99% of Christians are digusted with the assasination of Tiller

[Perky]

It's the other one percent who ought to scare us shitless.

Please ty not to paint the rest of us with the same broad brush.

I would suggest that the pecentage of Christians endorsing the assasination is probaly similar to the number of DUers who would have been overjoyed at the assasination of George Bush.

[Captain Hilts]

1. Exactly. Folks here need to ignore the batshit crazy fringe. nt

[atreides1]

15. No

You don't ignore a potential enemy, you watch them, so that you can prevent them from doing harm.

Ignore the batshit crazy fringe, and you get another Hitler or even worse!

[Captain Hilts]

22. That's what GWB said, too. nt

[Forkboy]

34. And if all Bush had done was say that it would have been fine.

But he didn't just watch. He made shit up to get us into a war. And that's nothing like what that poster said.

You don't ignore a potential enemy, you watch them, so that you can prevent them from doing harm.

Ignore the batshit crazy fringe, and you get another Hitler or even worse!

Absolutely nothing untrue in that statement.

[AllentownJake]

2. I'd say 80%

99% is way to high.

[slackmaster]

6. Why is the number pulled out of your ass any better than Perky's number that he pulled out of his?

Show your work.

[AllentownJake]

8. Pulled the number out of my ass

99% is way to fucking high, 99% of Christians aren't in mainline protestant churches, Orthodox or are practicing Catholics that aren't rabid about abortion.

[slackmaster]

23. You still haven't shown your work

Not every member of any particular church agrees with every official position of that church. There are evangelicals who are moderate on abortion, who oppose it but would neither criminalize it nor agree with attacking doctors. There are Quakers who are strongly anti-abortion.

Wouldn't it be better to simply agree that a substantial majority of Christians probably do not approve of murdering doctors, and not try to quibble about a number that probably cannot be accurately determined?

[Perky]

Don't confuse their volume with their numbers

The fringe is always louder than the non-fringe

[AllentownJake]

11. In the church I go to it's probably 100%

Its UCC

In the Catholic church across the street I know its not 99%. Because some of the people that go to that church a minority but certainly not a 1% minority will show up at Pro-Life rallies.

[Perky]

24. hold it.

Just because some one is prolif and attends a rally doesn't make them "fringe" automatically Let alone domestic terrorists,

[AllentownJake]

25. This is a war on terror

same rules pick them up send them to a detention camp for 7 years and sort them out. Waterboard a few to get the other plots they have. That will show the rest of them to behave themselves.

Do I have to use sarcasm on this.

Seriously I think you can say a super majority, I don't think you can say 99%.

[mkultra]

3. i doubt your number

But i think a majority are disgusted.

[geckosfeet]

4. Not to mention Jews, muslims, atheists, agnostics, and other assorted religious persuasions.

I would not call the killer a christian. He may call himself one. But it is clear that he is Satan's spawn.

[patrice]

5. That means nothing until they express disgust at THEIR War and the deaths of 1,000,000

People who did NOT need killing.

[rurallib]

7. not to mention the maimed and displaced

who will have to live with consequences for things they had nothing to do with.

[patrice]

12. And our Soldiers who were robbed by Lies of their own humanity that chooses a course of

behavior based upon the truth. I am sorry for our Military, living and dead.

[patrice]

18. 3-5,000,000 Refugees.

I simply CANNOT understand why America appears to think nothing of this.

[Perky]

9. Who's war???????????

[patrice]

16. The "Left Behinders" who are looking for "the Second Coming" and are known to have surrounded Bush

during the lead up to THEIR War. Citizens for Responsibility in Washington has a legal suite to acquire White House Visitor Logs from 9/11 to the Invasion and somewhat thereafter, under the FOIA, but those Visitor Logs have been Classified at the highest level as a matter of "National Security".

[patrice]

20. AND the rest of them who did NOTHING about the crazies in their midst.

[Perky]

26. "Their" = all Christians?

