Why lefty radicals are less than useless. They attack a Democrat who AGREES with them!!

[beachmom]

http://www.singlepayeraction.org/blog/?p=1281

This is one of those "hit" videos where someone with a camera shouts questions to a politician a la paparazzi style. And then they turn it into a hit post on the internet. So look what Senator Kerry said:

“I’m personally for single payer,” Kerry told Single Payer Action.

“But we don’t have the votes.”

But if you fought for single payer, wouldn’t you have the votes?

“No,” Kerry said. “Some people are unpersuadable on the topic. They are ideologically in a different places and we don’t have the votes.”

Wow, he supports single payer!! One of the very few in the Senate. But he has the nerve to mention the fact that in order for a bill to pass Congress, you actually need OTHER Senators to vote for it, too. It's called the legislative branch, majority rules, and all that fun stuff one learns in U.S. Government 101. Some of you may have even heard of a few of these principles from your school days. But crazy lefty shouting dimwit would rather attack elected officials that AGREE with them, then accept that our system of government is set up this way.

This is why I have to take breaks. Because insane people like "Russell" are everywhere you go on the internet.

[SemiCharmedQuark]

1. Is this the same group that is targeting Dean recently?

[beachmom]

2. Oh, I missed that one. I do know of attacks on Kerry and other Dems

for which they ignored the data from Dean's site.

[SemiCharmedQuark]

3. Here's a link about it:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=389x6164248

[beachmom]

4. Thanks. Yup, the same exact group.

I swear they act just like right winger propagandists. Sadly, they are from our side.

[karynnj]

35. They have the same name - but it is so simple I don't know if they really are

[vaberella]

112. There are a few against Dean. I've seen a few sporadic posts on this site. Single payer or bust! n/t

[slipslidingaway]

174. They are targeting Dean because he is misrepresenting the

single-payer system.

Why are people trying to discredit single-payer advocates?
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=389&topic_id=6164248&mesg_id=6164827

[beachmom]

5. Wow, at least 3 people unrec'd this post. I guess they think attacking

good Democrats with nonsense is a great idea. I think one's name should be attached to both recs and unrecs. Otherwise you can be a coward trying to knock down other people with no accountability.

[Name removed]

12. Deleted sub-thread

Sub-thread removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[hileeopnyn8d]

14. "I guess they think attacking good Democrats with nonsense is a great idea."

Sadly, we know that's true. In fact, it's almost the definition of our big tent party. And the republicans know it, feed it, and use it against us.

Just once, I'd like to see Democrats publicly unified against Republicans, while quietly resolving our differences privately.

[elocs]

76. After reading the title I was surprised to see the thread was in positive territory

based upon some of the posts I have read here.

Somehow it seems like after 8 years of Bushco that DUers and Dems are so used to being in a defensive posture, to be counter-punchers in attacking the conservatives that they've forgotten what it is like to be in power, to be in control, and how to get things done. Democrats really are like herding cats and seem to be unable to come together in a unified coalition for one purpose, but rather so many are staking out their own pet territories to the exclusion of actually getting something done.

[QC]

84. Maybe they're tired of coming to an allegedly liberal site and seeing more redbaiting

than at a John Birch Society convention in 1955.

[endarkenment]

86. I guess I thought a broad brush attack on the left was bullshit

[iamthebandfanman]

178. no,

they think you are a dumbass. thats why you only got 3 recs.

have a great day.

[DJ13]

6. The problem is that Kerry is giving in instead of forcing the other side

to give in.

It seems that in our political structure only those on the left are expected to cave in.

They never force their goals on those who are more conservative.

This isnt pragmatism, its cowardice.

[beachmom]

8. Wrong. If only 3 people in the Senate are for single payer, then it has ZERO chance

of passing.

Plus he has advocated for single payer to colleagues. They will NOT change their minds and they outnumber exponentially those who are for single payer.

[DJ13]

9. How would YOU know

....if the liberals are too frightened to try?

[beachmom]

13. They HAVE tried. I mean, seriously, have you checked out the members of the

Finance Committee? Only 3 at most are liberal on that committee.

[DJ13]

15. Show me where they tried, instead of rolling over

Seriously, we all know what needs to be done, including Congress, but theres no political will (read:bribe money from PACS) in trying to get it done.

You cant beat the bully by running away.

[beachmom]

16. Can't be shown. Killed before it would see the light of day.

[cadmium]

83. Read Paul Wellstone's book

he describes how he came to realize how it could not happen the way he wanted in the Senate.

[truedelphi]

81. You have to wonder why they wiped out over five million votes for

Kerry, stole the vote in Ohio and prevented him from being President.

Then you look at what he campaigns and fights for and you realize there was no way the PTB would ever let him in the Oval Office.

[blm]

166. You have spoken a truth that few here can wrap their brains around, true...hype moves them more than

the truth about this nation's REAL history because hype is easier to read. A few decades of those darn government reports and hearing transcripts are just sooooo boring.

[avaistheone1]

124. Only three votes for single payer in the Senate?

That is laughable. I suppose if they all have the same mentality as Kerry it is doubtful there is ever one.

[blm]

11. Then run for office and be the FOURTH senator for single payer. Or go after the DINOS and

back them down as a way to HELP the few senators who are for single payer.

[karynnj]

48. What if he already knows there are - 60 Senators who would never agree

It is not cowardice to decide not to hit your head repeatedly against a brick wall - it doesn't move the wall, it will hurt your head. Not to mention, calling a decorated war veteran, who stood up to Nixon, Reagan and the entire power elite when fighting BCCI is rather pathetic. Note that in each of these instances, he had a purpose and pursued in intelligently and relentlessly - all had real things which were achievable.

Look at this NYT editorial and consider the impact to real people if a plan meeting this broad outline is passed.

- No pre-existing conditions clause
- subsidies up to 4 times the poverty level
- the ability to get a group plan instead of the FAR more expensive individual plans if you lose your job
- broad pools that small businesses join so they are less expensive and hurt less if one employee has high costs

Those are not just pragmatic, they actually help people. You either must have secure good insurance, think you don't need it or be wealthy if you can't see the value here. Senator Kerry said politely at least 20 times as this guy stalked him on his way to giving a brilliant speech on climate change.

Maybe singlepayer action should focus on getting other Senators to agree with Kerry - I suspect that maybe another 40 or 50 are needed if there is a filibuster or only 30 or 40 if they can pass it under reconciliation - then you need to get the House in line. Following Kerry into the building to repeat the question added nothing.

As to the last question to Kerry, of course single payer eliminates the insurance companies as we know them. They would have car and home insurance and smaller add on health policies.

[Odin2005]

64. The worst thing the Boomers ever invented was the notion that throwing ideological hissy fits...

results in progressive change. Only grassroots activity (REAL activity, not getting together in a group and whining) brings change, politicians can only do so much if there is no grassroots to support it.

[truedelphi]

82. Who was out in the streets protesting the War in Iraq, both

January 1991 and January and February 2003?

Percentage wise, it was us Baby Boomers.

[Fire1]

101. Those were 'organized' hissy fits, called protest marches

(Vietnam) and worked pretty damn well, as I recall.

