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Pennsylvania's voting machines are almost ENTIRELY electronic, without any paper trail.

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BzaDem Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Oct-20-08 11:21 PM
Original message
Pennsylvania's voting machines are almost ENTIRELY electronic, without any paper trail.
Edited on Mon Oct-20-08 11:59 PM by zlt234
Interest in Pennsylvania is picking up. McCain's camp seems to have conceeded that if they don't win PA, they will lose the electoral college (http://politicalticker.blogs.cnn.com/2008/10/20/mccain-... /). There has been much talk about McCain putting all his chips in PA (including bringing back Wright, bittergate, etc etc).

Given the spotlight and speculation about PA, it is important to remember that the state almost entirely votes on electronic voting machines that have no paper record whatsoever (including in Democratic strongholds such as Philadelphia). The following is a map of PA, color-coded by the type of voting equipment.

http://www.verifiedvoting.org/verifier/map.php?&topic_s...

As Brad on Bradblog.com states, elections in PA therefore become entirely faith-based. There is no evidence whatsoever that any votes were cast at all for most of PA. There is plenty of evidence that it is relatively easy for machines to be hacked to silently flip approximately every 25th or every 50th vote only during election hours, which would be hard (if not impossible) to detect.

So what happens if pre-election polling puts Obama ahead by 8%, exit polls have him ahead by 6%, and yet McCain wins by 1%?

The exit polls were off over 6% in the primary (and they were also off in the 2004 presidential election by a similar amount). Exit pollsters will simply chalk it up to older voters not wanting to be interviewed by younger pollsters, non-response bias due to a Bradley affect, and various other excuses (outlined here: http://www.politico.com/news/stories/1008/14778.html ).

But let's say that excuse doesn't fly (or that Obama wins by double digits in all polls yet still loses). Let's say Obama's massive legal team takes the election to court. Let's even say the court can be persuaded that fraud occured (possibly enough to swing the election). It would be very unlikely that a court could be convinced of this, but let's say for the sake of argument that they are convinced.

What could possibly be done? Even if the court found evidence of fraud, what could possibly be done to correct the outcome? There wouldn't be any way to recount or audit any of the votes. The only possible way the election could be resolved would be to have another election.

This would be unprecedented. But even if the court would agree to such a massive remedy (which again is very unlikely), how would that work? Would the election be on the same voting equipment? Or would they switch to paper ballots (a process which has taken many other states months or years to implement)? How would people know to come out and vote again? Would turnout even approximate the turnout on election day?

The one thing that bodes well for Democrats is that there is a Democratic secretary of state (which might prevent some fraud). But my whole point is that even if we don't have a Blackwell or a Harris in charge of elections, what could possibly be done if the results on election day diverge so much from all reasonable polling?

Finally, some would say that we don't actually need PA, and that we have many other paths to victory. This is a very dubious proposition. Even if we win Colorado, Virginia, Iowa, and New Mexico (plus all the Kerry states), losing PA would cost us the election. We would need to win those 4, as well as Florida, Ohio, North Carolina, or Nevada. This is possible, but it certainly isn't guaranteed (especially given that the national polls are expected to tighten somewhat, which will slightly lower Obama's margins in most swing states).

We need to win PA by a margin that is impossible to steal (if such a margin exists). That is why it is a good thing for Obama's campaign to spend large amounts of money and time. A 5 or 6 point victory may not cut it (and even that would be double Kerry's margin of victory).



Edit: a poster below saw firsthand evidence of a paper trail in part of Philadelphia, so it is possible that the above site is out of date for some areas.
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AndyTiedye Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Oct-20-08 11:23 PM
Response to Original message
1. THAT IS WHY McAINT BELIEVES HE CAN FLIP PA!!
Looks like all the pieces are falling into place for the Repiggies to steal it again. CRAP! :cry:

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iceman66 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Oct-20-08 11:34 PM
Response to Reply #1
14. I think so.
Everyone should recommend this thread!
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endthewar Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-21-08 04:36 AM
Response to Reply #1
34. You really think Rendell is going to allow that to happen?
If anything my money is on the Dems cheating in PA. :rofl:
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kickysnana Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-21-08 07:52 AM
Response to Reply #34
35. If Jesse let them cover up the Wellstone crash and Mayor Coleman allowed a police state at the RNC
Yes I think it could happen.
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City Lights Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-21-08 09:08 AM
Response to Reply #34
37. Do Dems have access to the software that tallies the votes?
I thought it was proprietary.
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AndyTiedye Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-21-08 10:30 AM
Response to Reply #37
43. It Is. rob-(yourstate).zip is a Special Service Diebold Only Offers to Republicans


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City Lights Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-21-08 10:47 AM
Response to Reply #43
44. That's what scares me.
x(
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Phredicles Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Oct-20-08 11:25 PM
Response to Original message
2. So, should PAans photograph their ballot screens?
Edited on Mon Oct-20-08 11:26 PM by Phredicles
I'm sure there's a better idea, but I can't think of it. I'm just grateful Los Angeles uses paper ballots.


