Should a state which allows one to carry AR-15's openly get your tourist dollars?

[ksoze]

The flaunting of the second amendment at presidential stops should highlight the backwards laws some of our states enact. Maybe they would be less interested if families elected to visit elsewhere on vacation where guns are more restricted. The hijacking of these media events by those who flaunt their exaggerated constitutional right so overtly should understand the fear they like to instill can come back and bite the state that feeds them

Not anti-gun, just anti-gun in my face.

[billh58]

1. K&R

[roguevalley]

71. agreed. I totally agree.

[katandmoon]

2. They would rather lose tourist $$$ than NRA contributions to their campaign chests.

[Hello_Kitty]

3. Bingo! eom

[ksoze]

4. Arizona had 35.2 million Visitors in 2007; Visitor spending topped $19.3 billion

Bring it on NRA.

[4lbs]

94. If there is a 10% dropoff in visitors, protesting against openly carrying firearms, that's a

$1.9 billion loss in revenue.

Think the NRA would be willing to make up the difference?

[Catshrink]

5. AZ allows guns in restaurants now.

One gun totin' son of a gun was on the news over the weekend saying it's important to have this law because he "needs to protect his family." Right. What does he mean by this? Would he pull out his gun and shoot someone who winked at his wife? Bumped into her in the buffet line? Scares the heck out of me.


"The Arizona Senate has passed a bill allowing bar patrons with concealed weapons permits to carry their guns while visiting their favourite watering hole... as long as they promise not to drink while they are there.


The bill pass with a 19-8 vote, sending the bill for final approval to Republican Gov. Jan Brewer who is has long been a supporter of gun rights.


The bill would allow gun owners to protect themselves in bars just like any other place, as long as they too aren't drinking."

http://www.nowpublic.com/world/guns-and-booze-bars-arizonas-wild-west-gun-law

[annabanana]

6. If I went into a restaurant and saw an armed guy at the table next to me

and my kids..

I would leave, and I would let the room know why I was leaving. (I don't know that guy who's "exercising his rights".. He might be drunk, he might be crazy... even though he's probably only pigheaded & stupid.)

[Chulanowa]

7. Exactly - you don't know

There's a definite trend from the NRA types (including many of DU's own Nugentians) to declare that if a person has a gun, they are always going to be perfectly responsible with it and will never even think of doing anything criminal with it. it's part of the whole "magical talisman" aspect of the thing that these people believe in.

[Catshrink]

8. I'd leave too.

The law says if they're carrying a gun, they can't be drinking. But what's to stop someone from getting drunk at one bar then bringing his gun into a second where it may not be obvious that he's drunk (at least not at first).

If restaurants and other places post that no guns are allowed, they aren't supposed to bring them in. But if they do, and if they are challenged, what will they do? Things are just to volatile right now.

[ssolid71]

77. No the law does not say you can't drink and carry.

No the law does not say you can't drink an carry. Just because it's stupid to do doesn't mean its illegal.

[The Doctor.]

11. Many years ago, in Boston, I was waiting tables...

It was an up-scale restaurant. A 50-ish balding red-haired guy with a wide blue wind-breaker came in, got a table, and I took care of him.

He was so reeking of insecurity.

As I brought his drink, he was taking the wind-breaker off and putting it on the back of the chair. It fell.

One of the outside pockets hit the ground very quickly and with a distinctive 'double thud' on the hard-wood floor.

I said; ".38, nickle-plated?"

He looked shocked, then stunned, then demure.

"Our special tonight is Crab-stuffed Whitefish, topped with a light Hollandaise..."

I took care of him, he tipped fairly enough.

He left.

I thought he was very sloppy. He knew that, and he realized that not only was he in a civilized situation, but that the 'civilized' were also adept.

It was a good message to a marginally competent owner.

[greguganus]

33. I'd back out toward the door slooooowly. n/t

[rd_kent]

48. The same could be said about the person next to you

in their car. "even though he's probably only pigheaded & stupid" Yeah, thats honest.

[ssolid71]

76. You're around consealed guns all the time....you don't even know.

[Scout]

84. "consealed"

:rofl:

[AlinPA]

95. Yep, um problee arown consealed gunz a lott and dont no it.

[chrisa]

80. How about if it was a police officer?

Would you feel safer?