[Odin2005]

102. I wasn't talking about Boomer youth movements, I'm talking later.

The Boomers were very effective when they had Greatest Generation and Korean War Generation folks inspiring and organizing stuff, but as the Boomers themselves started taking over said movements things started sucking. The Boomers are good at ideas and rhetoric but suck at implementation.

[Fire1]

105. WWII people? Like who? n/t

[Odin2005]

107. McGovern

[Fire1]

108. McGovern the 'hippie?' Certainly, not George! Too conservative

as were most of that generation, black and white. That's why they liked Dr. King! He was not radical or considered 'far left' by Democrats. Republicans called him a communist.

[PufPuf23]

110. You are consistently clueless and correct only when

you mirror your betters and do not think on your own.

This is an example of your own thinking.

You have no idea what it was like to come of age during Vietnam, Selma, Stonewall, and Watergate.

Much of the dwindling diversity in our culture is because of that period.

A problem I see is little outreach to constituencies on the local level much less acurately representing constituents/grassroots at the State or National level. You are calling grassroots the whiners. I see no need to bash younger generations and see that they have a hard road ahead. Democrat Boomers are not a problem; I would wager they are the heart and soul of the grassroots and mostly ignored or labeled "far left" for being moderate New (and ever better) Deal Democrats.

That said John Kerry would be a great POTUS.

[Odin2005]

111. That you think mere whining and complaining is "grassroots" is the problem.

While us younger folks have been creating the infrastructure of the Netroots, the future of politics, you guys were complaining "why aren't you kids out in the street like we were?". The perception that we are "blind Obama-worshipers" shows that many still don't get what is going on. We aren't on the street protesting because it is not seen as the most effective way to bring change, especially since the MSM has become good at diminishing such protests and because ANSWER morans and similar types like to hijack them and make the rest of us look bad. to The Netroots is a movement, not a fan-club, Obama is just a tool, if he doesn't bring change the Netroots will turn on him. A better comparison to what the next few years will bring is not the youth movement protests of the 60s and 70s, but the grassroots economic activism of the 30s.

[truedelphi]

172. Thank you for saying this. n/t

[avaistheone1]

125. Our so called hissy fit were the national elections that put into place a democratic president,

senate and congress - who once they assumed power have completely forgotten who they are truly responsible too - the American people!! And Americans by a wide majority prefer a universal single payer health insurance system.

So they need to get their asses to work instead of behaving like the party of NO!!!!!!!

WE have organized to give these people the levers of power and they are doing absolutely nothing to change health care in any real way.

[endarkenment]

88. yup. The other side starts from an unacceptable position

and 'our' side starts from a compromised position. Guess who wins?

[avaistheone1]

123. Reminds me of how Kerry gave up the presidential election without a wimper.

I don't see much mojo in the man. Kerry has lost the bravery of his youth for sure.

[blm]

142. IranContra? BCCI? CIA drugrunning? Iraq withdrawal? Alito filibuster? You don't KNOW anything about

Kerry if you think his bravery stopped after Vietnam.

Name ONE lawmaker who has been shown more courage in uncovering and exposing the corruption of our government than Kerry has the last 35 years.

Name ONE hero lawmaker of yours in DC who actually HAS EFFECTED this nation's real history more positively than Kerry has.

[treestar]

156. Force? What do you mean?

[wyldwolf]

7. It's the "bippity boppity boo" progressives

Say the magic words and the votes will appear...

[beachmom]

10. Yup. And they have turned my post negative.

[freebrew]

19. Well, maybe it's the title.

I was ready to pounce and tell you off. 'Lefty radicals?' Please..

Just because they're idiots, you start giving them the same name as the repugs give to liberals.
Not very bright, IYAM.

As for a little information about 'lefty radicals',, if it weren't for them, we'd probably still be in Vietnam.

Cool it with the republican name attacks, please. You insult some of us that are trying.

I did not unrec your thread, either.

[karynnj]

67. As to still being in Vietnam

Maybe you should have listened to the Nixon tapes played in 2004. The Nixon administration had no concern at all about us lefty protesters. We scared the country. they wondered how the lovely children of the 1950s had mutated. The only anti-war person they ever feared was -- John Kerry. Why because he was just as polite and intelligent as he is here years later. He scared them because he offered the same assessment that the war was being continued to save politician's faces - but he did it as a decorated war hero, who was eloquent, intelligent and, as one book on the antiwar movement said, the kind of guy you would want a son or the boy next door to be. That was why people were willing to hear what he said - and why Nixon hated him and wanted to destroy him.

Believe me, as an 18 year old I thought nominating Pigasus (sp?) was hilarious, but Abby Hoffman and Jerry Rubin scared our parents.

[blm]

146. There were lefties protesting Vietnam peacefully and some plotting to bomb buildings who made it

harder for the issues of peaceful protestors to be heard.

Why are so many here refusing to see there is a difference between lefties and radicals? Radicals use the wrong approach to issues.

Those shooting at lawmakers who tend to agree with them are WRONG and their approach of using the internet to target a lawmaker like Kerry for blame is wrong.

[MadHound]

20. You lay out flamebait and then blame others for turning your post negative?

:rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl:

Poor picked upon you :rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl:

Look, if you want to have a civil discussion on this issue, fine. Next time try being civil yourself and knock off the ad hominems like leftist radicals and crazy lefty.

[beachmom]

25. Well, pardon me for thinking cooler minds on DU would agree

that this dumb organization is absurd.

They are crazy left. That does not mean left leaning thinkers are crazy.

I mean how crazy do I need to go for you to agree that there is a crazy left out there?

[MadHound]

30. I checked out your link

Frankly I think that you doth protest too much.

The person was wanting answers as to why single payer isn't being pushed. In fact it is this sort of questioning and demands for action that actually get issues before the Congress. It isn't crazy, it's how our political system works.

What, you don't think that we should push for single payer? You don't think that we shouldn't demand action from our representatives on issues that matter to us?

Sounds to me like you just want those you disagree with to sit down and shut up. Sorry, but the meaningful reforms in this country weren't achieved by those who were polite, for those who sat down and shut up. If we had followed your path, hell we'd still have slavery in this country.

[beachmom]

42. I think the push is now for the public option. So to me it is a wasted

effort to get into single payer now.

Oh, and thanks for saying my way means slavery. That was charming.

[MadHound]

47. No, sorry, the ultimate goal is single payer

Thus it isn't wasted.

Oh, and stop trying to put words in my mouth. You know as well as I do that what I was illustrating was if we sat down and shut up like you want us to do, nothing gets accomplished.

But once again, you're trying to play the poor widdle victim, even though you originally posted this insulting POS flamebait, complete with personal insults.

[beachmom]

52. I am not a victim. And I never played one. I am expressing my

very strong opinion about elements of the far Left which I really, really can't stand. It's not personal. And there is nothing personal in my post.

And single payer is not going to happen. At least not for the next 50 years. And I have seen successful universal health care plans in Europe that are not single payer, but are heavily regulated: check out Holland, Germany and France. We don't have to be like Canada or England. We can grab aspects of all of these different countries. So there you go: I don't even agree with Sen. Kerry. But he agrees with that org, yet they still attack him. It is dumb.

[MadHound]

56. Not playing a victim?

Look up and down this board at your answers, your complaints about unrecs, your comments. You are indeed playing the victim here, yet now have the gall to try and deny it:rofl:

But you are right, single payer is probably not going to happen, at least not until we take corporate money out of government. Thus we need to push publicly financed elections, or is that too far left for you?

