Do any of you actually get the significance of the 'CBS mistake' story.

[abrock]

First up, I want to say that this was a Rove deal. It has that slimy ratfuck's fingerprints all over it. Now that we see the end result, we can be even more sure.

The end result, which we are going to almost certainly see today, is that CBS is going to be forced to admit the memos were not 'authentic' originals. The fact that they contain truth does not matter, because the news media, FOX in particular, is so intent on discrediting CBS and furthering Bush, and even though the memos contained truthful information about Bush's TANG service, it doesn't matter because truth was KO'd by a technicality. Fox, NBC, CNN, and all the rest will not report that the CBS story was truthful, but had altered documents instead of original ones. No, they'll report "CBS ADMITS PHONY RECORDS OF BUSH GUARD DUTY" and the typical American media sheep will automatically associate the technicality with the entire story, tainting the entire story forever, and also any chance CBS had of proving Bush failed to fulfill his duty.

People are simply not smart enough to realize how they are being manipulated, and that, really, is the problem with this election, and America today. I am sad to say it, but its going to get a whole lot worse before it gets better. I just hope there is a world 'after America' for humans to live in.

[Mr_Spock]

1. Thanks - depressing BUT, I think * was sufficiently tarnished

by this issue and it could do no more harm anyway since the people who support him don't seem to care if he is a fuck-up. No matter how you spin it, it's clear that Bush can't and won't prove that he was there at that time and that is all I need to know. He was full of cocaine and he couldn't take the physical. Case closed and we need to move on anyway. It won't take him down, but that is a VERY difficult thing to do anyway. Let's get back to the present.

[abrock]

4. For the love of...

Just imagine what would have happened if Clinton had this little history (or lack thereof) of duty (or lack thereof) in the TANG. The double standard we live by in this country is positively infuriating.

[Mr_Spock]

20. Yes, infuriating - but Clinton did have "chick issues" pop up before

second term and he survived them. Let's beat this coward the old fashioned way!!

[BurtWorm]

28. "Bush can't and won't prove that he was there at that time"

Mr. Spock...THAT is the significance of the CBS memo "fiasco."

This reminds of the scene in Rear Window when one of the courtyard neighbors' dogs is killed and Jeff (Jimmy Stewart) notices that only one person did not come to the window to see what all the fuss was about as the owner made a scene over it: the guy who probably killed the dog. The Bushists have had their surrogates make all kind of noise about type fonts and Dan Rather's lack of objectivity. But they've studiously avoided saying anything about Bush's Guard service beyond how "proud" he was to "serve." And why should they? They don't have anything else to say about it--anything real, anyway.

[BurtWorm]

29. ignore this dupe

.

[skypilot]

2. The significance as I see it ...

...is that almost NO ONE seems to remember that the original 60 Minutes story was about Ben Barnes who confessed that he'd done a favor for the Bushes by getting George into the Guard ahead of others. When was the last time you saw his name? I know that I must sound like a broken record whenever I mention this--and I've mentioned it frequently--but they have won when even we here at DU keep talking about those memos and forget the fact that Ben Barnes put his neck on the line.

[WilliamPitt]

3. CBS shou;dn't have run with questionable documents

I don't care how much truth the docs might show. If there's doubt attached to the documents, they shouldn't have run them. CBS will get its nose bumped, and rightly so.

We complain about no ethics in journalism. We just got burned by that lack of ethics.

[abrock]

7. I don't think they had any idea whatsoever the docs could have been fake.

Rove is the master of smear and lies. Remember that. How hard would it be for someone of his position and resources to make a new set of docs identical in every way except 1 or 2 small, tiny, undetectable telltales?

Easy doesn't begin to describe it.

[WilliamPitt]

10. No excuse

Rove is not some evil Jedi. CBS leaped before they finished looking. The fact that they did so is what makes Rove a 'genius.'

[forgethell]

26. Undetectable by who?

they were detected within hours. Of course, the info could have been planted, but this whole Karl Rove thing is much too RubeGoldbergian for me. think of how many things could go wrong with it. Think of the risks. They were ahead in the polls; why chance it? The thing about Rube Goldberg devices is that they actually could work, but who would go to all that much trouble, especially if they wanted the results to come out right.

[displacedtexan]

9. Good point! Why wasn't Killian's secretary found ahead of time?

If CBS had time to consult 4 document experts, why didn't someone try to find the man's secretary?

