half-steps and you let it be known that there will be consequences for those in power if they don't live up to their promises and yes our expectations as those that voted for them and put them in office. Of course, when push comes to shove you would rather have somebody in office that half agrees with you than somebody that doesn't give a damn what you think but that doesn't mean you shouldn't keep your 'allies' feet to the fire and let them know what you expect them to accomplish.

[Ken Burch]

170. +1

Every time we defer to the right and the DLC, we lose.

Every time we listen to Rahm the Republican, we lose.

[webDude]

213. Thank you!

[Bonn1997]

16. Well put. There's no reason why we can't judge his silence on health care reform. The fact that

the issue has been the center of political debate for several months and we're waiting until next week JUST TO FIND OUT HIS POSITION on the issue speaks volumes.

[Captain Hilts]

139. That's exactly right. nt

[firedupdem]

20. You were done with him before the inauguration. Go start another

downer thread.

[cui bono]

238. Well I wasn't. But I've lost faith in him by now. Oh, please...

please tell me what I should do.

[firedupdem]

281. Start hoping for a replacement for 2012. At this point, that's all

you can do. right?

[cui bono]

288. No, I'm writing letters, gathering signatures, etc... did you want me to give up?

That's what I'm worried about with the apologists. That they're just waiting for their leader to do the right thing. We have to make sure he does the right thing. Then if he doesn't do right by us he ought to worry about that, or worse that a Republican comes back in.

That's why everyone, apologist and critic alike, must pull together and fight for what we want. This is no time to be complacent and not allow criticism to be made. This is precisely the time to put forth criticism and get to work. And this is absolutely the wrong time to tell people to shut up because you (the OP and others who rec and respond positively to this OP) can't handle the truth of how people feel. Obama is the person who needs their attention (get him to address the complaints and DO something), not the people who are rightfully pointing out what he needs to do better.

[inna]

34. +1

[defendandprotect]

118. Obama should be chanting: MEDICARE FOR ALL, EVERYONE IN, NO ONE OUT ---

[cui bono]

237. Damn right! n/t

[LooseWilly]

8. "Nobody here has the answers." Except you, apparently.

Why don't you set an example of "grown up" and stop whining about people airing their concerns? Your juxtaposition of a "liberal ideal" vs. "reality" sounds like you're ready to accept any surrender-esque compromise in advance, despite your own assertion that " You don't have a damn clue what is going to happen until it happens."

Why don't you shut up and stop agitating for surrendering Obama's own plan for a "public option"?

[Cha]

15. I like what the OP says..you whiners don't

know shit about what's going on.

[LooseWilly]

46. The OP is itself whining ...

about people expressing rage, frustration, outrage, and ennui in the face increasing signs that the Whitehouse may decide to give up on the public option.

You can call that whining, I call that voicing outrage, frustration, and ennui.

If the Obama apologists would like to call that "whining", so be it. If the Whitehouse would like to have it cease, then they damned well better decide to fight rather than surrender the "compromise" of a public option.

Fight how? Simple. The House is ready to pass a bill with a public option. If they can't be sure that the Senate has the numbers... fight. Bring up a bill. Make the Republicans fillibuster... and I mean make the bastards keep someone up at the podium 24 hours a day spewing word soup of whatever sort they please to delay a vote... but make them fillibuster. Make all the Senators vote. Make them vote against the public option. Make them vote to end a fillibuster thats really happening, or make them show themselves unwilling to vote for cloture.

If the Whitehouse really believes in the public option that Obama campaigned for... let them wrangle and herd the rest of the Democrats to fucking fight.

I may not know shit about what's going on... but you apologists obviously not only don't know shit, but you really don't give a shit. If you are willing to trust politicians' judgements about a fight that they aren't even willing to engage in, then you obviously don't really give a shit about the outcome of a fight... you're just whining because you are afraid of the results of criticism.

I call that the worst form of cowardice, and I don't care what you may call me for criticizing this new form of political cowardice, I'm going to go right on criticizing it until Obama either cowes the opposition, or leads the Democrats in a fight. If he and the Democrats lose, so be it. At least some spine in the name of convictions will be seen... and in the future the Republicans will have to think twice about their fillibuster threats.

Whiner.

[frylock]

101. fuckin-a!!

:applause:

[dana_b]

105. bravo!

well said! Make them fight for it... show us who they really are, and I think this fight will do that.

[defendandprotect]

119. It's a barrel of whine --

but the poster seems to have a blind spot to that -- !!

[Cha]

146. Stop Whining.

[LooseWilly]

161. I know you are, but what am I?

As long as we're gonna answer with a complete lack of wit or sensibility, let's do this right...

[varelse]

155. Whining about people whining about people whining

:hide:














OK, I have to admit, I agree with you. The irony was just irresistable. :blush:

[LooseWilly]

162. One is "supposed" to fight fire with fire, right?

That's what my homeowner's guide says...
:tinfoilhat:



Ok, I jest. I'm not a homeowner.
:+

[varelse]

222. "I'm not a homeowner."

Well, not anymore... but you do have a great case against the authors of that guide!

"always look at the bright side of life"

:P

[bvar22]

178. Recommending post #46.

:patriot:
The BIGGEST whiners at DU are all gathered in this Whine-A-Thon thread.

The Democrats OWN the White House.
The Democrats OWN the Senate.
The Democrats OWN The House.
The Democrats OWN overwhelming popular sup
If the Democrats do NOT deliver REAL reform (a robust Public Option),
it will be an open admission that Nader was right.

I'm NOT whining.
I AM making a promise.

[Ignis]

224. No kidding. Push the vote! Force the 'pubs to vote against it.

:patriot:

[flyarm]

189. +1 and thank you! it is our obligation under the constitution to be the bosses of our employees in

"OUR GOVERNMENT" AND THEY ARE ALL OUR EMPLOYEES ..EVEN IN THE WHITE HOUSE!

If they are getting my tax dollars as their salaries ..you can damn well count on me complaining when they are not doing the job i want..

Anybody got a problem with that doesn't deserve living in a democratic republic like ours!

Personally, I think it is the op who is "bitching"...try being a real American and hold up your obligation to the constitution, and hold every politician accountable, at all times!

That constitution says.."WE THE PEOPLE"..IT DOESN'T SAY WE THE PRESIDENT , OR WE THE CONGRESS OR WE THE SENATE..GET WITH THE RPOGRAM WILL YA?

[tbyg52]

206. Thank you.

:patriot:

[pa28]

234. Whining and hang wringing is of little practical use.

Critical thinking, analysis and a healthy distrust of any politician is always a good thing. Unfortunately, it looks like some here are ready and willing to shout down anyone who questions.

If this is not the time to hold Obama's decision making process up for scrutiny when is the time? Certainly not after the big decisions have been signed and sealed. You can be loyal but nobody should trust a politician blindly when their vital interests could be sold with a handshake. Usually they will be.

[cui bono]

239. FANTASTIC post!!!!!

:applause:

[Starry Messenger]

246. I like the cut of your jib.

:D

[Ken Burch]

177. Give me one reason why we should just shut up and "trust Obama"

No leaders, even the best ones, ever do anything that matters unless under constant pressure from below. And President Obama has repeatedly said that he doesn't WANT us to shut up. You aren't showing loyalty to them when you demand things from people the president doesn't want you to demand from them.

[Cha]

9. Hey, thanks Splinter Cell..

it was really refreshing to read your encouraging OP.

[pollo poco]

81. Way to think like a teabagger, Splinter cell

You call others you don't agree with whiners, and imply that they are weaker than the guys on your side. Typical of a certain stripe of self righteous American culture, left and right.
The anti reform people use the same cultural meme- we should all stop whining about health insurance. There is NO difference between the self righteous spew in this OP and some batty old republican on Medicare, whining about people who are whining about health care.

You are a whiner yourself. Why deny others the right to whine?

[Trajan]

87. There is a huge difference ....

This spew is for you ....

[Cha]

148. Stop your fucking whining.

[LooseWilly]

251. I know you are, but what am I?

Deja vu...

