Nader Logic: Keeping Him Off Ballots Will Cost "Gutless" Dems the Election

[BurtWorm]

:wtf:


http://www.reuters.com/newsArticle.jhtml?type=politicsNews&storyID=6296698

Nader Blames Kerry for Ballot Access Fight


By Sue Pleming
WASHINGTON (Reuters) - Independent presidential candidate Ralph Nader accused his Democratic rival Sen. John Kerry on Tuesday of being responsible for a campaign to try and keep him off the Nov. 2 ballot.

Seen by many Democrats as the "spoiler" in the 2000 election that elected Republican George W. Bush as president, Nader's campaign said it was fighting 21 legal cases in 17 states in a bid to get the consumer advocate on the ballot.

Nader pointed the finger at Kerry and Democratic Party Chairman Terry McAuliffe for being behind what his campaign says is a program of harassment, intimidation and phony lawsuits that are costing tens of thousands of dollars in legal fees.

"The ballot access has drained our time and our resources," Nader told a news conference. "I have to hold Sen. John Kerry and Terry McAuliffe directly responsible."
...

Nader called the Democrats "gutless, spineless, clueless and hapless" and said their gamble that people would vote for anyone but Bush was misguided and would make them lose the election.....

[WI_DEM]

1. Nader has become a whining laughing stock

His once great career will be reduced to being a caricature--the Harold Stassen of his time.

[DemocratSinceBirth]

3. Nader is a toothache of a man (nt)

[mimitabby]

2. who'd vote for nader

the only person i know who is voting for nader is a guy
who voted for bush the last time.

[napi21]

10. That's my question too! Who are the 2% - 3% Nader voters?

In every poll, there are2-3 percent for Nader. There are always a few people who feel any candidate from either major party is bad. I think, in 2000, there were quite a few voters who were very pi**ed at Clinton because of the scandals, linked Gore to that because he was VP, but didn't like shrub, so they voted for Nader as a protest vote. I suspect they didn't expect shrub to be as bad as he turned out to be. They will NOT vote for Nader again!

So what is the thinking of that hidden 2-3%?

[ever_green]

38. I think we should leave him alone

I don't actually know anyone in real life who will be voting for him, but I read blogs and other forums where he has support. Actually I can see their point about the two party system, corporate sponsors, parties losing their way, etc. and I think YEAH! But then I think of Bush. And my mind is made up.
His cause would be a good one if this weren't the most important election EVER.

I do wish Democrats would just ignore him though, don't slander him, it just makes our party look bad.

[ccvirgo911]

48. well my son is writing his name in

I have been trying for a while to make him see how this will not benefit him. We are in Missouri, where Nader isn't even on the ballot. But he says if he voted for anyone on the ballot, it would violate his principles. He and his large circle of friends are all Naderites, and although I have spent hours talking with him and them, I am getting nowhere. They are convinced that Nader is the 'anti-politician', the only one who isn't lying to us, all the usual rhetoric. This is his first time voting in a presidential election, and it bothers me greatly that he has chosen to take this position. However, I raised him to think for himself, so I guess this is the price. He is a man now, and it's his decision.

[George_Bonanza]

51. Nader is just as much a politician as anybody else

If he was truly principled, he would not hitch onto the RNC wagon in difficult states like Oregon and Michigan.

[mmonk]

4. Did you say logic?

pffffffffft

[MsTryska]

5. is it just me....

or has he become slightly crazy lately. i tried to watch him this morning on CSPAN and the vitriol was jsut way too incomprehensible and over the top for me to deal with.

Last night on some other station he was talking about Blood and Pus and soemthign else and i was too disgusted to keep watching. Last thing i need is some guy like nader lecturing me on bodily fluids. ick.

[rockymountaindem]

39. "Blood and Pus"

was the nickname of the Fascist flag in "For Whom the Bell Tolls", I believe.