[Retrograde]

24. I've been to many nice restaurants in AZ without being aware of this

It's just not something I'm attuned to look for. I suppose there are in reality just as many people per capita carrying weapons in places I've been in non-concealed carry permit states. I still prefer that my fellow patrons not be loaded - in any sense of the word.

[tsuki]

47. Oh, I know that is going to go well. nt

[Cha]

68. I wouldn't go to Arizona without

a gun to shoot back.

[ssolid71]

75. The only state that has laws against carrying in bars is virginia.

[michreject]

83. Nice way to cloud the issue

It's about guns in diners that serve alcohol. NOT BARS.

[MrModerate]

9. My letter to the Arizona Chamber of Commerce . . .

(www.azchamber.com) and Arizona Tourist Office (www.aztourist.com):

Until yesterday, I was planning a family reunion that would have brought approximately 20 adults and children to your state during the holiday period December 2009-January 2010. However, upon discovering that your state allows -- even celebrates -- foolish individuals bringing semiautomatic weapons to a presidential speaking engagement, I've cancelled those plans and will be spending the holiday (and all our holiday dollars) somewhere else.

Obviously, whatever gun laws Arizonans want is their own decision, but actions have consequences, and in this case it's a loss of thousands of dollars to your tourist industry.

You might want to consider whether fostering a culture of craziness is really in your state's best interests.

[chicago legal pro]

15. Obama disagrees with you

As his recent stop at the Grand Canyon demonstrates. The publicity because of his visit will bring in hundreds of millions of tourist dollars to Arizona.

[MrModerate]

23. He has all those Secret Service guys to protect him . . .

although with crowds of gun nuts around him, I'm far from sure that the Secret Service would be sufficient if one of these twits wants to pull an Oswald.

However, the fact is that I *was* going to bring the family together at the Grand Canyon, but because we *don't* travel with agents who are authorized to set up a security perimeter and keep the armed crazies away from us, we'll spend our money elsewhere. 20 adults and children, that's several thousand dollars.

Other people who didn't realize that Arizona was an unregulated nutcase state are encouraged to make the same choice.

[benEzra]

42. Don't ever go to Vermont, Minnesota, New Hampshire, or Maine then. (n/t)

[ssolid71]

78. I have a list of other states chambers of commerce you should mail.

States permit open carry without requiring the citizen to apply for any permit or license:
Alaska
Montana
Idaho
Wyoming
Nevada
Arizona
New Mexico
South Dakota
Vermont
Kentucky
Virginia
Pennsylvania

States permit open carry with restrictions:

Utah
North Dakota
Minnesota
Iowa
Tennessee
Mississippi
Georgia
Indiana
Maryland
New Jersey
Rhode Island
Connecticut
Massachusetts

[City Lights]

10. After having lived there for 5 years, I have no intention of going back.

Ever.

And while you're on the subject of tourist dollars, it's a great time to point out that the voters of Maricopa County decided to tax tourists in order to help pay for their football stadium.

Who is being taxed to pay for the costs of the stadium?

Taxes began being levied in Maricopa County on March 1, 2001 and will end on February 28, 2031. The taxes are collected from a Car Rental Surcharge of 3.25 percent and a Hotel Tax of 1 percent in Maricopa County.

http://www.glendalesgotgame.com/faqs.html

[boppers]

18. You lived around Phoenix.

First mistake.

:P

[Drunken Irishman]

12. Arizona makes Utah look sane.

I never thought that'd be possible.

[boppers]

19. Utah has mandatory carry towns.

Sorry, they still have a better hold on the crazies.

[Drunken Irishman]

20. Not at that level.

Not in Salt Lake. I've never seen a person walking down the street with a semi-automatic rifle. Even during hunting season.

[boppers]

21. Ah, well, that's SLC. Modest and all.

Then again: http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/18355953/

Head out into the hills and it gets... creepier.

AZ is much the same, seeing a rifle in Tucson or Phoenix is odd, but in Prescott? Not so odd.

[quakerboy]

26. Manditory Carry?

wheres that? Granted I avoid Utah anyway, but which parts is it I REALLY need to avoid?

[Critters2]

45. How the hell is THAT Constitutional?

I'll take their gun when they force it into my cold, dead fingers!