[question everything]

10. Well said

and to think that some would belittle your comments because of your "low posts count."

:hi:

[Spazito]

11. Well said!

Recommended.

[Bryan]

13. K&R

Just because the media at large is consumed with half-bright Kremlinology over the status of the health care bill is no reason we should be.

[Mystayya]

14. I will never stop speaking out passionately about issues that matter to me.

Sometimes those issues sometimes put me at odds with the president or the Dems in congress.

[sandnsea]

22. Do you have pictures?

I've been trying to gather pictures of the Moveon or Lets Get It Done or Health Care Now events across the country.

[Mystayya]

28. I'm sure if you contact them they can provide you with pictures.

[sandnsea]

29. I'm hoping to get first person testimonials

Didn't you go to some and speak passionately??

[Mystayya]

36. Oh silly me, I didn't realize you were trying to insult me in a back handed way.

I've marched with Answer, IVAW and VFP. Last year was taken up by primaries and elections. This year I'll be heading to DC on Oct 10-11th, you should join us as we march for equality. You can also make your views known by contacting your delegation often.

If you think I am going to spend my time posting pictures to prove myself to some snarky, annonymous collection of pixels, well then, you just hold your breath okay? I promise to get right on it.

[sandnsea]

39. Oh, so you haven't done anything on health care

Just as I figured.

[Mystayya]

41. Aren't you just precious !!

[Chef Eric]

70. Hey, I have an idea. Let's have a picture contest!!!

Whoever provides the most visual evidence of his political passion "wins." After all, it's all about the glory, isn't it? :sarcasm:

[Ken Burch]

171. We don't have to prove to YOU what we've done!

Where do you get off assuming that if the other poster doesn't have pictures, the other poster hasn't done anything?

It's not like YOU'VE done anything.

And it's not like these "shut up and leave it to the grownups" threads are ever a positive step.

[Ken Burch]

172. Mystayya doesn't have to post pictures to prove he or she has been active

Everyone else has done just as much as you have. You aren't entitled to do the "I have a right to my opinion and no one else does" number.

[Mystayya]

183. Thank you Ken

I hope everyone sees how absurd that poster is. I do actually have a few pictures my daughter took of one march, but generally I am to busy to be bothered taking pictures like its a tourist spot. I would never post them to try and "prove myself" to some random person on the internet.

[jberryhill]

194. The OP is clear - there is nothing TO do

"You don't have a damn clue what is going to happen until it happens"

As if anyone is going to get worked up and volunteer their time for "whatever happens".

Right.

[Odin2005]

58. ANSWER!?! BWAHAHA!!! ANSWER is a fucking joke that makes protesters look bad.

I wasn't happy when I was protesting the Iraq War and saw a bunch of idiots with "FREE MUMIA" signs and turning the thing into a fucking ideological advertisement rather than an anti-war protest.

[Mystayya]

63. Nice..........

Wow. Glad to know efforts to do some good offline are mocked here. Thanks for that. Perhaps this is not the site for me. So much nastiness and snark. I wish I had never seen your response because it just started my morning off on a sour note.

[QC]

71. And typical. n/t

[frylock]

102. this is the site for you..

don't let the right-of-centrist apologists drive you away.

[Hutzpa]

154. Right of centrist?

where you got that from>....:shrug:

[Amos Moses]

165. Oh, I don't know, rendition and torture, FISA, DADT,

permanent imperial war, Wall Street welfare bailouts with no intention to outlaw credit default swaps, "fierce" advocacy and pandering to Christian hate based initiatives, etc...

That's not just to the right of center. It's the Republican party platform. :think:

[kenfrequed]

79. Uhm

I have been at many anti-war protests and though there are occasionally a rather small number of signs that sometimes bring up other issues that the protestors individually believe are related, blaming the protesters that show up and march is about as stupid as agreeing with the administration that took us to war.

It was not diffusive message or lack of soundbite or confusion that led us to war in Iraq.

Suggesting otherwise is a way for "moderates" to blame Liberal Democrats because we happened to be right about the whole damned thing in the first friggin place. "Oh...it was too confusing, I couldn't tell what they were protesting....oh the chants to Edwin Star's song are too complicated."

The People that perpetuate this nonsensical alice in wonderland logic (and apparently inform you) need to grow up and take a bit of responsibility.

[jonnyblitz]

85. YOU protested the Iraq war? I find that hard to believe after

observing you mock and belittle folks who are against Obama's Afghan war escalation. I guess you were really protesting Bush back then and not war like many of the other DUers who i met at anti-war rallies under Bush who are now silent little Obamabots.

[defendandprotect]

116. Maybe understanding "Free Mumia" and what happened there would help

you understand who controls our country --

The desire for domination doesn't only leave to immoral war, it infects every part of our society --

[jberryhill]

196. Shooting A Cop Will Not Help Health Care Reform, I'm Pretty Sure /nt

[defendandprotect]

253. Like many other myths . . .

that one was put to bed long, long ago --

Read something on it --

[Name removed]

92. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Mystayya]

97. Awesome!

A friend of mine from HS is taking the drive down with me. If there is a DU group getting together I would love to meet some of you!

[slay]

56. I'm with ya 100% Mystayya

Every once in a while the pro-censorship side of DU tries to shut us down with posts like this when we disagree with Obama or are worried he might sell us out - but I too will continue to speak out when I feel we are headed the wrong way. And there isn't a damn thing they can do to stop us from doing so other than bitch and moan about it. To not speak our minds when we feel strongly about bad decisions our government is making would be... unpatriotic. ;) :toast: :hug: :patriot:

[Mystayya]

64. thanks- good to kow I am not alone.

[dana_b]

108. you aren't alone n/t

[MissDeeds]

82. Well said

I could not agree more. :hi:

[Chef Eric]

74. Good. Me neither.

I'll have plenty of time to stop questioning our leaders when I am dead.

[TayTay]

95. Who is trying to stop you?

how are they doing that?
what media has denied you a right to speak?
How has multiple free and open postings on sites like DU denied your right to speak?
What have fellow posters done to deny that right to speak?

AND

Is being called on to defend what someone read in a post on a political bulletin board somehow analogous with being denied free speech? If someone reads what you wrote and disagrees with it and says so in print, is that a continuation of free speech or a denial of it?

Who is trying to stop you from speaking out passionately about what you believe in? Are others allowed to speak out passionately about what they believe in and is that threatening?

[Mystayya]

98. Ask yourself why my post bothered you so much.

[TayTay]

113. It didn't bother me as much as make me feel pity

It seems as if some people live in an ever shrinking circle of fear where enemies patrol the outside of a shrinking bubble. This is paranoia, not a lively exchange of different ideas in an open forum.

I feel sorry for those who feel this way. It is a sad and limiting way to feel.

Actual free speech involves engaging others and the possibility that minds, including one's own, might be changed by open debate. Feeling threatened or faking martyrdom because someone asked a question or challenged an established view is not free speech. It is fear masquerading as support for free speech.

Why did you respond to my post? What bothered you about it so much?

[Mystayya]

121. There is no need to feel any pity for me.

I am quite fine, thank you.

I don't know who your post is to, as it doesn't describe me at all, so I will leave you to your ramblings.

[TayTay]

136. You can't answer the question or engage in conversation

so it's time to quit.

I indeed do understand how you can't see yourself in this.

That is indeed to be pitied.

[Mystayya]

143. You are not interested in any conversation. You made that clear.

Instead you just resorted to snark and insults. I refused to play your silly and childish little game and now you are mad. Oh well.

[TayTay]

147. I answered your questions and asked you to answer mine

You instead said you would quit.

And you still haven't answered my question.

Where is the free and open debate if one side refuses to discuss the very thing under debate.

What are you afraid of here?

[cui bono]

241. You end all possibility of conversation when you start it by saying you pity the other person.

:eyes:

[defendandprotect]

256. Ask yourself why you need to try to STOP other people from expressing their

concerns/beliefs/opinions on a democratic forum!!!