[beachmom]

62. Okay, I don't like the anonymous "unrec" button. There you go.

[Raineyb]

78. I unrecced it too.

I thought it was the usual bullshit left baiting and the idea that daring to ask questions of our representatives is somehow out of line is an asinine one.

[inna]

119. so did i, for the same reasons. i'm sick and tired of redbaiting. nt

[QC]

122. So did I -- I'm tired of the constant red-baiting. n/t

[PVnRT]

153. Me, too

The question wasn't disrespectful, the questioner wanted to know something. How horrible.

The reactions on this thread agreeing with the OP say volumes about how some people think we should all act - don't ask questions, don't think, just agree with what you're told and vote the way they want you to.

[avaistheone1]

135. I unrecommended it too. I find her comments about the far left

and the crazy left truly offensive.

Beachmom has been knocking single-payer for a long time now. Beachmom regularly posts right wing talking points on health care reform like the supposed need for tort reform, and that a public option is too expensive. She is someone who I don't trust in terms of defining the left, or in terms of much of anything at this point.

[unapatriciated]

138. "at least not until we take corporate money out of government"

that is exactly what the "crazy leftist" got Senator Kerry to acknowledge. Getting those in power (especially the ones who support single payer) to acknowledge that, opens the dialog for an honest discussion. Thank you for pointing that out.
I have been advocating for single payer since 1991 and will continue to do so no matter what names are hurled my way. I guess crazy leftist could be considered a step up from dirty hippie.

On a personal note I went through hell (15 years) when my son became ill in 1991 fighting my Insurance Company and finally having to sell my home. My son ended up disabled due to the constant delays and interruptions in medical care. This was a direct result of of the Insurance Industry due to denial of claims and my personal favorite the almighty "Review". So they can call me any name they wish I will continue to advocate for single payer. The name calling and worse didn't stop me in the 60's and 70's frankly it just makes me stronger.

[Raineyb]

75. In other words you've capitulated and you're mad at the people who

have decided that it's better to keep fighting. It looks like the problem is yours not theirs.

[karynnj]

72. i think there could have been a more productive interview

For instance,
after he said there were not enough votes, why not ask how many people he thinks favor it in the Senate or how many are ideologically against it. That would show how unlikely it really is - with new inside information.

Then maybe ask if he thinks that the public option will win out in the Senate and how close that is. maybe with a follow up asking whether there was anything activists could do to help. Kerry once was an activist.

What was the point asking the questions repeatedly - die they thing that the Kerry's estimate of the votes would change if they asks again?

[avaistheone1]

128. What about all your negative posts about single payer you have posted

on others threads over the last couple months? Did you think no one noticed?

Seems like the pot is calling the kettle black.

[iamthebandfanman]

179. damn , have a lil

personal sense of responsibility would ya?

OTHERS made your post negative?

riiiiight.


i guess de nile aint just a river in egypt after all.

[avaistheone1]

126. Yeah well watch our votes remove these asses from power. Poof!!!

[wyldwolf]

151. That will never happen.

[MadHound]

17. Ooo, those scary "crazy leftist radicals" daring to question their represenatatives.

Daring to push for some sort of action on issues that they want to see move forward. Gee, shame on those lefty radicals for exercise their constitutional right to lobby for action on an issue that they hold dear.

Gee, you know what, if it wasn't for "leftist radicals" you wouldn't be sitting there enjoying such fine government services such as Social Security and Unemployment Insurance, Women's Rights and Civil Rights.

So I suppose you just want people to sit down and shut up, be good little drones who never question their so called leaders, just shut up and take what's given to them.

Fuck that, we need more people who question their leaders, more people demanding action from their representatives.

Oh, and one other thing that you left out in your snip, where Kerry hints at what the real reason for no single payer:

"“No,” Kerry said. “Some people are unpersuadable on the topic. They are ideologically in a different places and we don’t have the votes.”

Just admit it, Senator Kerry, single payer would put the insurance companies out of business.

“Yes it would,” Kerry admits as he gets on the elevator at the National Press Building."

Next stop for you, go over to Open Secrets <http://www.opensecrets.org> and check out how many millions the insurance industry deposits in the pockets of Senators and Congress members (the insurance industries made Kerry's top ten, hmmm)

[beachmom]

21. Kerry was our party's nominee in 2004. He received more money in every category

than any other Democrat in the Senate. I mean, seriously, are you that gullible that you fall for the brain dead far left line which UNDERCUTS good Democrats while I see Chuck Schumer being propped up for creating a public option petition website? Are you going to seriously argue that a former nominee for President doesn't need to raise a tad more money than a Senate candidate? John Kerry is the most liberal member of the Finance committee, and has tirelessly advocated for the public option, while extolling the virtues of single payer which not ONE member of that committee will support.

And sorry, this is BS:

Gee, you know what, if it wasn't for "leftist radicals" you wouldn't be sitting there enjoying such fine government services such as Social Security and Unemployment Insurance, Women's Rights and Civil Rights.

We have things like this because we had leaders like MLK and Susan B. Anthony who understood how to advocate a position and to bring about a sea change of opinion. This sorry organization that is so smug going after Kerry will persuade NO ONE.

[MadHound]

38. First of all, I wasn't talking about the money that Kerry raised in '04

I'm talking about the money that he raised during his last Senate campaign. Again, go to Open Secrets and check for yourself

Second of all, you have no clue about history. Left me fill this in gap in your knowledge.

Back during FDR's first term he was truly scared by the electoral threat posed by those lefty radicals, the Socialist party. He wasn't afraid that they would beat him out, but that they would take enough votes to throw the elections to the Republicans. In order to prevent this, FDR lifted a couple of planks from the Socialist platform, namely Social Security (then called Old Age Insurance) and Unemployment Insurance. He made them his own, pushed them through Congress and thus two of our most cherished government programs became reality, all due to the actions and pressure applied by those "leftist radicals"

Furthermore, back in the day, both Susan B. Anthony and MLK were considered leftist radicals by the majority of the population. MLK was thought to be Communist by many people(some who continue to believe that to this day) and frankly Civil Right legislation wouldn't haven't gotten through the Congress except for the fact that "leftist radicals" like MLK and others pushed the issue to the forefront, forcing Kennedy to deal with it.

Go read your history, go educate yourself. You'll find that lefty radicals have done a hell of lot for this country, despite naysayers like yourself.

[beachmom]

44. I have read my history. And I know what my parents tell me. They LIKED MLK.

He appealed to the masses. This group and their tactics? No way.

And in case you have missed it, the concerted effort now is for the public option.

[MadHound]

54. Well gee, I guess that you really didn't pay attention

Here's a good place to start,

The Children by David Halberstam
Right Wing Populism in America by Matthew Lyons and Chris Berlet

You know what your parents tell you, well, that's a pretty limited knowledge base. Try reading John Lewis' autobiography, talk to people who actually lived through that time period, who were in the thick of things, not just those who watched it unfold in the comfort of their living room. Kennedy wasn't a saint, he and Johnson both had to be pushed hard in order to get Civil Rights legislation on the books. And yes, MLK was villified by most of the public during the fifties and into the sixties.

Oh, and in case you missed it, it looks like there's a great chance we won't even get the public option.