[rd_kent]

49. Mandatory? I think not. Which towns are those?

[LooseWilly]

60. Google 'mandatory firearm possession'.

First link I found is from GA: http://www.mcsm.org/kennesaw.html

Kennesaw, GA's
Mandatory Gun Law
A Proven Success

11-6-99

The New American magazine reminds us that March 25th marked the 16th anniversary of Kennesaw, Georgia's ordinance requiring heads of households (with certain exceptions) to keep at least one firearm in their homes.

The city's population grew from around 5,000 in 1980 to 13,000 by 1996 (latest available estimate). Yet there have been only three murders: two with knives (1984 and 1987) and one with a firearm (1997).

"After the law went into effect in 1982, crime against persons plummeted 74 percent compared to 1981, and fell another 45 percent in 1983 compared to 1982. And it has stayed impressively low. In addition to nearly non-existent homicide (murders have averaged a mere 0.19 per year), the annual number of armed robberies, residential burglaries, commercial burglaries, and rapes have averaged, respectively, 1.69, 31.63, 19.75, and 2.00 through 1998."
...

I don't see any links about UT, but I had heard of such things before... A more precise researching will undoubtedly turn up more.

[rd_kent]

63. Thats not mandatory carry, and there is no legal requirement

and it is not enforceable.

[LooseWilly]

64. Point taken, that's not mandatory carry, merely mandatory possession by heads of household.

It is an ordinance, hence it is legally required.
I have no idea what the details of the ordinance are... including no idea of what the legal penalties of non compliance may be (I doubt that it is a local felony not to own a firearm... misdemeanor, probably). How it is enforced I also have no idea.

In fact, I don't really care.

I was merely trying to illustrate just how wacky the gun laws (&/or ordinances) can get... Get as riled as you like, the idea that a town would pass an ordinance requiring gun ownership clearly illustrates that attitudes toward firearms varies wildly from jurisdiction to jurisdiction.

[rd_kent]

65. Im not getting riled up at all. Your example just goes to show

that making laws of an extreme nature like this one, or one that BANS guns, are both unconstituional. No one in that twon has ever been charged with NOT owning a gun, period.

[LooseWilly]

67. An interesting point... actually.

I don't think anyone's ever actually tried to challenge the constitutionality of ordinance's requiring gun ownership.

If an unconstitutional law is passed, but no one challenges it- is it unconstitutional? (If a tree falls in a forest, and no one's there to hear it, does it make a sound?)

I suspect that you are right, if it were challenged, it might well be judged unconstitutional... but I can't actually think of what the grounds for such a judgement might be. In the meantime though, until a judgement is made by a court... are such laws really unconstitutional?

[rd_kent]

69. I guess its semantics

You are right, passing a law doesn't mean it is unconstitutional. Unless someone is charged with violating that law, no one would challenge it. This law does have a loophole, allowing anyone to opt out of gun ownership on conscientious objections, so I don't know how they could actually charge someone for violating it. Maybe it was just one of those "feel good" laws passed to make a point.

[chrisa]

81. Mandatory Carry?

But the reason that they probably encourage carrying is wild animals. In some areas, where there's probably more bears than people, you don't want to be eaten.

[Posteritatis]

89. I've heard of a few other places like that for that reason

I think Svalbard requires you to have a rifle on hand, to the point where one's issued if you don't have one, if you're going outside the settlements.

Of course, polar bears are larger, tougher and more aware that they're apex predators than most bears in the lower 48...

[gordianot]

13. There just seems to be something wrong about anyone who brings a gun to a political event..

I have firearms that I take to a shooting range, out in the field at our farm to protect livestock, or hunting about twice a year. My Grandfather always said never ever carry a gun for any purpose unless you intend or are prepared to use it. He also said anytime you carry a gun in public you run the risk of someone taking it away and using it on you. Only a total fool (not law enforcement) carries firearms in a crowd especially a political event.

[Abq_Sarah]

14. Bringing a firearm to a political event is just stupid

That said, I too would appreciate it if people who scream GUN!!! every time they see a citizen exercising a constitutional right would vacation somewhere else as well.

