Chavez pushes for more time in office

[wyldwolf]

CARACAS (Reuters) - Venezuelan President Hugo Chavez on Sunday urged supporters to work on a constitutional reform that would let him stay in office as long he keeps winning elections, a year after voters narrowly rejected this same proposal in a referendum.

The anti-U.S. leader is pushing forward the controversial proposal to eliminate a two-term limit for the president just a week after regional elections in which the OPEC nation's fractured opposition gained ground by beating Chavez allies in key states and the capital of Caracas.

http://africa.reuters.com/world/news/usnTRE4AT2HU.html

[anonymous171]

1. I wish he could stay longer. The ruling class hates that guy.

[ecstatic]

2. The people said no. nt

[anonymous171]

3. I understand.

I'm not a Chavez fan really. I just like the way he inflames our corporate overlords. He's an authoritarian gasbag, but he's a leftist one.

[EFerrari]

7. And they can say no again.

[wyldwolf]

11. right! Chavez can put it up for a vote as often as he wants!

:eyes:

[EFerrari]

16. Why do you hate democracy?

Now, we're criticizing people for voting?

lol

[wyldwolf]

27. no, silly, we're criticizing people for power grabs

[EFerrari]

30. What kind of dufus dictator puts his power grabs up for a popular vote?

lol

[wyldwolf]

35. I dunno. Saddam Hussien did

:shrug:

[EFerrari]

41. Venezuela's voting systems are more transparent than ours.

Saddam's weren't.

A lot of people can't stand Chavez, that's fine. But to equate him with a real dictator just shows how effective the propaganda is up here. :shrug:

/oops

[Occam Bandage]

43. Oh FFS. My computer is as scatterbrained as I am.

[Occam Bandage]

44. Agreed. Chavez is not manipulating the vote directly.

We can differ on his motives and where his sights are set, but it's pretty silly to deny that he is still constrained by the law.

[EFerrari]

47. If he weren't constrained by law, there would be no need to vote a referendum.

[anonymous171]

49. Correct. Chavez is not my favorite, but I always end up defending him here.

If he is upsetting the corporate elite that much, he must be doing something right.

[Sebass1271]

51. he must be doing something right" and we should ignore

the rest of his bullshit bad policies just cuz his pissing the elite...

[EFerrari]

55. You've yet to show a "bullshit bad policy".

I wasn't born defending Chavez.

In fact, like on so many issues, I only even noticed him because he is constantly attacked in the American corporate press.

Once you track down the cr@p they say about him five or six times, and it always turns out to be cr@p, your perspective changes.

Like any politician, he may someday do something that I disagree with or hate. Meanwhile, that's not the point for me. The point is to ask the question, who benefits from demonizing Chavez in the American press?

[Sebass1271]

24. agree.. the sarcasm in some DUERs is really

scary.. in one forum, the love chavez because he is a leftist, mind you, the guy is a total lunatic with the highest unemployment rate, highest poverty and highest crime reported in years...

according to some loving-democracy-leftist, he is just great cuz he is helping SOME POOR PEOPLE.

same shit with Castro.. same lame duck excuse for Castro's dictatorship of 50 years just because the Cuban people have some freaking free health care and free education where not one graduated doctor can find a decent job.

It is really mind blowing to me.. :crazy:

[EFerrari]

29. You can't back up any of those claims because they're not true.

Except maybe the crime rate. That is a problem. And the constant incursion of the Colombian paras contribute to that.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=405x10261

[Sebass1271]

46. I do have proof.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/story/2008/11/18/ST2008111801141.html

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/southamerica/venezuela/3184293/Venezuelas-murder-rates-surpass-Colombias-under-Hugo-Chavez.html

this one in spanish
http://www.guillermocasanova.net/index.php?title=banda-ancha-en-venezuela&more=1&c=1&tb=1&pb=1


poverty in Venezuela:
http://www.rethinkvenezuela.com/downloads/ceprpov.htm

[EFerrari]

48. Crime is a problem. Your poverty link shows a steady decline

in the number of households living in poverty.

[Sebass1271]

53. This data is from 2005, i recenlty read in La Palma a

local Spanish newspaper that poverty level is high, much higher than the one i gave you here.. however, i couldn't find the link to back my recent read. Will continue to search for it.

[EFerrari]

56. Thank you. n/t

[Occam Bandage]

17. That's the way democracies should function, after all:

with the leader constantly putting up Constitutional amendments allocating him greater and greater levels of irrevocable power, and with failures nothing more than temporary delays in the inexorably increasing trend towards greater power for authority.