[Cha]

6. nadir is the gutless one...taking repuke money and

signitures cause he couldn't scare up his own.

[Ganja Ninja]

7. Don't go away mad Ralph just go away.

If you don't have the resources to get on the ballot how can you call yourself a viable candidate? Your support just isn't there but don't worry. Dry your tears, Bush still has a chance even without you.

[Xipe Totec]

8. I Think I'm Gonna Ralph!

Methinks the traitor doth protest too much.

[kid a]

9. wow - "nader" appears on GD, C2004

is he still around?

Haven't thought about him in a long while - good riddance

[seabeyond]

11. nadar is the ultimate in corruption as he points the finger

at corruption. he has no credibility. i have no respect for this man. he is dirty, real dirty adn to hang hat on him to purify the system, is as bad as voting bush cause he is honest, has moral values, is competent.

[dogtag]

12. Nader is the hemorroid on the anus of the 'body politic' -

Ralph, you are no longer liberal.
You no longer matter.
No one is listening to your whiney rants.
You are blowing your well earned legacy to smithereens.
You're no longer a 'spoiler' and your campaign has no meaning.
You are not Don Quixote, you are not even his horse. (Though you look a bit like her)

You are nothing but a capitalist tool now. Is that really how you wanted to end your career?

[Norquist Nemesis]

13. Nader is running for one reason only...

himself.

I watched Lou Dobbs last night. He was running on incoherently like a mad man. Then, as I've watched him do on every single appearance that I've seen him, he says, "Well, if you read my book..." and holds it up for the camera.

I swear, he's been using the campaign as a free-loading book promotion tour at every opportunity. Who does that benefit? Ralph Nader.

[mzmolly]

14. Nader shows who he is over and over again.

"gutless, spineless, clueless and hapless" ~ Me thinks he is projecting.

Gosh isn't he supposed to be 'attacking' Bush? Helping the Dems? I thought that was his goal this time round. hmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm

[demwing]

15. "Ballot access has drained ... our resources"

Well YEAH, thats part of the plan. Duh.

Keep you off where we can, making you fight and lose resources in the process, minimizing your exposure on every front...

Seems like a good plan, and it seems to be working. :)

[Clinton Crusader]

22. "Ballot access has drained ... our resources"...

So just ask the RNC for an advance on next month's payment. What's the problem Ralphie?
:kick:

[Green Lantern]

41. Actually, as of last week

Ralphie had received a total of $54,000 from known RP members and a total of $66,000 from known DP members. Hmmmmmm Who is helping him??

[elperromagico]

44. Heh - that's funny.

:D:thumbsup:

[Green Lantern]

46. Working?

Duh yuh. except for the fact that a lot of Indies and Greens who were going to hold their noses and vote Kerry are now not doing so. Not only that but they are targeting vulnerable Dems and will not be supporting them either. Oh yeah it;s working. Good job DP.

[nancyharris]

16. Just a reminder...

Nader is speaking out for truly Progressive Democratic ideas.

-Get out of Iraq NOW
-Public financing of elections
-Universal single-payer health plan
-Repeal of NAFTA
-Proportional voting
-Ban of paperless voting methods
-Marshall plan to eliminate poverty in America
-Repeal of the Patriot Act
-Gay Marriage

I would guess that more Democrats approve of Nader's positions on many issues than they approve of Kerry's position. If our Democratic candidate would get out in front of even SOME of these issues and actively speak forcefully in favor of them, there would be no reason for a Nader candidacy AND I think he would gain more independent support than he now has.

[AVID]

17. let him speak as a kerry supporter

he lost in 2000 - lost big time

he hasn't gained any support since then - lost it

why run? repeating same mistakes over and over again is insanity.

is he insane?

Join the remedy or get the fuck out of the way, nader.

[Green Lantern]

40. The DP is not

the remedy-it is part of the problem.

[Green Lantern]

43. Why would he do that?

He is not a member of the DP.