PS: I hope the massive legal team Obama has engaged sends a hefty detachment to Pennsylvania.
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gmoney Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-21-08 09:15 AM
Response to Reply #2
38. What would be the point?
really, this idea of giving voters some sort of receipt is kind of weird to me. What would they do? Someone demands a recount and they try to round up millions of receipts (those that aren't thrown away) and count them? Even if you were to cross reference some tracking number to see if a particular vote was switched as 'evidence' wouldn't a rigged system just display the original informtion, but tabulate bogus information?

Millions of cell phone photos would be even more useless and unmanageable, and more susceptible to fraud or allegations of fraud.

We should have the fucking UN or Canada run our elections...

I do agree about the need for a paper trail, but I can't believe how we can decode the human genome, but we can't find an accurate and tamper-proof way to vote?
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lonestarnot Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Oct-20-08 11:25 PM
Response to Original message
3. Just fucking crazy. I don't know why intelligent people can't figure out how to vote and have
evidence of their fucking vote. Just fucking nuts!
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mwei924 Donating Member (990 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Oct-20-08 11:26 PM
Response to Original message
4. They should really have a print option.
Or like "send to email address" for records. It's so ridiculous. When you book a flight or buy shit online, they always send you a confirmation email.
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mucifer Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Oct-20-08 11:27 PM
Response to Original message
5. so why bother going there?
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BzaDem Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Oct-20-08 11:32 PM
Response to Reply #5
10. If we win by a huge margin, it becomes harder to steal.
For example, if we win by a 10% margin, more votes would have to be flipped (which might make it more likely that someone would find out before the election). It's not a guarantee, but its better than nothing.
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mw Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Oct-20-08 11:29 PM
Response to Original message
6. At least PA's governor is a Democrat nt
nt
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lonestarnot Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Oct-20-08 11:30 PM
Response to Original message
7. What if someone set up a separate way to count PA votes privately?
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Seen the light Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Oct-20-08 11:31 PM
Response to Original message
8. Democratic governor, Democratic Secretary of State
Obama up by an average of 12 points, McCain hasn't led in a single poll done there since April, PA went blue for Kerry when conditions were better for the Republicans....

And I should be concerned?
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BzaDem Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Oct-20-08 11:34 PM
Response to Reply #8
16. As I mentioned, the fact that Democrats are in these executive positions helps us.
But that doesn't stop local election officials or even fraudsters that don't work for the government to slip in a card with a virus that flips votes. This has been demonstrated as possible many times (see "Hacking Democracy").
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Marsala Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Oct-20-08 11:35 PM
Response to Reply #8
17. Yes, because the Repukes control EVERYTHING!!!
There is obviously a massive conspiracy that has buried impossible-to-trace programs in all voting machines of the state, and there's nothing we can do about it. We might as well just give up.
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BzaDem Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Oct-20-08 11:37 PM
Response to Reply #17
19. The conspiracy doesn't need to be massive, and it only needs to happen in Philadelphia.
Edited on Mon Oct-20-08 11:39 PM by zlt234
And my entire point is that we shouldn't give up. One way to defeat them is to make it much harder to steal by pouring more resources into the state (making the margin much harder to overcome). Especially since spending more resources in PA won't hurt any other state (given the 150 million dollars Obama got last month).
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ellie Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-21-08 09:20 AM
Response to Reply #8
41. I feel the same way about
Ohio: Democratic governor, Democratic Sec of State, both of who will make sure the votes are counted accurately.
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riqster Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-22-08 12:49 PM
Response to Reply #41
54. And neither of whom actually control the election process
Please understand this: the actual capturing and tabulating of the ballot is done by, and with devices provided by, PRIVATE INDUSTRY. For a fact, BOE's cannot run an election without 'contractors' from these companies. Companies that, with one exception, are owned by Dominionist Republicans.

Brunner and Strickland are good people, glad I voted for them. But they do not control the vote.
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scheming daemons Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Oct-20-08 11:31 PM
Response to Original message
9. Which is why I'm REALLY glad that Fast Eddie is our governor and Pedro Cortes is our SoS

I find it hard to believe that some Repuke was able to get to ALL of the machines.