[benEzra]

43. I think it was a calculated move to (predictably) stir up the media and generate publicity.

He succeeded (got himself on some talk shows, didn't he?), got his picture in the national news, probably got a few of his political opponents to say dumb things, and got the media to largely ignore what Obama was saying at the event and instead focus on the ZOMG THAT SCAWWY GUN HAS A PROTRUDING HANDGRIP!!!! That's probably exactly what the guy was after.

[AZBlue]

16. PLEASE contact the Arizona Tourist Bureau!

I couldn't agree with you more and hope many will write or call - our tourism industry is suffering enough, believe me you'll get their attention.

Mike Mooney, COO
Greater Phoenix CVB
400 E. Van Buren St #600
Phoenix, AZ 85004
(877) CALLPHX
[email protected]

Sherry Henry, Executive Director
Arizona Office of Tourism
1110 W. Washington #155
Phoenix, AZ 85007
602-364-3717
[email protected]


A big reason I want to leave this state is its gun laws.

[jberryhill]

17. Are you suggesting they should secretly get my tourist dollars?

What difference does it make how they get my dollars?

[ZombieHorde]

56. I missed that, good catch and pretty funny. nt

[Hippo_Tron]

22. In practical terms, "Boycott Arizona" isn't going to work

The best thing we can do is show these assholes that we're not afraid of them and trust that the secret service can protect the President.

[slampoet]

82. Boycott Arizona has ALREADY worked in the past, or don't you remember Gov. Mecham ??????

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Evan_Mecham

"Among these actions were the cancellation of the state's Martin Luther King, Jr. Day, attributing high divorce rates to working women, and his defense of the word "pickaninny." In reaction to these events, a boycott of Arizona was organized, damaging the state's tourism industry by the cancellation of multiple conventions. A rift between the governor and fellow Republicans in the Arizona Legislature developed after a series of questionable political appointments prompted accusations of cronyism against the governor."


Do some basic research before posting Please.


You have been pwned.

[boppers]

25. Yes.

States with free press, free religion, free arms, are states I'm happy to visit.

I'm not pro-gun, just anti-gun-fear.

I've been shot at, and have been familiar with guns for 30 years. They don't scare me.

[ksoze]

27. Guns may not scare you, but the shooters should

I am also not anti-gun, have also owned and shot guns, but find the whole walking the streets with assault rifles a bit over the top. It seems the second amendment is being usurped here to force a point from some primal fear and we are not the better for it as a society. Fear of guns is not abnormal or anti democracy, it's just common sense when they are used as a tool to kill and many have been touched in some way by them.

[Recursion]

29. Nobody can walk the street with an assault rifle in AZ.

[ksoze]

30. You better tell that guy with the AR-15 assault rifle in Phoenix

The AR-15 may be semi-auto to be legal, but the model is by definition an assault rifle.

[Recursion]

31. It is by definition not an assault rifle

Assault rifles are capable of selective fire. The AR-15 is not.

The AR-15 is a .22. It's good for shooting squirrels, groundhogs, or possibly coyotes though that's getting on the large end of the game it could take down.

[boppers]

34. Whoa. You do not know your weapons.

It comes in .223 Remington/5.56x45mm NATO, 6.5 mm Grendel, 6.8 mm Remington SPC, and there are 9mm kits for it as well... the AR-15 is a general weapon *style*, not a specific round, chamber, or firing mechanism.

As far as your contention that "Assault rifles are capable of selective fire", I do not suggest taking your own advice when arguing with the ATF or other national law enforcement. The definition of assault rifles is far more expansive and exacting than that (much to the annoyance and amusement of people trying to figure it out).

[ksoze]

35. +1

[Irreverend IX]

66. Assault rifles?

Can you point out any ATF/law enforcement documents that refer to semiauto guns as assault rifles? According to the nomenclature used by militaries, collectors and the firearms industry, an assault rifle must have a burst or fully-automatic fire mode. "Assault weapons" are another thing altogether, defined by lawmakers who want to arbitrarily ban swaths of scary-looking guns.

Also, the AR-15 may come in a wide variety of chamberings but the vast majority of them are 5.56. And 99% of them share the same firing mechanism, the only deviations being a piston in some new rifles and blowback operation in the pistol-caliber carbines.