[Career Prole]

17. I only lost five bucks on my Red Sox / Yankmes bet yesterday,

but I'll get scorched for twenty over those freakin' documents.
That's how convinced I was. :shrug:

[AP]

21. Perahps their 'mistake' was intentional.

Why do people presume they weren't intentionally helping Rove out?

[DemBones DemBones]

23. Dan Bartlett at the White House affirmed that the

memos were genuine.

[deutsey]

5. I posted this on another thread here

Rove used Burkett the same way he used JH Hatfield and got the same result: discrediting dirty facts about Bush.

Burkett has had an ax to grind against Bush at least since the late '90s when he said Bush staff destroyed National Gaurd doc.

Hatfield, you probably remember, claimed that Rove was the source of his info on W's cocaine use. Taking him at his word, critics allege that Rove gave him the information knowing that Hatfield's past could be used to descredit him (and the coke story) after the book was published.

Here's the scenario with CBS: Burkett receives documents (from an anonymous source) that prove what he's been claiming all along is true. He sends them on to CBS, which, considering the source (Burkett) believes them to be legit. The White House also (interestingly) does not challenge the authenticity of the documents when CBS sends them for their review.

CBS goes forward with the story, Rove gives Buckhead (a Far-Right activist) information that challenges their authenticity and, now CBS is forced to concede that the docs are fake.

Not only does this descredit "the Liberal Media" :eyes: and their attempt to bring down Our Fearless Leader, but it also calls into question Burkett's credibility and obfuscates the real story about Bush's military service (or lack thereof). Throw in suspicions (unfounded as they are) that the Democrats played a role in this, and, voila, Bush hits the trifecta yet again:

CBS--humiliated
Burkett--discredited
Kerry/Democrats--smeared in the minds of rightwing sheep as playing a role

And the grandprize: Bush's dirty military record gets buried.

What a wonderful day. :evilfrown:

PS: And I believe CBS is ultimately responsible for this debacle because of their greed to get a scoop. If they had reservations, they shouldn't have run with the story, or they should have given airtime to addressing these reservations in the original story.

[Blue_Roses]

13. Bush Sr. "set-up" Dan Rather in 1988

Dan Rather and this group go back a long way. He and poppy had an exchange that was somewhat heated--to say the least.

In 1988 Rather and Bush Sr. had a heated debate about the Iran-contra affair:

Questions about a scandal in the Reagan administration led Rather to a run-in with then-Vice President George Bush during a live interview on national television in January 1988. This incident highlighted Rather's testy relations with top politicians, but also his vulnerability to attack. In the midst of the interview, Bush chastised Rather for creating a six-minute blackout on the network the previous September. It was the vice president's retort to Rather's insistent questioning about Bush's role in the Iran-Contra affair.
Four months later, on Jan. 25, 1988, Rather was in New York doing a live satellite interview on the "CBS Evening News" with Bush, who was in Washington. Rather asked the vice president, who was running to succeed Reagan, about the Iran-Contra affair and his involvement in it. Bush was not being responsive and Rather kept pressing. Bush finally let Rather have it with a planned assault.

"It's not fair to judge my whole career by a rehash on Iran," Bush began. "How would you like it if I judged your career by those seven minutes when you walked off the set in New York ? Would you like that?" Bush got the length of time and the city wrong, but it was plain that he had thrown Rather.

"I had raised the possibility with the staff before the interview that he might raise Miami," Rather recalls. "The staff unanimously felt that no way he'd do that, but I thought he might." In fact, some at CBS News had gotten word shortly before the interview that Bush would raise the Miami incident. "I wasn't shocked or surprised by it. I was thinking at the time, 'Let's get to the core questions.' That's exactly what I did. Now, what I wasn't prepared for, and this is where I made a big mistake, was for the whole weight of the vice president's presidential campaign--even before the interview was over--to begin spinning things their way, and to succeed."

The Bush campaign claimed that Rather had tried to set them up. The truth was that Bush and his confederates had set up Rather. Bettag, who was Rather's executive producer at the time, believes that Rather knew what he was getting into with Bush, but that his nature would not allow him to avoid the confrontation. "He believes so deeply that it is essential that a reporter not shrink from controversy that he has taken on any number of things that tee people off," Bettag says.



http://www.cigaraficionado.com/Cigar/CA_Profiles/People_Profile/0,2540,88,00.html

[aint_no_life_nowhere]

36. Or - - Rove left phoney memos in the dumpster for Burkett to find

when Bush's TANG file was sanitized as a safety precaution. It seems inconceivable to me that the Bush gang would sanitize Bush's file and then leave the memos to be found by someone in a trash can. Burkett says he saw portions of the TANG file abandoned in the trash. Any sanitizing by people as robotically determined and Machiavellian as Rove et al would be done with a good document shredder and fire.