This is an attempt at censorship --

What's that old saying - "Free speech isn't about the listener, it's about the speaker"

Either you support it or you don't . . .

[Mystayya]

277. I wasn't trying to stop the poster from speaking

He was obviously very upset that I chose to state my views on an issue and came in swinging. I simply stated that I think he should ask himself why my views on a political issue caused him to react that way. We've lost a lot of civility when it comes to speaking about political and societal issues lately.

[cui bono]

240. The OP clearly stated, in Bush-like fashion, "You can either get behind him or...

get out of the fuckin' way."

All of the apologists try to stop people from criticizing Obama. It's pretty freaky behavior from a group of people that is supposed to favor critical thinking and informative discussion.

[defendandprotect]

120. The "shut up" and "Un" group ....

out together trying to censor comment and free speech --- AGAIN!!

[Ken Burch]

204. And they still don't get it that President Obama doesn't WANT progressives silenced.

They aren't on his side when they try to silence people. And they have no greater claim to be pro-Obama than anyone else.

[defendandprotect]

257. That's an EXCELLENT point . . . !!!

[Raine]

17. On point! nt

[Phx_Dem]

18. Thank you, and, way to represent.

:fistbump:

[blueknight]

19. i dont agree at all

i worked my ass off in this election, in a very red state, i might add. i worked for CHANGE. where is it at? maybe i missed something. we are still at war, the criminal republicans are still free, enjoying life, counting their money they stole. and they will remain free. we are caving to the MINORITY on health care. meanwhile, our presidents popularity continues to nose dive. pelosi is the most GUTLESS politician in my lifetime. i could go on and on, but im getting depressed

[Name removed]

25. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Name removed]

31. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Name removed]

35. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Name removed]

42. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[hfojvt]

40. see what happens to our grand coalition

you responded predictably to an attack. You attacked back. So it has always been as Jay Gould brags 'I can hire half the working class to kill the other half.' Heck, we will beat the crap out of each other for free. Why should he even bother to pay?

[CAG]

54. and of course is we had a Kucinich/Rangel administration we would

have moved 150,000 troops out of iraq and afghanistan, we would have single payer, we would have Darth Cheney and Alberto in shackles, we would have appropriate regulation of big business, we would have cured global warming, and we would have all of america's childrens farts smelling like lilac breeze lysol air freshener spray, all in a few short months.
Good luck with that Kucinich ticket in 2012.

[hfojvt]

61. and you still want to fight me

Why? Why is it necessary for you to think I am a fucking moron just because I may be a little bit to the left of you? (Not that there are very many people on this board that I can say THAT about, I being the board's conservadem.)

Except for the fact that Kucinich could never be elected, I think that a Kucinich administration would be as much better than an Obama administration as an Obama administration is better than a McCain administration. If we had more Kucinichs and Baldwins in Congress and less Liebermans, Kohls, Boswells, and Skeltons, that our country would be that much better than it is now and than it would be if we had less Talents, Brownbacks, Colemans, and Grassleys.

Just don't give me five cents back and pretend like I have gotten a lot of change on a $10,000 purchase. Considering our victories in 2006 and 2008 and the scale thereof, we don't seem to have gotten much of a return. Just because I am pushing and shouting for more, does not mean we are suddenly not on the same side.

[Ken Burch]

174. Democratic administrations only do progressive stuff in the first two years

After that, they just turn right wing and wither down to nothing.

That's why the "just wait" thing doesn't work.

[hfojvt]

38. that's ridiculous

Don't care about anybody but yourself? You are talking to somebody who was complaining about the war. Somebody who cares about Iraqi and Afghan civilians. He/she is certainly not just out for themself.

There are plenty of things that Obama has done wrong. For one thing, he stole a Democratic Senator from us in Kansas. For another, it seems to be SSDD in Iraq and Afghanistan.

Finally, it doesn't really do any good to tell your allies to fuck off. We need all the allies we can get if we are gonna beat the Republicans. That includes some people who are gonna grumble or have annoying opinions. If we start kicking all those people out, or telling them to fuck off, then it is gonna eventually be you and me against the world, and I really don't like those odds at all.

[Chef Eric]

83. I agree that Obama's Dept. of Justice has been almost worthless so far...

Let's see what happens next week when Obama speaks on health care.

[avaistheone1]

214. So far Obama kept the same vile people that Bush had in the Justice Dept.

[LooseWilly]

255. Pelosi isn't being gutless.

She's joined with the progressive caucus to guarantee no bill without a public option will make it through the House.

As for the rest of your statements... I recommend hard liquor. I'm out of rum and moving on to the absinthe...

[defendandprotect]

258. Day after '06 election, she is captured on video saying, Dems were elected to end the wars . .!!!

After that she/Reid set out to refund them for . . .. 2 years 8 months . . .

but who's counting!!!

How many lives lost in that time?

And how about the bankrupting of our Treasury?

We need healthcare not warfare --

and certainly not welfare for capitalism --

[LooseWilly]

264. Oh sure, bring up facts outside narrowly defined period I was referring to...

Ok, technically, I said "is not being gutless" which is a present progressive tense, and therefore doesn't refer to the past. I was really only speaking about her behavior with regards to the Health Care fight currently being considered.

Sure... some action to end the wars, impeach, impose some accountability to go with Wall Street bailouts... yeah, that would've been nice. Gutful even. A fight would've been somewhat appreciated, especially as the Congress didn't seem likely to be able to get much of anything else accomplished while W held the veto/signing statement pen. No arguments from me. (Well, I think my opinion about Afghanistan might be at least a little at odds with yours... but we'll discuss that another time, sir.)

On the point of standing with the progressive caucus on the public option requirement... specifically that one point... would you not agree that Pelosi is not being gutless?

I'm going to have another half-shot of absinthe while you think it over.

[defendandprotect]

265. Since you asked so nicely . . . Yes!

At the least I'll say it's encouraging ---

but, remember, you can only really be betrayed by those closest to you.

Read today about some kind of a deal to hold the hordes in the Dem House at bay by

telling them public option going forward and then shifting in "reconciliation" in Senate????

Reid still looks like GOP lite --!! Not much hope there!!


Briefly on Afghanistan ... the alleged hijackers were Saudis --
US/CIA created the Taliban/Al Qaeda -- we went into Afghanistan six months before the
Russians came in -- "in order to bait the Russians in . . . in hopes of giving them a
Vietnam-type experience" --- !!!

We were funding the Taliban -- $124 million in the year before 9/11 -- and gave then tens
of millions in just the month before 9/11 --

Also, US helped create the Islamic Fundy movement in ME -- WE were printing those horrific
religious books -- millions of dollars worth -- and shipping them in.

If you're interested to the facts on this which come from the Carter Administration/
Zbigniew Brzezinski --

Think of how often religion has been used to co-opt other nations -- a form of invasion.
And, think of how often religion has served the purpose of a land mine when people try to
come together!

[LooseWilly]

274. I can't say I don't share your gloom about the prospects in reconciliation.

I don't know enough about the process of reconciliation to have any concrete words/ideas to express my misgivings... but it feels like one of those canyons just made for a cinematic ambush.

Reid just seems afraid of a real legislative fight. I don't have anything against him... I just don't have anything for him either.


As for Afghanistan, that's where bin Laden was. There was a sort of national pride requirement to go after him. The Taliban is also pretty Allah-damned awful (at least, my Allah, if I had one, would think so). And, of course, once we went in and broke it, and especially in retrospective light of all our old and ignored entanglements dating back to the Soviet invasion... some investment in nation building seemed appropriate.
Of course, the fiasco that was the invasion of Iraq... the consequent insurgencies... the training grounds for insurgents... the recruitment utility... the blatant demonstration of chinks in the armor of American Imperialistic Power... not to mention the colossal waste of time... all combined to waste the potential opportunity of some in good faith nation building in Afghanistan after the route of the Taliban (and the escape of bin Laden... the whole fucking point of the invasion).

