How do you respectfully disagree with hatred?

[last1standing]

I've been angry these last few days. Angrier than I remember being in a very long time. I've said some very harsh things to fellow DUers who have, either knowingly or unknowingly, said some very harsh things to me. I've taken some time to think on what has been debated here since Thursday, though, and I find I'm not so much angry any longer, but embittered.

You see, in a moment caught off guard, our president elect said that those without hope turn to religion and guns out of bitterness because they see no real way out of their situations. I agreed with him then and I still do. The only difference is that we in the GLBT community are turning to each other and away from those who want us to 'wait just a little while longer'.

We're doing this because most of us don't understand how we can 'respectfully disagree' with those who truly hate us. We don't know how to say "I disagree" when someone tells us that we are no better than child rapists and dog fuckers, and we don't know how to celebrate when our president gives people who tell us this a position of honor at his inauguration.

Even more, we don't understand how we can stand shoulder to shoulder with people who advocate our destruction. We can't easily forget when these people work to take away our humanity. We lash out when someone tries to rip our families apart and denies us the basic foundations of freedom.

So when we are told to wait just a little longer or to merely think of the Warren invocation as a door being closed on homophobia, we cringe. When people tell us to trust a man who has given so much honor to someone who works to harm us, we get angry. And when we are told by our DU 'friends' that our humanity is nothing more than a single issue and that we have to look at the bigger picture, we become embittered.

We do this because we see the hatred that comes from Warren and people like him. We see it when a loving couple is denied the right to marriage because it's 'unnatural'. We see it when that couple is told they cannot adopt a baby because it would be 'unhealthy' for the child. We see it when we are told we can't give blood because our 'lifestyle' is too dangerous. We see it whenever we hear of another friend being beaten or killed for being 'a dirty queer'. We see it in sitcoms and commercials that make fun of 'those silly fags'. The reasons are all around us every day. We see it every time another friend or loved one passes from AIDS. There is no let up and there is no sanctuary from it.

So after all of that I ask you, how do you respectfully disagree with hatred?

[DJ13]

1. Punch 'em in the nose works for me

:shrug:

[crappyjazz]

2. Thanks a lot

I thought I was done bawling yesterday, now it's back :P

I'm gonna go walk the dog ... my pneumonia be damned

[WeDidIt]

3. I wish I could rec a dozen times. n/t

[madeline_con]

4. Why on earth would you want to be respectful to THAT?!!

Hate is not respecting YOU! Fire back when ready, I say!!!

[sundog]

5. good post

[reggie the dog]

6. tell the people to go fuck themselves

that is what someone with the stature of a vice president would say at any rate.

[last1standing]

20. I told several people to fuck themselves yesterday.

I wish I could say I'm sorry for that, but I'm really not. That is what bitterness does to a person.

[sellitman]

77. I knew we could agree on something!

As a straight I have no use for those who are bigoted towards our Gay brothers and Sisters.

Fuckem all.

[meowomon]

7. Maybe Rosa Parks should have given her seat up that day...

and waited just a little bit longer.

[KittyWampus]

12. Maybe Obama should just wait until he starts trying to breach the divide. Some other time

when it's more convenient.

[Evergreen Emerald]

72. I don't believe that having a hate-filled divisive leader of hate

is "breaching the divide." I thought we were done with through the looking glass arguments.

[Lerkfish]

8. you don't have to be respectful, as I see it.

but you do have to disagree.

You have to stand up for what you believe is absolutely right.

Just like I do not "respectfully" disagree with torture. I disagree with torture with every fiber of my being.

[mopinko]

9. understand that hatred and war have served the human animal evolutionarily?

what raised us above the rest of the animal kingdom is not language, intelligence, or even commitment to family and tribe. it is war. it is force. it is murder. those other things benefit us mostly in that they have served war.
hatred is how we prepare for war. how we gird ourselves to kill.
we must evolve beyond it, or perish. it is that simple. both sides must set it down, but one must go first. mr darwin's laws would imply that that first one would be the smart one. the one to bring the tools of war to the peace table. the one to evolve. the one to survive.

[last1standing]

23. Based on your premise we will be exterminated for the good of evolution.

There is only one side at war here, the gay haters. The GLBT community wants only to live in peace and equality.

[mopinko]

47. you are going to be exterminated by 2 minutes of mumbo jumbo?

but, you missed my point entirely.

[Muttocracy]

28. War is not unique to humans - occurs in other apes, and territorial battles

within many many species.

