Obama Massive Fail - Universal Single Payer Not For Profit Health Care The Only Solution

[lostnotforgotten]

Watch Dennis Kucinich And His Lovely Wife Sound the Alarm

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=385&topic_id=311402

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=385&topic_id=308998

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=385x311458

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=385&topic_id=308308

All other options are mere rationalizations reflecting a lack of courage and political will!

[babylonsister]

1. Heh. Obama sucks!

:eyes:

How about, the bell is ringing, he could possibly hear it? At least everyone's bell that can't figure out that what they want won't work?

I have no clue myself.

[Name removed]

2. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Name removed]

9. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Name removed]

34. Deleted sub-thread

Sub-thread removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Oregone]

10. Every time you get in the car, you wonder: is this the ride that will take my home, my life?

Medical emergencies can wipe out everything you worked for throughout your entire life in a matter of seconds (when not covered, and sometimes, when insured). My last "emergency" memory, while uncovered, was operating on myself with a pair of rusty pliers to remove a projectile lodged in my arm (after some firemen refused to help due to liability). What a mess.

Im glad I now live in a civilized country with single-payer health care. The absence of the fear is priceless.

[Grinchie]

26. Living if fear is worse that injecting yourself with blood flood a deiseased rat

Seriously, when one realizes that Doctors really don't have any more control over your health than you do, via your mental and physical perception of health, you can seriously take control about your own health. You will tend to protect it more, by researching what you eat, the toxic products you use in your home, and in general by learning about all the toxic shit that Corporate America dumps on us every day, which we buy willingly, despite the hidden and unknown fact that it is poisoning us.

Truly, what is the purpose of "Lemon Scent" Clorox Bleach? You can't use it to disinfect water for drinking, because it contains some grat smelling chemicals that mask of the CHlorine smell. I don't need to smell lemons when I'm using a caustic compuond such as chlorine.... Call me old fashioned, but I prefer my poisons to smell really bad.

Or what about the long term effect of eating GMO Corn that is laced with BT Toxin? The USDA seems to think we don't care to know if or when we eat this crap, so it has infiltrated it's way into 80% of the food we eat.

I live without health insurance too, but I have total confidence that my health is at about as much risk as getting sick as someone with health insurance, except that I don't expose myself to inordinate amounts of toxic compounds, Eat organic foods with the money I say, and generally enjoy life more because I have more energy, and lots more disposable money because the leeches at the Insurance compny get nothing from me. I take davantage of the most suppressed yet effective health products known to man -- Ozone and Hydrogen Peroxide, and they halp keep my body energized and free of pathogens and dead and dying cells.

I think Universal Health care is the only way to go., But I have long givien up on mainstream Medicine because it has been compromised for over 70 year. We are just now hearing about the miracles of Royal Rife, Wilhelm Reich, and all of the questions they revealed through their research, which was quashed in much the same way as Fleischman and Pon and their Discovery of Cold Fusion/Electolyisis Fusion.

Health care in America is a sham, make work operation. Prevention is much more important that treating the disease, because if you get to the point where organs are failing, parsites have nestled in you leiver, or you body's cellular community has decided to give up and go it alone in the for of cancer because you've piussed it off, then it's too late. The doctors know this, and they are just feeding on what little wealth you have reamining.

Wake up and take control of your health. You don't need a Doctor to keep you healthy, you only need a Doctor to tell you that you are sick, and then treat you with whatever seems appropriate for the day. He won't heal you. You will heal you, and you don't need him to tell you to heal if you avoid getting to the place that got you ill in the first place.

Now don't admonish me with Broken bones, infections and other disease that are not part of the degeneration due to physical contraction, because they are things that need to be taken care of, but we can avoid the broken bones and accidents if we take more care and slow down. So what if it take 3 days to do something, as long as you can do it safely when you finally try?

[Honeycombe8]

3. It's not gonna happen. And for good reason: the voters don't want it.

The voters had options of candidates who were in favor of single-payer. But they narrowed it down to two candidates, neither of whom thought single-payer would be the way to go. One of those won. But both of their plans were very similar.

I don't know what single-payer is like, but I'm beginning to hear horror stories. Like being unable to get operations, or being put on long waiting lists (like months or years long). Drs. get paid less, so there are fewer doctors. Things like that. I'm also hearing good things (I saw "Sicko," too, which was very informative).

But even if we wanted to, I believe what some politicians have said...that it would be a possibly insurmountable task to switch radically from one type of system to another (and have it work well anytime soon), plus the cost would be prohibitive.