So, back then, I had no real opposition to the Afghanistan campaigns... now, it's hard to escape the futility and stupidity of the continuing fiasco. It would be cheapest to just buy off some key elements of the Taliban (preferably nationalists who are not completely devoted to the oppression of women) and provide some aid monies in exchange for some bases for intelligence services in order to monitor for al Qaeda or such like organizations re-establishing themselves.

Of course, If I were an al Qaeda leader, I'd just move my shit to Somalia... which would then leave the US hemorrhaging money to fight the Taliban for control of Afghanistan... leaving al Qaeda relatively free to re-build.

That said... yeah, I'm not sure that I'd call myself a hard sell for bailing on Afghanistan... I just can't help but feel like there are an awful lot of Afghans who've been even more fucked over by W's staggering incompetence than we here in the US... which is saying something.

[defendandprotect]

284. Thanks for the reply . . .

You do understand that the Bush family and the bin Laden's are very close?

When you talk about the Taliban . . . you have to be thinking DRUGS . . . the Taliban had
been reducing the drug production until our invasion -- after that it returned to peak
production. What do you think that tells you about our reasons for being there?

And, after all these years, we've had absolutely no success in aiding women and children there?
Isn't that rather hard to believe?

We seem to generally agree on getting out of Afghanistan and Iraq . . .
but it is obvious that when the corporate press something over and again -- like WMD, like
"terrarists" that's it's difficult to beat that propaganda.

Again -- US/CIA created Taliban and Al Qaeda - financed it thru ISI Pakistan --

How many Americans still think that Russia simply decided to invade Afghanistan with no
provocation from us?

Here's some info if you feel like looking at it -- including the information about our creating
the religious Muslim crazies who exist now .... it was done for our benefit.

--------------------------------

The CIA's Intervention in Afghanistan
Interview with Zbigniew Brzezinski,
President Jimmy Carter's National Security Adviser

Le Nouvel Observateur, Paris, 15-21 January 1998

Question: The former director of the CIA, Robert Gates, stated in his memoirs <"From the Shadows">, that American intelligence services began to aid the Mujahadeen in Afghanistan 6 months before the Soviet intervention. In this period you were the national security adviser to President Carter. You therefore played a role in this affair. Is that correct?

Brzezinski: Yes. According to the official version of history, CIA aid to the Mujahadeen began during 1980, that is to say, after the Soviet army invaded Afghanistan, 24 Dec 1979. But the reality, secretly guarded until now, is completely otherwise Indeed, it was July 3, 1979 that President Carter signed the first directive for secret aid to the opponents of the pro-Soviet regime in Kabul. And that very day, I wrote a note to the president in which I explained to him that in my opinion this aid was going to induce a Soviet military intervention.

Q: Despite this risk, you were an advocate of this covert action. But perhaps you yourself desired this Soviet entry into war and looked to provoke it?

B: It isn't quite that. We didn't push the Russians to intervene, but we knowingly increased the probability that they would.

Q: When the Soviets justified their intervention by asserting that they intended to fight against a secret involvement of the United States in Afghanistan, people didn't believe them. However, there was a basis of truth. You don't regret anything today?

Q: Regret what? That secret operation was an excellent idea. It had the effect of drawing the Russians into the Afghan trap and you want me to regret it? The day that the Soviets officially crossed the border, I wrote to President Carter. We now have the opportunity of giving to the USSR its Vietnam war. Indeed, for almost 10 years, Moscow had to carry on a war unsupportable by the government, a conflict that brought about the demoralization and finally the breakup of the Soviet empire.

Q: And neither do you regret having supported the Islamic fundamentalism, having given arms and advice to future terrorists?

Q: What is most important to the history of the world? The Taliban or the collapse of the Soviet empire? Some stirred-up Moslems or the liberation of Central Europe and the end of the cold war?

http://www.takeoverworld.info/brzezinski_interview_shor...


The US spent $100's of millions shooting down Soviet helicopters yet didn't spend a penny helping Afghanis rebuild their infrastructure and institutions.

They also spent millions producing jihad preaching, fundamentalist textbooks and shipping them off to Afghanistan. These were the same text books the Western media discussed in shocked tones and told their audiences were used by fundamentalist teachers to brainwash their charges and to inculcate in young Afghanis a jihad mindset, hatred of foreigners and non-Muslims etc.

----------------------------

Have you heard about the Afghan Jihad schoolbook scandal?

Or perhaps I should say, "Have you heard about the Afghan Jihad schoolbook scandal that's waiting to happen?"

Because it has been almost unreported in the Western media that the US government shipped, and continues to ship, millions of Islamist textbooks into Afghanistan.

Only one English-speaking newspaper we could find has investigated this issue: the Washington Post. The story appeared March 23rd.

Washington Post investigators report that during the past twenty years the US has spent millions of dollars producing fanatical schoolbooks, which were then distributed in Afghanistan.

"The primers, which were filled with talk of jihad and featured drawings of guns, bullets, soldiers and mines, have served since then as the Afghan school system's core curriculum. Even the Taliban used the American-produced books..." -- Washington Post, 23 March 2002 (1)

According to the Post the U.S. is now "...wrestling with the unintended consequences of its successful strategy of stirring Islamic fervor to fight communism."

So the books made up the core curriculum in Afghan schools. And what were the unintended consequences? The Post reports that according to unnamed officials the schoolbooks "steeped a generation in violence."

How could this result have been unintended? Did they expect that giving fundamentalist schoolbooks to schoolchildren would make them moderate Muslims?

Nobody with normal intelligence could expect to distribute millions of violent Islamist schoolbooks without influencing school children towards violent Islamism. Therefore one would assume that the unnamed US officials who, we are told, are distressed at these "unintended consequences" must previously have been unaware of the Islamist content of the schoolbooks.

But surely someone was aware. The US government can't write, edit, print and ship millions of violent, Muslim fundamentalist primers into Afghanistan without high officials in the US government approving those primers.

http://www.tenc.net/articles/jared/jihad.htm



Best wishes -- D&P

---------------

[sandnsea]

21. Rare voice of reason and sanity

Thanks so much for the post. :)

[GivePeaceAchance]

23. Exactly the expectations have to be of ourselves. We're all a Democratic resistance here....

Figuratively speaking, not literally.

[FLyellowdog]

24. Thanks. I needed that. n/t

[Becky72]

26. "Obama is doing his best"

Perhaps.

[robo50]

228. I am SURE you could do better! Yeah! n/t

[Jennicut]

27. I am not giving up on Obama...its WAY too early in the game for that.

[defendandprotect]

122. Well, that's what we're all asking for, obviously . . .!!!

No one is "giving up" -- we all continue to hope.

What we are making clear is what is happening NOW -- and what isn't happening NOW --

There's no reason that we should still be in Afghanistan or Iraq -- these are

immoral "illegal" wars -- bankrupting our Treasury.

In fact, we elected the Dems in '06 to end the wars --

See the Pelosi video on that the day after confirming they were elected ....

'TO END THE WARS' . . . !!!
********************


Our nation and citizens are being greatly harmed by a lack of national health care --

something every other nation has been doing for decades --

Let's stop pretending we are reinventing the wheel --

MEDICARE IS UP AND RUNNING AND READY TO GO --

[quiet.american]

30. I've never said this before -- "F'in A!" nt

[peoli]

32. Thank you.

[greenbird]

33. K&R

[damntexdem]

37. Just say 'no.'

Now, why does that sound familiar?

[scheming daemons]

43. Other than a Nance Greggs opus... this is the best post on DU in weeks

Awesome.

[Clio the Leo]

44. Yay! I finally get to recommend something! NT

[defendandprotect]

123. Aside from this thread . . .

WOW . . . that tells a lot about you!!!

Holy cow!!

[slay]

45. Um - NO. You can not tell me what to do - or censor me - or force me to believe like you

Sorry - Never.Gonna.Happen. It's called free speech - and concern that Obama is heading us down the wrong path. Worship him all you want - but some of us will keep questioning him when we feel he is headed the wrong way, and you know what - there is NOTHING you can do to stop us.

