I sure didn't appreciate Rachel's snide little put down of HST.

[chieftain]

Rep. Holt was just speaking eloquently about Truman's order to desegregate the military and the benefits that accrued to the services and society. He then suggested that getting rid of DADT would have a similar impact. Rachel responded by belittling Truman as no great civil rights advocate until then. What a gratuitous slap at someone who had the courage of his convictions and did the right thing. Trying to separate the man from his courageous act is really galling.
Kudos to Holt for his leadership and his thoughtful association of the movement to rid the military of a stupid, hurtful, self-defeating DADT with Truman's bold move, Maddow's carping notwithstanding.

[rockymountaindem]

1. I thought you meant Hunter S. Thompson!

I am not watching the show right now, but I agree with your sentiment. Truman might not have been the most tolerant man, but his policies were ahead of his time. If all we can ask from our leaders is that they leave their personal feelings outside the oval office, he did a pretty good job.

[DrToast]

6. Me too!

Funny how I was more pissed off when I thought it was Thompson. :P

[lapfog_1]

19. Hubble Space Telescope.

And I was so confused about that.

[Honeycombe8]

78. Hormone systemic therapy? nt

[firedupdem]

2. There weren't a lot of civil Rights advocates anywhere! He did the

right thing by desegregating the military, and thats the point.

[Clio the Leo]

3. The things you miss when you watch Jon and Kate instead.....

.... Emiril Lagasse stopped by to teach the kids how to snap string beans.

Thanks for the warning though ..... I'll put the TV on mute when I watch the repeat so I wont have to endure that part.

[shellgame26]

50. I don't live in the US anymore

can somebody please explain this Jon and Kate phenomenon to me please?

[Clio the Leo]

65. In short....

.... Jon and Kate had sextuplets (plus an older set of twins.) They have had their own tv show for the last couple of years where the lives of the kids and the family in general are documented for the world to see.

It became apparent last season that Jon was not happy with the fame. Add to this the fact that no one could exactly accuse Kate of being a doting wife .... he was "caught" at a college party with some women who were not Kate and while he has apologized to Kate and the world, it's obvious there are problems in the relationship. He spends a lot of time away from home and yet, the cameras keep rolling.

It's like a train wreck and we're all pretty much waiting for the other shoe to drop..... on national TV.

[shellgame26]

77. Thanks!

[Hieronymus]

4. Rachel spoke the truth. I'm sure some could find someone that might

report things as they think things should be or have been.
She also told the truth about Obama's refusal to do anything about don't ask, don't tell.

[napi21]

5. Yes she did, and I also think the reason Obama isn''t going to

tell the military not to enforce the DADT law is because he wants it to be recinded by law, not executive order!

[Hieronymus]

8. Hard when the Supreme Court refused to hear it. Obama could stop

the loss of valuable troops in the meantime.

[chieftain]

9. Here's one source that disagrees with you and Rachel on HST.

www.siuc.edu/~siupress/titles/f03_titles/gardner_trumanpb.htm

There are others who give an even handed treatment of a man who made major contributions to Civil Rights. My real point is that Trumann deserves a better and more accurate treatment than a belittling throw-away line from someone as smart and well read as Rachel.

[Clio the Leo]

23. *

[boppers]

7. Uh, HST did something symbolic, the military just ignored it.

...and "getting rid of DADT" would mean that people serving would be prosecutable even if they were still in the closet. That's *worse* than what we currently have now.

Oh, and it was the Korean war that desegregated the military, not Truman. He signed some paper which actually did nothing.

[Kaleva]

10. It was the Korean War, not HST that desegregated the military

The military ignored Truman's order until the realities of heavy casualties in Korea forced them to use blacks as replacements in the all white units.

[HamdenRice]

17. You're not allowed to say the Army ignored Truman. "Truman desegregated" is now official DU myth.

Sssshhhh! Your historically reality based comments are not allowed, now that "Truman desegrated the military with one order" has become official DU mythology.

In the reality based community, of course, it is acknowledged that the Army told Truman, "No," and continued on as a segregated Army.

[Kaleva]

21. I didn't know that the Army ignored Truman until today

Until reading a post on another thread and doing some research on this myself.

[damonm]

33. The Army may have, but the Air Force led the way...

im implementing Truman's order.

[HamdenRice]

51. Yes, probably because of the experience with the 332nd Fighter Group (Tuskeegee Airmen) ...

during the war. On the other hand, I once met a 332nd fighter pilot who told me a strange story that may or may not be true. He says he was badly wounded toward the end of the war, and was in the hospital through the end of it. When the war ended, he was told he could either take a demotion to non-commissioned officer or be demobilized as an officer, because the Army Air Corp didn't want black pilots during peacetime. He demobilized. He said that as soon as the Korean War he volunteered and was immediately reinstated as an officer and pilot.