[mopinko]

48. yes, but

no species has ever brought it to the level of humans. like making weapons. and strategery.

[Muttocracy]

49. less sophisticated, but chimps use weapons for hunting and certainly understand strategy. nt

[mopinko]

62. yes, and on that foundation the human race was built.

i hear chimps are just days away from a black powder weapon, tho.

[Muttocracy]

71. oh no, does this mean we're going to have to invade them too?

:scared:

[mopinko]

87. the question was- how do i respectfully disagree with hate.

my answer was- you understand that hate and war have served us well as a species. and from that understanding, you can start to retire them. to evolve beyond them.
my point was not- humans are haters and warriors, we are forever doomed to hate and kill. it is- humans are warriors. it got us where we are. but hate and killing have outlived their usefulness. let us find a way to make this change with love and compassion. it will be hard to move beyond something so ingrained in us. but let us begin.

[Are_grits_groceries]

10. "They are expendable. We don't need the LGBT group."

I fully believe that is the cold political calculation that was made.

However, it's not so much to me that I hoped and worked like I did and
then had to hear "We don't need you."

It is the fact that I worked and hoped so much and said "I need you, Barack."
He didn't hear that, and it is crushing. Because if someone that offered the
campaign message that he did doesn't hear me, who on Earth ever will?

[jberryhill]

11. How did these guys do it:

I genuinely don't know. Their people had been killing each other in large numbers not long before this picture was taken.

Here's a tougher one:

[last1standing]

14. Each of those people gave something up on their side for compromise.

What do you suggest that the GLBT community give up when it has nothing. There are no federal laws protecting us that we can compromise with. There is no legal declaration of our rights to work with.

Conversely, what have the gay haters ever ceded to us? They are not working on compromise, they are working on destruction.

Once again, how do you respectfully disagree with hatred?

[jberryhill]

18. Umm... I think that Warren should decline the invitation

I'm not asking anyone to give up anything, so you are asking the wrong person.

I still don't really see how anyone got Rabin and Arafat to shake hands.

[last1standing]

24. It's easy. I would shake Warren's hand if it would lead to GLBT rights.

Each of them had something to gain so they shook hands. There is nothing to gain for the GLBT community when there are no concessions being made by the haters and nothing for us to give up that hasn't been stolen from us already.

[jberryhill]

53. good point

[KittyWampus]

13. Learn to control your anger and channel it into constructive action. Refrain from demonizing your

opponents. Recognize and look for common ground. Stop identifying with those who are intentionally stoking your anger not just on the right but on the left.

[last1standing]

16. Comments like yours are the reason we are becoming embittered.

There is no common ground when one side works for your absolute destruction and denies you the right to be fully human.

[yowzayowzayowza]

15. With love of the person beyond the hatred.

A few Gandhi quotes fer ya:

"Hatred ever kills, love never dies; such is the vast difference between the two. What is obtained by love is retained for all time. What is obtained by hatred proves a burden in reality for it increases hatred."

"To forgive is not to forget. The merit lies in loving in spite of the vivid knowledge that the one that must be loved is not a friend."

"Hate the sin and not the sinner is a precept which though easy enough to understand is rarely practiced, and that is why the poison of hatred spreads in the world."

...and finally:

"A coward is incapable of exhibiting love; it is the prerogative of the brave."

[last1standing]

19. Please send that to Rick Warren and the others who hate us.

You seem to think this is some two-way battle when it is actually just one side working to destroy us. We want nothing more and nothing less than our human rights. We are not the ones working to take that away from others.

[jberryhill]

21. Then we must destroy them

As there is no other way.

[yowzayowzayowza]

25. Your two responses are an object lesson in Gandhiz point. n/t

[jberryhill]

26. No shit, really?

That's why I said "We must destroy them".

However, what you are failing to appreciate is that this particular "object lesson" - inviting Warren to give the Invocation - is fraught with counterproductivity. For among other reasons why it is an incorrect action is that it sends a mixed message, and it is causing unnecessary pain.

If you want to make a point by suffering through a hunger strike - that's fine - because it is your choice to suffer. But you do not enlist others to unwillingly suffer in your campaign.

If you want to have a mass confrontation of armed troops by peaceful protestors, every one of those protestors is a volunteer to the consequences. The LGBT community is being dragged to this, and the message is "your feelings are nothing to us."

