I like Joe Biden. However.

[terrya]

As a gay man, it still...hurts, for lack of a better word, to hear him deny me and other gay and lesbian Americans our right to the institution of marriage, as he did last night. We deserve the right to marry. Period.

Someday, we'll get there.

[WeDidIt]

1. I don't think you heard what he said

He said what a marriage is should be defined by faiths.

My religion doesn't care if it is a homosexual couple, you can be married.

Catholocism, not so much.

[terrya]

6. He and Obama are pushing this idea that we can get the same rights...

in civil unions as those in marriage. That's flat out impossible. Civil unions can not, will not grant the same rights and benefits as marriage. Plain and simple.

I'm not religious. I would never be married in a church. My partner and I would get a civil union, IF the state of Illinois granted them (which they don't). But that civil union would not grant us the same legal rights and benefits as marriage.

Again, I like Joe Biden. But it still pains me to hear him, to hear Obama, refer to marriage solely as "one man and one woman". Which he did.

[GOTV]

12. If you were a Obama strategist ...

... and the number crunching showed they'd likely lose if they insisted gay people should be allowed to get married, would you still recommend that they take that position?

[terrya]

18. Please don't lecture me about the political aspect of it.

Yes, they would be damaged by it politically. There's a civil unions bill in the Illinois Legislature right now...and even that isn't anywhere near a sure thing to pass. A bill that wouldn't grant gay and lesbian couples the same rights as heterosexual couples.

Joe Biden stood up there last night, and said that I am not deserving of the instituion of marriage as you are, as other heterosexual couples are. And that pisses me off. I have given my share of money for this ticket. And I will continue to do so. But as a gay man, I am pissed off that he looked into the camera, at me, and trotted out that "marriage is one man, one woman" stance. Period.

[GOTV]

25. Ok, you're pissed. I asked what you would do. Pissed or not, decisions must be made ...

... taking no position is not a option for them.

I think they would be fine with gay marriage, but I'm glad they took the position they have because it's an advancement of civil rights and each step enables the next.

[my3boyz]

48. Would you rather him say the opposite and then lose because of it? Would

you rather have the Republican win? Listen...I TOTALLY agree with you! I think you should be able to get married. However, some things will just kill you politically. Unfortunately, majority of the country is not willing to accept same sex marriage. :(

[Labors of Hercules]

54. you forgot one word at the end of your sentence...

", YET." :thumbsup:

[chupacabranation]

61. I understand where you're coming from...

...it tweaked me as well.

I know it's not on the same scale, but on some level, it's like fundamentally denying the intrinsic worth of gay men and women, in the same way racism or slavery might deny someone's intrinsic worth...

...I totally get you on this - and I wish they were willing to take the gamble...

[PVnRT]

27. Christ, let's not go down this road again

It was bad enough in 2004.

[dansolo]

71. Why do you think that you can't get the same rights?

Isn't it theoretically possible that a civil union could be defined legally that would instill the same legal rights as a marriage? You state it as an absolute, but you are clearly wrong. The rights given to married couples were granted by Congress through legislation, so civil unions could be granted the same rights. Now you could argue that it may never happen because of the political aspect, but that isn't what you said.

[Bonn1997]

9. At best, that's evasive

He could have given a powerful moral argument where he said it's up to religions but he hopes that one day every religion will give loving, gay Americans the same right to marriage that heterosexuals have.

Maybe that would not have been smart politically. And I definitely cannot say that I would have advised him to make the powerful statement above. But by placing the power in the hands of others ("faiths") without even saying how he'd like those others to use that power, he did evade the issue. I can definitely understand how the OP feels and I'd feel the same way if I were gay.

Palin screwed up though when she said that there was no difference between the two campaigns on gay marriage or gay rights. I bet conservatives were thrilled to hear that!

