Here is why I dont care for token success, whether it be women or gays or people of color

[La Lioness Priyanka]

Having one gay person on the cabinet or one woman SOS or some such thing doesn't really mean anything. This particular post i will speak mainly as a gay woman, though i find much of this true to being a non-white person as well. This token success makes people blind to our real oppressions. Having one gay person in the cabinet doesn't speak to the oppression of the group. Gay rights will not advance from this one gay person. This person will probably not have enough power to change the minds of those who thing gays are undeserving of equality or are sinful etc. Having one gay person or one woman in a powerful position is really only advantageous to the person who got the post. I find these token successes very unhelpful because it really just makes people say, well XYZ made it so the group oppression is clearly over.

So whether one gay person makes it to Obama's cabinet is really very low useless to us as a group.

If they do, great for them, meh for us.

[Uzybone]

1. Maybe they will find a gay Clarence Thomas

I'm sure those asking for tokenism will be happy, no?

[La Lioness Priyanka]

4. thats unlikely since obama isnt bush sr.

[glowing]

2. Kinda like saying now that we have a black president, we're sooo over racism in this country.

NO, is still well and alive, but 53% better.

[La Lioness Priyanka]

3. as a country over the last decade or two we have moved from racism to classism

i have found that very few want to have this discussion, since we dont like to talk about the poor in general

one of my fav books on the subject was "the declining significance of race"

[Renegade08]

9. No, that's not true. Great disparities still exist based on race and racism.

Black people are poorer than white people in terms of overall wealth (property, income, investments, etc.). The disparities are really stark. Relative income parity between whites and blacks gloss over the overall wealth inequality that continues to persist.

[La Lioness Priyanka]

12. no one said that there aren't disparities but the disparities are moving more

toward a race + socioeconmic class rather than pure race.

[Neshanic]

32. Yes, racism is officially over, you did not get the memo.

[La Lioness Priyanka]

35. did i say that? i said the oppression is moving more w.in economic class

than just race. racism isnt over.

[Neshanic]

42. So a homeless advocate would be out of the running? Tokenism? Again?

Oh now we are going socio-economics.

Right to marry the person I love or a flat screen....decisions, decisions!

Oh, you are talking about the great downtrodden, the unwashed masses. That gets some great play and quite the amazing responses here too. Homeless people using animals as props, that kind of thing.

Now, where is that ex-homeless republican cabinet guy we want?

[La Lioness Priyanka]

43. why would a homeless advocate be out of the running?

i'm going to stop this back and forth w. you because you dont make any sense to me. we can have a difference in opinion without resorting to hyperbole and insults. however you seem to not want to do that and you are beginning to not make sense to me.

[Raster]

5. While I support affirmative action and other efforts to even the playing field...

I do not believe a person's skin color or sexual identity should be a qualifier for a cabinet post. I don't want someone because they are gay or black or female. I want the smartest, most capable PERSON for the position no matter their sex, color or sexual identity. That is one matter...

Now for the other: This country has NEVER experienced complete and total equality for all. NEVER. It is my fervent hope that an Obama administration is the beginning of examining and rectifying ingrained sexism, racism, ageism and homophobia. The United States needs to sit down and have a nice long chat with itself.

[rug]

6. Does that apply as well to the office of President?

[La Lioness Priyanka]

7. yes, while i am sure the country feels better that it can now get past color

and its good to have a great role model in such a highly prominent position but unless it actually transforms to policies that help poor black communities w.education, jobs, opportunity it doesn't matter.

clarence thomas for instance has been around for a while.

[dsc]

8. No one is saying it would

anymore than electing a woman would end gender issues or electing Obama ends racial ones. But what we are saying is that if Obama were to appoint a cabinet with no women he would be lead out of town on a rail. If he leave out gays it will be "Oh well, no qualified gays". If he can't find a qualifed gay he didn't look all that fucking hard.

[Democrats_win]

10. Diversity can benefit a business or a government.

Especially in a government. The voices of gay people need to be heard and what better way for that to happen than for a gay person to be seated at the seat of power?

If gay people can't function in our society, our society suffers. But gays can and do contribute in so many ways. Personally, the fact that gays can be fired for just being gay, makes my desire to participate in capitalpigism much less.

[hulklogan]

11. What if a gay person has equal qualifications to a straight person?

Wouldn't it benefit the President-Elect and the country as a whole to have a more diverse cabinet by choosing the gay person over the straight?

There will be tokenism in the Obama cabinet. It might be a token Republican, or a token ethnicity, or a token part of the country. I think it is time that LGBT Americans get to be part of that tokenism.

[La Lioness Priyanka]

13. ofcourse, my point is just that it may not end up mattering to the group

as opposed to the individual

[Uzybone]

16. Tokenism is different from diversity

Clarence Thomas is a token, Bill Richardson is diversity.

Harriet Miers would have been a token, Ruth Bader Ginsburg is diversity.

This is simple to understand.

Throwing an unqualified gay person on the cabinet just to please the gays is tokenism. If there a qualified gays out there, I'm sure they will be duly considered and may even be picked.

[Neshanic]

33. But it's only ONE person, so if like an AA ran for president and won...oh...

[La Lioness Priyanka]

its hardly tokenism when an african american candidate wins overwhelminingly in a national election

but just selecting one gay cabinet minister, is hardly near that kind of victory

[Neshanic]

39. Oh I get it. It's all bout numbers for you. I wonder if Rosa Parks thought numbers.

It's only me, I should wait....I will sit in theback of the bus.

Democrats like you are classic. Reaping the rewards of others, then qualifying your approval of fruits of their success and fighting later from a comfortable postion.