[BurtWorm]

18. And how exactly does voting for Nader bring any of these closer to reality

if it results in giving the appearance of legitimizing the Bushist agenda?

[LoZoccolo]

20. How is he going to do that?

What's the plan, and how does getting Nader on ballots bring us anywhere close to any of that?

[LoZoccolo]

19. No, his campaign's frequent violations of ballot access laws...

...have drained up his time and energy and kept him off.

[GreenPartyVoter]

21. Dems should just pass ranked voting reforms already

Honestly, playing games and trying to keep people off the ballot is stupide. Just fix the system at the root of the problem.

[LoZoccolo]

23. Why?

So people can walk around and say "well I didn't vote for _____ for my first choice!" Is there any purpose to that at all? This is one of the worst election reforms I have ever heard of.

[GreenPartyVoter]

28. Uh, NO, it's so that people can stop worrying about

the "nader" effect or the "Perot" effect.

Mind you, some ranked voting is better than other types.

[LoZoccolo]

31. This would probably still not help the Nader problem.

I imagine the Nader people will all of a sudden find some reason to be against it if a serious bill was introduced, or they would just not put the Democratic candidate as one of their choices in the ranked voting ballot. The real serious ones pride themselves on being able to take union members, minorities, gay and lesbian citizens, and poor people, who far outnumber them, hostage to their agenda and to be an annoyance.

[GreenPartyVoter]

32. Actually, it's the current system that holds people hostage

And it is true that some Nader voters might not vote for Dems on a ranked ballot. But that is their right. Just like it is the right of Libertarians to not put Repubs in their rankings.

[LoZoccolo]

34. No it doesn't.

When 3% of the voters can wholly deepsix the interests of 48% of the voters, that's holding people hostage. If those 3% would maybe try to convince enough of the 48% that their issues are important, or even take enough time to fucking explain them already, and get the support, then you'd have democracy in action as you'd be working to make sure more people are represented by making their agenda one that more people understand and support. But as it is now, we have a game of "we'll fuck you over", a kind of electoral terrorism, for no apparent reason (I say "no apparent reason" because they still have not articulated why).

Funny you accuse the system of holding the further-left hostage - must be a pain for the further-left folks to support the interests of union members, minorities, gay and lesbian citizens, and the poor. Their whole agenda is being hijacked by these groups through the Democratic Party, apparently. :eyes:

And it is true that some Nader voters might not vote for Dems on a ranked ballot. But that is their right.

I didn't claim that it wasn't thier right, I claimed that ranked voting wouldn't solve the Nader problem. And I'm right.

[GreenPartyVoter]

37. I think you don't understand how ranked voting works

3% of the voters cannot hold anyone hostage under those systems. They are cycled out of the counting process if they aren't the majority. But at least they are counted in the first place, unlike in the current system, which is either "Vote for Nader and get Bush, or Vote for Kerry and still not get what you are looking for."

[Green Lantern]

47. Have you looked

at voter registrations lately? Here in Maine the combined total of RP and DP members is about 680,000, while there are about 438,000 registered Indies Greens etc. Your party is losing ground constantly. An estimated 8 to 11 MILLION DINOS now called Reagan Democrats have wandered away. You have lost almot 3 million potential lib/prog voters to the Green Party. About 50% of the entire electorate prefers to sit out elections rather than vote either RP or DP. Nader elicited 3% of the vote in 2k. Perot garnered about six times that in the 90's. Many of those purported Reform Party folks were actually lib/prog who chose not to vote DP again.