[GOTV]

16. I don't think Palin really said there's no difference....

.... I think she awkwardly said that there was no difference on the point that marriage is between 1 man and 1 woman and then the moderator, trying to keep to the schedule, quickly missummarized her view as the two campaigns agreeing on civil unions and Palin let it stand.

If I could see the exchange again this morning I might have a different view but that's the impression I had last night.

[Bonn1997]

34. You may be right. I'd like to see it again.

[cboy4]

23. Wrong, wrong, wrong. Marriage should not be defined by

faiths, especially since NOBODY is mandating that religions sanction same sex marriages.

[Orsino]

45. Yeah. That was just stupid.

Marriage licenses don't require religious faith, or any input at all from religious figures.

Biden is wrong, wrong, wrong, and it shows in this latest convoluted excuse for discrimination.

[demokatgurrl]

52. That's where Biden is wrong

marriage is not defined by "faiths". It's a legal contract, defined by the state. "Faiths" and their clergy have been given the right by the government to officiate at marriage; however, such religious marriages are bound by the laws of the state.

[bigscott]

2. I agree 100%

my main (but not only) disagreement with the BHO-Biden ticket is the fact neither one of them will grant me the equal rights i deserve.

[H2O Man]

3. Right.

When Obama and Biden take office in January, the progressive and liberal democrats will have to work even harder on a number of important issues, including this.

[PeaceNikki]

4. Yeah... that was really disappointing.

I hate that Democrats skirt around the issue, carefully trying not to "offend" the religious right rather than openly and fully support equal rights. :(

[dipsydoodle]

5. I might be wrong

but I'd understood them both to say they would support all rights but still maintain that marriage by defination is between a man and woman.

[soccermomforobama]

21. That is along the lines I was thinking of

I thought Biden was saying: leave what defines marriage to your faith (if your faith believes marriage is any two adults who want to share a life together or if your faith believes that marriage is 1 man and 1 woman) but from a legal aspect he and Obama want gay/lesbian couples to have the same rights at heterosexual couples

Palin- marriage=1 man and 1 woman

[BumRushDaShow]

36. That's exactly what I thought he was trying to say too...

The term "marriage" and what that means is the hangup here. A "legal" (state-sanctioned) "marriage" (union, partnership) should not have the state restrict who can enter into the agreement, whether race, creed, religion, ethnicity, orientation. But if a religious group wants to define the term "marriage" differently within their own worldview, that's on them.

[femmedem]

7. If Gwen had asked them whether or not they support a constitutional ban on gay marriage

I think you would have liked his answer better.

However, I agree it is extremely disappointing that he personally does not support gay marriage.

[cali]

8. yes, it's always disappointing to hear that marriage=1 man+1 woman

crap coming out of the mouths of dems- even if they lace that statements with caveats as Biden did, the message that the public hears, is obvious.

[dipsydoodle]

10. It has been so for hundreds of years -

marriage=1 man+1 woman.

If anyone don't like that then invent a new word - don't pull the american stunt of redefining an existing word or even worse changing the spelling to make life easier for dumwits. The english language is the english language.

[H2O Man]

11. Silly.

The word is from the Latin root "maritare." You don't own it.

[cali]

13. no, the enlish language is not static.

quite the contrary. and marriage is now the word for the union of same sex couples in both MA and CA now. It's utterly absurd and flat wrong to claim that "the english language is the english language".

[PeaceNikki]

14. Oh, bullshit. Etymological fallacy

http://wordnet.princeton.edu/perl/webwn?s=marriage
Marriage
Noun

S: (n) marriage, matrimony, union, spousal relationship, wedlock (the state of being a married couple voluntarily joined for life (or until divorce)) "a long and happy marriage"; "God bless this union"
S: (n) marriage, married couple, man and wife (two people who are married to each other) "his second marriage was happier than the first"; "a married couple without love"
S: (n) marriage, wedding, marriage ceremony (the act of marrying; the nuptial ceremony) "their marriage was conducted in the chapel"
S: (n) marriage (a close and intimate union) "the marriage of music and dance"; "a marriage of ideas"

Where the fuck does that restrict man and woman? It doesn't our CULTURE has added that caveat. RELIGION has added that caveat. NOT the English language.