[La Lioness Priyanka]

40. yes, because i do not necessarily believe that appointing one gay cabinet minister changes

everything i am sure I " Reaping the rewards of others, then qualifying your approval of fruits of their success and fighting later from a comfortable position."

:eyes:

[Neshanic]

41. How sad. Really. Kind of for the want of a nail. One person does make a difference.

Sometimes history changed with one person's actions.

Very sad and quite pathetic that you need a certain number to reach critical mass for change, in light of having the first AA President and the journey that got us to this. All started by individuals a long time ago.

[ecstatic]

14. Never underestimate the power of role models and symbols

Yes, the symbolism is important. It doesn't change sexism, homophobia, or racism, but it gets the haters used to seeing people in different roles, while also giving members of the underrepresented someone to identify with in that particular field.

[Occam Bandage]

15. I have nothing to say but kick and recommend.

[ismnotwasm]

17. What I would like to be assured of

Is the opposite. That qualified Gays or Blacks or women, other minorities or historically subjugated or rejected people of all kinds are NOT excluded because of sexuality, race and gender (including transgender dammit) I bet, there are all kinds of qualified Gays in government who are not "out" because it would destroy their careers. Can't have too many token gays when our society still denies them basic human rights.

Tokenism is demeaning, yes of course, and I agree with your point. But would I love to see a Black (Or Latina, or Native American etc) Lesbian president someday with no-one batting the proverbial eye. In my lifetime.

[La Lioness Priyanka]

23. absolutely and i should have made this CLEAR in my op. which i did not.

[kwassa]

18. When is success merely a token?

What it does do to have a minority in a prominent position they haven't been in before is to get the public at large to think of these people as worthy. It gets the public to see them at all. By itself it will not change the entirety of public attitude, but it will be a piece of the change.

A token is one who is put in a public position with little real responsibility, in my opinion. They get the lesser cabinet positions, if at all. Bush pulled an interesting trick; he had the first black Secretary of State, and the first black National Security Adviser, both important positions, but then he gave real foreign policy power to two old white men that were Vice-President and Secretary of Defense. Powell and Rice became semi-tokens, IMHO.

One gay legislator with a very high profile is Barney Frank. I would consider him influential, well-known, and definitely not a token. It really depends on the level of responsibility entrusted to the person.

[La Lioness Priyanka]

25. well barney frank and obama are slight different in this regard, largely because they were elected

and not picked

again, i do not mean to imply that a qualified gay person should NOT be chosen, i just dont think he has to find a gay person. or that if obama did find said gay person, gay rights would advance

[bridgit]

19. rec 5

[XemaSab]

20. You're right

It's time to get rid of affirmative action for once and for all.

If you don't meet the admission standards to get into Berkeley, sorry, Charlie, the spots should be reserved for people who really earned them. Same for positions on companies, and positions on Obama's cabinet.

I mean, what does letting ONE underqualified black person into Berkeley do for the black race as a whole? Nothing.

/sarcasm

[mrbarber]

21. Crazy idea.....

Maybe they weren't chosen because they were gay, or black, or any other factor other than their ability to actually perform the job well?

[acmavm]

22. Oh please, that couldn't possibly be the reason.

:sarcasm:

[La Lioness Priyanka]

24. absolutely. and i should have been clearer in my op about this

i meant that NO ONE qualified should be excluded. just that by merely being included and part of a minority does not necessarily aid minority rights.

[genna]

26. There is a fair amount of tripe involved in the idea of tokenism being a block on progress

How many people (tokens I assume you'd call them) did it take before one half African became U.S. President who could not talk about race without being neutral?

4.

It took Shirley Chisolm, Jesse Jackson, Al Sharpton, Sen. Carol Mosely Braun.




So should 4 people who were tokens sit down until the entire race moved forward so that they could be sure not to block the success of a future Obama?


How about trying to integrate a public toilet (tokenism) before Tennessee sanitation workers could get equal benefits from the state?



It must be great to sit in a comfortable space (b4 you say it, I'd say it can't be altogether comfortable when 48 states choose to keep marriage away from gays) and tell people who are uncomfortable, if you can't do it as a WHOLE well you might as well not do it all.



Do you really question the importance of Billy Jean King as a token in the gay rights movement? I don't.


I hate the Cosby show references people use as paving the way for Obama. I will defer to those who lived in majority white households who embraced those images.

[La Lioness Priyanka]

27. how many assumptions before you are wrong?

first of all people who get elected to office are not tokens. tokens by their nature are people selected to be positiions of power because of their minority status.

a state law is not tokenism. its a law. :wtf:

"great to sit in a comfortable space and tell people who are uncomfortable," I am a woman, of color, gay and an immigrant. get over yourself.

also this thread is partly to address the discussions in this forum about whether or not we need a gay cabinet member, and your other references are out of context

[BlooInBloo]

29. Aw hell. You beat me to it.

[BlooInBloo]

28. The Man certainly did a good job on you...

Really the only key words missing from your post are "quota" and "less-qualified." Work on that.

[La Lioness Priyanka]

30. yup. nt

[Neshanic]

31. So it's the numbers. I get it. Good thinking! As another gay, speak for yourself.

[La Lioness Priyanka]

34. i did. did i say this was the opinion of all gay people?

[Neshanic]

36. Your comfy big gay chair. Sit there and watch,

"So whether one gay person makes it to Obama's cabinet is really very low useless to us as a group."

[La Lioness Priyanka]

37. does that sentence even make sense to you?

[Neshanic]

38. Your sickening premise. Correct me if I am wrong.

Having one gay person in the cabinet is tokenism, better to wait and have more so it does not look like tokenism.

Is that about right?

"Having one gay person on the cabinet or one woman SOS or some such thing doesn't really mean anything."