[beachmom]

65. Re: the public option. Yeah, especially when single payer radicals

are too busy harrassing Senators who agree with them, instead of trying to organize by getting people to call from states with Senators on the fence.

It's tactics here. Those people are stupid and have no sense of strategy.

[MadHound]

68. These people have a bigger picture in mind

Their tactics, their strategy isn't yours. They are pushing for single payer. Frankly I agree with them and find this heathcare "reform" to be tepid at best (if there is a public option) and a nightmare at worst(if, as is increasingly likely we don't get the public option). Therefore they are pushing for what a large group of people truly want, single payer.

This is how issues get advanced, how politics is played in this country, I've shown you a couple of examples of that upthread. You may not like it, but the fact of the matter is that these people aren't crazy, they aren't stupid, they just don't happen to agree with your point of view.

[karynnj]

79. Even if your goal and there's is single payer,

once Kerry said he was for it - why not go over to the rest of the Congress. What good does harrassing him do?

Your comments to Beachmom are completely arrogant.

[karynnj]

77. There is no way this group is even close to MLK or Susan B Anthony

not close.

I went to open secrets, it says Kerry got $90,000 in donations from the insurance industry. Are you seriously claiming that HUGE amount could affect his position. It is also hard to argue, quid por quo, when he is not taking the position they would want.

[Fire1]

103. LBJ ultimately dealt with it. I never considered MLK far left

and neither did many others. Far left radicals were activists like Malcolm X, H. Rap Brown, Angela Davis, etc.

[saltpoint]

109. Agree. King inhabited the Judeo-Christian Center. He

provided the modern caption for its images in startlingly forceful language.

But I think you've gauged it exactly right.

[avaistheone1]

127. Kerry the good Democrat that was only too willing to concede the election to Bush.

What a fighter. rflmao

[blm]

22. Kerry's FOR single payer - those lefty activists never seem to be ABLE to get near DINOS and GOPs

(ya think they're AFRAID of them?)so they target those who AGREE with them and rake them over the coals, instead of showing REAL toughness and running for office on their core issue themselves.

Staking out only those senators you know are liberal enough to listen to you AND agree with your issue, and then attacking them in print, shows the same level of courage and integrity as Palin using a helicopter to shoot wolves.

[MadHound]

39. Mmm hmm, sounds like more bullshit to me

Got anything to back up that assertion of yours. Seems to me it's "lefty radicals" like Code Pink and MoveOn who were buttonholing members of the Bush administration. But you conveniently forgot that.

[beachmom]

49. Oh, yeah "General Betray Us" was SOOO effective. Yeah, right.

It was actually Senator Kerry's Iraq plan in 2006, which was later endorsed by the bipartisan Iraq Study Group which got things moving in our direction. It was the sensible ideas that stewed which got us where we are now. Moveon is best for grassroots efforts in winning elections. I participated in one of their parties, and it was fun.

[MadHound]

58. Got things moving in our direction?

What direction is that, ongoing occupation of Iraq for the foreseeable future (and please don't say that Obama is pulling us out of Iraq, 50,000-100,000 troops are going to remain behind for the foreseeable future in order to "fight terrorists" and "train Iraqi troops".

And please, Kerry voted for the Iraq war, and now we're doubling down in another illegal, immoral war in Afghanistan.

Mmm-hmm, more moderate "success"

[blm]

53. I'm one of those activists, MH...it's the ones who shoot at good guys because they won't get

close enough to take a shot at the really bad guys who I'm speaking of and you know it.

[MadHound]

60. No, I don't know it, and I don't know you, except for what you post here

And frankly what I've seen from you, you utterly abhor the left. And like I asked you, how do you know that these people haven't buttonholed Republicans and the like? Oh, that's right, you don't know, you're just ass-u-me-ing.

[karynnj]

69. Seeing that they create Youtubes, can you find any

with say Max Baucus? How about Orrin Hatch? Kent Conrad? If there are any, I couldn't find them, maybe you are better at that than I am.

[blm]

93. That's so fullofit....Ive never taken after the left...I will note those who try to grandstand and

shoot wildly at the WRONG TARGETS while they stay QUIET and UNCONFRONTATIONAL with the fascists.

[unapatriciated]

139. we do go after the really bad guys...

I have written, called, protested and helped with local dems campaign against J. Isakson and Chambliss. We will never get their support nor do we need their votes at this unique time in history.

[wisteria]

106. Yeah, how about that! So, they go after the one Senator who is open and honest with them.n/t

[treestar]

157. Exactly, if those DINOS KNEW that the voters wanted single payer

It might be the result of contact from those who vote who want it.

[karynnj]

74. Nice twist there

A hefty part of Kerry's contributions came from individuals working for the industry when he was the nominee in 2004. Kerry followed Dean in opting out of public financing. I would assume that Dean's numbers in the medical/insurance field are pretty high too. Less high, because he never became the candidate. If Opensecret.org thought about it, they should include only the contributions for Senate and Congressional races and maybe, in there list, also account for number of races. Any statistician will tell you that raw data often needs to analyzed intelligently. IIn 2004, Kerry was said to have been the first Senator to run 4 Senate campaigns with no PAC money - he wrote a finance bill with Wellstone.)

Kerry's answer there was unforced and direct. It is a fact that the insurance business would contract to insuring homes and cars and various and sundry other things. Kerry actually moved to be visible giving that answer.

[inna]

120. +1. i agree with this and other posts of yours on this thread. nt

[treestar]

158. Persuade the people who disagree, including fellow voters, might

be more useful than putting down the people who agree.

It's just crying because someone else alone can't do it for you. Such people would apparently be fine with a leftist dictator who could force everybody. That's not how this country is.

[fishwax]

18. not much of an attack there

The questions that they asked aren't really unreasonable and aren't "gotcha" questions. I don't really see much of an attack there.

And another thing (since you're whining upthread about this thread getting unrecommended)--I'll go ahead and attach my name to one of those, owing to the silly extrapolation that this video shows that "lefty radicals" are "less than useless."

[MadHound]

24. Don't you get it, daring to question any Dem is considered sacrilege.

I think I'll join you in unreccing this flamebait POS.

But hey, it is a glimpse into how centerist Dems truly think about their allies on the left. Makes one wonder why we should stick around. After all, it's not like we're even getting a bone thrown our way by this administration.

[blm]

32. The REASON she said what she said is the energy used against Dems ON your side should be directed

against those Dems AGAINST your issue.

She's right - the energy used to attack Kerry and Dean the last few weeks has been a collosal waste when there are so many DINOs escaping attention under the radar.

But....you don't see alot of these activists targeting them for confrontations, do you?


If you CAN'T attack the ones you should, then attack the ones you're with?

[fishwax]

40. the engergy used against "Lefty Radicals" who pose legitimate questions to elected officials and

then post said officials answers on the Internet could also be directed at more useful targets :shrug:

[MadHound]

43. How do you know that those "lefty radicals" aren't doing just what you said?

In fact back during the Bush administration, I distinctly remember it was the left that was going after Bush, while centerists, moderates and blue dogs were rolling over and pissing on themselves in fear at the very mention of the the name Bush. Iraq War, roll over, Patriot Act I and II, roll over, on and on it went and the only ones out there in the streets were the anti-war left.