[yowzayowzayowza]

27. Itz also fraught with opportunity to...

loudly & publicly vilify his immoral position and vindicate your humanity ... and his.

Mixed messages can simply be communications overhead.

[jberryhill]

52. I hear you

But I do not agree that the Inaugural ceremony is the time or the place for it.

[yowzayowzayowza]

57. Methinks after the campaign he jus ran,

Obama has earned the benefit of the doubt:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=103x410023

[jonnyblitz]

17. i guess we better figure this out because it's what were are

expected to do here at DU.

[last1standing]

22. We are to respectfully disagree with those who hate us on DU?

I think not. Whatever I may disagree with DU rules on, that is not one of them. Hatred of the GLBT community is forbidden here.

[Solon]

29. I can discuss the issue with the person without disrespecing them, but I don't respect their belief.

Nor do I necessarily respect them, respect has to be earned, you may have earned the benefit of a doubt for a moment, but I really have little patience for stubborn bigotry.

[last1standing]

32. It becomes a very one sided debate, though.

WARREN: You are no better than a child rapist.
GLBTer: No, I am a human being in search of his human rights.
WARREN: You are an abomination in the eyes of all that is good.
GLBTer: No, I am a human being in search of his human rights.
WARREN: You are living a twisted lifestyle and you must be cured through reprogramming.
GLBTer: No, I am a human being in search of his human rights.
WARREN: You deserve no rights because you are so promiscuous.
GLBTer: No, I am a human being in search of his human rights.
WARREN: You cannot settle down with a spouse and children because marriage is a holy institution and God hates your sin.
GLBTer: No, I am a human being in search of his human rights.....

You see how this goes? It isn't a discussion, it's a one sided debate where the haters are attacking us and we are just trying to claim our rights as human beings. The fact that people would call this a discussion at all here at DU is very disheartening. People here should know the difference between a discussion and a cruel, one-sided attack.

[Solon]

34. That's true, they would have to not disrespect me first, stating something like that...

involves a real life flame war, and believe me, I've been in shouting matches like that before, IRL and online.

[RetiredTrotskyite]

64. last1standing...

you have summed up the fundamentalist mindset beautifully. There can be no dialogue with these people. They are determined to make our lives as unlivable as possible. We want human rights. All the Ghandian non-violence in the world isn't going to change these people's mind...for Chrissake, some of these asshats want us imprisoned and forcibly reprogrammed! And Obama invites one of their high-profile haters to his inauguration!

[loyalsister]

30. For a moment

consider the possibility when it is and when it is not hatred. I reall think it is important to ask if it is fair to generalize.
I believe that often times, fear breeds language that is so insulting that one's own boiling anger is projected upon the other person. The other person's insulting language was born out of ignorance and fear rather than active forceful hatred.
Carefully opening a conversation can lead to surprising results. I have seen this in action. Something new is happening.
People who are aging are being marginalized more and more.
Especially with the more recent economic downturn. Suddenly, to their dismay, more ordinary white people than usual are finding themselves marginalized as people begin to consider them a drag on the economy.
Many of these people are the equivilent of the "white guys with confederate flag stickers on their pick-ups." They are evangelicals who may respond to language that does not traditionally come from Democrats. It is not anti-anything it is just "brothers keeper" language.
It is not impossible to convince them that we are all in this together if we are willing to put some effort into building relationships. But it does require some basic forgiveness. We are not going to change people's minds, but if we acknowledge that responses and actions are what matter we can work on some common goals.
I have had these conversations with people who have come a long way. It is frustrating but it can actually be productive if you open your heart. There is room for anger but if mutual respect is the rule, anger can be dealt with in a way that is productive and useful for everyone- without hate.
This is a small group action, but I wonder if we can start here. Can we begin using some mutual respect in this discussion? Like others, I am sad to see how it has devolved. I really think that there is room for all points of view. And yes, Robert Byrd, will probably attend the innaguration.

I know people who would not be comfortable with interacial dating in my family who voted for Obama.

[last1standing]

31. You're not asking us to give up 3% of our taxes, you're asking us to give up our humanity.

Even if for 'just a little while longer' you're asking - no, telling - us to forgive those who are working to harm us in every conceivable way. This is why we are becoming embittered. Our so called friends at DU want us to "forgive" people who haven't even pulled the knife out, yet.

