The only groups Dean is "alienating" are. . .

[Brian_Expat]

. . . far-right Republicans and scared status quo Democrats who couldn't win an election against Tom frickin' DeLay. For a large plurality (soon to be majority) of voters, Dean's fiscal discipline, principled stand for civil constitutional liberties (including politically incorrect ones), and record of positive visions for America with unrelenting criticism of Bush's disasterous agenda will win Dean the nomination and the White House -- simple as that.

That some would try and equate him to Ted Nugent one day, and Walter Mondale the next, is more indicative of sheer desperation than any logical arguments on their part. I look forward to the inauguration of President Howard B. Dean, who will restore the USA to the dignity, respect, and responsibility she was once known for around the world.

[Capn Sunshine]

1. Amen

Tell it, brother
President Dean

retired general Clark
has a nice ring to it

[Melodybe]

15. Why are you slammin on Clark? It just makes us look petty.

[wndycty]

48. Don't worry we have grown to expect that. . .

. . .regardless of our devotion to the Democratic party many Clark supporters are used to being told we are not real Democrats. Well we are, and we just have to realize there are those who will seek to push us away.

[ayeshahaqqiqa]

2. Amen!

I agree with your sentiments!

[Bombtrack]

3. actually it's pretty hard to win an election against Tom Delay

his district is safe. he get's about 80 percent of the vote usually

He also might alienate, oh, middle class voters who don't want their income taxes raised, people who can't relate to a hamptons/park avenue arrogant snob, people who do infact presume Osama's guilt

The 2 thirds of the electorate who favored/continue to favor the action of the war, and isn't willing to be turned around by a defense policy novice, the half of the electorate that wants stricter gun control.

I will go on if need be, but someone else can take the rains. This horse is easy to ride

[Brian_Expat]

4. Terry McAuliffe Democrats lost an election to DeLay

across America, because they were afraid to take him on directly.

You cannot beat the Republicans by acting like one or appealing to their base. You beat the Republicans by consistently opposing their agenda, having a long history of fighting for what's right, and taking them to task on a regular basis. Only Howard Dean has done this.

[Tweed]

5. The South

Yeah, you might want to add that to your list.

[Scott Lee]

13. Actually, Dean is leading Clark in the South 3:1

Just a reminder.

Uh oh...looks like Governor Dean's Southern Strategy was a great idea after all. Sorry, Dean detractors. Once again, you lose.

[Brian_Expat]

22. Hey, don't confuse with the facts. It's inconvenient. ;) n/t

[Scott Lee]

24. It just drives them nuts.

Dean, Dean, Dean, Dean, Dean.

[Brian_Expat]

27. Bush cannot win! He's weakening in the Massachusetts GOP primaries. ;) nt

[Scott Lee]

30. you forgot - "He's peaked! He's peaked!"

*giggle*

[Bombtrack]

26. Actually he's leading him in a primary, mostly in states where there aren'

t any campaigns and he's gotten more coverage than anyone

You know, Bush got killed in the New Hampshire primary and ended up winning it in a general

Clinton won the South Carolina primary and lost in the general

Mondale won almost all the primaries and lost 49 states.

You know your primary success + general election success talking point is as devoid of sense as all of them are

[burning bush]

38. Clinton Lost In The GE?

I don't that you said what you think that you said.

[Turkw]

35. No one has voted yet, buy you still claim victory,

and slam Clark every chance you get. You have the power to be rational and objective if you choose to. In a field of 9, unless you are getting 51%+ of the vote, you still don't have a majority.We won't know untill people actually vote, is it that hard to wait, or are you against people being allowed to vote?

[burning bush]

39. OH Pleaaazzz

I don't know about you personally, but the number of folks with a Clark crush and a Dean diss around here are endless. So many times I've seen Clark supporters claim that only Clark can win, that they look forward to a Clark presidency, blah blah blah... but let a Dean supporter say something similar and everyone gets their BVDs in nasty little not.

I make a vow, right now. If Dean wins the nomination, I wont gloat. If Dean wins the Presidency, I won't gloat.

If Dean spanks Bush like his bastard stepchild, tars and feathers him, and sends home to his mommy with an arrest warrant pinned to his ass, I WONT GLOAT.

But I don't believe for one second that Dean supporters would get the same treatment if Clark takes it home.

I hope I'm wrong on that, and would love to have you prove it.

But, Dean's gonna win-BIGTIME-so I guess we'll never find out how gracious Clark supporters can be win they win ;)

[Crunchy Frog]

45. As a Clark supporter, If Dean wins the election

and kicks Bush's ass back to Crawford, I will certainly gloat. I would hope that all of us will, as we will by default all be Dean supporters at that point. Kicking Bush out of the WH is the common goal after all, whoever manages to do it.