I like O's plan.

[lostnotforgotten]

4. Wrong, Wrong, Wrong - The American Oligarchs Don't Want It

Get Your Facts Straight!

[Bolo Boffin]

5. Reality doesn't mean we need to give up the fight for it.

We have to keep pushing. I understand pointing out reality to help stem some frustration on this issue, but we have to keep pushing this issue.

[lostnotforgotten]

7. Don't Repeat The Right Wing Oligarch Meme - The American Do Want Single Payer

eom

[Honeycombe8]

12. I don't know anyone, not one person, who wants a public system only.

Including myself.

It sounds great, and in theory I'd be in favor of, keeping the ins. cos. (and the profit) out of the system. That makes the cost high (duh!). But I'm hearing that in practice, it doesn't work that well for things that are not ordinary exams and maintenance. There are fewer drs. There are far fewer operations, so if you need an operation, you may have to wait months or years to get one, if ever.

But if we add to the current system a public system where the govt offers public plans at reasonable rates, and then subsidizes the premium payments, that makes sense to me.

Who is slipping thru the cracks now are not the very poor. They get free medical care that you and I pay for in our taxes. It is the lower middle class, who are not poor enuf to qualify for free care, but don't have enuf $ to pay for private policy. The govt would subsidize those payments on a sliding scale. Those with enuf $ to buy a private policy, or who have employer-provided ins., would have the option of keeping that, or paying for the public plan (although it wouldn't be subsidized).

It sounds like it could work. But I'm no ins. expert, so how can I know for sure?

[Lorien]

23. Everyone I know, with the exception of one dittohead freeper, wants

single payer. And I'm in Florida. Watch "sicko" and then tell us that public systems aren't a big step above our current system.

http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=6646340600856118396

[Grinchie]

29. Perhaps you live in a Secure Gated Community.

But your talking points sure sound like an imported Health Care Cheerleader.

Your moderation at the end doesn't disguise your absolute ignorance of the problem. Perhaps you are a member of the Former Clinton campaign team?

[lostnotforgotten]

40. Spotted As A Health Insurance Cheerleader - How's That Working For You By The Way?

eom

[ecstatic]

18. I'm all for it if you can assure me that it won't be like Medicaid

I've witnessed how Medicaid health care is run and I was put off. Crappy hospitals and doctors. Long waits. Just reassure me that a public option won't be like that and I'm all for it!

[lostnotforgotten]

6. Don't even Start A Flame War On This Issue - I Lived The Hell For 5 Years

The American people actually want this very, very much!

[msongs]

8. sounds like our HMO but that HMO is for profit lol (starts with bluuuuuuuue) nt

[Oregone]

11. "But they narrowed it down to two candidates, neither of whom thought single-payer would be the way"

Ah, this is bullshit. They didn't choose Obama because they don't want single-payer. They chose Obama because he was cute and gave good speeches that made their hearts flutter. You think any reasonable percentage of people who voted for him (or voted period), are educated enough in this matter to understand the difference of it all? Right...

[Honeycombe8]

15. I voted for O. I read his campaign website, where his plans on the

various issues were spelled out in detail. I paid particular attention to his health care reform plan. I also paid attention to Hillary's, since their plans were so similar.

It's an insult (as you know) to say that we voted for Obama because he's cute and gives good speeches. I voted for O for a lot of reasons, but not one of them was because he's cute. That he gives good speeches was one of many factors: Communication skills are critical when you're President; the ability to get ideas across, to quell fears or inspire are all skills that are extremely helpful for leaders.

But the qualities that also mattered were intelligence, education, personality, knowledge, political experience (I would've prefered another 2 years, but I had to take him with the 8 years he had), political savvy, ability to select staff, ability to direct a large campaign and handle the millions of dollars connected with it, debating skills, general direction he wanted to take the country, his health care plans, and his environmental concerns (he was one of the few candidates who gave the environment a front and center place in his campaign).

[babylonsister]

17. You picked the right man.

He's dancing as fast as he can, or working as hard as he can.

I really think that's true.

I'm gratified Americans had such a stellar prez to pick.

McSame would have been "AWFUL".

[firedupdem]

16. Nice of you to tell me why I voted for Obama. Sounds like

you have some other issues you're pissed about. :eyes:

[Oregone]

19. Not really...

I just don't think a nomination result is a de facto mandate on public policy. Its damn silly to suggest that Obama won because people don't want single payer. Obama won because people liked Obama. If all candidates were equal, then you can say the person who wins does so based on policy. But all candidates are not equal.