It is very, very easy for someone who is considered a fully fledged human being in this country to tell us to wait. You don't have to sit there worrying that tonight someone you care about could be beaten to death for an action so mundane as going out in public. You don't have to hear an orderly tell you that your blood isn't good enough for a dying relative. You won't turn on the TV to be greeted with a show centered around "Not that there's anything wrong with that" and understand that they've just made your life a running gag.

You have marginalized us with your own words until the old people die off. Did you ever consider some of those old people are GLBTers who would have liked to have tasted freedom before they died?

[loyalsister]

38. You don't know me

I have been legislated against and trust me, I am not considered a full fledged human. Not even by DUers. Sadly, that assertion would make you laugh. I have been marginalized and ignored. Yet, I would have to prove it.

[last1standing]

41. No, I don't know you but I know that you have told me to wait for my human rights.

I'm not here to debate whether you have been marginalized, I'm here to say that it is wrong to do to anyone, yourself included. I will not be a happy servant to my masters, old or new. If I am not be be considered an equal then I will be embittered, as will millions of others.

[loyalsister]

50. I agree with you

And I respect your outrage.
The point of "mutual respect" for dialogue is it's a suggestion.
A possibility, however lofty, that people can open up a dialogue without judgement and without hate despite that outrage.

[kenny blankenship]

33. "Compromise" - a Virtue good in all instances!

"You give a little, you get a little," they say.

Of course, if you only had a little to begin with...



...you will probably end up getting fucked on the deal.
http://lh3.ggpht.com/farshadplus/RnArTkZE4cI/AAAAAAAAB3s/qJL1SnMR8Z0/cat+%26+mouse+,+Tom+%26+jerry.jpg

[last1standing]

42. That should be it's own OP.

Thank you for expressing so much in so few words.

[stray cat]

35. I see hatred on both sides of political divides only the issues and stances differ

[last1standing]

37. This isn't some issue where we just disagree. All the hatred is coming from one side.

Do you see the GLBT community trying to deny you your humanity? This isn't an 'issue', it's our basic human rights we're talking about. To suggest otherwise it to spit in our faces.

[pipi_k]

36. I guess to respectfully disagree with hatred...

a person has to really dig deep inside himself.

Responding to hatred with more hatred probably doesn't work any better than trying to teach people, by killing them, that killing people is wrong.

Maybe Obama's overture toward Rick Warren is a first step in asking us all to reach deep inside ourselves and come up with something better than responding to Warren's hatred with hatred of our own...

Just a thought...

:shrug:

[last1standing]

40. We are demaning nothing more than our basic human rights as people.

You are suggesting that we are engaging in the same behavior as Rick Warren and that is a lie. We are standing up for ourselves but being pushed back down by our so-called 'friends' who want us to 'dig deep inside' and then capitulate - again.

Obama isn't trying to teach us some great moral lesson, he is using us as an expendable token to endear himself with those who would have us sent back to the camps to await the ovens. He is on no moral high ground here.

[Odin2005]

39. I refuse to hate people I don't like, I pity them.

I pity them because they themselves are prisoners of their own self-consuming hate, victims of their own hatred, victims of upbringings and influences in their lives that infused hatred into their hearts. Hatred helps nothing, it only destroys and creates more hatred, more pain, and more suffering. Nobody is absolutely good or absolutely evil, hatred-fueled demonization of folks the other side also helps nothing.


In "Return of the Jedi" Emperor Palpatine tells Like Skywalker "Strike me down with all of your hatred, then your journey to the Dark Side will be complete." That is what a lot of DUers are doing, giving in to their own hatred, acting more like Anakin Skywalker rather then Luke.

[last1standing]

44. This isn't about us hating the haters, it's about them hating us.

We are being told to 'respectfully disagree' with those who would send us back to the ovens. These are the people who have worked to keep us from being considered full human beings. That is not hyperbole, it is fact. Every step closer to the ovens they can make us move, they gladly will. Yet, we are being told to politely disagree and respect all viewpoints. Would these same people suggest that I respect those who want to lynch black people or turn Jews into soap? It is exactly the same thing.

[bluedawg12]

43. Warren should have NO place at the table discussing gay civil rights.

What I have learned is that civil rights is not an issue left up to the majority. It is a battle to be waged legally, with laws and under the claim for justice.

[alwysdrunk]

45. What makes you think he will?

You are missing the point. Obama says there are SOME issue that they agree on, Warren may be consulted or cooperated with on those. On Gay rights, Warren will not be consulted. His opinion is know. When the gay rights issues come up. Warren will call and send open letters to the president. Then, it will be time to tell him "sorry, we'll just have to disagree here". Only one side of that disagree ment will be the president with the real ability to affect laws and statues.