Does anybody know if they received a "software upgrade" from Diebold in the past year?
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cybildisobedience Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-21-08 12:34 PM
Response to Reply #9
47. don't have too much confidence in either of them
They have been huge proponents of the paperless voting systems.
Voting rights activists have been v. frustrated by the response to their concerns by both Rendell and Cortez -- neither of them seem to "get it" about voting machines, or, worse yet, understand the issue but don't really care.
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scheming daemons Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Oct-20-08 11:33 PM
Response to Original message
11. The same machines were in place in 2006 and Casey beat Santorum 59-41

...THAT gives me comfort that the Repukes haven't corrupted the machines.
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life_long_dem Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Oct-20-08 11:54 PM
Response to Reply #11
26. That was before Palin's witchdoctor entered the picture.
If he can cast out spirits he can surely cast in a few as well. He will simply put a hex on the voting machines.

:snark:
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iceman66 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Oct-20-08 11:33 PM
Response to Original message
12. The Democratic secretary of state and other officials
need to do their fucking job - select a random sample of voting machines from around the state and put them through extensive tests prior to 11/4 to make sure they are not programmed to 'flip' votes. Do not allow any "patch" to be installed on the machines (like in GA in 2002) before the election, and ensure that they are not able to be accessed remotely. Similar tests should be run on the central vote tabulation system, in case that is where the 'flip' is programmed to happen.

If the election is stolen in PA, our party leaders will share at least a small part of the blame - they have had SIX YEARS to fix this problem, and have apparently sat on their hands. We can only hope that more has been done behind the scenes than they have let on!
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gemlake Donating Member (535 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Oct-20-08 11:37 PM
Response to Reply #12
18. Great post. We have to pray that something is being done.
Edited on Mon Oct-20-08 11:39 PM by boreDem
Now that we have first hand testimony that GA Senator race was stolen, no Democrat should ever trust electronic voting again.
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iceman66 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Oct-20-08 11:41 PM
Response to Reply #18
20. This is a problem that is 100% correctable.
And yet our leaders have done next to nothing.

They must like to 'lose' elections!
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gemlake Donating Member (535 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Oct-20-08 11:33 PM
Response to Original message
13. You forgot to mention MO as an alternative path to victory
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liberalmuse Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Oct-20-08 11:34 PM
Response to Original message
15. Well, well, well.
Now this would explain things, wouldn't it? They plan to steal PA!
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iceman66 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Oct-20-08 11:45 PM
Response to Reply #15
21. There is NO other way they can win PA
barring some unforeseen massively game-changing 'October Surprise' - although if something like that happened he wouldn't NEED PA because there are tons of other states where Obama's lead is smaller.

So the ONLY explanation for this so-called 'strategy' is that they think they can somehow steal it!
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kath Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Oct-20-08 11:46 PM
Response to Original message
22. People tried and tried and tried to get Democrats in Congress interested in election reform, but
hardly anyone gave a shit. So here we are, all these years later, with faith-based voting in far too many places.

Sucks to the max.
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greenmutha Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Oct-20-08 11:50 PM
Response to Original message
23. Oh shit.
There is NO sense in McCain quitting Colorado and doubling down in Pennsylvania. None.
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.ph...

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redirish28 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Oct-20-08 11:52 PM
Response to Original message
24. My wife and I live in PA she is instisting we go to the the court house where the voting department
(Forgive me i can't remember the offical title is) and double check that we are is on the records.
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Lord Helmet Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Oct-20-08 11:53 PM
Response to Original message
25. some states allow you to ask for a paper ballot
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MrSlayer Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Oct-20-08 11:56 PM
Response to Original message
27. My voting machines (In Philly) are electronic but they do have a paper trail.
I got to see it first hand when I ran for committeeman.
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BzaDem Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-21-08 12:00 AM
Response to Reply #27
29. Thanks for the info. I put that in the OP.
Edited on Tue Oct-21-08 12:00 AM by zlt234
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MrSlayer Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-21-08 12:06 AM
Response to Reply #29
30. You're welcome.
They aren't touch screen electronic either. They are that plastic coated blinking light type. I'll find out the exact model.
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ladywnch Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Oct-20-08 11:56 PM
Response to Original message
28. I'm scheduled to work at the polls on election day. I was told that
if we see problems and call it in to the HQ, the campaign will have attorneys at the polling place in 15 minutes.....15 minutes. I hope this is true. Colorado has paper ballots and only a very limited amount of electronic voting machines (at least for Boulder County). I was told by an election judge that there would only be one electronic machine per precinct (very single threaded) and paper ballots for everyone. It would appear they are trying to promote paper over electronic.
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Marnieworld Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-21-08 12:55 AM
Response to Reply #28
31. Are you working for a campaignon election day or the actual polls?
I am working the actual polls just to do my part to watch how it works but I haven't had my training yet. I am curious if youa re a poll worker but you will call a campaign if there is a problem?
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ladywnch Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-21-08 11:45 AM
Response to Reply #31
45. I believe the job title is 'poll watcher'....I'll be there watching and crossing names off our lists
so we the campaign can then call anyone who hasn't voted (who has already indicated support) and see if they need a ride, if they're still planning to show up, etc. I haven't had my training yet either, but I've been working in the campaign office and picked up on some things.
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Marnieworld Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-21-08 06:13 PM
Response to Reply #45
49. Thanks for answering
I am actually an election worker but I will contact my local Obama office for that number to call that if I see anything I will try and get away to call if necessary. I am working a small PA district with touchscreen machines. I will more than likely be the main person with the machines which is why I volunteered. I'd hate for someone to lose a vote because a poll worker is afraid of computers.
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kster Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-21-08 03:28 AM
Response to Original message
32. THE ULTIMATE ELECTION THEFT, unlike the optiscan paper ballot smuggling machines
the DRE/touch screen machines have no ballots to smuggle out of the neighborhood, the ultimate election theft................