[cherokeeprogressive]

86. You are wrong. The AR-15 is only available in 5.56 mm.

The AR-15 is based on the 7.62 mm AR-10, designed by Eugene Stoner of the Fairchild ArmaLite corporation. The AR-15 was developed as a lighter, 5.56 mm version of the AR-10. The "AR" in AR-15 comes from the ArmaLite name. ArmaLite's AR-1, AR-5, and some subsequent models were bolt action rifles, and there are shotguns and pistols whose model numbers also include the "AR" prefix.

ArmaLite sold its rights to the AR-10 and AR-15 to Colt in 1959.

The AR-15 was developed as a lighter, 5.56 mm version of the 7.62 mm AR-10. The AR-15 rifle is available in a wide range of configurations from a large number of manufacturers. These configurations range from short carbine-length models with features such as adjustable length stocks and optical sights, to heavy barrel models. Some of the most popular manufacturers are ArmaLite, Bushmaster, and DPMS (My comment: You'll note that caliber is not mentioned in this sentence).

Due to the rifle's modular design, one upper receiver can quickly and easily be substituted for another. There are many aftermarket upper receivers that incorporate barrels of different weights, lengths and calibers. Some of the most popular calibers available for the AR-15 platform are the .223 Remington/5.56x45mm, 6.5 mm Grendel and 6.8 mm Remington SPC. Additionally many obscure wildcat cartridges exist (My comment: While it CAN be modified by its owner, it is only AVAILABLE in 5.56 mm).

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/AR-15

Take a look at the following link. Notice that caliber is not even mentioned on the page. Not once.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/AR-15_variants

[billyoc]

28. Yes.

[TxRider]

Since only about 6 states have laws against it

Your paring down your choices pretty far...

[DU GrovelBot]

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[cali]

36. Vermont has the least restrictive gun laws in the country.

And believe me, you don't have guns in your face here. Your OP is silly.

[Sebastian Doyle]

37. I can't bash the entire state, since it's my "second home state" and all.

But I won't defend the gun nuts. Or Jan Brewer. Or neither of the useless senators. There IS a reason I won't live in AZ fulltime, and it's not the summer temperatures. :evilfrown:

[boppers]

39. Is it the Sun Devils?

Grinning, ducking, and running: A Tucson Wildcat.

edit: typo

[libodem]

38. I wonder how far one would get

if one entered the neighborhood of G.W. Bush, or Dickless Cheney, with one of those strapped across your back. How well would it go over if you waited for John Fucking Yoo, or Kindasleezy Rice, to come off campus with a big automatic machine gun. Thought so. No one would dare treat a Neocon like that. Why does this difference exist?

[X_Digger]

58. * is in Texas, which doesn't have open carry, so not far..

.. and the AR-15 is not a 'big automatic machine gun', it's a semi-automatic rifle. Nobody who is carrying a gun will get within the security perimeter set up by the secret service in concentric circles from the 'package' out.

[quiller4]

40. Sure and if I have money to travel, they would.

[azmouse]

41. I've lived in AZ since 1994 and have never seen anyone with a gun.

Ever.

[boppers]

44. Uh, flagstaff, maybe?

What part of AZ is it that you haven't seen a firearm?

[azmouse]

55. I've lived in Tucson from 1994-2000

and Glendale from 2001-present.

I've never seen anyone carrying a gun in either metropolitan area.

[boppers]

62. Interesting.

I was in Tucson from 1972-2004, and was used to seeing them all the time. Perhaps it's a matter of neighborhood and area though, I was up in the Tucson mountains and on the west side of town. Reflecting back, I didn't see as many folks carrying on the east side, or up in the Catalinas, or in Marana (after it was de-farmed and turned into a suburb).

[Hello_Kitty]

46. Seriously? I see them all the time.

Granted, it's not like every 3rd person or anything like that. Honestly, I'm used to it and it's not that big a deal to me. But parading around with one at a political protest is just, well, creepy.

[ClayZ]

50. K and R

[BrightKnight]

51. If I had taken a loaded gun to one of Chimpy's events

they would have locked you up for life.

[slackmaster]

54. Why?

That doesn't make any sense at all. I wasn't even there.

:crazy:

[formercia]

52. I once carried an unloaded 742 Remington semi-automatic rifle

through Kennedy airport, boarded the aircraft and handed it to the flight attendant at the door. When I exited, she handed it back to me and no-one challenged me.