Chavez is the Colombian Bush: a power-hungry, yet ultimately ineffectual buffoon with delusions of historical grandeur, who loves to preen and posture on the world stage, but yet who has yet to see any of their actual end goals accomplished in a beneficial manner--and yet whose supporters blame the powerless minority's "obstructions" to explain away their failures.

Edit: lol Colombian. How the hell did that happen? I'm leaving that in as a testament to insanity.

[EFerrari]

21. No, Uribe is the Colombian Bush. Chavez is president of Venezuela. n/t

[Occam Bandage]

23. I cannot believe I actually wrote that. I blame 3 hours of sleep.

[EFerrari]

31. It's all right. Never mind. n/t

[anonymous171]

22. Also uses America like Bush used OBL.

"If you're not with me, you're with the terrorists"

"If you're not with me, you're part of the American imperialist plot!"

[Occam Bandage]

33. Every good authoritarian needs an internal enemy and an external enemy.

Bush had The Librul Elitists Who Love Terrorists, and OBL. Chavez has The Oligarchy Which Is Defined As Whoever Is In My Goddamn Way, and George Bush.

[EFerrari]

40. Except, in Venezuela, it's been mostly true. We pour money in there

via USAID and NED and others to f#ck with Chavez.

And, BushCo has been ramping up their attacks on democracy in Venezuela, Boliva and Ecuador in the last six months. You'd think they'd done enough damage but no, they want more.

[anonymous171]

42. Do you have any links?

I am trying to become more informed about the recent situation there but all I can find is propaganda (both corporate and leftist.)

[EFerrari]

50. I do understand that. This discussion has been overheated for years.

I'd suggest cruising the Latin America forum because things tend to be quieter there and just posted, not blasted for effect one way or another.

I did read this morning that Colombia is voluntarily withdrawing one of its diplomats after he was caught in a more or less seditious conversation with an opposition candidate. Chavez said if Colombia didn't withdraw him, he'd be expelled. Colombia said, we'll withdraw him. Apparently, the conversation is on tape.

And this matters because, it looks BushCo made screwing with Chavez a condition of Colombian aid/ support / whatever you want to call it. Colombia, in other words, is not an independent agent.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=405x10252

[anonymous171]

52. Thanks! nt

[EFerrari]

60. I should be able to do better and apologize.

I remember an article that was put out during the referendum last year that documented glossy fliers used by the opposition that told people if the thing passed, the government will own your children -- funded by USAID. But, I'd have to look for that link as I don't have it.

There has been so much cr@p. In the run up to the referendum, our press was saying college students were against Chavez AND after digging, I figured out that the AP was counting both the opposition students AND the counter demonstrators as demonstrating against the Chavez government. It was wild. More recently, a high profile student was assassinated and the American press leaped to imply it was Chavez -- and it later turned out he was involved in an organized crime syndicate that sold student transit passes on the black market.

It goes on and on and on.

He was accused of anti-semitism because some of the coup plotters met more than once in Jewish community centers, were found out and were subject to investigation -- in which no property was destroyed or anything like that. But, because there was an investigation, the opposition took no time at all to call "anti-semitism".

I also remember reading a whole article in the Miami Herald that had a general, an academic in Florida that was a Venezuela expert and a former friend of Chavez in Venezuela as the three sources. They all turned out to be something else, not neutral at all. Two of them were rabid, long time opponents with financial interests (the article didn't mention that) and the third was making a political bid against Chavez.

:crazy:

Do check out the Latin America forum. That's the sanest venue at DU on this stuff.

[wyldwolf]

4. if Chavez is the president and the congress is controlled almost entirely by Chavez supporters...

...doesn't that make THEM the ruling class?

[anonymous171]

5. I was talking about economic class.

[EFerrari]

6. No. It makes them the party in power.

We're Democrats and have a majority but that doesn't make us the ruling class, does it?

I'm sorry you didn't catch this piece when it was posted to the other three forums.

[wyldwolf]

8. so they're in power but they're not ruling?

... honestly, the leftist rhetoric gets confusing sometimes

[EFerrari]

15. In a country where the media is largely owned by the oligarchy

ditto for much of the manufacturing and transportation industry, it does get confusing. Much as Nancy Pelosi can be Speaker in a House with a Democratic majority and not "rule".

[Occam Bandage]

20. And a media in which Chavez has exercised unprecedented interventionism.

Not exactly buying the "oh, it's the ill-defined, nebulous oligarchy making Chavez act like a power-grabbing asswipe" line.

[EFerrari]

26. Well, no.

RCTV's lost its license after FIVE YEARS because they manipulated the news during the coup, they lied to the populace about Chavez resigning and then, they HOSTED the inaguration of the guy who tried to overturn the elected government of Venezuela.