The DLC chose back in 1992 or so to no longer listen to lib/prog voters. Wrote off labor. (Remember the phrase from DLC leadership "Where else are they going to go?-Guess you are finding out. They ain't going Democratic.) The messages of the Greens and other third party voters has been clear. It is just that the DP has chosen to follow the money and the corporate interests, and ignore the serious issues confronting the country. Hard to talk about issues in governance when you are playing the Viet Nam/TANG tit for tat routine. Who the hell cares-we know Bushwa was AWOL. We know he should have been sent to Nam. We have been talking corporate issues-what does Kerry propose to do about the 60-70% of US corporations that pay NO taxes to the US gov.t? What was his first post convention comment? Well-gotta give the corps some tax relief. Where is the issue regarding Enron and the energy rip? Where are the planks about Arthur Anderson and accounting reform? Where are the items about the massive tax shift perpetrated on the middle and lower classes with tax relief for the wealthy and the corps? Where are the items about offshoring? Where are the items about out sourcing? They aint there, any more than dozens of other serious issues. That is why we aren't there for you. And won't likely be either, 'cuz like with the labor issue you ain't there for them either. If you truly supported labor there would be no Reagan Democrats. If you truly supported labor the new Homeland Security employees would have job securtiy, etc If you truly supported labor issues in overtime, retirement benefits and social security would not be hanging in the balance. If the DP truly supported labor the NLRB would not be a nest of repug vipers. If you truly supported labor...but then you don't so I don't imagine you are aware of the rest of labor's issues. But if you truly supported labor there would not be a growing LABOR PARTY developing. And if you were truly part of the Democratic Party you would not be posting on a board that calls itself the Democratic Underground.
Ralph didn't run in 1994-the year of the Grinch-and the DP got slammed. Ralph didn't run in 2002 and yet the DP nearly made a first in American history-LOSING seats in Congress in an off election year to the party holding the WH. Amazing-haven't figured how to blame that on Ralph yet? Putting Nader and others on the ballot is called INCLUSION. I thought that's what the DP stood for, after all - the DP has been telling a lot of folks that for years. By eliminating folks from the ballot, you are acting like the RP's in FL in 2000.
Nader ruined FL for you? Do your homework. It was easier to screw Nader supporters into voting for Kerry than it was to get the cynical non-voters. And you had to maintain the money chase, so re-aligning the platform to bring blue collars like me back in was out 'cuz you couldn't afford to alienate the Corporate gods you now pray to. Nader cost you Florida? How about not challengingthe loss of the black voters who were dis-enfranchised? How about not challenging the duplicitous RP count of absentee votes? How about not challenging the thugs who disrupted a recount that was allowed to stand instead? how about netting out the votes for Buchanan and the Taxpayer candidate who took votes from Bushwa? Easier to blame Nader than it is to face reality.
Sweat it out.

[LoZoccolo]

52. This labor argument is spurious and false.

Name me one labor union that's endorsed Nader. One!

And if nominating a "progressive" candidate (funny, to me the first eight letters are "progress" which would include not getting Bush* elected) is the answer to getting tons of people to vote, Dennis Kucinich would be our clear nominee because he would have drawn all those people to vote for him in the primary.

Nader cost you Florida? How about not challengingthe loss of the black voters who were dis-enfranchised?

How about doing both?

That whole argument is just insulting, given the resources Democrats are putting into making sure the votes count this time. I'm sick of Naderites acting like we don't do this or that when we do.

P.S. NOT ONE PERSON HAS TOLD ME HOW NADER'S RUN IS GONNA FIX ALL THE STUFF THEY COMPLAIN ABOUT, BESIDES THIS WACKED-OUT IDEA THAT THINGS WILL GET SO BAD PEOPLE WILL RUN TO A NADER-LIKE CANDIDATE, OR THE ENTIRE COUNTRY WILL COLLAPSE SO THEY CAN "REBUILD". That was Stalin's advice to German communists before Hitler got elected. That is a page from Stalin's book.

You whine about all this stuff, but then you act like you don't give a shit if things get worse for all the people you're supposedly protecting. And like I keep saying, if you spread your issues, any Democratic candidate would not be able to ignore them. That's not as easy as whining and fucking things up for other people.