If not. What percentage of the Christian community are you talking about?

[patrice]

40. I don't think I said "all" There were/are some Christians who want this War.

Many others voted perhaps once, but maybe even twice, for Bush, even though he lied to us and lead us into an un-necessary war because they expected him to pick a SCOTUS justice who would help overturn Roe v Wade, so the deaths of innocents in war iswas not as important as them getting their way against abortion. The sum and total of Bush's political responsibilities before he was installed as pResident was to service the Republican party's relationships with churches and religious coalitions, so . . . Phony "Pro-Lifers" + End-Timers + latter-day Crusaders + Oil Capitalists, sounds like quite a few people to me, the majority of whom would claim to be "Christian", so let's ballpark it at 60% at one point, but probably down to a socially robust and economically influential 45% now.

Shot in the dark? Yeah, but I'm sticking with it, "THEIR War."

[get the red out]

10. Most Muslims aren't that into Al Qaida either

But they rounded up enough to fly a few planes into buildings as I recall.

[HelenWheels]

13. Then those 99% need to be very vocal about it.

Don't let that small fundamentalist group be their voice.

[Perky]

21. I do not disgree, But I am not sure what that would look like

Th "chuch" is far more fragmented than it is monolithic

What are you looking for. A single press release? a press release from every denomination?

Dobson saying its repugnant?

THe problem is that no one speaks for the whole of the church and most of the Church does not want a single voice speaking for them.

[HelenWheels]

59. Letters to the editor from "Christians" would be great

More of an out cry from individuals, the overwhelming silence from the Christian community is heard as a very loud cheering to many on both sides of this issue.

[Demit]

14. And where did you do your polling to get that percentage?

You can make your point without pulling numbers out of the air to make it seem more persuasive.

I would make the point that we DON'T know how many Christians are disgusted and how many there are who secretly approve. The Washington Post is already giving space to the idea that some people think killing a doctor who performs abortions is justifiable homicide. Which might just sound like encouragement to 'endorse' murder to people who look to authority figures to tell them what to think. So until somebody actually polls a credible number of self-professed Christians (and gee, would that include denominations that are Christian but not evangelical ones?) and presents a credible percentage, I will be very uneasy about what 'Christians' really think, your certainty that DUers would be overjoyed at the assassination of Bush notwithstanding.

[musicblind]

41. I'm a Christian and I'm horribly disgusted by Dr Tiller's murder.

I have yet to meet a single Christian who is not intensely disgusted with it.

[Jennicut]

17. I'm a Christian, my husband is a choir director at our Lutheran Church and we are disgusted

Its not Christian to kill others like this. If one disagrees with abortion then address the issues leading to abortions. Killing a doctor is wrong. Also, sometimes abortions are necessary (life of the mother, age of the mother, rape, etc.) Killing Bush or Cheney is too easy, I would rather they rot in jail with nothing to do all day (solitary confinement).

[liberalmuse]

19. I think that statistic is likely incorrect.

And there are those who would never admit publicly that they are happy Dr. Tiller was gunned down. You're right, we probably shouldn't judge at all, but I can't help but be extremely wary of some of those calling themselves 'Christians' because of life experience. I have met more than a few Christians who have proven themselves to be good, decent, thinking human beings, but there are quite a few people out there calling themselves 'Christian' whom I find abhorrent.

[Bluenorthwest]

27. Some folks would say making up figures out of thin air

and presenting them as fact falls under the 'bearing false witness' column. You made that figure up, and declared it to be true. What do Christians call that, making things up and stating them as fact? We heathen call that 'lying'. What do you call it?
As always, I say that your direction of this screed at those who are not part of your faith community is the core of the problem you are facing. You and your disgusted faith mates need to be telling the nuts in YOUR community how you feel about them. That is how others will know you do not stand with them, when you stop with the silence, and start standing up to those nut jobs. For decades now, the alleged 'good religionists' have allowed the nut jobs to define your community, for you never stand up and speak your mind to them. You all want others to give you pats on the back for not being them, but you refuse to tell the loons that you are not like them. You guys need to organize and speak up and speak out.
It is not the others that paint you with a broad brush, it is your own silence in the face of the actions of your faith mates that paints you with that brush.
Sorry, but that is how I see it. You are asking for absolution from the wrong source.