[Teaser]

51. actually, I can tell you what to do.

I do it all the time. And usually, you love it.

[slay]

53. You can try, but that doesn't mean I will

don't really understand what you mean by the rest of what you wrote but that's ok... :shrug:

[defendandprotect]

125. You mean the "You only want a Pony!" argument hasn't stopped you...!!!!

Like your post -- keep fighting for free speech --

Like the Teddy Kennedy pic --

:)

[slay]

133. Yeah I think it was the "Just Stop" command that triggered my rabid free speech response

I'm kind of shocked this thread has 95 rec's. I guess we know now that at least 95 people here want to just tow the Dem party line no matter what - and probably more than that cause I un-rec'd this thread - only like the third time I have ever un-rec'd anything. I just can not abide censorship. Thanks for the support. :hug:

[Kaylee]

47. Hear, hear! Thank you!

I loved what Rachel Maddow had to say about the history of health reform in this country. It's been a long, hard slog and no one said it would be easy. But he just might pull off the impossible.

K & R for reality.

[Number23]

49. This is the first OP I have rec'd in over a damned week, maybe even closer to two

Nobody here has the answers. Nobody here has to shoulder the weight Obama is carrying. We can all sit at the computer and bitch, and talk about how we donated money or handed out buttons or whatever. The fact is, when the shit hits the fan and the political bullets fly in this war, Obama is our guy in the trenches. Let's make sure we have his back.

Thank you. Thank you, thank you. THANK YOU.

[defendandprotect]

126. Wow . . .!!

Do you really understand what you're revealing about yourself when you say that???

Holy cow!!

[Number23]

276. I have the distinct impression that even if I knew what you were babbling about

I still wouldn't give a shit.

[CakeGrrl]

50. K/R - well said.

[Hekate]

52. KnR. Thumbsup

:thumbsup:

[Odin2005]

55. K&R. I'm sick of the fucking whineyism.

Quit whining and be the change you want to see in the world.

"I want to do that, now come and make me do it" -FDR

[AuntPatsy]

57. Thank you..

[jgraz]

59. In other words, shut up and do what you're told.

Thanks, I'll pass.

[Toasterlad]

93. Jawhol!

:thumbsup:

[Leftist Agitator]

60. August?

[TwilightGardener]

62. Gave you a rec--thanks.

[ipaint]

65. Naive. Written as if the move over 3 decades to the center right by democrats

has taught us nothing.

[defendandprotect]

127. As if we can ignore who owns these elected officials -- and the candidates we're offered -- !!!

These people have a very large rug they sweep reality under, evidently!!!

[Fire1]

290. Then why vote? n/t

[DrZeeLit]

66. Thank goodness for a Voice of Reason. It's only been 9 months... at this point,

when 9/11 happened in the new admin.... "they" don't even blame Bush for it.

So, yeah... everybody needs to take a Chill Pill.


on edit: in case anybody gets snarky.... let me say right now... I certainly believe 9/11 happened on Bush's watch. I'm just saying "they" don't. And so 9 months is not a true barometer of what any president can and can't do.

[defendandprotect]

128. It's unbeatable when "it's only been__fill in the blank" is combined with "you want a pony!" . . .

:blush:

[QC]

159. Don't forget the one about turning a lage ship around.

That one was ripped through this place like typhoid through a 19th century tenement block.

[rox63]

67. Thank you!!!

I wish I could rec this post multiple times. I've wanted to post a rant like this for a while. Thanks for doing it for me. :hi:

[bluescribbler]

68. A effing men

I've lived through a lot of Presidents, (Truman was the first, but I was too young to know anything), and I can honestly say that there's never been a President,or a politician of any stripe, with whom I've been in 100% agreement. But that won't stop me from supporting the ones I think are better than the rest. President Obama, (I still love saying that), is a whole lot better than most. I've got his back, because I believe that he has mine.

[BumRushDaShow]

Your subject line were the words out of my mouth!

:applause:

(but I only go back as far as Kennedy, and as a toddler...lol)

[dionysus]

69. well said.

:thumbsup:

[watercolors]

75. Thank you for post, thought DU was brain dead!

nt

[scheming daemons]

89. No... just a small.. but VERY vocal minority

[NightHawk63]

76. K & R (nt)

[OwnedByFerrets]

77. Nope

[NoSheep]

78. There should be a forum for Bitchers

[scheming daemons]

88. There are several:

They just aren't part of DemocraticUnderground.com.

[NoSheep]

152. Ha!

[QC]

279. It's only fair, since all the other fora are cheerleader camps now. n/t

[graywarrior]

80. Well said.

[TankLV]

84. One of the few times I hit the "unrecommend" button...

IGNORE US AT YOUR PERIL!!!

and you'll have ONLY yourself to blame!!!

but go ahead, marginalize and SCOLD us all - by all means - just like you all did during the PRIMARIES - that'll change our minds - NOT!

For the good of the country, I HOPE YOU'RE RIGHT and that Obama WILL support AT LEAST the "Public Option" as a MINIMUM.

but I won't hold my BREATH - he's FAILED on SO MANY OTHER FUCKING IMPORTANT ISSUES, from ILLEGAL SPYING, to INCREASING the fucking bush*WAR!!!

[Richd506]

86. I agree wholeheartedly

Obama is not perfect but he's damn well better than McCain would have been and it doesn't help making his job any more difficult. I want single payer but I'm not going to get it if I act irrationally.

[kenfrequed]

115. Actually

History has shown that there has to be some 'acting out,' protesting, demonstrating, shouting, and general agitating to get anything big done politically or socially.

If you want to get along and be peaceful and calm and act perfectly nice all the time then the aggressive conservative elements will do what they always do. They will eat you.

Think of the victories of the labor movement and the new deal? Without a vigorous, active, agitated and engaged left wing most of those things would not have happened. And this isn't even bringing up the fought for, bled for, and died for victories that occurred before FDR: Child labor, 40 hour work week, wage protection. None could possibly have been accomplished without making noise.

Or how about the civil rights movement, now you can argue that its goal was peaceful demonstration, but it was demonstration and civil disobediance. Pacifism but not passivism.

[defendandprotect]

129. I'll just add, anyone who doesn't speak against the corporate-DLC only wants more of the same!!

[DevonRex]

90. I came back this morning specifically for this post. Thank you.

It's good to see that some people haven't gone completely out of their minds. Until there's a bill, I'm not giving up. Even then, if it doesn't contain a public option, it was written by Congress, not Obama.

If they send him a bill with a public option he'll sign it. If not, he can't veto it. I don't think we can take much longer of this hysteria.

[Toasterlad]

91. Welcome To Today's Lesson in Misunderstanding Democracy, Brought to You By the DLC

Obama works for ME. I don't work for HIM. I have every right to judge his performance and express my dissatisfaction if I find him lacking...in fact, that's my fucking JOB as a member of a democracy.

If people like you would pull your head out of Obama's ass long enough to realize that there are serious problems in this country that will not be solved until we all demand change, we might actually be able to get something done. As it is, people like you are responsible for the status quo.

You DO realize that there is absolutely no difference between you and the 25% sheep that supported Bush right til the end, right? I mean, you GET that, right?

[scentopine]

96. Perfect reply - we are treated like employees by our...

corporate proxy style government. We can be dismissed.

Look at the last three republican presidents and how they took care of their "base". They got so much done that in comparison at the rate this new administration is moving, at the end of 4 years the best we will be able to say is "at least he isn't bush".

Eventually republicans will regain control and they will dispense with the appearance of bi-partisanship and ram rod every fucking shit bill through congress and exec branch.

That is why neo-dem "centrists" are so dangerous. They have no moral center anchoring them. Its all a game in the free market and people are things to be bought and sold,, by insurance companies for example. Left up to DLC they will trade your health care policy like banks trade mortgages. Just like carbon trading bullshit. Jesus - how in the hell are you going to regulate this crap?

With Bush you knew you were getting shit and he didn't disappoint. With Dems, they say one thing and do another. Its good cop, bad cop.