[damonm]

69. That story doesn't surprise me, unfortunately.

When you consider that the desegregation order came in 1947. The AF was part of the Army until then.

[Kaleva]

67. The Navy came in a close 2nd. Army put up a fight against it.

[ruggerson]

35. And the reality based community also knows

that in the Korean war, the Army couldn't have replaced dead white soldiers with live black ones (thus integrating units) without executive order 9981 being in place.

[chieftain]

55. Exactly.

[Starry Messenger]

44. Well, we are in two wars...

And we need the people...perhaps the from the awful legacy of the Bush wars we could arrive at equal rights.

[Political Tiger]

11. I like Rachel but she is really trying my nerves!

She's smart, intelligent and a great source for information ... I really like her "holy mackerel" stories, but her snide and snotty remarks are irritating and beneath her. I know she thinks she's being humorous but being nasty is not funny! Come'on Rachel, leave the comedy to Kent Jones!

[chieftain]

53. I am ambivalent about her.

She does some of the best interviews on TV but sometimes her need for ideological purity irks me.

[Tarheel_Dem]

12. Why am I not surprised? (nt)

[CTLawGuy]

13. wasn't as annoying

as her attempt to blame Obama for the USSC not hearing the DADT challenge.

[Jim Sagle]

14. Truman was an anticommunist. Do the math.

[jkshaw]

15. I don't think she meant that as a slap to Harry Truman

at all, just as a simple fact.

[ShortnFiery]

16. There's evidence that Truman made a number of racist statments. He was not pure. NT

[ShortnFiery]

18. For example ...

http://www.allacademic.com/meta/p_mla_apa_research_citation/3/1/4/2/1/pages314217/p314217-17.php

Truman often wrote of his dislike of niggers, nigger-lovers, coons, kikes, Japs, Chinamen, dagos, and anyone else for that matter.

http://books.google.com/books?id=aULOu-zN6NYC&pg=RA1-PA5&lpg=RA1-PA5&dq=TRUMAN'S+1911+Letters+nigger&source=bl&ots=AG-IR_Qmsy&sig=O5Hkve2eUSSvdvh4wnSmg70lHYk&hl=en&ei=-88tSvz2MtqJtgeq4cj8Cw&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=3

[rockymountaindem]

20. But his actions were positive, at least in his integration of the armed forces

As a Jew, I of course take offense at the word "kike", which I saw at least once in a biography of Truman which I read (when he referred to NYC as "a kike town"). He also had some bad things to say about Jews at the end of WWII. Yet, he was still a good president policy-wise from the perspective of contemporary Jews, so while it's disappointing that he couldn't completely banish his personal prejudices, it is good that he rose above them in the formulation of policy.

[ShortnFiery]

26. Yes, but I don't think you'll get folks of Japanese descent to have any "warm regards"

for give-em-hell HST. Don't quote OUR history books but just ask those who remember or who had ancestors murdered in that burning inferno. How about the internment of Japanese Americans? Was that racist of HST, et. al.?

http://books.google.com/books?id=4_KOtRIZEDMC&pg=PA166&lpg=PA166&dq=Japs+Racist+truman+Japs&source=bl&ots=ablb0dExo6&sig=H9D0mI9JTFPX5htVgQsyVZBdpW0&hl=en&ei=ouEtSo-PKdCMtgfclJmIDA&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=1

[rockymountaindem]

30. Harry Truman didn't order the internment of Japanese-Americans

As for the atomic bomb, I'll quote what many have said before me by saying that it was the best card in a crappy hand.

[ShortnFiery]

31. No, but he did NOT have much respect for the Japanese. It was NOT the best card as there

is much debate as to whether he needed to take such extreme measures. Plus he BRAGGED about it after the evil deed was done. I believe he began this HORRIFIC trend of Pre-Emptive Strikes in modern warfare.

http://books.google.com/books?id=4_KOtRIZEDMC&pg=PA166&lpg=PA166&dq=Japs+Racist+truman+Japs&source=bl&ots=ablb0dExo6&sig=H9D0mI9JTFPX5htVgQsyVZBdpW0&hl=en&ei=ouEtSo-PKdCMtgfclJmIDA&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=1

[rockymountaindem]

32. If you believe Truman began the "trend" of pre-emptive strikes, you should see the outbreak of WWI

Furthermore, preemptive and preventive wars have a long, long history. Don't get carried away about Truman.