By the by, are you telepathic or something? How come you're giving out answers for the OP when she is perfectly capable of doing so herself. Oh, yeah, that famous centerist gang tactic:eyes:

[blm]

55. Yeah right - you KNOW I'm no centrist just as you know Kerry isn't, but you shoot first and

pretend otherwise.

[MadHound]

63. Kerry voted for the Iraq War, funding the war, the Patriot Act both I and II

And frankly, if that's left, then Jesus H. Christ on a pogo stick, I must be a Communist.

[blm]

92. His lifetime voting record was most left of ANY Dem candidate in history, including Kucinich

and he stood AGAINST the invasion of Iraq - as he SAID he would - when weapon inspectors were reporting back that force was not needed. No other aye vote did that and none would stand with him during the campaign with his position that the invasion was wrong - they were siding with Bush and war.

He did NOT vote for funding which was the source of much disparaging during the campaign - or did you forget that, too?

He is STILL the one lawmaker who has uncovered and exposed more government corruption than any other lawmaker in modern history, and YOU can't stand him for it while the mewly pissants mew, mew, mew and whine and join the fascists in undermining Kerry every chance they can.

FOCK THAT!

[avaistheone1]

130. Who says he is ranked as the most left?

The Heritage Foundation? The Washington Times?

Consider the source.

[blm]

143. when he ran in 2003 his lifetime voting % was closest to Wellstone's of any Dem primary candidate.

People forget the many years Kucinich sided with the GOP on social issues, including reproductive rights and flagburning. I supported him since the 70s and even when my fellow feminists were deriding him in the 90s for his positions.

If DU was around then, Dennis Kucinich would be a loathed figure here. I stuck with him because I understood his background and his reasons for his positions.

[karynnj]

173. The Patriot Act (both I and II) had a huge amount of Kerry written legislation

designed to make international transfer of money more transparent to allow following the money on terrorists - it has been one of the few things we got right. Only Feingold voted against it the first time. Kerry joined filibusters twice as they removed most of the worst parts on the Patriot Act I - when they had all they could get, Kerry and others voted for it -- because the alternative was keeping Patriot Act 1 in place. Kerry was among those who attached an exit plan on the funding bill - which Bush vetoed.

[spiritual_gunfighter]

51. I unrec'ed it too

Your points were great. With friends like these who needs enemies. I guess we wouldn't want the "loony left" to come in and mess things up for all those Senators lining their pockets with money from the insurance industry.

[beachmom]

61. That's what I say about this "Single Payer" group. They are not friends.

They don't want anything meaningful passed. Otherwise they wouldn't behave the way they are.

[spiritual_gunfighter]

71. They want a single payer system

which is very meaningful. You may disagree with their tactics but to frame them as the "looney left" and claim that they are the problem is attacking the wrong people. Kerry claims that we don't have the votes, which may be true right now but why consider it a dead issue without a fight. A previous thread asked you to check out how many of these so called "single payer supporters" are receiving money from the same industry that want to kill the single payer plan. You see this as the "far left" causing problems and detracting from our cause, I see the problem being members of the Senate in a major conflict of interest.

[karynnj]

80. Why consider it a dead issue if we don't have the votes now,

because they want to pass legislation that will help in the next few months. This is not the case of being 2 or 3 votes short with people you can persuade - this is in the "not happening" category.

[beachmom]

26. That is my point! Their attack is silly!! Why waste their time going after

someone who agrees with them? Because they are C-R-A-Z-Y.

[fishwax]

31. their "attack" isn't an attack

I don't see them "going after" him or putting a "hit" piece on the Internet. I just see them asking him legitimate questions.

[bigjohn16]

23. Radical Lefties?

This place has become Bizarro DU. Attacking a person who is engaging a public servant about something that affects him and he's the bad guy. Ok.

[beachmom]

28. Okay, I'll remember that the next time the right wing crazies do the same thing.

The dude was pulling a stunt, not "engaging".

[bigjohn16]

70. That you don't see a difference between the two tells me all I need to know.

He's fighting for something he believes in and you throw "lefty" at him like a weapon when it's actually something to be proud of.

[Amos Moses]

94. Strange to see people at DU refer to leftists the same way

Fox "News" and Rush Limbaugh refer to us. Those radical lefties are gonna destroy our country!

It's no wonder our country is in such bad shape. Both parties are filled with Republicans.

[avaistheone1]

132. That is a fact. Looks like there is no longer even a Democratic wing to the Democratic party.

This country is shot.

[blm]

144. She didn't point to leftists...she specified RADICALS. They aim at WRONG TARGETS just to shoot.

.

[bigjohn16]

159. The title says "Lefty Radicals"

So yes the OP did point to leftists. All he did was ask why single payer wasn't on the table why is that so offensive to people?

[blm]

165. I'm a lefty and NOT a radical. I know RWs who aren't radical RWs. If you don't get the difference

then....good luck in your attempts at arguing your point.

[bigjohn16]

168. So asking a Senator why single payer isn't on the table now makes someone a radical.

If asking a Senator a few questions makes someone a radical then our definition of radical is vastly different and what a scary world the people who agree with the OP must live in. Radicals all around asking questions and sharing their opinions!

[blm]

169. No - asking the question respectfully doesn't make one a radical. Twisting what he said to make him

to be an enemy is stupid, gonetoofar radicalism that doesn't HELP the issue which is supposed to be the motivating factor in these confrontations.

Kerry gave that guy some REAL information about what is blocking singlepayer - they don't even have enough votes to get it into a discussion within committee - and the guy decided to twist it and use it against.....Kerry.

[BlooInBloo]

27. They're like children closing their eyes throwing a tantrum, not caring who they hit...

Even if it's people who agree with them on the merits of single-payer.

They're just emoragers.

[Oregone]

34. Yes, uninsured, bankrupt, sick, dying, desperate children

Despicable, eh?

[BlooInBloo]

36. Howard Dean went thataway!

------->

[anonymous171]

29. They need to attack the GOP and scare them into voting for the more moderate public option.

Worked in the 1930s.

[BlooInBloo]

33. Pfft. That would involve them doing something USEFUL and PRACTICAL...

You clearly have no idea at all what they're about.

:P

[Hippo_Tron]

37. I rec'd this even though you probably shouldn't use the term "radical lefty"

I just think too many people think that getting single-payer passed is as simple as calling our congresspeople and asking for it. If it were that simple it would've been done already. When somebody shows me even the beginnings of a decent strategy to get single-payer passed in this congress I'll be fully on board. But no such strategy exists, at least right now.

[PVnRT]

41. How is this a "stunt" or an "attack"?

The guy asked a legitimate question and got a legitimate answer. Oh heavens! :eyes:

[frylock]

45. why don't you mix in a reference to commie pinko hippies while you're whining

knu

[QC]

87. I rather like "Godless communists" myself. n/t

[endarkenment]

89. godless homosexual commie bastard hippy drug addicts.

I cannot understand why anyone would unrec this thread.

[QC]

90. ChiComs!

How's that for some delightfully retro redbaiting?

[damntexdem]

46. Yes, single-payer is needed; but we can't get it now, so we should demand a public option ...

available to all. But the nonsense emerging from the bipartisan group in the senate deserves no support at all -- in fact, must be defeated. Hopefully, the House will include a public option and then hold out for it in Conference Committee. If a bill hits the Presidents desk that omits a public option, that bill should be vetoed. Passage of such a monstrosity would be worse than no bill at all -- it would, in fact, worsen the healthcare system in the U.S.