[dflprincess]

13. The MSM narrowed the race down to two candidates

by paying little or no attention to any of the other candidate. No doubt their masters wanted to be sure a good corportist was put in the White House. The voters - especially those not really active in policis don't get all that much input. The information they're fed is limited and filtered.

As far as waiting for surgeries (and when that happens it's generally an elective procedure and I've never heard years) how long will you wait for surgery in the U.S. if you don't have the cash or insurance? - Probably until you die and not just for elective procedures. And, if what you need is something like a hip replacement you may not even get the meds that control the pain.

[dgibby]

14. The horror stories are being brought to you by the same people

who brought you the Swiftboaters. It's just more greedy coporate right wing fear mongering. I have been on the receiving end of "socialized medicine" since I joined the Navy in 1969. I've always received excellent care(and as an RN, I know excellent care when I see it), and have been able to see any specialist I've needed to see when I needed to see him/her. If I didn't like my primary care provider, I could chose another one.

Now that I'm retired,I'm in the TRICARE system. As such, I can see any Dr. who accepts TRICARE, I have a small co-pay, and my meds cost about $3.00/prescription at my local Publix pharmacy. I could get them for nothing if I went to the local VA hospital, but Publix is more convenient, and I save on gas by going there.

Do not believe the crap being spread by people who are in it for the almighty dollar. That's how they win, by keeping us DOWN, DUMB, AND DIVIDED! If single payer/public funded health care wasn't any good, do you honestly believe that members of Congress would avail themselves of it? I don't see any of them turning it down and begging for private insurance, do you? If it's good enough for them, it's sure as hell good enough for us.

[Thothmes]

57. Not sure whos Navy you were in.

In the 24 years I was in the Navy, I never saw the same physician twice in a row. Except for the CDR that botch my vasectomy, then I saw him every day for the 10 days I was in the hospital.

[JustinL]

22. according to an AP poll from 2007, most Americans support single-payer

14. Which comes closest to your view?

34% - The United States should continue the current health insurance system in which most people get their health insurance from private employers, but some people have no insurance

65% - The United States should adopt a universal health insurance program in which everyone is covered under a program like Medicare that is run by the government and financed by taxpayers

2% - Refused / Not Answered

15. Do you consider yourself a supporter of a single-payer health care system, that is a national health plan financed by taxpayers in which all Americans would get their insurance from a single government plan, or not?

54% - Yes

44% - No

2% - Refused / Not Answered

http://l.yimg.com/a/i/us/nws/elections/2008/yahoo2topline.pdf">link

[JPettus]

25. I lived in Germany for five years

Don't know if their system could be termed "single payer" but what I do know after talking to my German colleagues there is that they really like their health care system. As one gentleman in his 60's told me, "If I am sick, I go see the doctor and it costs me 2 DM (about $5 at the exchange rate at that time) and if I need medicine, I go to the drugstore and it costs me another 2 DM for my medications.

You will always hear horror stories from the people who don't want it. But believe me, if you don't have health insurance and someone you love is injured or ill and desperately needs medical care you go to the emergency room and you are going to be charged and arm and a leg and if you are lucky, you can pay that off in a year or two. If the situation is more dire and long term care is needed, you could easily be wiped out, lose your home, lose your savings and be financially ruined in a very short time.

More, universal coverage is the only thing that will slow the escalating cost of medical care in the US. Right now the biggest reason for the rising costs are the people who are not covered. Since we consider ourselves a humane people, everyone who goes to an emergency room is supposed to be seen, regardless of the much greater cost. People without coverage will be seen but if they can't pay the bill because they have no coverage, those costs are still covered by being passed on to the people who DO have coverage in the form of higher costs.

Higher costs for medical care causes premiums to go up, which makes it even more difficult for some people who could barely afford coverage before to now be unable to afford it.

For all the talk about socialized medicine, nearly a third of our population is already on it, in the form of government employees, medicaid, medicare, etc.

IMO, it makes sense to find a way to achieve universal coverage to protect our citizens.

The reason I *don't* like O's plan is that it does not provide universal coverage and is still very much like what we have. IMO, what we have had hasn't worked and can't work until it dramatically slows the rising cost of medical care.

Just my two cents, so now everyone flame away!