[GOTV]

17. The english language changes every year and over time changes substantially ....

... and eventually marriage will lose its gender distinction.

Tee english language is only the english language today.

[cboy4]

24. ...

:wtf:

[Orsino]

47. Wrong.

Same-sex marriage already exists, and there's no harm in expanding the right to wed to a greater number of consenting adults.

Drag your own feet if the idea frightens you, but please don't demand that others wait for you to join the twenty-first century.

[Moochy]

53. You show a profound lack of understanding about language

That so-called "American Stunt" has been around since Ogg first grunted to Gokk "Hey Leave my cave or I'll bash you with this Femur!"

[Nevernose]

60. That's totally unfair:

You're completely misrepresenting the position of Ogg. Everybody knows that whoever has the biggest scrotum gets to be in charge of the cave. But did Ogg demure? No! Gokk -- without the consent of his recently stolen concubines, I might add -- maintained his assertion that the possessor of the hairiest scrotal sack should be cave leader, clearly an indefensible position. What choice did Ogg have but to use a giant ground sloth's leg bone to splatter Gokk's brains across walls festooned with crudely drawn stick-pictographs of antelopes? What choice did Ogg have left, I ask you?

[bullwinkle428]

57. Before making a "cold, hard fact post", Google can often be your friend!

[dipsydoodle]

62. I prefer

the Complete Oxford English Dictionary - English version of course.

[Left Is Write]

64. For someone so hung up on language, you show an appalling lack of respect for it in your post.

[La Lioness Priyanka]

68. yes, because clearly today we use the same language as shakespeare did

[Solon]

69. Actually, for most of those hundreds of years, it was 1 man + his property, did you buy your wife?

Just asking, asshole.

[Guava Jelly]

15. Yea

It bothers me as well.
As a straight man,I hope we get there.
It just isn't fair.

[A-Schwarzenegger]

19. For everybody who agrees, please help defeat Prop 8 in California.

http://www.noonprop8.com/home

[terrya]

20. I'm giving money to Equality California, if that helps.

I think instead of another donation to Obama/Biden right now, I'll give some to defeating Prop 8.

Thank you for posting this.

[babylonsister]

22. I don't blame you for being hurt. I think their position on this is wrong,

and I do hope someday this country will be able to acknowledge their prejudices and move on. Gay people deserve every right I have; I'm sorry you're hurt.

[CarbonDate]

26. I agree.

And I do so as a straight man.

But I do take heart in the fact that the McCain campaign doesn't see any advantage in using the gay marriage issue as a whipping post to use in this election. I hope that means that we're moving in the right direction.

[Christian30]

28. Gay here, too

And my boyfriend and I had the exact opposite reaction. Biden did effectively what the Right-wing usually does. He parsed his words so that those who support gay marriage or civil unions know that they won't oppose them while not giving red meat to the religious fundies. While I understand that it's hard to hear less than a full-throated endorsement for our rights, I think you can look back at the Kerry/Bush and Gore/Bush debates and see how much progress we've made.

[Montauk6]

29. Another way to look at this

Now Mocaine and Sarahcuda have to square this with THEIR bible-thumping constituents; she basically cosigned the "evil, liberal" agenda. I say they'll be flip-flopping all over on this one.

As for Obama-Biden sticking it to gays, well if the goal is to have the word/title before all the ideas behind it (the privacy/property/tax/etc. rights), then yeah, under THOSE guidelines, they got screwed.

[Meshuga]

30. From what I understood from the Obama/Biden position...

...it is a question on semantics. He is saying that religion should decide who they marry. So if a Rabbi or a minister wants to perform a gay marriage the government should not intervene. The same would be the case if a priest or a rabbi does not want to marry a homosexual couple. In this case the government should provide a union that gives the same perks of marriage to who cannot get clergy to marry a couple (whether gay or straight).