STOP THE BULLSHIT

Transparent Ballot Box, for 500 - 800 Paper Ballots, with Deposit Trap and Counter
Easy to use, sturdy and stackable. Lockable with two individual locks. Deposit trap is operated using a lever which is coupled with the counter. Can be safely stored in the reusable protective box.



Hand Count the Ballots before the ballots are allowed to leave the polling place.

We all know better for christ sakes



K&R........
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orleans Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-21-08 04:28 AM
Response to Original message
33. i read an article that said some of the more rural areas are so
limited in population that maybe only 12 people would come and vote. and because of such few in number, the poll worker would be able to remember who came in before who and look at the tape roll to see who so-and-so voted for.

so because of that the entire state (except philly) is fucked out of a paper trail?
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MH1 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-21-08 09:17 AM
Response to Reply #33
39. Not just remember, the voters are written in books in the order they come in
BUT then the voters can go to either of at least two machines. I believe even in the smallest precincts, there has to be at least two machines in case one breaks. So, even if you know who voter # 6 was, how do you know which machine they voted on? Unless the poll workers only opened one machine, which in my county is illegal.

In short even that is a bogus reason.
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iceman66 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-21-08 09:04 AM
Response to Original message
36. Kick.
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wowimthere Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-21-08 09:18 AM
Response to Original message
40. let's not forget one thing... Rendell is still the governor
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wvbygod Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-21-08 09:23 AM
Response to Original message
42. Way too much tinfoil material to consume
Neither party has any advantage over the other when it come to cheating. Sometimes you
just have to trust the system. No one party could hack the system enough to make any kind of difference in election outcome.
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JPZenger Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-21-08 12:02 PM
Response to Original message
46. When machines were ordered, no paper trail ones were "certified"
I raised the issue of a paper trail with my county commissioners in PA a few years ago, when they were selecting the new machines. At that time, they said that none of the officially "certified" machines had a paper trail. They had to order certified machines to receive the Federal funding.
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WeDidIt Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-21-08 12:36 PM
Response to Original message
48. If your scenarion plays out, the goal would be to DENY McCain the Electoral Votes
So long as neither candidate gets to 50% of the electoral votes, Obama wins.
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robertpaulsen Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-21-08 06:35 PM
Response to Original message
50. Recommending. We've got to keep a double digit lead there. Rendell is right to stay vigilant.
If they try to steal this and exit polls show a double digit lead, the fraud will be obvious, and the game, at long last, will be over for the fascists.

:kick:
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AndyTiedye Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-22-08 12:37 AM
Response to Reply #50
51. Wouldn't Surprise Me if the Exit Polls in PA Have "Computer Problems" Like They Did in GA in in 2002
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robertpaulsen Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-22-08 11:56 AM
Response to Reply #51
52. Yep. That & GOP challenges against every single ACORN registration.
MSNBC reported on that this morning. Looks like that & machine manipulations will be their primary efforts to flip PA.
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tigereye Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-22-08 12:21 PM
Response to Original message
53. please remember that PA went for Kerry in 2004
and we elected a lot of Dems in 2006 with the electronic machines, many of which have a feature to verify your vote before it is registered, at least the ones I have used.
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gauguin57 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-22-08 01:01 PM
Response to Original message
55. Lancaster County, PA, uses optical scan paper ballots.
The ballots stay inside the machine till they are sent to the Elections Board at the end of the night (in case a recount is needed).

We also have a computer-screen method (not touch-screen ... you use a wheel to navigate the menus), which is supposed to be for those with disabilities (though others use it). That has no paper trail.

One of our assigments as Democratic volunteer greeters outside the polling place will be to remind people to use the paper ballots so there will be a paper trail.
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