[beachmom]

50. Well, Finance has to reconcile with the more liberal HELP committee.

I am not going to worry about Finance. Only pieces of their plan will survive the whole process.

[Odin2005]

57. I'm of the exact same opinion as Senator Kerry.

“No,” Kerry said. “Some people are unpersuadable on the topic. They are ideologically in a different places and we don’t have the votes.”

Kerry NAILS it. The so-called "Progressives" show themselves to be idiots, again.

[avaistheone1]

134. Actually it is the Senators who are the idiots and Kerry is the leader of the band.

The Senators should be following the will of the people. Furthermore single-payer health insurance is the most effective and fiscally responsible remedies to the health care crisis in this country.

No other industrialized country is without a health plan for its people.

And no other industrialzed country allows health insurance companies to be profit-making entities.

I wish Kerry could be a leader and hold some influence instead of being so willing to cave in as usual. What ever happen to that young man of principle who testified before Congress? Where are his cajones?

Will he stand on principle and be one the so called three votes, or will he be a shill for the insurance companies and pharma?

What would Kerry know about people suffering without health care anyhow? He was born with a silver spoon in his mouth. He has no idea how even the middle class who pay for their own insurance are stuggling to handle health insurance premiums. Kerry has no idea whatsoever.

[karynnj]

147. Kerry is a leader, but he can't lead on everything in a 100 person Senate

Kennedy is the one who led the liberal wing of the Democrats, backed by Dodd. He has the leadership of the HELP committee. Kerry is leading on Foreign policy and climate control.

No one, not Kennedy, not Kerry, not Sanders can lead the Senate to enact single payer. The Senator is being honest when he says, that simply does not have the votes. I would hope that he leads by providing whatever support he can to Kennedy's plan. There is no one in teh Senate who has actually been involved in getting more healthcare coverage passed than Kennedy. Kennedy is the most successful legislator in the history of the Senate. There is no doubt of his motivation - he has worked in DC or in Cape Cod with his staffers through Senate recesses whenever his health is up to it. Kennedy is an expert on creating bills that can do the most of anything that can pass. Kerry could best lead doing what he has - supporting the public option, possibly more publicly.

Kerry does know that people are suffering - he spoke in 2004 and afterward of people telling him heartbreaking stories. I agree that Kerry never had to worry about health insurance personally. Though he had Senate health insurance, he did have the experience of having a very tight budget for the first decade he was in the Senate. There are very few people in government who did.(That includes John Edwards who was a millionaire at a relatively young age. Two of the three people who did the most last century to help the poor were wealthy - FDR, who incidentally is a distant relative of Kerry's and Ted Kennedy. The other was LBJ. You do not have to experience something personally to know there is a problem.

Kerry was willing to lead on Kerry/Feingold when it didn't have the votes. That effort eventually led to Democratic consensus on an exit plan. This was not done at the expense of something else which could have passed and changed the course of the war. Here, Kerry leading a futile campaign to get single payer would be at the expense of the achievable Kennedy plan, which Kerry supports. The fact is that that bill and the House bills will really help people. Here's a NYT editorial that neatly lies out some of what those bills do - http://www.nytimes.com/2009/07/26/opinion/26sun1.html?pagewanted=1&_r=2

It would seem that his biggest contributions should be - working to get the best bill he can out of the Senate and then using his articulate voice to push it.

[Odin2005]

150. You proved my point.

It's not Kerry's fault that the Blue Dogs can't be argued with. You can keep spouting rhetoric, but it does nothing when it doesn;t fit the political reality, that reality being that right now there are too many fake Dems getting in the way.

[blm]

167. Yep - too many FAKE Dems and some on the left want the real Dems blamed.

.

[TheKentuckian]

59. I don't see them as particularly extreme to the left but as radicalized and blind to the process

They don't actually hold any view that is that out whack (for the most part, save some that are authoritarian) but more that reality is not something they are comfortable confronting. Trying to shove something through with five votes is fucking stupid and makes you lose all functional credibility. That might build street cred with a small minority but you get written off as a loon.

[mix]

66. Lefty radical here, glad I now know where we stand.

:hi:

[donco6]

113. Me too.

Now I know there's no point in attempting persuasion. Some people are "unpersuadeable." Right.

[cadmium]

73. Kerry is telling the truth. the way that

this ostensibly pro single-payor web site deals with the truth makes me DOUBT their intentions.

right-on Beachmom

[Jennicut]

85. You can be for single payer but not attack good Dems like Kerry and Dean

Sometimes I wonder why I want to hit my head against the wall some mornings...

[ObamaKerryDem]

91. If these people had even bothered to listen to JK's words, they'd see he's on our side on this..

Acknowledging the reality of the inner workings of the system is NOT "caving in". It's just the difference between pragmatism and idealism.

"Eating our own", so to speak, will not help us defeat the Repubs and Blue Dogs on this. We need to keep focusing on the bigger picture. I think that's what JK was getting at here. :)

[frylock]

95. this is worse than that time that mean old katie couric attacked sarah palin

[depakid]

96. Single payer is rational- not "lefty"

and the frustration at the inability to pass RATIONAL policy that ACTUALLY SOLVES PROBLEMS due to ideology is understandable.

Sadly, you are right- the way America is set up via its constitution, and due to several Supreme Court decisions- the problems are structural, and likely to go for a long time unresolved.

[ProSense]

97. Good clip. Thanks for posting. n/t

[cornermouse]

98. just my opinion, but I think public option

is a combination of a bone thrown to make it look like they're doing something worthwhile and short circuiting any future attempts to get single payer passed. The way I see it, if you aren't going to support what I want, you can't expect me to come running because you want help only to throw me back under the bus when my "usefulness" has come to an end.

It don't work that way.

[ipaint]

99. The lefty radicals brought medicare to Canada

Tommy Douglas was a lefty radical facing much the same pushback that you see here on DU and from conservatives and the medical industry. Took him and his supporters 15 years but they didn't give up or give in.

The hardcore centrists will be the death of this country. They are so busy protecting their own financial interest and those above them that the majority of working class and poor americans below them get table scraps at best and are expected to be thankful and silent. The last 35 years of centrist policy got us here.

What we need, because of the current total void of a leader with balls, is a progressive third party, similar to Douglas's democratic socialist in Canada. The center is way too conservative to affect any change beyond a impossibly contorted attempt to re-invent the wheel while protecting the status quo. It's painful to watch this current display of arrogance. As if centrism = some advanced form of maturity. The important changes in this country never came from centrists.

I hope you keep it up, though, the policies that emerge as a result of puny incremental change, mostly backwards, have been disastrous to the middle class and working class ranks are swelling. It's only a matter of time before a critical mass of people get angry enough, having been forced to watch their children suffer and their loved ones die, to demand change and rally behind a real progressive to get it.

Working class and poor americans aren't lazy, most survive in working and living conditions the much pandered to middle class wouldn't allow their dogs to suffer through. The only reason we are getting this faux health reform is because the middle class is whining loudly as a result of getting a taste of what the working class and below have been dealing with for 30 years. It would be laughable if it wasn't so cruel that the only thing that will come of this is creating working class criminals through an asinine mandate to buy private health care and a weak to non-existent public option that causes more pain and suffering in it's pathetically neutered version.