You are dead right about DLC. And its obvious the impact they are having.

2010 mid-terms will be interesting as Rahm believes he can coast through as long as nothing changes.

[dana_b]

111. and your reply as well

very spot on. Especially this "That is why neo-dem "centrists" are so dangerous. They have no moral center anchoring them. Its all a game in the free market and people are things to be bought and sold,, by insurance companies for example. Left up to DLC they will trade your health care policy like banks trade mortgages. Just like carbon trading bullshit. Jesus - how in the hell are you going to regulate this crap?"

With the far righties, you know what you're getting. the centrist, corporate Dems pander to the left and then drop them like a hot potato when they don't fit their purpose.

Oh, and carbon trading is COMPLETE B.S.! The corporations are probably laughing their asses off on that one.

[Mystayya]

99. Can I adopt you????

[jgraz]

104. Sad, isn't it?

And no, they don't get it. But they will. The crash is gonna be ugly.

[muffin1]

112. Beautiful...thank you.

:thumbsup:

[defendandprotect]

130. So true . . .

evidently, they find nothing wrong with corporate-DLC -- !!!

Frightening!!

Meanwhile, any number of them are saying they haven't "recommended" a thread in weeks!!!

That also gives a big clue as to their lack of thought --

[slay]

134. Beautiful!

Of course you are 100% correct. I never knew we had this many "tow the party line no matter what" people here. Interesting. Great post though. Wish I could recommend just your post and not this thread. Doh.

[Kermitt Gribble]

135. Excellent post! n/t

[tbyg52]

207. Bravo!

:patriot:

[cui bono]

242. Exactly. He actually channeled Bush in that OP. n/t

[scentopine]

94. Nonsense. He's not supporting his base. Unless they are republicans. -nt

[frylock]

100. honestly, I think we should just trust our president in every decision that he makes..

and we should just support that, you know, and be faithful in what happens.

[jgraz]

103. Sadly, most of the respondents to this thread think you're serious

And they're nodding their heads in agreement. (That what that rattling sound is)

[frylock]

106. it's quite a din, isn't it?

[jgraz]

107. To be fair, part of the noise is me doing this

:banghead:


rattle, rattle

[frylock]

109. lulz!

[dana_b]

110. oh baby baby!! n/t

[defendandprotect]

131. Did you leave out the "sarcasm" sign, I hope -- ???

I'm trusting that no one could be that naive . . . right?

[frylock]

140. leave britney alone!!!

[defendandprotect]

179. OK -- got it~!

[defendandprotect]

114. Unfortunately, when Obama elopes into the White House with the DLC . . .

and those who created this financial mess, what's going to happen becomes pretty obvious.

We can hope otherwise --

What is this, the 50th thread to try to stop comment on the issues?

You believe in a very fragile democracy, evidently.

[Deep13]

117. "...fighting the impossible battle..."

So you've given up too, then.

[zalinda]

124. No, he hasn't done his best, or...........

if that's his best, it's not good enough.

From the very beginning of the health care debate, he should have gotten out in front of it. He should have said what his goals are and the people would have gotten behind him and pushed their reps to get it for them. Instead, he has leaked so many contradictory tidbits out of the White House, no one knows where he stands concerning health care reform. How can you get behind a phantom? How can you grab onto nothingness? It doesn't seem like he can herd a bunch of sheep, let alone a bunch of cats.

zalinda

[defendandprotect]

132. We have to end Campaign Finance BRIBERY.... and "pre-ownership" of candidates . . .!!!

[Kermitt Gribble]

137. This is one of the worst posts I've ever seen here.

"The problem isn't with him, it's with your expectations" - so, we're supposed to have low expectaions?? Or is it we should not expect him to represent US??

Obama should have our back, not the other way around.

[slay]

149. +1

The pro-censorship part telling us to JUST STOP is horrible and something I never expected a member of this board to TELL others to do. Well, I'm not stopping.

[QC]

160. It's a great post, actually,

in that it perfectly represents what this place has become.

[defendandprotect]

259. Was DU ever a truly progressive/liberal forum?

I find it hard to believe with the DLC influence here --

and presumably they would also be trying to co-opt the forum . . . ???

Would $$ do it??

:evilgrin:

[QC]

266. Not really, but it was never this right wing until recently.

I just come as a voyeur now, rather than a student, as was once the case. It's become kind of like watching a whole series of car wrecks.

[defendandprotect]

268. I gather a lot of wisdom was lost . . .

too bad --

where did they all go to?

Posting elsewhere?

[QC]

269. Some drifted away and others were hounded off the board

by newly arrived zealots during the last campaign.

Ironically, many of those who did the worst of the hounding apparently got bored and drifted away themselves, after wrecking the place.

There used to be a real sense of community here. I'll never forget this place on 9/11, how the people here came together and tried to comfort one another. That seems like a very long time ago.

[defendandprotect]

270. Thank you --

[LynneSin]

138. BTW, here's my bold prediction of who the dems will nominate in 2012......

[defendandprotect]

260. No crown . . . ???

[Raineyb]

141. So, people aren't supposed to express their opinion? Then what the fuck is a message board for?

So far this is the stupidest OP of the day. But then, the day's still young.

[kestrel91316]

142. Anybody who calls Obama a failure this early in his first term has tipped their hand

and shown that they are in fact a RW troll. Period.

[Ken Burch]

173. Bullshit. And you're not entitled to question people's loyalty to this party

n/t.

[kestrel91316]

195. Yes I am. As are we all. He has been in office slightly more than

6 months. After the worst, most fucked up Republican-caused mess since the Great Depression.

Unless you're 16, it's not the immaturity/instant gratification thing, it's freeperism.

[Ken Burch]

203. Progressives get that we're in a mess. The difference between us and you is

that we know that the only way to get out of that mess is to undo everything the right did as quickly as possible, because nothing worthwhile ever happens in a Democratic administration after about the second year. It always gets watered-down to nothing after that. After 2010, we all know we're going to see this admin reduced to where LBJ was after the 1966 congressional legislation.

And it's not about calling President Obama a failure. It's about wanting him to succeed. The only way he can is for activists to fight for change from below constantly. Shutting up and leaving it to the back room boys can NEVER work. Nothing progressive ever happened from a backroom deal.

[bkkyosemite]

182. That is BS.

[cui bono]

243. Being critical is not calling him a failure. Anyone who tells critics to shut up and go away

is a Bushie in Democratic clothing. It's the same fucking thing.

[defendandprotect]

261. Rather, it is that kind of line ....

which should remind us of how the right wing projects it's own insanities onto others!

Period!

[McCamy Taylor]

144. Obama is "our guy." Therefore, he needs to listen to what we have to say.

Now, I do not necessarily believe what KO said last night--but if Obama comes out and says the same thing himself, then I will know that he is weak and spineless and has capitulated to medical industry. And a weak, spineless leader can not bring change.

[defendandprotect]

262. Looks like Baucus$$$ and Grassley are running/ruining the health care talks . . .

we need to break that up !!!

[ZombieHorde]

145. "The problem isn't with him, it's with your expectations."

When an elected official does not act in accordance with one's expectations, people should say something.

"Obama is doing his best, and is fighting the impossible battle against the very soul of this country, greed."

If the battle is impossible, perhaps he should move onto something else, preferably something not in the realm of the supernatural, such as souls.

"Nobody here has the answers."

To what question?

"The fact is, when the shit hits the fan and the political bullets fly in this war, Obama is our guy in the trenches. Let's make sure we have his back."

Either President Obama has had time to prove himself to us, or he has not had time to prove himself to us. Which is it?

[Hutzpa]

150. Maybe you will be better off with a Republican President n/t

[ZombieHorde]

151. Why do you think President Obama is a Republican in disguise? nt

[Hutzpa]

153. Maybe I miss read your comment

but sounds like you are justifying the whining made by some on Obama...Yes? No?

[ZombieHorde]

156. I think you did misread my post because my post made no mention of Republicans.

I claimed people should be vocal about politics, this is not an endorsement of the Republican party.