[bluedawg12]

70. Glad you confirmed what we have been saying

inviting a bigoted homophobe hate speaker to our elected candidates inauguration will do nothing to advance gay civil rights- but I believe, as do many, that it may harm it.

[terrya]

46. I've wondered about that myself.

I "disagree" with someone who is a shill for the horrible "ex-gay" sham. I "disagree" with someone who is homophobic to the extreme. It comes off sounding like a dry policy pronouncement.

I don't "disagree" with racism. I hate racism. I abhor it. It is a horrible, shameful blight in our society, in our country. And that's what how it should be with any kind of bigotry.

[KakistocracyHater]

51. the question has been asked for as long as humans have talked

& it is the basis for alot of philosphies & religions, though most degenerate into clan-based bigotry when that religion has outlived its' usefulness. What is often overlooked is how society itself is part of 'evolution', inventions not made by personal family has still made many people live better off; people contribute far more with their inventions, their architecture, their mathmatical pioneering, their "new laws"-like the American Constitution. Animals have always been mothers & fathers, you can have that & lack cities, lack art, & all those "pop culture" things that archaeologists call "culture" & still be surrounded by children & parents. It's false to say homosexuals don't contribute & are wortheless to society, just like it is false to say Leonardo Da Vinci is worthless because he wasn't a father.

[WonderGrunion]

54. Your post title sounds like something

Cheney would say about torturing Islamic terrorists. We respectfully disagree with hatred because we are better than those that hate us. We do not resort to the bigotry and barbarism that they employ because we are right and they are not.

[last1standing]

55. People like you would have us 'respectfully disagree' on our way to the ovens.

You are all too willing to compare those of us who do not enjoy our full human rights to those who suppress us and deny us our humanity. You are part of the I GOT MINE brigade that is happy to push our rights to the curb.

[WonderGrunion]

56. "Our way to the ovens"?

Are you off to bake something while we continue this conversation?

[last1standing]

58. It's always nice to see someone make jokes about GLBT history.

I'll just put you on ignore since I'm determined not to let something like you turn this into a flamewar (which is what you're trying to do for your own sick amusement).

[RetiredTrotskyite]

65. Thank you for saying what needs to be said!

the talibangelical right hates us and would love nothing better than to exterminate every LGBT person on the face of the earth. All you compromisers out there: would you like us to sing "We shall overcome" as they march us to the ovens?

[AZBlue]

59. You rise above the hatred. Because you will not change minds with hatred in return.

It's not easy, it's something I struggle with every day, but it is something I consciously try to do and encourage others to do the same.

And, coincidentally, I see a great model of it in Barack Obama.

[last1standing]

61. It's hard to rise above with chains around your neck.

You see, Barack Obama grew up in a time when he had civil rights protections and the ability to live as an equal to everyone else. I know he had to suffer the pains of bigotry - in fact, I know all too well - but he did not have to suffer the pains of being legally inferior to those around him.

That is what I face every day. Do you? Have you been denied work because you're too effeminate? Have you been turned down for housing because the neighbors wouldn't understand? Have you been told you couldn't marry your partner because its unnatural? Have you been kicked out of the Red Cross because your blood isn't good enough to save a dying man? Have you ever been chased down a dark alley by thugs with baseball bats because they saw you come out of the wrong bar? If not, I think that telling me to rise above it is a little clueless because that is the life of a GLBTer and it looks like we're going to live with that for another four years with this president.

I asked how do you respectfully disagree with hatred but I'll ask another way. How do you respect those who would do the things to you that I just mentioned?

[AZBlue]

105. I know hate personally too.

I'm not gay, I'm obese. I'm ridiculed to my face and "behind my back" - and that's in quotes because you see I'm such a non-human that they don't have the decency to really hide their jeers and laughter. I've been told repeatedly that I am not getting a job because they need someone who "move quickly" (despite the fact that I'm quite agile and fast on my feet), because they need a "more professional image" (despite the fact that I dress and groom myself impeccably), or because someone's "more qualified" than me (despite the fact that I know the person that gets the job and they don't even have half the experience that I do). I haven't been told I can't marry because I don't even have a partner, no one wants to date a fat person (I have had guys tell me that if I were thinner though, they'd love to go out with me). Yes, as a fat person I've been physically threatened; had others, including medical professionals, make false assumptions about my health; been called horrible names and made fun of; had a woman on an airplane ask for any other seat so she wouldn't have to sit next to me; been told I'm not worthy to be a friend because fat is "contagious;" watched countless times as people moved in theaters when I sit near them (did I mention I don't "spill" over into other seats, nor do I have B.O.?); been told I'm obviously lazy and stupid; and so on and so on and so on. And, unlike the LGBT community, there is no public outcry when someone attacks fat people, there's no legislation to protect us, there's no defense or protection whatsoever.