[spoony]

30. So you're bitching at a thread-starter for being silent?

Lol.

Denominations have been battling about these issues for longer than you've been alive and forming themselves into groups that agree. You seem to think we all sit in the same church and cower while radicals preach hate, when in fact there are many liberal groups of Christians. Maybe you just aren't interested in hearing it because it's more fun to play "where are these supposed moderate Muslims (er, Christians, excuse me. RWers play that other tune).

I somehow doubt the OP was meant as an appeal for "absolution" from you or anyone else, nor was it--or could it be because of what this site is--the sort of scolding you complain wasn't delivered. Those battles don't occur on liberal websites where fundies don't/can't come to. All the OP was saying was don't lose your perspective because of this. Unfortunately, it seems a lot of you don't have a proper perspective to lose in the first place.

[Bluenorthwest]

33. No not at all

I'm telling the OP that making up 'facts' is not cool. I'm also saying that demanding respect or understanding from non religious people is understandable, but that the actual work to be done is in the area of taking a stand against the crazies in the OP's own community. All people of all communities should do so. Don't tell it to me, because in spite of your assumptions, I already know. Tell it to the crazies that have in fact been allowed to define Christianity as right wing and anti-choice. I would go so far as to say that all people of faith should be doing so out of a desire to defend their faith.
I would say that Frank Schaeffer's writings on this subject might be illuminating to you and the OP, and more understandable coming from him than from me, for he is doing exactly what I think the larger community should be doing.

[Perky]

35. Due respect

99% was only meant as a way of saying that nearly all Christians oppose the assasination of Tiller.


ANd due respect. I doubt you have any idea of what I am doing in my own "community" with regards to standining in opposition to the crazies. But there is also a differenc between crazies and those who have a moral/releiogus objectgion to Abourtion without making it an issue for war.

[Honeycombe8]

28. You are wise, Grasshopper. But...

I suspect they feel about it like many here would have felt about a Bush assassination:

1. Shocked and horrified. Murder is murder.

2. Concerned that this would hurt our own plans, since it might make a martyr of Bush and cause the numbers of his team to swell in response.

3. Be sad for his family.

4. Be angry at the nut who killed our President. He was a lousy President, and a harmful one, but he was OUR President, and no one had the right to do away with him.

5. Think deep down that although it's horrible, it may in the end save lives, not having him around. Although we suspect there would simply be a replacement. Still, we would ashamed at having such a thought.

[boomerbust]

29. A long time friend of mine

A preacher's son, a preacher of the church and school that I spent my entire childhood attending, told me a few years back that he had to vote for Bush because he was a Christian. I told him that these were not the Christians we grew up with. So it's easy to see how even the so called mainsteam Christian can be easily manipulated by political beliefs.

[RoadRage]

31. Most Christians

Are disgusted by both the "good" doctor who is now dead, as well as his assasin.

True Christians really do feel that Murder is ALWAYS wrong - including the death penalty.

There are always those who try to make exceptions.. but you're correct, - most do not.