So fiddle around with health care making things so ridiculously complicated and convince yourselves your accomplishing something, pat yourselves on the back for "helping" all us lower class folk. In the meantime the radical lefties will do what Tommy Douglas did and never settle for less, confront the wealthy pampered centrist politicians and supporters of both parties and talk to anyone and everyone about what real reform looks like and how to accomplish it.



"“Civil disobedience is not our problem. Our problem is civil obedience. Our problem is that people all over the world have obeyed the dictates of leaders…and millions have been killed because of this obedience…Our problem is that people are obedient allover the world in the face of poverty and starvation and stupidity, and war, and cruelty. Our problem is that people are obedient while the jails are full of petty thieves… (and) the grand thieves are running the country. That’s our problem.”
"
— Howard Zinn

[ipaint]

100. Mouseland

Mouseland (As told by Tommy Douglas in 1944)


It's the story of a place called Mouseland. Mouseland was a place where all the little mice lived and played, were born and died. And they lived much the same as you and I do.

They even had a Parliament. And every four years they had an election. Used to walk to the polls and cast their ballots. Some of them even got a ride to the polls. And got a ride for the next four years afterwards too. Just like you and me. And every time on election day all the little mice used to go to the ballot box and they used to elect a government. A government made up of big, fat, black cats.

Now if you think it strange that mice should elect a government made up of cats, you just look at the history of Canada for last 90 years and maybe you'll see that they weren't any stupider than we are.

Now I'm not saying anything against the cats. They were nice fellows. They conducted their government with dignity. They passed good laws--that is, laws that were good for cats. But the laws that were good for cats weren't very good for mice. One of the laws said that mouseholes had to be big enough so a cat could get his paw in. Another law said that mice could only travel at certain speeds--so that a cat could get his breakfast without too much effort.

All the laws were good laws. For cats. But, oh, they were hard on the mice. And life was getting harder and harder. And when the mice couldn't put up with it any more, they decided something had to be done about it. So they went en masse to the polls. They voted the black cats out. They put in the white cats.
Now the white cats had put up a terrific campaign. They said: "All that Mouseland needs is more vision." They said:"The trouble with Mouseland is those round mouseholes we got. If you put us in we'll establish square mouseholes." And they did. And the square mouseholes were twice as big as the round mouseholes, and now the cat could get both his paws in. And life was tougher than ever. And when they couldn't take that anymore, they voted the white cats out and put the black ones in again. Then they went back to the white cats. Then to the black cats. They even tried half black cats and half white cats. And they called that coalition. They even got one government made up of cats with spots on them: they were cats that tried to make a noise like a mouse but ate like a cat.
You see, my friends, the trouble wasn't with the colour of the cat. The trouble was that they were cats. And because they were cats, they naturally looked after cats instead of mice.
Presently there came along one little mouse who had an idea. My friends, watch out for the little fellow with an idea. And he said to the other mice, "Look fellows, why do we keep on electing a government made up of cats? Why don't we elect a government made up of mice?" "Oh," they said, "he's a Bolshevik. Lock him up!"

So they put him in jail.

But I want to remind you: that you can lock up a mouse or a man but you can't lock up an idea.

http://www.saskndp.com/history/mouseland.php3

[saltpoint]

104. Attacks from the outside, no matter how heart-felt or eloquently

delivered, do not IMO eclipse the hard work going on inside by elected officials who must forge alliances with people they disagree with.

The model of political realism obtains: a deep-blue back-east Congressional District does not generate parallel representation with significantly red or purple rural districts. Cobbling legislation must be done with others, not alone. The collective voice speaks for the realistic model.

[Naturyl]

114. Kerry is a good man and props to him for favoring single payer.

But there is nothing wrong with asking why he isn't fighting tooth and nail for it.

Personally, I think Kerry's answer is correct. The votes simply do not exist. But there's nothing wrong with asking the question.

[natrat]

115. and you believe him just because he says it? i got a bridge to sell you

and he will vote for some plan involving co ops,and mandating you buy coverage and insurance company stocks are now skyrocketing---nothing would be better than this

[Naturyl]

117. Yes, I believe the votes don't exist.

They just don't. They ought to, and there's no excuse for it, but they don't.

Single-payer would not pass. This is America, where we have the best Congress money can buy.

[karynnj]

129. Kerry has a multi decade record on healthcare - and he is aligned with Kennedy

What is clear is that he will fight for the best plan possible - as one of 100 Senators. He and Kennedy wrote the precursor bill for SCHIP. Of course, neither Kennedy or Kerry will refuse to vote for any bill that is a major improvement on what we have.

As to believing, mocking those of us who trust Kerry to work for the best VIABLE plan, you have a huge amount of chutzpah. After all you were willing to believe, with far LESS backup from his record - which included being a Democrat almost as centrist as Baucus. Edwards voted for the bankruptcy bill. (Yet, with that record of being as corporate favoring a Democrat as one could find - you were willing to believe he was the one to fight them. You are the one that would have bought any bridge offered.)

Yes, I do believe that Kerry believes this - I also assume that he will actually work on the bill - and yes, if it includes many features that seem accepted by everyone, it will be better than what we have.

[Mass]

116. I will have to disagree with you on two points

1/ Because you disagree with one group does not justify blasting the lefty radicals, whatever it means. Without them, we would not be talking about a public option. We would probably try to see how we can help private insurances be more affordable, or how to get people into the Federal Health Program, or how to reinsure catastrophic illnesses so that the private insurances do not have too much to spend. The lefties pushed the debate to the left and it is good.

2/ I am happy that Kerry supports single payer. I am his constituent and it is the second times in 9 years I hear him say that, twice to lefty groups, and it is one of my pet issues. So, apparently, these lefty groups are worth something. They are getting Democrats to express their opinions about this issues. May be they should say that more often and we would have more Dems on the record for single payer. But there is a bill in the Senate for single payer, with one sponsor and no co-sponsor. If Kerry (or Feingold, Boxer, or whoever) wants to show support, he can become a co-sponsor. Or, if he is for a public option, he can write an editorial on the topic (as he does for other issues, some of them a lot less important).

So, while I do not like this group to put words in Kerry's mouth, I cannot blame them for blasting him. On the topic, he may have the right beliefs, but, be it for single payer or public option, he is not ready to fight for them.

[Becky72]

118. Opposing the Iraq war "wouldn't get the votes" in 2003

Doesn't mean one should have voted for it.

Perhaps that's why Kerry voted the way he did.

[jeanpalmer]

121. Well stated

At least have a vote. Put people on the record. He could have said all along that he was against the war, but the vote forced him to go on record. And we found out about him. "I'm for single payer, but I'm gonna have to vote for the insurance plan because we don't have the votes." LOL. With allies like this, who needs enemies.

[karynnj]

133. No it isn't - he wanted leverage for diplomacy

and said that at least thousands of times in 2004. He also said if Bush did not use the vote as promised to go to war as a last resort, he would speak out. He did speak out enough in January - March before the war.

Kerry said he was wrong to give Bush his vote and was in the forefront in designing the Democrats exit strategy.

[Becky72]

137. "Kerry said he was wrong"

All those diplomacy excuses to admit he was wrong at the end?