[aquart]

37. We were NEVER going to get the RW sheep vote.

And I'm sorry Burkett's in trouble over this.

But that secretary went before the world and said the content was true.

The Bush image of a good ol' boy, one of us but richer and more successful, is in the dustbin.

They can't go there anymore. Yes, they managed to discredit more talk of his TANG records......and the wearing of the unearned ribbon, that's basically never going to be discussed...but Bush is still the boy who did nothing on his own.

[Myrina]

6. My take on the 'signifigance'...

Note that CBS is going to say it was MISLED into using the docs, thinking they were valid.

MISLED.

Where have we heard that before ??

MISLED by the White House into thinking Iraq had WMD
MISLED by the White House into thinking Iraq = Al Queida
And now a major news entity was MISLED on documents, vouched for by that very same White House.


Am I the only one that sees a potentially HUGE strategy here ??

[enough]

8. And the larger significance --

CBS News is now discredited. They were the only network doing actual reporting on some of the Bush administration's outrages. Whatever reporting they may do from here on can be tarred with this brush.

Very very useful development for Bushco.

[Blue_Roses]

11. yep

exactly what Rove wants

[In Truth We Trust]

12. Good analysis however the fact is * was AWOL. Do not let them

frame the question through duplicity. We still know he rec'd undeserved political favor (Barnes) and did not comply with direct orders (physical) as well as not reporting in Boston. The question remains: Bush was AWOL and how will the White House prove otherwise.

Don't let the rat bastards off the hook! Also do not let them off the hook for the economy, healthcare, int'l terrorism, Iraq etc, etc, etc

[nodictators]

19. US News & World report has the goods on Bush's AWOL

They had a full-page article in Bush's AWOL in their Sep. 20 issue, which was on the news stands all last week. They had the story on the web too, but I don't have the link right now.

Bush did not fulfill his commitment. He didn't even sign up with a Guard unit in Massachusetts as he was ordered to.

Has anyone seen this US News story on TV last week? Or, did they censor it off the airwaves and go after CBS?

[riverwalker]

14. give Dan Bartlett a polygraph

"Bill L. Burkett, a retired state plans officer with the Texas National Guard, claimed that in 1997 the Texas National Guard Archives had been "scrubbed" by order of then-Governor Bush's staff to protect the governor. Burkett said he was present when certain members of Bush's staff contacted the Guard. One he specifically identified was Dan Bartlett, then the governor's liason to the Texas National Guard. Burkett said that after Bartlett's call to Major General Daniel James III, the documents were shredded. James was the adjutant general for the state of Texas at the time and denied Burkett's
allegation. On June 3, 2002, James was appointed national director of the Air National Guard by President George W. Bush."

from Kitty Kelley's "The Family" page 303

[DemBones DemBones]

25. And that's not something new in Kelley's book -- Burkitt has said

long ago that Bartlett was involved in scrubbing Dubya's TANG records.

But the mainstream media rolls merrily along, ignoring so much.

[nomatrix]

41. Dan Bartlett bio from WH

"Before joining the Bush Administration, Dan Bartlett served as a senior spokesman and the Director of Rapid Response for the Bush for President campaign in Austin, Texas. He has served President Bush since 1993, working on both successful campaigns for Governor of Texas. From 1994 to 1998, Bartlett worked in the Governor's Office as Deputy to the Policy Director. During the 1998 re-election campaign, he served as Issues Director. Before joining President Bush, Mr. Bartlett worked for Karl Rove and Associates, an Austin-based political consulting firm."

Any questions?

[natrat]

15. knowing how absolutely slimey and corrupt

to the core these people are-sholdnt cbs have been more careful?

[ClassWarrior]

16. The only DEFINITIVE way to prove they're fake...

...is for Bush* to prove that the allegations within them are false.

Period.

[Mr_Spock]

22. You are right - all this hand ringing is just a waste of time.

Some here are so caught up in this stuff that they can't think straight - whatever.

[ClassWarrior]

24. You are correct sir.

Cripes - drop it back in Bush*'s lap EVERY TIME. What good does it do to concede defeat??