[MADem]

32. Of course they are.

Tiller was a person who respected religious traditions, too--he even had a chaplain on his staff. He knew that the decision by a woman to avail themselves of his services wasn't arrived at on a whim:

From his website: http://74.125.95.132/search?q=cache:h2uxULlPlDsJ:www.drtiller.com/chap.html+site:drtiller.com+www.drtiller.com/&cd=4&hl=en&ct=clnk&gl=us

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[SoxFan]

36. No. 100% of Christians are disgusted with this murder.

Those who aren't are not followers of Jesus Christ in any sense of the word

[Clio the Leo]

39. Nailed it! Post of the day! NT

[tammywammy]

45. Exactly. n/t

[Lilyeye]

46. I couldn't agree more. Me and my family are Christians and we are disgusted by what happend.

[yellowcanine]

37. Much as I would like to think so, I don't think it is 99%. 75 % maybe. And why muddy the issue

talking about George Bush and DUers? Got an agenda of your own, maybe?

[ljm2002]

38. Oh, really?

So it's only 1% of Christians who attend mega-churches, who have infiltrated school boards across the nation, who are inserting creationism and Intelligent Design into science curricula? It's only 1% of Catholic Christians who have supported their priests when they refuse to give communion to a Catholic politician who supports abortion rights? It's only 1% of Christians who voted overwhelmingly for Republicans over the last 20 years, on the basis of God and Gays and Guns and Abortion and Godless Communism?

Really? I am not convinced.

[musicblind]

43. You claim they agree with cold blooded murder since they don't hold your identical political view?

That makes no sense and you have no idea about Christianity. You have apparently been exposed to people who are not actually Christian. I'm gay, liberal as hell, and Christian. Jesus himself was a liberal. I have not met a single Christian who would not be sick to their stomach at Dr. Tiller's assassination.

[Flying Dream Blues]

44. But do you think abortion should be illegal?

[ljm2002]

58. No, what I am saying is...

...there are way, way more than 1% of self-professing "Christians" who do agree with this killing. Oh, a lot of them will say "we shouldn't use those methods", but then they will amend their remarks with "but he was after all a baby killer, a mass murderer, and he reaped what he sowed".

That's what I'm saying.

[LittleBlue]

42. The scary thing: I don't believe it's only 1%

I'd say more like 20% or more. Go look at conservative websites.

[rasputin1952]

47. I see your 99% metaphorically, not as an actual #, since there is

no way a number can be "proven". What I can say, is that the vast majority of practicing and non-practicing Christians, as well as Jews, Muslims, Buddhists and every other religion and those who are not religious at all, find what happened despicable.

The Christians, (and non-Christians) I know who are pro-life would never condone such an act. There are maniacal fools out there that would, but the Christians I have come across would rather pray than slay.

It is indeed a sad state of affairs when an entire group is held accountable for the act of a madman, who professed to be a Christian, but failed one of basic tenets of the religion...Love your brother as you love yourself. Nowhere in any Gospel is there a call for murder, nowhere is there a call for vengeance. There are calls for Justice, but Justice with mercy.

No one should take the members of a religion to task for the act of an individual or a fringe group. We do not do that with African Americans, Asians, Hispanics or other groups. We are appalled when someone says "the Jews are responsible"...we should be equally appalled when any group, in this case Christians, are "blamed" for what one individual did.

This is not to say that there is no responsibility for some that rant on about this and push some people to despicable acts but they a small group and very vocal. besides, they are not Christians anyway, they are a bastardized element of a religion that holds at it's core the teachings of Jesus...Love, compassion, empathy, justice, forgiveness and hope.

[thelordofhell]

49. It is indeed a sad state of affairs when an entire group is held accountable for the act of a madman

Go tell that to the Muslims after 9/11

[rasputin1952]

50. I am acquainted with a Muslim family and they were appalled at

what happened on 9-11, and they denounce all violence. I don't know what sect they are in, but they speak against violence, hate, beheadings, oppression of women, children and gays. From what I have read, the vast majority of Muslims want nothing to do with terrorism and murder. I would never condemn Islam for what the Taliban does, I condemn those that provoke and commit violence. The Taliban is fringe element of Islam, it does not represent Islam or Muslims; just as Fred Phelps does not represent Christianity.

[Flying Dream Blues]

48. So why no outrage at how Christians are represented until someone is

murdered? If Christians don't want to be tarred with the same brush, maybe there should be some evidence that they disapprove of their media "leaders".