So, please don't cry "poor me" and think you're the only one who faces hate because your part of the LGBT community. You've got a lot to learn about life if you really think that.

Oh....and yes, I do rise above it all. It doesn't mean that it doesn't bother me, but I know that hate will never be erased by hate in return.

[stillcool]

60. I do it all the time..

throughout my life I've dealt with people who hated one group, one person or another. I tend to listen, say something in response, and move along. I don't know if I've been responsible for opening any minds, shedding any light, but I've tried. As far as my own hatred, it has been a long, long, road to come to terms with those people that I have hated with all my heart. I realize that we human beings are all the same. That what goes in is what comes out. That what is present in one is inherent in all. That we are more than a snapshot in time. And that no one, no one is perfect or without fear, love, hate, envy, denial, delusion..yada, yada, yada.

[last1standing]

63. "I respectfully disagree with you firing me for being gay". Is that what you say?

Or maybe, "I wish you wouldn't keep me from seeing my partner on his deathbed, but I respect your opinion."

"Thanks for your input but I don't think kicking me out of this apartment was the right thing to do."

"Yes, I'm gay, but I really think you should have let me give blood to keep my brother from dying. Still, you may have some valid points."

I'm just not sure how you respectfully disagree with these people who push us down with rabid hatred so please let me know how you do it exactly.

[RetiredTrotskyite]

66. You Don't...you just don't.

[stillcool]

67. I have never used the words..

'respectfully disagree' while being raped and beaten, or being personally attacked. What I have done is interacted with people from very different backgrounds, and with very different views. And in those cases there have been exchanges that have changed my perception and sometimes I have changed theirs. I think that perhaps is what is known as 'respectful disagreement'. The ability to converse on one thing, while being in complete disagreement on something else. The political policies that have hurt me most, are one's beyond my control, but my passion for politics is born from my desire that no one else needlessly suffer as a result of those policies. And that is the change I seek. Maybe not in my lifetime, but the knowledge that I might change a mind or two, and kick the can further down the street is why I do what I do.

[last1standing]

68. Then you and I are talking about two different things.

Rick Warren is not going to change his mind because of respectful dialog. He has heard what we have to say and he denies our validity. He uses our pain to increase his income. He uses hatred of us to gain more power.

We cannot respectfully disagree with that because his desire is to hurt us. It is not a simple political debate, it is a matter of human rights. I can reason with the kid across the hall who calls someone a fag because he is ignorant of what that really means. Warren is not ignorant, he is hateful and greedy. He knows exactly what he is doing and he enjoys it.

[stillcool]

69. I agree...there is no respect...

to have 'respectful disagreement'. He is the worst choice Obama could have made. I don't think it's because of the bullshit he pushes, but because he is the face of the bullshit he pushes. Which therein lies the problem, no? He may be the current face, but it's what lies beneath..those people that buy that brand of bullshit that is the real problem. It is they that need to be reached..have 'agree to disagree' conversations with. Whatever the intent, it changes nothing. I think the consequences need to be dealt with. Either now when at least some people might be open to an expression of understanding from Obama, or later when less will be. I don't think there will be a capitulation on Obama's part, but I do not understand why he would not at least address the issue. Have some 'respectful disagreement'.

[bluedawg12]

73. The fundys are not our first on the list of priorities to talk to

there is much to be done within our own party and our own Democratic politicians.

Warren gives them cover.

[stillcool]

74. Warren gives them cover?

I don't follow that logic. My Senators, and my Representative would catch holy hell, if they stepped out of line on gay rights. I don't think it matters a whit, what they feel personally...politically they can't afford it. And I doubt very much there are many here who give a shit about what Warren says one way or the other. He may be well known in California but I had never heard of the dude until a few days ago. Yo-Yo Ma is a much bigger attraction than some fundy preacher dude in California.

[bluedawg12]

75. Here's a few.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=221x103494

[stillcool]

89. I think I get it...thanks.

[HamdenRice]

76. uhhh, like this?