That was 1966, before all of this terrorism foolishness started.

[BrightKnight]

59. I have carried Remington 1100 and 870 shotguns

through a small Texas town more times than I can remember. Sometimes I was in the back of a pickup with other people doing the same thing. Other times I was literally riding shotgun or I had the gun sitting in the seat next to me or in the back seat of my car. In all cases the magazine was empty and action was open for safety reasons. During hunting season nobody would notice or thinks twice about it.

If I had walked into a restaurant in the same town with a loaded pistol everyone would have been alarmed. Nobody would do that.

[slackmaster]

53. I'd be happy to see fewer tourists here in California

More parking spaces available, less litter on the beach, fewer clueless drivers on the road, not as many fat people smoking cigarettes in all the nice places I enjoy visiting.

[Bluenorthwest]

57. but the thing is...

Tourism is California's 3rd largest employer and 5th largest contributor to the gross state product. You need more, not less, tourists, I'd think.

[cherokeeprogressive]

91. Living in a resort town in CA, I'd have to agree... BUT

I think they (tourists) should have to take a class on responsible tourism and present their completion certificates complete with a signed oath not to litter my lake before they start up the mountain.

[LibDemAlways]

61. I don't even like being around cops with their loaded guns. I sure

as hell wouldn't want to be anywhere near some yahoo packing heat in public.

[Phx_Dem]

70. Nope.

[hannah]

72. guns

Maybe those Democrats who can legally carry, Should openly
carry an AR15 to a Republican event and see what happens.   

[ssolid71]

74. Do it. They won't care.

[ssolid71]

73. If I can bring an AR-15, I will. Because Pinch Sulzberger says that's the right thing to do.

"Just because you can, does that mean you should?"

Well, I take my lead from the New York Times. Every time they find out a secret about how we're fighting terrorism they print it, telling the enemy how to best succeed at killing Americans and get away with it. Why do they do it? Because the 1st Amendment says they can. And if they can, then they should, right?

So yeah, if I can, I will. Because Pinch Sulzberger says that's the right thing to do.

The Bill of Rights: It's not just about Liberals any more.

If we want to expand our liberties and freedoms, boundries will have to be pushed, and I dont mean in any way that violence need be made.

1 guy OCs a handgun and 10 people see him

10 people see him and tell 10 more

and so goes the expansion of knowledge.

Now one guy who represents us well OCs an AR-15 and 10,000,000 see it and all tell 10 people, which way gets the ball rolling faster for us?

Antis prey on ignorance, misinformation and spin, so it stands to reason that POSITIVE exposure is the key to nullifying anti-gun misinformation. In my opinion this is a step in the right direction.

And Anti-Gun in your face would be a drawn weapon in your face, any other sediment is anti-gun, get over it.

[WinkyDink]

79. Meanwhile, 2000-2008, Democrats couldn't exercise the 1st A. with signs, t-shirts, etc., at Bush

events.

[Splinter Cell]

85. The problem is....

The second amendment doesn't allow for these idiots to own assault rifles. If just doesn't. They want it to say that, they think it does, but it doesn't.

"A well regulated Militia, being necessary to the security of a free State, the right of the people to keep and bear Arms, shall not be infringed."

Nothing in it about assholes being allowed to own a private weapons cache. Assault weapons are not used for hunting, or home protection. They have only one purpose...assault. Nobody should be allowed to own them. "Live Free or Die" my ass.

[ellie]

87. No, they won't be getting my

tourist dollars. Exactly what are these gun-toters afraid of? Ridiculous. How horrible to live in so much fear that you have to strap on a gun for protection.

[AngryAmish]

88. As long as the Cubs have spring training there, I'll go

Don't see too many armed folks on the golf course or in Ho Ho Kam.

[deep1]

90. Great post...........

It sickening how the media stresses that 2nd amendment garbage. They are not merely expressing their rights, these morons are just trying to intimidate people. Plain and simple.

[Fire1]

92. They don't have to worry about my tourist dollars. I'm not

fond of New England, anyway.

[HopeOverFear]

93. Hell to the naw (c) Whitney Houston

[ksoze]

96. Looks like one major travel writer has urged a tourist ban..

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=132x8603852