[Grinchie]

28. What Corporate talking point wagone di you fall off of?

Pleae eilluminate what other candidate that could win who were in favor of Single payer?

I'd like to fhear some of the horrow stories, at least ones as scary of "I lost my home and had to file for bankruptcy for my heart valve surgery, which was weakend due to rheuatic fever 40 years ago but was never treated".

What, you mean they might tell me that my "Pickers Wart" can't be removed because it would be cosmetic surgery?

Dr. s get paid less.. Yup, thats a real fact of life. They spend 15 minutes per patient today and that get to spend 30 minutes studying the formulary to see what drugs they can prescribe. Poor things.

Obama's plan is the milquetoast, band aid that does nothing. It is a cowards way out that gives the Pharmaceutical companies and the healtchare industry 5 more years before they get burned down from a pissed off population.

They don't know when to quit, and you are standing right beside then cheering them on to more unsustainable activities when it coumes to the health care crisis.

[livefreest]

30. of course you would start hearing horror stories now

multi-national corporations entities don't want to see single payer happening

[Triana]

33. The plan is not to "radically" switch. The plan is/was to offer a public plan as an option ...

...that would compete with the private for-profit industry. The private companies would compete successfully (provide care at same costs) or fail.

Gradually, we'd have either a mixed system or a single-payer public system.

That way, it's not a "radical" switch but a gradual one and this is the same plan Edwards had knowing such a change had to be gradual - BUT A PUBLIC OPTION HAS TO BE OFFERED AS AN OPTION first. Nothing "radical" about making it an option. If people what to keep their private insurance, they can. BUT private companies would then have to compete in care provision and cost savings with the public plan and THAT would be a good thing and save costs for everyone.

[Bluenorthwest]

42. The voters do want it

And listening to folks who have never lived with a not for profit plan, folks who hear 'horror stories', as opposed to people who live with those plans, would be nuts. Some of us on this thread live with those plans. Some of us have family and friends that live with those plans. Honestly, do you really think the US is so lacking in connections to Canada and the UK and Austrailia and Germany that we have to listen to rumors, not direct stories from actual patients we actually know over many years of experience? I have known people in all of those countries for decades. I've been covered under three of them for periods myself. Never heard a 'horror story' outside of the USA. Lots of them here. Tons.
The stuff you 'hear' from who knows who does not compare with the stuff I have heard from my friend, the MD in Germany, for example. You know? Or my flat broke pal in the UK who had a life changing surgery for nothing, with full care, while my US pal with the same condition suffered with it and eventually died. DEAD. MMMMkay? How's that for horror?
Or my friend in the UK who was born with more medical problems and disablities than most of us have in a lifetime. She's had millions of pounds worth of care, her parents never had to pay, nor does she. Her counterparts in the states are homebound and miseralbe. She works for a major corporation and has a rather nice gig. A horror story! Here in the US, her parents would have been ruined financially, years ago.
So what do you have for first hand? Got any 'horror stories' that have first names and relationships attached, or is this all media reporting you are speaking of? I've seen what I've seen with my eyes. The GOP and Conservative ObamaDems rave about stuff they heard once from a guy on the radio who said he'd once met a Canadian in an airport.....

[subterranean]

55. The horror stories are greatly exaggerated.

You sometimes get put on a waiting list for non-urgent operations, but not in critical situations.

Single payer doesn't automatically lead to fewer doctors. That is a problem in some parts of Canada, but European countries actually have MORE physicians per capita than the U.S.
See the chart below for the facts:

[vaberella]

20. Agreed..but we need to be REALISTIC!! n/t

[lostnotforgotten]

35. 40 Million Americans Want Solutions Not Realism - Fuck Realism!

I assure you that is the opinion of the oligarchs!

[vaberella]

44. Let me be frank.

You won't get solutions without realism. Failure, yes. Solutions, no.

[harun]

54. Were the Cuban's being realistic with their Healthcare reform?

[Puzzler]

21. I don't agree with Obama on this issue, but ...

... he wasn't a supporter of single-payer on the campaign trail, was he? Why the shock?

(... and before anyone jumps down my throat... as a Canadian, I strongly support single-payer, and think Obama is 100% wrong on this issue)

[lostnotforgotten]

36. In 2003 He Was A Supporter - Those Facts Posted Here At The Very DU

eom

[vaberella]

45. Show me the proof...

If it's that shit video, then you're 100% wrong.

[Puzzler]

49. Well, he wasn't a supporter in 2008...

(unfortunately) which is what my post is referring to when I mentioned his "campaign".