[Political Heretic]

61. You're simply not looking in the right places and seeing what you want to see.

Sojourners Magazine
http://www.sojo.net/

Liberal Christian Resources
http://www.hostdiva.com/liberalchristians/

The Center for Progressive Christianity
http://www.tcpc.org/template/index.cfm

Liberation Theology
http://www.liberationtheology.org/

Alliance of Baptists
http://www.allianceofbaptists.org/

Call to Action: Catholics Working of Justice and Equality
http://www.cta-usa.org/

Common Sense Christianity:
http://www.commonsensechristianity.org/

CrossLeft
http://www.crossleft.org/

Crosswalk America: Christian Compassion and Progressive Action
http://www.crosswalkamerica.org/

Faith Futures - Progressive Christian Community
http://www.faithfutures.org/

Faith and Justice
http://www.faithandjustice.org/

Faithful America - focused on Poverty from a left perspective
http://www.faithfulamerica.org/

Progressive Christians Uniting
http://www.progressivechristiansuniting.org/welcome.html

Progressive Episcopals
http://www.progressiveepiscopalians.org/index.html

Progressive National Baptist Convention
http://www.pnbc.org/

Protestants for the Common Good
http://www.thecommongood.org/home.asp

The Beatitudes Society - promoting peace and social justice
http://www.beatitudessociety.org/

Center for Lesbian and Gay Studies in Religion and Ministry
http://www.clgs.org/

Christian Healing Ministry - advocating social justice
http://ahealingministry.com/

Eco-Justice Ministries
http://www.eco-justice.org/

Earthkeepers News - Christian environmentalism
http://nacce.org/library/

Preaching Peace
http://www.preachingpeace.org/

Equal Partners in Faith - LGBT equality
http://www.geocities.com/CapitolHill/4497/EqualPartners.html

Faith in Public Life
http://www.faithinpubliclife.org/

The Religious Coalition for Reproductive Choice
http://www.rcrc.org/

Center for Progressive Religious Thought
http://www.progressivereligion.org.au/

The Interfaith Alliance
http://www.interfaithalliance.org/

Theocracy Watch
http://theocracywatch.org/

[JI7]

51. there are probably a lot of Muslims who wish people would view them in that way

[spoony]

52. I imagine most of us here do, yes?

Yet I see people behaving just like the Islamophobes on the right.

[JI7]

54. i think Christians, Muslims etc can all be assholes, murderers etc

i don't consider being any religion "or no religion" to make someone a good person in itself.

[spoony]

55. Quite right n/t

[BlooInBloo]

53. Then maybe you should spend your time talking to that 1%, rather than the rest of us.

[TheKentuckian]

56. Secular liberals are always (not without good reason) that their voices aren't heard

What would make someone think that liberal Christians would be able to dominate the big money megaphones, often in denominations we don't even share?

You had better damn well hope most Christians are sickened and outraged at this murder or you have already lost all you fight for. Their are probably more Christians than all other groups combined in this country. Kneejerk venom spitting won't bring this man back, make other doctors and the women they serve safer, or change the environment. Running off friends to rail at an enemy out of earshot isn't exactly the pinnacle of wisdom.

[PurityOfEssence]

57. Great. That means more than 20 million are just fine with it...

There are over 2 billion Christians.

This is all well and good, and ridiculous self-absolution. It's also a bullshit fake-o statistic plucked from the thin air of sanctimonious elitism. Bad crap that happens in the name of one's religion is STILL THE RESPONSIBILITY OF THAT RELIGION, and somewhat the responsibility of ALL of those of that religion.

One can't pat oneself on the back for all the wonderful things one's fellow fantasists do and dismiss the nasty things as some kind of aberration or travesty of the glorious truth: they're part and parcel.

[Political Heretic]

60. I love God. It's his followers I can stand.

:)