I claimed the OP contains a contradiction, this is not an endorsement of the Republican party.

I pointed out two lines in the OP which were confusing to me, this is not an endorsement of the Republican party.

[Hutzpa]

157. No harm done n/t

[frylock]

158. wrong answer

[defendandprotect]

263. Maybe we'd be better off with Howard Dean . . . ??????

[QC]

271. Shhhh! You're not supposed to mess up that carefully designed false dilemma.

It has to be Obama or The Moldering Corpse of Pol Pot.

There can be no other alternatives, or else the whole "argument" falls apart.

[defendandprotect]

272. Ok . . .

as long as I know I'm not suffering the effects of the false dilemma alone!

:crazy:

Love your summation ... !!

[QC]

273. Thanks! n/t

[Sheepshank]

163. Amazing..

..what is NOT being accomplished with this many people XXXXXXXXXXXXXX who voted Dem, while only XXX many people voted Rep. The infighting, the sitting on collective asses and waiting for the results of what we want to see happen. The philosophizing, and demoralizing that does nothing but undercut and undermine the audacity of hope.

How can XXX Reps pull the kind of crap they've been pulling? WE...not Obama, WE are letting it happen. Obama can certainly lead, but all those who are supposed to be behind him, instead are milling about waiting for the sky to fall. Collectively we are failing to bring strong intent, strong messages to our congressmen and senators, to our town mayors, and state representatives. We have failed to offer a collective, unified support to hold it all together. How freaking embarrassing that Obama has to deal with Reps that bash him from every angle and then look to "home" for support and see the kind of crap that goes on at "home". Splintered is the terms I would use. The Dems are splintered and are weak because of it.

I am not ready to let any of it go after only 8 months of office. I'm not ready to drink the kool aid being passed around by the trolls. The game plan hasn't been played out. I won't be the one screeching on the City corner and wailing that things are not happening in the right way because they are not happening the way I would want them to happen.

Good for the OP since the words were fighting words, not whiny words. Two very different ends of the spectrum. Whine implies lack of action...not even enough action to shoot ones self in the foot. That was certainly NOT the tone of the OP.

[Meshuga]

164. Stop whining about other people's whining

I agree with you that we don't have a clue of what is going to happen (until it happens) but it is nice to see the complaints now that we can get our voices heard and try to influence the administration than complain when it is too late to complain.

I hope Obama proves the so called "whiners" wrong but for now they are doing a great thing which is expressing their concerns and outrage because there is a possibility that what they worked so hard for last year (trying to get Obama elected to bring legitimate change) might be going down the tubes.

So the noise is good and the threats are good too and I hope this administration is aware that there is going to be a lot of people who will feel betrayed if the president just caves in without putting much of a fight.

I will vote for Obama in 2012 without a doubt (unless he fucks up royally -- which is unlikely) but he might be in trouble if he thinks he can dismiss progressives while appeasing to the nutty on the right. There are a lot of people who are going to be turned off and not be willing to help him in 2012. It is said but that's the reality.

[Fire1]

166. I say it all the time. Don't hate the player. Hate the game. n/t

[blue neen]

168. Amen.

A-frigging-men. :toast:

[Ken Burch]

169. We are waiting for this administration to "fight every greedy, ignorant, special interest bastard"

Rahm just keeps giving in to all of them and dissing the people on OUR side.

[bvar22]

180. "Centrism"...because its so EASY!

You don't have to STAND for ANYTHING, and get to insult those who do! :party:

Centrism...for anyone who is half-Republican.


I don't have to study ISSUES!
I'm a Centrist!
Whatever is in the middle is good enough for me!
:dunce:

[kjackson227]

175. Wow! What a great post!

K&R

[bkkyosemite]

181. I say it as I see it and I'm 63 whinner.

[valerief]

184. I haven't done any Obama-bashing, but your post begs a question.

How do you know Obama is doing his best, as you say?

[depakid]

186. Seems to me the OP needs to grow up and stop throwing tantrums and making excuses

[katty]

187. yes, some DO need to grow up and accept REALITY--Obama

did not run as a fanboy for the DLC--he was anti-DLC and change, change, change!

[freddie mertz]

188. The question is, rather, does Obama have OUR back?

Not to mention the "back" of the American people.

Will it be what is best for America or what is best for lobbyists and health care corporations.

The jury is still out, but it looks like we will know soon.

[lucky leftie]

190. Can you give specifics?

What exactly has the president done to inspire your confidence? What has he said that suggests he is committed to meaningful reform? Why not try countering the pessimism with facts rather than berating others and telling them how they should feel?

[Texasbacksass]

191. I couldn't agree with you more

All anybody, especially anybody on the left, has to do, is imagine these last past eight months if mickey mccain and his sidekick sarah palindrone had been elected.

[cui bono]

245. Um, no, we can also imagine these past eight months with president that led strongly and

acted on his campaign promises.

[Autonomy]

192. I'm going to go ahead and rec this post

not because of the "stop bitching" remark, but because it hits the nail on the head when it says,

"Nobody here has the answers. Nobody here has to shoulder the weight Obama is carrying. We can all sit at the computer and bitch, and talk about how we donated money or handed out buttons or whatever. The fact is, when the shit hits the fan and the political bullets fly in this war, Obama is our guy in the trenches. Let's make sure we have his back."

BOOM. Naaaailed it.

[jberryhill]

193. "You don't have a damn clue what is going to happen until it happens"

Correct.

Now, explain to me this "Organizing for America" thing.

Good thing I didn't waste my time with that since, as you note, this is a spectator event.

You are correct - I don't have a damn clue what's going to happen, and am certainly not going to volunteer to work for "whatever".

[treestar]

197. Bravo, and Obama is the one to have in the trenches now

He is the right person for the job at this time.

He's not going to carry out a left wing vindictive agenda. We've always known that.

[frylock]

198. left wing vindictive agenda?!!

the LWVA? bwahahaha... FAIL.

[nvme]

201. stop drinking rush's koolaide

Vindictive my ass. It is trying to correct some of the disparities.

[Amos Moses]

202. He's the right person for Goldman Sachs and United "Health".

[Ken Burch]

205. You just outed yourself as a conservative with that post

It's only people on the right who thing working for progressive social change is "vindictive".

[Amos Moses]

210. It's straight from Limbaugh's playbook.

:puke:

[Ken Burch]

212. And his phrasebook.

n/t.

[Texasbacksass]

218. You need to learn how to spell LIMPBALLS....

....first name....lush

[treestar]

289. Yes, it's vindictive

Bullshit. You're working against all that change by acting stupid.

You are right wing then, trying to backlash so that the conservatives win again. Slowing down that change, at least.

I think it's probably sicker than that though. Reality, you know, reality.

I voted for Kucinich in the primary. But I knew he wouldn't win. And I'm not going to pretend that this country is a country where he is President and whine that Obama is more centrist. And I'm not going to put that day farther off by whining and acting like an idiot because we aren't there NOW.

You Just Stop. You're making us look as bad as teabaggers make the right look. Gawd, even far right wing conservatives don't whine, stamp their feet because Bush didn't take us to war against Iran in his first year. Gotta give them that, they supported Bush - they knew which direction they wanted to go.

[Texasbacksass]

216. Next time you decide to spew a load of shit....bring your shovel

[TokenQueer]

278. FAIL

"left wing vindictive agenda"?

Tell Ron Christie we said hello.

[nvme]

199. Bush

perhaps he should take a lesson from bush. and ram it through. Will we always be democratic pussies? I'm sorry but this is where we have to stop saying what we don't have. And dont be afraid of using what we do have. that is a majority in 2 houses and a democratic president. Every thing else is an excuse. time to kick some of these fuckers in the nutz make them toe the line. This is a time to listen to your base. Cause if we dont do this now it will cost us late in both real dollars and seats in both houses.

[brentspeak]

200. The dumbest thing about your OP is that you have an avatar of Truman

Truman - the ultimate no-nonsense Chief Executive, who would have ordered White House security to quickly escort any and all corporate lobbyists from the premises pronto. That is how a real President "fights the special interests".