The government, in the Obama/Biden opinion, need to come up with a "marriage" that has another name (civil unions) to guarantee that homosexuals can get the same privileges and perks as a married couple. I think the Obama/Biden ticket need to stress that these unions should be stretched to heterosexual couples as well.

So the question is who gets the benefits and privileges of marriage? And Biden was pretty clear last night that gays and lesbians have rights to those benefits and privileges. If people want to fight over the word "marriage" in a useless semantic game that's their right. But that is just what it is.

[jpgray]

31. It sucks. Whatever the "strategic considerations"

:hug:

And we will get there.

[deadlyaj]

32. Being pro gay marriage is political suicide in 2008

even a large % of democrats are not for it

[PeaceNikki]

33. What?

Where do you get the idea that "a large % of democrats are not for it"?

Please explain.

[Starry Messenger]

37. I really doubt that.

But since you didn't post a link, I don't have to take what you said seriously anyway. :hi:

Signed: a pro-marriage for all humans Democrat.

[terrya]

38. Thanks for that entirely unsupported claim.

And thanks for pushing the same bullshit I heard in here from 2004.

[Bubbha Jo]

51. I was surprised at the approval ticker during that...

The watchers must not be equal marriage rights either. Sad... but then, it was Ohio.

[Politicub]

35. It's been a long road to get what little we have now

but I trust Obama and Biden to not set us back. McCain Palin would be a disaster. McCain supports a federal marriage amendment.

[Bonn1997]

39. A Psychologists' Perspective

Drew Westen, a psychologist at Emory University, argues that much of the gay bashing is based on fear. And psychologists have found that the best treatment for fear is GRADUAL EXPOSURE. (If you fear spiders, a therapist doesn't throw 1000 spiders at you at once. He might get you to touch a toy spider, then observe a real one, move closer to a real one, etc., in gradual steps over multiple sessions.) When repeated exposure in gradual steps happens and nothing bad results (be it nothing terrible when briefly touching a spider or when gays are given civil unions), habituation occurs. That is, the stimulus loses its emotional power. Thus, he predicts that civil unions will be a crucial first step toward gay marriage. And you'll never get that crucial first step from Republicans. (BTW, I'm a psychologist at a little college in Alabama.)

[polichick]

40. Yes, you deserve the right to marry - our guys have decided voters aren't ready.

[LWolf]

41. I heard a bunch of things I didn't like.

No surprise. I've never liked them, hence my opposition to an Obama nomination.

In addition to what you mention, I strongly oppose the use of the so-called "clean coal" and nuclear power. I don't "love" Israel more than any other nation. I'm not fired up to continue the so-called "war on terror" in Afghanistan or Pakistan.

All of that aside, Biden clearly dominated. I'm glad.

I'd be gladder if the Democratic ticket didn't propose so many things I oppose.

[Marrah_G]

42. I can't imagine how that must feel

I wish our side would stand up for equal rights. I can understand their thinking during the election, but it still makes me sad.

I'm sorry you are hurting.

[Orsino]

43. Yep. That stunk.

And seeing so many Democrats feelig they have to pretend to hate same-sex marriage hurts me.

I hate that our LGB brothers and sisters will either be second-class citizens under an Obama Administration, or third-class under McCain.

[MiniMe]

44. I got tired of Palin's "I have a friend who is gay" meme, and her insinuating that her friend

had a choice.

[seabeyond]

46. someday you will get it yes. but wasnt it fun hearing him say gay marriages a couple

times as if it was the most common thing in the world.

before it became a wedge issue in 2000, the american people overwhelmingly didnt care. until the repugs made them have a fight in it.

[chiefofclarinet]

49. I think it all comes down to semantics

Right now, many Americans are scared of the thought of "gay marriage." A whole lot less are scared of civil unions, and still less don't want the GLBT community to have equal rights.