[FrenchieCat]

24. Single Payer is paid by taxes in other countries.

We can't get there in one fell swoop, even if you think so.

First of all, try proposing that we tax like they do in France here, and see what happens. They'll be electing a Republican so quickly next election, it won't even be funny.

Plus, I know that the French buy supplemental health insurance in France. I know...cause I see advertisements for it when I go to France. Why do you think that is?

Private Insurance. “More than 92% of French residents have complementary private insurance.” This insurance pays for additional fees in order to access higher quality providers. Private health insurances makes up 12.7% of French health care spending. These complementary private insurance funds are very loosely regulated (less than in the U.S.) and the only stringent requirement is guaranteed renewability. Private insurance benefits are not equally distributed so there is, in essence, a two-tier system.

Physician Compensation. French doctors are paid by the national health insurance system based on a centrally planned fee schedule, but doctors can charge whatever price they want. The fees are based on an up front treatment lump sum, which is similar to DRGs in the U.S. The patient–or their private insurance–must make up the difference between the fee charged by the doctor and the amount paid for by the universal health care system. The average French doctor earns only €40,000, although medical school is free for them and the French legal system is fairly tort-averse.

Physician Choice. The French have a fair amount of choice in which doctors they choose. However, recently the French have moved towards a more “managed care” practice style where patients have a “preferred doctors” who acts as a gatekeeper for specialists.

Copayment/Deductibles. 10% to 40% copayments.

Technology. The government does not reimburse new technologies very generously and because of global budgets and fee restrictions, there is little incentive to make capital investments in medical technology.

Waiting Times. France has generally avoided waiting lists, likely due to the fairly high coinsurance charges. Recent trends towards Increased restrictions, reduced reimbursement rates, and rationing has increased wait times however.

Tanner’s summary. “To sum up: the French health care system clearly works better than most national health care systems. Despite some problems, France has generally avoided the rationing inherent in other systems. However, the program is threatened by increasing costs and may be forced to resort to rationing in the future.” http://healthcare-economist.com/2008/04/14/health-care-around-the-world-france/

[eridani]

32. How stupid do you think I am to prefer a $450 a month "premium"--

to a $150/month "tax"? We are spending twice as much per capita as any other country on health care right now. There are no financial problems whatsoever in providing care to everybody right now. We are already paying for universal health care--we just aren't getting it.

[lostnotforgotten]

39. Tell It Eridani - Obama's Massive Fail Will Be His Legacy

eom

[BzaDem]

51. Yawn. n/t

[elocs]

27. Well, welcome to the real world where our president is not perfect and things work imperfectly.

Now if Obama would only do everything the way I believe should be done, then he would be perfect.

[lostnotforgotten]

38. He Supported Single Payer Back In 2003 - He Can Support It Again

eom

[elocs]

41. I think that Obama has found the realities of what he can or cannot do as president

to be different from what he believed as a senator. I am sure if he does not completely support single payer now and he did in the past, that change was not made on a whim and he didn't do it to just piss off people.

[livefreest]

31. PEOPLE CALM DOWN

you don't need to tear into someone who might be persuadable or actually agrees with you. Use this boiling anger to call the white house, your congressional representatives and your local newspaper

[lostnotforgotten]

37. You Live Without Health Care Access For 5 Years And Then Tell Me To Calm Down!

Tell 40 million Americans that still have no coverage to calm down!

[vaberella]

46. I've lived without it for 10....so I can most definitely say "CALM DOWN!"

Added to that I have a genetic condition.

[livefreest]

59. ok. point taken

[Thrill]

43. Bullshit. Single Payer is not realistic. It would never happen with this Congress

Obama isn't going to fight a losing battle and end up getting nothing done

[vaberella]

48. Exactly. n/t

[BzaDem]

52. Shh. I'm sick and tired of your reasoned arguments and facts. n/t

[stevenleser]

47. PROGRESSIVES MASSIVE FAIL: Believing THEIR way is the ONLY WAY. n/t

[dionysus]

50. the travelocity gnome sure is pissed, isn't he?

:rofl:

[and-justice-for-all]

53. All Obama has to do is expand Medicare or Medicad...

We already pay for it so just give it to the rest of us...nt

[Wednesdays]

56. K&R

:kick:

[Hippo_Tron]

58. So in your view, we shouldn't even be discussing other options?

Yours is clearly the best solution and no other solutions could possibly be any better.