Change your avatar to Al From or Evan Bayh or Rahm Emmanuel -- or perhaps a large pile of horse manure. Just don't insult Harry Truman's legacy with your B.S.

[robo50]

229. Was Truman successful in his efforts to get health care for all?

Study your history on that one.

He DID try, he failed. REASON? Southern legislators didn't want hospitals to be racially integrated!!!!!!!!

[Ken Burch]

283. OK...The segregationists killed health care then.

That doesn't mean the "give 'em hell" approach was to blame. And it doesn't mean that we shouldn't stand up to the Right.

[S_E_Fudd]

208. Stop bitching about people bitching!!!

If there are people who believe that Obama is not doing what he was elected to do it is their right to bitch as much as they like..

In fact, seems to me the raison d'etre of a site like this is to bitch...

If you don't like it, just ignore it!

[msallied]

209. I wish I could rec this 5 million times. eom

[Amos Moses]

211. Quit your crying, drama queen.

The idea that he's fighting special interests instead of giving in to them is utter nonsense. If he wants the left to cover his back, he needs to return the favor. Open your fucking eyes, whiner.

[Uzybone]

215. KnR

[hulka38]

217. Better pick up a bayonet and get in the trench instead of handing out balloons and lollypops.

Show us some Chicago, Barack. It's going to be a long, cold winter here if you don't.

[Lydia Leftcoast]

219. I voted for the un-Bush, not for someone who is continuing Bush's policies,

some of which he could undo simply by executive order.

I also voted for someone who wouldn't continue the practices of signing statements and extraordinary rendition.

I voted for a PARTY that has used its minority status as a lame excuse for giving in to every damn thing the Republicans propose. Now it has the whole executive and legislative branches, and it's STILL acting as if it has to pay tribute to the Republicanites?

I reserve the right to gripe under such circumstances.

[Faygo Kid]

220. He needs to fight harder for us. Love him, but more FDR, please.

This post from today is what I'm talkin' about: http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=385x365197

[JuniperLea]

221. By far the funniest part of this is...

Most of the arguments are either over meta issues (who is the asshole who unrec'd my OP?) or fighting over tiny bits of more than half a dozen bills that haven't even seen the light of day yet.

In arguing the minutiae, a lot of sweat is wasted and the bigger picture is lost.

I think far too many of us got used to the stupid arguing during the primary, that spilled over into the general election, and now they are so addicted, they will argue with anyone about anything just to be contrary!

Remember the hand wringing over Obama winning the election? We were all so screwn! Oh noes! He’s gonna loooooooooooose.

Bite me.

[MasonJar]

223. If the progressives are not a squeaky wheel then they will get nothing.

Obama is no progressive; he is surrounded by Rahm and other clearly rightist dems; we will be taken for granted as usual. Why do you think the administration is telling the public option proponents to stop their ads. They do not care if those groups spend money on issues they, the administration, want. They are not being altruistic. They do not want the pressure. NO I will not shut up. I voted for change. I was promised change. I want change. If Obama wanted to be a DLCer, he should have run as one. He did not. That is the rub!!!!!!!!!

[ocd liberal]

227. Exactly!

he knows what he's doing

[Turbineguy]

230. Pffffff!!!!!

Reason.

Who needs it!:sarcasm: :yourock:

[NBachers]

231. Obama's trying to dismantle a worldwide terrorist network that gluts the entire planet

They harvest souls

They live off the slavery of billions

They've stolen trillions of life-years

Their weapon is mass slaughter

Their nourishment is blood

Their currency is fear

They manipulate, murder, and terrorize

They're planet-killers

This is the scale they operate on

They're good at it

Nobody's beyond their reach

We've seen their work

He knows what he's up against

Do you?

[Toasterlad]

250. The Most Hilarious Part Is That You Think Obama's FIGHTING Them.

[QC]

267. It's like those wrestling fans who really believe that The Claw hates The Desert Sheik

and will kill him next time they met in the ring, unless Ivan the Russian Madman can broker a truce between them.

[NBachers]

282. Yeah, have a big laugh over that hilarious part- enjoy the hilarity

[espiral]

232. unrecc'ed

I prefer my threads constructive and well-reasoned.

[cui bono]

233. The bigger problem to me is the worry that the trusters are too complacent.

I really hope that those that believe he is our guy are not just sitting by trusting that he is doing the right thing. I hope they are telling him what they want from him and taking action to get this reform passed. From a lot of the posts I read there is blind faith going on and it makes me feel like people have invested all their trust in him and are just waiting for him to fix it, ala the "chill, I got this" pic.

I haven't seen enough evidence to show me that he is "our guy in the trenches". What has he done to prove that? He didn't allow single payer at the table from the start and he made a backroom deal with big pharma which he then denied. He promised transparency and he does that? Why should I believe he is looking out for our best interests.

As for your comment: "You can either get behind him or get out of the fuckin' way. Go vote for your Nader or Kucinich or whoever and feel better about yourself for "making a statement". The rest of us are going to stay close to reality and back the people that can actually do something."

How very Bushie of you. No critical thinking allowed? No criticism allowed? For your information, I am helping to get health care reform that includes a strong public option accomplished. According to you I should shut up and go away because I dare be critical of Obama based on what I've seen? That is ludicrous. You would have people fighting for health care reform go home just because you don't like what they say about Obama. The fact is that he needs critics to "keep him honest". He needs the progressives to keep him on track as he continuously moves to the right with his attempts at bipartisanship. And he needs to hear from all of us so that he knows that if he does not do right by us we will not support him again.

[QC]

247. Stop it!

[bushisanidiot]

248. He's had 7.5 months to put this country back on track.

He's obviously slacking. Look at all the weeks of vacation he's been taking.. er.. uh, that was AWOL Bush, wasn't it? Sorry.

Anyway, 7.5 months is plenty of time for anyone to fix the economy, ensure gays have the right to marry nation-wide, pass a health care bill with all the bells and whistles everyone wants, end the war, and uh.. what else? 7.5 months is plenty of time to do little things like that, isn't it?

How hard can it be? What a slacker!

[joeycola]

280. His Strong Leadership on the Health bill would help him keep on track.

[butterfly77]

249. Kick &Recommended!!!

Thank you!Thank you!Thank you! Its not just on these boards its some of these people on tv who can see that it is not that simple but all I hear is: Obama has to do this...Obama has to do that.. And Obama has to do it this way...Obama has to say it this way..

When a lot of these talking heads have their own agenda's a most of these people who show up on these shows always are selling a damn book!

That shit was getting on my nerves throughout the bush years and every damn time they begin talking I always wonder what is your agenda and what think tank are you with. Seems like some of these people like Pat Buchanan,Ann Coulter and many others on the left and the right have a new book out every 3 to 6 months..

I really like this paragraph:
"You can't win the game if you don't play the fucking game. Period. Obama can't just announce that this is the way it is and the clouds part and the liberal ideal is realized. He has to fight every greedy, ignorant, special interest bastard and bitch to make this happen, and it's not gonna be easy. You can either get behind him or get out of the fuckin' way. Go vote for your Nader or Kucinich or whoever and feel better about yourself for "making a statement".
The rest of us are going to stay close to reality and back the people that can actually do something."

and this part:
Nobody here has the answers. Nobody here has to shoulder the weight Obama is carrying. We can all sit at the computer and bitch

What really irritates me is the fact that no president has had to deal with all of this shit happening all at once and it was caused by the Bush/Cheney and some seem to think it will be all fixed in a few months just because we elected a new president.

Some know and are just here to throw shit on the wall and see what will stick, and a lot of people are being really unrealistic or they are not really seeing what is going on...

[earth mom]

252. Quit telling REAL LEFTISTS to Shut Up! If you can't handle the truth that's YOUR problem!

:grr:

[akbacchus_BC]

254. You must be new on here? Most all bashing the President but I

am supporting him!

[mix]

286. A rant is not an argument. nt