Like, the way grownups in politics do it?

[LWolf]

78. You don't.

Please notice that all the campaign rhetoric, and preliminary administration building rhetoric, about "coming together" doesn't mean that mainstreet will reach out to the left, those who hold the Constitution, labor, health care, social equality, civil rights, sacred. It means that mainstreet will reach out to those on the right who are not yet on main street.

It's all about embracing the enemy, while spurning those who have been most abused.

[Fearless]

79. Hate the action if you must but embrace the person as your brother

It's the only way to disarm hate... LOVE.

[last1standing]

82. It is their hatred of us that is the problem. We can't force them to love us.

I agree with the sentiment but the reality is there is a force at work that wants nothing less than our total destruction.

[Fearless]

102. Well a sentiment is nothing if not put into action...

The great fallacy here is that it will be easy. It won't be easy. We are right, but sometimes being right isn't enough. They think they're right too. If we hate them as people for their beliefs, then we are no better than them who hate us for our actions. Somehow we have to break the cycle of hate. It is self-defeating and cyclical. Perhaps love is a strong word, maybe respect is more accurate. We must learn how to respect their good decisions and therefore hopefully respect the person overall themselves. Otherwise, who are we to ask for them to respect us for our beliefs. I've been trying to explain that we must have civilized discourse for a while now. If we don't, no change will occur. They won't respect someone that they can more easily hate. We are the ones that want to change the status quo. Therefore, we are the ones that must affect that change. They're surely not going to do it for themselves. In this world, hate is easy; love and respect take courage.

[PerpetuallyDazed]

80. We have to live together...

whether we like it or not. We can't just "dispose" of everyone who hates/disagrees us. That doesn't mean we can't be passionate or fight like a bat outta hell for what we believe is right, either.

As for the Warren pick: I vehemently (but respectfully) disagree with the choice!

[last1standing]

83. But do you respectfully disagree with Warren's hatred of me?

I can't respect that because my basic human rights are on the line. I'm guessing if you were put in my place you might see things differently.

[PerpetuallyDazed]

103. Warren: "hate the sin, love the sinner"

He does not hate you. He thinks that homosexuality is a sin. Big difference. Take that how you will, but I'm not trying to defend the man.

...and I still vehemently disagree with his opinions.

[wildonion]

81. It's more diffecult to respectfully disagree w/ 1-note idiots who resort to ad hominem attacks

[slackmaster]

84. When it isn't really hatred, but just a set of opinions based on flawed information

:nuke:

[last1standing]

85. That is ignorance and Warren isn't that. He has the real info, he just hates us.

n/t

[slackmaster]

86. Opinion noted

I respectfully ask that you and I agree to disagree on that.

[last1standing]

91. We can respectfully agree that it is wrong to deny anyone their human rights.

We can respectfully disagree on the best way to change that, but we cannot respectfully disagree on what the end result must be.

[Jennicut]

88. last1....I feel so bad for you.

But I think letting this get to you is going to tear you apart as a person. Anger is healthy as a way of letting out disappointment and unfulfilled dreams. But letting the anger go sometimes is okay too. There are simply people who will never change. I learned that the hard way through some personal problems of my own. Some people will never get it no matter how much yelling at them is done. My own mother in law thought for a long time I was not a good person, not good enough for her son. I used to really really hate her until the hatred made me into a hateful person myself...hateful to everyone. The problem is with them, not you... but the anger will be all yours and it can eat up the most positive of people until they are all black on the inside. It can change you until you become unreasonable to yourself. Don't let that happen to you. Being angry is okay, being bitter is okay. But know that letting the anger and bitterness be all consuming to you 24/7 will not help you one bit in the long run.

[last1standing]

90. Thank you, but there is more at stake here than just what others think of me.

You're mother-in-law didn't have the power to take away your basic human rights. She wasn't able to decide that you would be classified as less than human. That is what I, and those like me, must live with every single day of our lives 24/7. You cannot look at another person who enjoys the luxury of being considered a real human being without some feeling of bitterness when you are kept as a lesser person.

[Jennicut]

93. I know. She made me feel like less than human for 10 years but she

did not have any legal hold over me. I really am sorry.