[ShortnFiery]

34. Hint.

A new age of WAR, of which, the human race may not survive. :nuke:

Truman was deluded ... and yes, his actions were vile. If I were a citizen of any other nation, I too would be as afraid of the USA as I would be of Iran.

There's arguments that Truman dropped the bomb equally because he wished to "make a statement of power" to the Russians. :puke:

[JVS]

40. Or the outbreak of WWII in the Pacific

[Kaleva]

37. Truman launched a pre-emptive strike against Imperial Japan?

"I believe he began this HORRIFIC trend of Pre-Emptive Strikes in modern warfare."

How did Truman do this?

[ShortnFiery]

42. ...

:nuke:

[Kaleva]

49. That's not preemptive

An example of preemptive would be Imperial Japan's strike against the Pacific Fleet at Pearl Harbor.

[Kaleva]

38. self delete

for some reason, a double post was made.

[JVS]

39. How did he begin "this HORRIFIC trend of Pre-Emptive Strikes in modern warfare."?

[ShortnFiery]

41. What Nation is the ONLY one to use

:nuke: ? There's your answer and HST started it.

[JVS]

45. That's not what preemptive means.

:rofl:

[ShortnFiery]

46. Pre-emptive annhiliation then? ... the beginning of the end ... to all of humanity. NT

[dionysus]

66. um, genius, japan attacked us first......

:rofl:

[ShortnFiery]

70. um, professor, I'm specifically referring to annihilation. USA only nation to use the A bomb.

[JVS]

72. No, you specifically used the word pre-emptive. Also you claimed a trend. A trend that ended...

with Truman apparently, because nobody else has ever used nuclear weapons since.

[ShortnFiery]

76. I corrected myself. Unlike most, I'm willing to restate. But keep focusing on my error because

it not only makes you seem intolerant but also cute. ;) :hi:

[Bonobo]

36. Not August and RockyMountainDem is already defending dropping 2 nukes on civiilians!

Hurray for America. Best hand in the deck, 1 million casualties, my uncle would have been one of then, bamboo spears... etc.

[ellisonz]

60. Furthermore...Truman was a political opponent of the KKK in MO in the mid-1920s.

And his close friend and business partner Eddie Jacobson was Jewish.

Actions speak louder than words.

[chieftain]

56. It is not remarkable that Truman growing up when and where

he did used the language that he did. What is remarkable is that a man from that background was able to transcend it with his actions on Civil Rights as well as the recognition of Israel.

[cherokeeprogressive]

28. My Favorite Truman Quote:

Concerning the Atomic Bomb... “We thank God that it has come to us instead of to our enemies, and we pray that He may guide us to use it in His way and for His purposes.”

Chilling video.

[ellisonz]

61. Hitler had undertaken a serious effort to acquire the Atomic Bomb.

Stalin would soon have it.

In fact, the Manhattan project was undertaken in part because of a letter co-authored by Albert Einstein. who feared exactly that outcome.

[Rebubula]

52. Most White men...

...of that time were of that mindset.

North and South.

[Raineyb]

68. And that makes it acceptable? How? n/t

[verges]

80. Context.

He was a man of his time.

[ecstatic]

79. so what? I'd rather have a racist do the right thing

than a non-racist who goes with the status quo. Actions speak louder than words.

[LiberalFighter]

22. I had to read your post again to figure out who Rachel is that you referenced.

She should know better.

[Clio the Leo]

24. What I find amusing are the commercials for the Rachel show....

.... which portray her as a great defender of all things Obama .... either the show or the network know, when it comes down to it, what side their bread is buttered on. ;)

[mitchum]

25. Allowing black men and white men to die side by side for American...

wars of empire is not much of a progressive legacy

[Kaleva]

27. Blacks fought alongside whites in the Revolutionary War

It wasn't until the War of 1812 that units were segregated.

[masuki bance]

29. Hawaiian Standard Time?

[JamesA1102]

43. Rachel's problem is that she thinks she's smarter and

morally superior to everyone else. She is well on the path to becoming another cable news demagogue.

[ShortnFiery]

47. I find her humble. She's willing to accept alternative sources than what the

ruling class writes in our History Books.

Sometimes that's difficult or nearly impossible to even consider. I understand the pain of having to accept that our beloved nation is less than perfect.

[JamesA1102]

74. On some issues

On others she is very rigid.