If MSNBC tried to do that, ya think your government would simple wait FIVE YEARS to let their license expire?

Right!

[Occam Bandage]

12. Chavez controls the government.

He is the ruling class in any definition but the most stringently, pigheadedly Marxist.

[anonymous171]

18. See #5

[EFerrari]

19. Monarchs rule, democracies govern.

Maybe you have to be a pigheaded Marxist to get the difference. :)

[Occam Bandage]

25. And his endless stream of "Give me more unchecked power forever" amendments

should tell you in which box Chavez's heart lies.

Edit: My god, "amendments which Chavez is?" "Colombia?" I'm turning into Sarah Palin.

[EFerrari]

45. Don't do that!

:)

There has been 1 prior one on a ballot with fifty other things, which was imho, stupid.

I've no problem with him putting this to a vote. He's not signing horrible shit in the dead of night like our torture president.

[Occam Bandage]

9. dupe.

[Occam Bandage]

10. Wow. Chavez trying to change the Constitution to give himself more power yet again. I'm shocked.

[Sebass1271]

13. chavez lovers here MUST BE THRILLED WITH THIS

NEWS!!.. I mean, all in the name of Democracy right? What the hell, lets just re-type the entire constitution of Venezuela so the guy can stay for another 20 more years.

[NYCGirl]

14. WOW. Who could've seen that coming?

:evilgrin:

[wyldwolf]

28. who on DU thinks the Obama administration will cater to this dictator?

[anonymous171]

32. He's not a dictator. He probably wants to be one, but he's not atm.

Obama should just sit down with him and ask him what's up with all the America hate.

[Sebass1271]

58. first post that makes me laugh.. but it is true.

Obama: What's up with the hate?

Chavez: I don't know..

Obama: So, calm the fuck up.

Chavez: As long as you leave me alone so i can change the constitution and retain power for the next 20 years, i'll leave you alone

Obama: I may look pragmatic to you and the rest of the world, but I will not let you retain power against your country's will.

Chavez: Why do you hate us?

Obama: I don't hate you, I just love Democracy and respect the will of the people.

[Occam Bandage]

37. He isn't really a dictator. He's pushing to become one, and future

wannabe dictators will probably study his rise to power, but there are still checks on his power, as evidenced by his repeated attempts to get voters to abolish the Constitution.

[EFerrari]

66. Please source your claim that he has tried to abolish the constitution.

lol

Come on.

[EFerrari]

64. You really are in desperate need of a dictionary that is not completely

comprised of right wing memes.

[nsd]

34. Why is this in GD:P?

[resident bunnypants]

38. Good question. nt

[wyldwolf]

39. why is this still GD:P?

[me b zola]

65. That is what I was going to ask

:wtf:

[sufrommich]

36. He's a blowhard with a huge ego. I expect nothing less. nt

[camera obscura]

59. Same. I got attacked for saying Chavez is the mirror image Bush, but just look at him.

[EFerrari]

61. President Chavez has never violated the Venezuelan constitution.

He's never tortured any one.

He's never started a war of aggression.

He's not lied to the electorate.

He's been elected over and over.

How is he any kind of mirror image of that?

Sometimes I think Americans hate Chavez because as abrasive as he can be, he's been 100 times better than what we've had for the last 8 years.

[Sebass1271]

62. i am with you. i have gotten attacked for saying the truth about

Chavez.

[EFerrari]

63. You have been challenged to provide sources for your allegations.

Maybe that qualifies as an attack?

[Arctic Dave]

54. Didn't NYC amend their laws so Bloomberg could run again?

If so is Bloomberg a power hungry zealot with delusions of grandeur?

[Occam Bandage]

57. He's power-hungry, at any rate.

I don't believe in indispensable men.

[donco6]

67. Uh . . . yeah. n/t

[Hippo_Tron]

68. Americans, especially right wingers, have an unreasonable hatred of Chavez

Yea the guy is a buffoon but given our history of installing right wing regimes in Latin America, it's hardly surprising. We need a hands off of Latin America policy except when it comes to truly genuine national security concerns. Venezuela can deal with Chavez without the constant assaults on him by the US media. Frankly, they only help him make his case that he should stay in power because we're gunning for him.

[Forkboy]

69. .....

[SOS]

70. He wants the people to vote on it?

Hell, do it New York City style.
Just bypass the voters and pressure the City Council to amend the term limits.
The term limits that were approved in a voter referendum in 1993.
"Dictator" Mike Bloomberg!

[Danger Mouse]

71. Hmmm...we'll see where this goes.