[Green Lantern]

53. The simple reality

is that your DP did not work for the voters in Fl in 2k. You don't do many of the things you say you will. That's why we don't listen to a candidate-we watch what they and their party do. The DP does not have an impressive list of accomplishments. The list of non-accomplishments by the DP in FL I put up is only a partial listing, it is actually much longer.

If you want to learn what Nader would do, then get him into the debates and listen.

I will make this real simple for you. The DLC has said they can't win with a lib/prog. Now let's see if they can win without us.

(poll just released in Maine today on NPR-no citation-I was driving)

Previous poll-Kerry 49 Bush 39 undecided 10 no mention of Nader.

Today's poll Kerry 44 Bush 42 Nader 4 and undecided remaining at 10.

Maine is no longer a safe for Kerry state.

BTW I am not the one who is whining-all I hear from the DP is Nader hurt us Nader hurt us Nader hurt us.. Oh my. If you had a decent candidate and a reasonable platform instead of sucking up to forporate money...

You all got sucked into Rove's little scheme to break the lib/prog support for Kerry by trashing Nader. You are doing his job for him. Keep it up and keep sweating.

[BurtWorm]

24. Unfortunately, Dems can't pass them because Repubs are in control

of the Executive, the Legislative, and the Judicial branches of the Federal govt. It is in the Dems interest to pass electoral reforms, I agree. It won't happen anytime soon, though, because the Republicans are holding on and it will be very difficult to make them let go.

[goddess40]

25. Nadar voters

I was at the Democratic headquarters Monday and a man came in for Kerry signs. He said he had voted for Nadar last time but thought it was time to support Kerry. There are four people in his household who voted for Nadar but will be voting for Kerry this time.
My cousin was a Nadar supporter and will be voting Kerry. He also writes a weekly column for a local newspaper and tells how he has switched to Nadar as it is so important to get * out.

[GreenPartyVoter]

27. Actually, they can do it at state and municipal levels

For example, I think New Mexico is under Dem control.

[ronnykmarshall]

26. Want some cheese with that whine, Ralph?

[CornField]

29. Why does the media eat up the Nader story but continue to

ignore the other folks on the ballot who are hurting the Bushco ticket? Many of the republican people I know are fed up with Bush, but can't bring themselves to vote for Kerry... they are voting the for the Constitution Party candidate.

[quaoar]

30. Nader voters

Would rather be right than elected. Doesn't matter whether he has any chance to win. They get to maintain their purity by voting correctly on all the issues. That's more important to Nader voters than ousting Bush.

[Green Lantern]

54. Hey hey

if we didn't have atandards we'd be democrats

[Julien Sorel]

33. It seems Nadir is getting mighty

pissed at people who are "gutless." They are playing hardball, and Ralphie don't like it.

If, as some wingers in the media like to toss out on occasion, the Democratic leadership wants to lose this year so Hillary can run in 2008, why are they working so hard to keep this hangdog-looking sack off the ballots?

[zulchzulu]

35. Nader is the one that's gutless

He can't admit that he's helping Bush.

[ButterflyBlood]

36. Hey Ralph SHUT UP AND GO FUCK YOURSELF

No one with an iota of intelligence gives a shit what your absolutely worthless ass thinks. Go off and give your GOP buddies some more head you fucking waste of life.

[Doctor_J]

42. to think i used to have some respect for that guy

he's really gotten pathetic in his dotage.

[Zero Division]

45. Mistaking Insanity for Fortitude? Sounds like Ralph and his supporters

are becoming more like the Bushbot brigade everyday.

[robbedvoter]

49. Ralph, you run on ABB too - or aren't ya? Did I hear a confession?

[quaker bill]

50. Nader is sad and irrelevant.

The less attention paid to him, the better. Those who remain self-centered enough to vote for Nader in 2004 are not reachable anyway.

The few that remain will either vote for Nader, or if he is not there, then the socialist party or the green party, or perhaps just stay home.