[last1standing]

95. I'm not taking away from your own pain, just stating the difference.

I've seen it from your angle, too, and I know how much it hurts. I won't disrespect what you have gone through. :hug:

[Jennicut]

101. Thanks.

:hug:
I am sad that any of us here end up not seeing things from anyone else's point of view.
The level of hurt I have seen here by people who are gay has led me to be much more aware of homophobia in my own life. I am strongly on your side. I like Obama and Biden and I think they will be a good pres and VP but I am also very disapointed in them by this one decision. I think putting pressure on them is just fine, maybe it will change their views to think that civil unions are not discrimination when they are. Maybe they will change, maybe not. But continuing to speak out is the right thing. I just hate to see anyone take their anger and let it eat away at their soul until they become so angry about everything in life. I have worked hard to overcome things in my life. I am on speaking terms with my mil now, I have two children, her grandchildren. She has apologized to me after years of crap, I have forgiven her. I doubt the anti-gay homophobes like Warren will ever do that and they deserve your anger right now. I will stand with you on this.

[CrispyQ]

92. In his book, 'American Fascists: The Christian Right and the War on America'

Chris Hedges states that when you tolerate others intolerance, you are supporting intolerance. The radical religious right advocates hateful & intolerant beliefs & we as a society have let them get away with it, out of respect for their "right to believe as they want." They should be called out on their hate, intolerance & hypocrisy by all of us.

For anyone interested, Hedges book is very good. Here is a DU discussion on it in the non-fiction forum.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=209&topic_id=5027

[yardwork]

94. You're just up on your cross surrounded by Judases. Stop being such a baby, you reptile.

[last1standing]

96. I think that's IWantAnyDem you're talking about.

I know it's easy to confuse us. :rofl:

[yardwork]

98. I've been confused with Modnoh or whatever his name is all day. We all look alike.

[Hellataz]

97. 1st, you don't assume that disagreement or belief in something else is hatred

Don't get me wrong, there are for sure hateful people out there, but we are too quick to label people who disagree with us "haters".
I've been guilty of this, I wanted to run around my town and spray paint "bigot" on every yes on prop 8 sign i saw, and while i would have felt better, it wouldn't have accomplished anything. Most of these people aren't haters, they are ignorant. They don't hate gays, or wish them harm, they are just fearful of what they don't understand and have been force fed these bigoted ideas that Gays' will destroy their ways of live. The only way to cure this is to disprove their beliefs, show people gays aren't the abominations they are taught they are, show them that they are accepting of a lot of thing that the bible says they shouldn't be, in turn forcing them to face their own hypocrisy.

People tend to isolate themselves in their own social groups and it makes it so much harder to expose others to your values and lifestyles. So all they are left with is what they are told by others (mostly by clergy). But all it takes is for the gay community to reach out to people that are discriminating them and help them understand who they are as people, and stop looking at them like some label.

I hear all the time "They're wrong, why should we put in the effort, why should we reach out to haters?"
Answer: Because if you don't take the high road, your cause will never be furthered. You have to be proactive and stop assuming that because you are entitled to equal rights that someone is just going to give them to you. They wont if you don't make them.

[yardwork]

99. Where would you put being called a reptile? Hater, or not?

[last1standing]

100. I've dealt with this angle many times throughout the thread. Please read those responses.

I'm not trying be snarky, but it gets old trying to explain the same thing several times when the answer is right there.

[Hellataz]

104. I don't think you're snarky, but i also don't agree and felt the need to give MO

The "answer" may be "right there" for you, but it's not necessarily the right answer, it's simply an opinion, just like this was mine.

[Skittles]

106. I DON'T

I FUCKING TELL THESE APOLOGISTS TO STUFF IT UP THEIR ASS

[TheKentuckian]

107. You stand up to it. You never relent. You stay on message. You repudiate and educate.

but you do not stoop to the level they are trying to bring you down to.

Acting just as you are treated but with the sure knowledge that right is on your side ain't doing it.

How did blacks in the south stand up to the hatred of dogs and fire hoses being turned on them? How did people like Dr King respond to being thrown in jail? How did Ghandi respond to the Brits?
It wasn't returning hate for hate nor was it by shutting up and waiting their "turn". In this I'm a strong third way advocate because it fucking works. Not smoothly, without tremendous sacrifice, or pain but it works.
You get out on the streets and get on the airwaves and make your case and keep making your case.

Read some history. There are numerous examples of how to deal respectfully and effectively with hate but it is easier to throw a fit and flame.

[Neshanic]

108. Because they never have known it's purest form in most cases. Otherwise there would not be the

posts that get put up.