[rasputin1952]

54. Not to sound facetious...but she is smarter than most...

I won't comment on the morality situation, as I haven't followed everything she has done in her life, but she is certain is one of the smartest people out there...and that scares the hell out people...:D

[Bluenorthwest]

58. The jumping of Rachel here is because she stands up for

her own rights. It is that simply. And I find some of these posts to be downright charged with bigoted language. Rachel thinks she's 'morally superior'? Really? More that the prancing bigots of the beltway, who think people like Rachel and myself ought to have less or no rights, based on the moral superiority they claim via their 'faith'? Does Rachel go after the rights of others with her Rhodes scholar mind, as Obama does with his intellect? No. She does not. But he does.
For many on DU they are so unused to being so wrong, to being the people being protested against, being more conservative on this issue than many Republicans, that the very sight of Rachel pushes their buttons. That is what I see. She stands up for herself and her people, so they call her stupid and such.

[rasputin1952]

62. Rhodes scholarship aside...

She is who she is...an exceptionally intelligent individual that has both depth and conviction. To me, everything other than those 3 things is superfluous and has little to no bearing on how she carries herself.

Her personal life is precisely that, her personal life, I respect people's privacy.

The primary reason she is disliked by some, especially on the right, is twofold, she is intelligent, and she is female. There seems to be a "genetic" fear on the RW side of things when a woman is intelligent, it just plain scares them to death.

I really enjoy Rachel, naturally, I don't agree w/everything she says, no one has all of the answers, (I'd be terrified of someone who agreed w/me all of the time...:D ). She researches everything before she takes a position, and the few times she is wrong, she comes right out and admits it...something virtually very few ever do...:)

[Bluenorthwest]

64. I agree except for one thing

It is not the RW's reaction to her that I am speaking about. It is people here who blast her each time she stands up for GLBT rights.

[rasputin1952]

73. Not trying to sound trite...

but that is not all she is known for. She is a multifaceted woman, regardless of her sexuality, which, in my opinion, is her private life.

Unfortunately, there will always be people who find such things an area of contention, I have little time for people like that. In the same vein, I have little time for people who only see that aspect of her.

It is her mind and way she expresses herself, with dignity and class and a wonderful sense of humor that attracted me to her, everything else is superfluous, and is not my business...:)

[JamesA1102]

75. Being smarter and thinking you're smarter are two different things

And I wasn't commenting about her person morality, I'm sure she is a good person, but rather the attitude that her opinions are morally superior. Both of which are about an arrogance that infects cable hosts on the right and the left. They think that just because they are given a platform that 99% of the people don't have, that they must be smarter and better than everyone else.

[Dawgs]

57. I like her, but I stopped listening to her opinions when she thought Obama was losing the election.

She has a good show. That is it.

[Kaleva]

48. Interesting timeline on the intergration of the military

November 1947: Clark Clifford presents a lengthy memorandum to President Truman which argues that the civil rights issue and the African-American vote are important elements in a winning strategy for the 1948 campaign.

July 26, 1948: President Truman signs Executive Order 9981, which states, "It is hereby declared to be the policy of the President that there shall be equality of treatment and opportunity for all persons in the armed services without regard to race, color, religion, or national origin." The order also establishes the President's Committee on Equality of Treatment and opportunity in the Armed Services.

October 6, 1949: President Truman, as a press conference, calls the Army's integration plan "a progress report" and says that his goal is the integration of the Army.

May 22, 1950: The Fahy Committee submits its final report, "Freedom to Serve," to the President, who says in receiving it that he is confident the committee's recommendations will be carried out and that "within the reasonably near future, equality of treatment and opportunity for all persons within the armed services would be accomplished."

http://www.trumanlibrary.org/whistlestop/study_collections/desegregation/large/index.php?action=chronology

Even after almost two years after Truman signed the Executive Order to integrate the military, he didn't expect it to be accomplished right away but "within the reasonably near future". The realities of the Korean War speeded up the process.

[RufusH]

59. I don't understand why the truth bothers people so much.

When DADT is gone, it certainly won't be because of a President who cares a whole lot about civil rights, at least when related to gay Americans. But he'll get the credit.

[ellisonz]

63. She really should stop faking it.

She's no scholar of history. She just plays one on TV.

Her B.A. from Stanford is in public policy and she used her Rhodes Scholarship to write a comparative study "HIV/AIDS and Health Care Reform in British and American Prisons." She parlayed this into a career as a radio personality.

I doubt she's even read that much about Truman...

[scheming daemons]

71. I stopped watching her when her show became the "Rachel Maddow and Jonathan Turley Hour"

Turley is a snobby prick. He tried to bring Clinton down, and now he's trying to bring Obama down.