Traditionally, (I understand that it is only tradition and culture.) marriage has been between 1 man and 1 woman. Nearly every religion believes that. The federal government, under the 1st Amendment, cannot tell a church to do something. This includes consider two people married. (This extends beyond same-sex marriage. Divorcees that remarry, and I think widows that remarry, are considered adulterous in the eyes of the Catholic church.)

I think Joe Biden, and with him Barack Obama, wants to extend the definition of a civil union to be everything a marriage is in the eyes of the government. The only reason he doesn't want to give it the name of marriage is that his religion says that a marriage is between a man and a woman.

I don't want to be concerned about what to call it; I want to be concerned about giving equal rights in the government to the GLBT community.

[maseman]

50. My best friend is gay

He and his partner have been together something like 12 years. He always tells me "Who the hell wants to be married...just give me the same rights." I see his point.

[SmokingJacket]

55. Yep, it's terrible.

We WILL get there, and sooner than some people think. It's inevitable.

[southpaw]

56. I agree, terrya

And yes, someday equal marraige rights will be a reality.

It is sad that Obama and Biden have to sell the issue short, settling for civil unions and avoiding full on support of marraige rights, but I think it is politically necessary at this point.

In all honesty, I think both Barack and Joe fully support LGBT marraige rights, but they don't want to introduce that wedge issue into this campaign.

I can deal with the compromise, because there is too much at stake right now to hand the religious right the 'gay marraige' wedge.

[endthewar]

58. Honestly, if you feel very, very strongly about gay marriage

then you shouldn't vote for the Democratic ticket. I hate to say that, but that is the truth. Obviously I'm not advocating against the Obama, but the fact remains that the Democratic Party is content with their platform on gay marriage right now not because they believe it is right, but because they are staking out the middle ground here. :hug:

[electron_blue]

59. I'm sorry. :(

Sometimes I think they are just saying what it takes to get elected and I hope they do what's right once in.

[BrainStorm]

63. I hear you. The worst thing was hearing that

he and Palin seemed to agree about gay marriage.

It's like we don't get a break anywhere.

NO ON PROP 8!

[TexasObserver]

65. You do deserve the right to be married. I'm sorry enough Americans don't agree yet.

[Pithlet]

66. I cringed last night when that question came up

even before he started answering the question, because I knew what the answer was going to be, and I felt shame. I don't blame you one bit for being hurt. I understand that they are probably taking this position for political reasons, but it's still a big shame that it even has to be that way. You do deserve the right, and I think we will get there someday. It should have been now.

[Warren DeMontague]

67. Yep. I'm not a "my party, right or wrong" kind of guy. In this case, they are WRONG.

Fortunately, there is a whole new generation coming up that sees this for the civil rights issue, the FAIRNESS issue, that it is.



You're right, someday we'll get there.

[FrenchieCat]

70. Most likely sooner than you expect.

Just like Barack will be America's First Black President, sooner than it was expected.

I'm rooting for equality period. We shall overcome sooner than some day, me thinks.

[iiibbb]

72. It is coming my friend... be patient...

[LeftCoast]

73. I just married my partner of 7 years. I heard him say he doesn't feel my marriage is valid

I know that's not exactly what he said, but that's what it sure felt like.

I'm still going to vote for them, but the obligatory being thrown under the bus episode each election cycle still sucks.

[terrya]

74. Congratulations on your marriage.

Your husband is a lucky man. :-)

Thank you for your comments. Sometimes, I'm not all that accomplished putting my thoughts into words. This was something that bothered me last night. I should have felt happy with the end result from the debate...but yet, Biden made that comment. I suddenly felt I, along with you, and other gay men and women, just didn't matter to Joe Biden, to Barack Obama, to the entire campaign as much as heterosexual people do. That Biden and Obama and the campaign didn't value GLBT people as much as heterosexual Americans.

I'm logging off for the night. Thank you again.