[readmylips]

18. It was a Rove warning to all TV Networks...

WE WILL CRUSH YOU...

That was a big threat to all the networks and media if they printed stories against bush. It is the same gangster action that they took against the United Nations, against allies not backing the war, the same gangster attack against Paul O'Neil, Richard Clarke and CNN's Christine Amanpour. They will crush anyone who speaks the truth against them.

Seymour Hersh said this is the most secretive administration in the history of the US. He is friends to Rumsfelt, Cheney, etc. all those people from past administrations, and they are locked away in Fort Knox running the country in total secrecy.

[Canuckistanian]

27. A very interesting tactic...

1. Provide a fake document containing true potentially devastating information about your opponent.

2. Send the document discretely to the one person who's expounding this theory in the first place.

3. Wait for the opportune time to discredit the letter absolutely.

4. Let the blast faxes do their work on every RW radio and TV show.

And the sweet part of this is that once the document has been proven a fake, everyone will assume that the story it contains is also fake, therefore providing a convenient excuse for why the story can't be true.

Karl Rove, take a bow. I applaud you, sir. You are the master of slime.

[Mr_Spock]

30. You are nuts if you believe what you wrote there.

It seemed so hypocritical and unproductive to Bush as I was reading it. The paranoia does no good and avoids the real issue - WHERE THE HECK WAS DUBYA? Everybody I know now believes he had cocaine in his system and avoided the physical. THen his daddy sent him to Alabama to "clean-up" from the drugs. If you think it matters what the right-wing nuts jobs think, they YOU are smoking crack. Real people believe otherwise, and only stupid insecure morons listen to those nut-cases on TV/Radio and they WILL NOT change anyway. I am laughing at the paranoia here - c'mon, nobody in thier right mind would bring a story like this to the fore, knowing that it is TRUE and that it may stimulate more people to talk. Just an insane stupid paranoid theory.

[Pathwalker]

31. Accusing a DUer of being a crackhead?

I think THAT's a little over the top.

[Canuckistanian]

32. My point is that the FACTS are now wrongly DISCREDITED

If anyone tries to bring this up in the future, the RW nutjobs will scream "FAKE! FORGERY!"
I've been listening to the likes of Hannity and Rush and that's all they're trying to drill into those ditto-heads. They're just glossing over the fact that the TANG secretary said that the facts are true, but the documents weren't real.
Do you believe the documents are real?

And, BTW, I agree with everything you say and I don't care what the nutjobs think, but millions DO.

[Mr_Spock]

33. Yeah, I just think there are more undecideds who want the nut-jobs

to be talking about something of substance. Their reaction to this just makes the point that they were INCREDIBLY worried about this story. Anybody who also looks at other information - likely independents - will notice their glee that the memo's are possibly fake. AND, these people might wonder why. The more they read and learn, the more damning it will be for the lying AWOL drunken coke-head. I believe everything in Kittie Kelley's book about "everyone knew" that Dumbya did coke". Know why? It's called a PREPONDERANCE OF THE EVIDENCE!! Trust me, this isn't actually "good" for Bush. He may win the election, but this story is not an asset, just a distraction and it may even influence some honest people not to vote for him because he is so clearly a hypocrite.

[aquart]

39. Except that Rove has done it before.

That's what has everyone going: what Rove did to Hatfield.

[ContinentalOp]

34. Here's the part that doesn't make sense to me...

The explanation they floated to discredit the documents (the MS Word stuff) was absolute bullshit which has been thouroughly debunked. If the docs are not legit why didn't they simply throw out some real evidence that would prove they are forgeries? Probably because they are not actually forgeries per se but simply additional copies from the same period, later copies Killian made for his files, or re-creations backed up by originals which still exist somewhere. I still hope Rather has a trick up his sleeve and is letting this all unfold in a way that will fly right back at Rove and the White House.

[democratreformed]

35. Good Lord...... your last line....

brings it right home.

[aquart]

38. We can't win if we are contemptuous of our fellow Americans.

You might want to have a little respect for other people's lives and experiences.

Saying the rest of country is "not smart enough" is to start from a superior and, frankly, disgusting point of view.

[Snivi Yllom]

40. you forgot another important result

This will innoculate Bush from this issue as all related items to the TANG records will be treated extra suspect. I predict team * will go on the offensive and turn this around as a way to attack the Kerry campaign. And the media whores will happily swallow all of this.