President Obama himself successfully ran using the Iraq War vote as an advantage he had against other candidates.

[blm]

145. So, a Sen. Obama would have won in 04? Did you forget the best known Dems sided against Kerry

and with Bush on Iraq war and especially Bill Clinton throughout his summer2004 booktour vigorously defended Bush on the very decisions that Kerry was criticizing?

How anyone can think 2008 election climate was anywhere even CLOSE to 2004 is beyond comprehension.

FYI - Kerry stood WITH the weapon inspectors and AGAINST Bush's use of military force before, during and after the invasion. No other IWR aye vote stood with him as the publicly stayed sided with Bush.

[karynnj]

148. Yes, he did - but he ran on a variation of Kerry's exit plan

There is no inconsistency with explaining why he voted and a later admission that it was the wrong vote. If Kerry had not run in 2004, he would have been in a better position on this than Edwards and Clinton, because he did speak out against the war before it started and was labeled anti-war for the first half of 2003. He very likely still would have been the one who led on Kerry/Feingold.

[Cali_Democrat]

131. People are angry

Unfortunately that anger is misplaced at times.

[politicasista]

161. Yep. Just like in this thread

Wonder if people here are more afraid of the DLC Snakes aka Blue Dog Dems? Seems like more time, shoe leather, and energy would be spent calling and e-mailing them.

I do agree with you though.

[Norrin Radd]

136. "Radical" means "going to the root or origin."

I don't see what's wrong with that, other than that is has been used as a disparaging epithet for all of the left by the right for a long time.

[Bluenorthwest]

140. Kerry opposes equal rights for my family

Kerry spouted that one man, one woman bullshit for his failed run as well. Sorry but that means he gets no quarter for me.
Support means support, not weak words that actually explain one's lack of support. To support means to promote, to stand for against adversity.
People like Kerry who stand for discrimination against millions of Americans under this 'reform' never gave a shred of vocal, public support for single payer.


Oh, and by the way, I am actually a great supporter of John Kerry's, I just don't have the votes in my community to voice that, so I have this compromise position that says he is a coward. I support him quietly among my own, like he supported single payer.

[karynnj]

149. You might want to know that Kerry never opposed equal rights for your family - even when he

balked at using the word, "marriage". (Note that Obama is a generation younger (this is an issue where opinion has changed rapidly over time) and went to church that was ok with gay marriage - and he did not go further in 2008 than Kerry in 2004 - in spite of it becoming marginally more acceptable.

Even in 2004, Kerry spoke of intending to ask for legislation that would give all the federal rights of marriage to any union recognized by a state. This was more specific than any past nominee has been. Last fall, at a MA talk, when asked, he said that he always was for rights and now, in MA, marriage is settled law - http://www.bluemassgroup.com/showDiary.do?diaryId=13677 He also supported the recent lawsuits, first from MA groups then from the MA DA that challenge DOMA on behalf of gays in MA who are married. http://gayrights.change.org/blog/view/john_kerry_rips_apart_the_defense_of_marriage_act and

Kerry's record on gay rights is better than most mainstream Democrats - he was the only Senator up for re-election who voted against DOMA and he was a strong advocate for gays serving openly in the military in the 1990s.

[politicasista]

160. Facts never get in the way when it comes to

good ole fashion Kerry bashing.

[Orsino]

141. Kerry talks about supporting single payer...

...while the "lefty radicals" are the ones fighting for it. I understand that Kerry needs to keep some powder dry, but it means that he's not making any substantial progress toward single payer. Sounds as though he's an appropriate target for those of us who would like his vote to be one of the first.

I'll hope that he hasn't dismissed the idea completely, but I can't see that he's changing any minds.

[cadmium]

162. It is a misfire to

make Kerry a scapegoat on the health debate. He is not a major player. His FOR single payor. Ted Kennedy is our major advocate in Massachusetts and Kerry will follow his lead. Kerry is doing double duty working for the state on local issues while Ted is sick and he is Chair of Foreign Relations Committee. There is no way he can reasonably assert himself ahead of Kennedy and Dodd -- nor should he.

Ire should be directed at the real obstructionists like the republican and Baucus

[Orsino]

175. I'm not scapegoating Kerry.

I agree with you that he is not a player. It's nice to hear him talk about single-payer, but I can't credit him with progress yet.

[cadmium]

176. gotcha. I see. On a slightly off-topic note for

Massachusetts residents readers. We Mass residents really should be grateful for the way Kerry has picked up the ball during Ted's illness and going all out for Massachusetts advocacy.

[Canuckistanian]

152. These people aren't "radical lefties", they're political neophytes

There's NO WAY single payer will be enacted this year or 5 years from now. It will be a long, long process.

In the meantime, they're slamming the only true advocate thay have for their cause. AND generating negative publicity at the same time.

They know NOTHING about social change OR the political process.

[PVnRT]

154. How is this negative?

The only negative is the rightful slam he issued against the Blue Cross Democrats. Christ, is it a crime to ask questions that aren't fluffy softballs anymore?

[cadmium]

163. It is negative if the

neophyte advocacy is self-defeating. Attacking allies like Kerry, Pelosi and Dodd only strengthens the hand of Blue-Cross Democrats and Republicans. Remember the republicans? If interest in real health reform - it is more productive to rally against opponents rather than allies. Hand it to the Repulicans they may hate each other but they stick together in formidable opposition.

[NorthCarolina]

155. Public Face Time, it's safe to say you're for single-payer (even if you're not)

since you know it has absolutely no chance any way. Someone who is truly for it would be working HARD to inform the public about it. Case in point; Dennis Kucinich. From Kerry, it's just lip service.

[cadmium]

164. If you are for single payor

you are not helping the case by making Kerry a scapegoat on the health debate. He is not a major player. His FOR single payor. Ted Kennedy is our major advocate in Massachusetts and Kerry will follow his lead. Kerry is doing double duty working for the state on local issues while Ted is sick and he is Chair of Foreign Relations Committee. There is no way he can reasonably assert himself ahead of Kennedy and Dodd -- nor should he.

Ire should be directed at the real obstructionists like the republican and Baucus

I the same message earlier -- sorry for redundancy

[blm]

170. Was it lip service when Dennis speaks against corruption but does none of the heavy lifting

on investigating the corruption?

No - Dennis is sincere but just not an investigator with the skills needed.

Kerry investigated TRULY dangerous and uncomfortable matters and was torn down daily by those opposed to those investigations, including his own party. But, he did the drudging, difficult daily work and ended up uncovering IranContra, Iraqgate, BCCI and CIA drugrunning, and even the S&L crisis. You can't name a lawmaker in DC who has that type of dogged determination and courage to follow through on that hard and DANGEROUS work.

Lip service? Try reading the National Security Archives - Kerry has never been about lip service and his dogged work and open government advocacy has changed this nation's history in ways you are apparently unaware.

[karynnj]

171. If it is so safe, let's put together a list of people who have said they are for it

Sanders
Conyers, Kucinich and about 78 other Congressmen
Obama did say somewhat the same thing if we were starting from scratch


Of all the serious high profile Democratic officials, I think only Obama and Kerry have.

If it were safe there would be more including teh Clintons.

[mkultra]

177. assumption based on prejudgement: also known as prejudice