[edzontar]

50. I actually like Gen. Clark, but have been tempted to attack

Because his supporters on this board seem to do nothing BUT attack my candidate--the frontrunner, Dr. Dean....

I realize that there are many sane and responsible Clark supporters here...but it was professed Clark supporters who launched the "Stop Dean Movement" against this board and left a path of division and destruction in their wake--and I will NEVER FORGIVE that.

That said, I have every intention of supporting Clark if he is our nominee and have still, so far, restrained myself from anyhtihng but the most minimal criticism of the man.

[BootinUp]

41. Ref blows the whistle

You keep tryin though!

South Carolina
(Primary Date: February 3, 2004)
Poll--------Dean-----Gephardt-Kerry---Clark
RCP Average
------------16.0%--- 8.0%-----3.0%----13.7%


http://www.realclearpolitics.com/Presidential_04/polls_State_Polls_04.html

[Bombtrack]

6. No, the DCCC and the people that ran failed to win back the house

and contrary to Dean's negative central campaign message, his opponents don't and haven't won or lost elections by acting like republicans.

Dean's elections aren't even comparable to Edwards or Kerry. All three of them won tough elections, but Edwards and Kerry won them in states that weren't the second smallest in the country.

And they didn't comprimise there values to do so.

I also don't think that making the tax system in Vermont more regressive by raising the sales tax and cutting the top rate of the state tax was too great a thing. I also don't think that turning your state into a tax haven for multinational companies is peachy either. I also don't think neglecting the threat of terrorism in your state so that the nuclear reactors get the worst security rating in the country are a good thing either.

These things aren't good state policies, and they aren't good politics when you're running in a (potential) general election, particularly when your statements related to these subjects make one look hypocritical.

Of course none of that matters when your obsessed with being anti-war or obsessed about civil unions, even if he exaggerated his support for both causes to their respective activist groups to milk it.

[Brian_Expat]

23. The DNC run by McAuliffe, and the DLC represented by Kerry, Lieb & Gep n/t

[Bombtrack]

28. both bodies are also "represented" just as much by Dean

of course it's clear that if he panders enough and throws enough buzzeords and red meat to enough of you, you tell yourself and make yourselves believe anything you want about him. Dean is DLC governor and a hypocrite

[Scott Lee]

31. Wrong as usual.

Dean is actually at loggerheads with Terry McAwfull, and says he would replace the useless sonofabitch given half the chance.

Good for Dean.

[jmaier]

12. Gov Dean

has only rhetorically done it during this primary campaign -- there is absolutely NO empirical evidence that it will be a winning general election strategy.

Now, I'm not saying that it won't be so don't flame me. I'm just simply saying that you cannot assert his current lead in most of the Dem primary polls as evidence of any outcome viz a viz Bush.

[BobbyJay]

7. Um, he's alienating working class families and those who need tax relief.

Which is why Clark has made huge grounds as of late.

[Brian_Expat]

17. "Tax relief"

"Tax relief" is a Republican term.

[BobbyJay]

18. Um, Gore championed "middle class tax relief" in 2000

Just like General Clark is doing now.

[Brian_Expat]

25. And Gore lost, just like Clark is doing now. :-) n/t

[brainshrub]

37. No...Gore won. (nt)

[WhoCountsTheVotes]

40. Gore won

[Cheswick2.0]

49. that was then, this is now and history doesn't repeat itself

"Middle Class Tax Relief" is kind of a broad idea isn't it? Do you know what Gore's middle class tax relief consisted of? In what ways are the budget and enconomy now, comparible to the budget and economy then.
Gore understands the differences and is supporting Dean.

[Crunchy Frog]

34. Progressive taxation

Is a traditional foundation of the liberal Democratic agenda. "Tax relief" for the wealthy and the corporations is a Republican term.
Clark is advocating progressive taxation by proposing to lower taxes on the poor and middle class, by increasing taxes on the corporations and the very wealthy.

But please don't let facts get in the way of your arguement.

[hellhathnofury]

42. What working class tax cut?

That nice $600 got wiped away by state tax and fee increases. We needed to do a bailout.

www.bushtax.com

[Dookus]

8. And people....

who think gun control is a GOOD idea
and people who think open, transparent government is a GOOD idea
and people who don't think raising taxes on the middle class is a good electoral strategy

among others....

[Padraig18]

9. Well said!

:thumbsup:

[DuctapeFatwa]

10. As long as he's not alienating Diebold

They are who counts ;)

[brainshrub]

11. Amen! (nt)

[Feanorcurufinwe]

14. "principled stand for civil constitutional liberties "

That statement is so far from reality it is ridiculous.

For Dean to block a government agency from receiving federal money was unusual in itself. But Dean’s openly expressed bias against criminal defendants provided a partial explanation.

Dean has made no secret of his belief that the justice system gives all the breaks to defendants. Consequently, during the 1990s, state’s attorneys, police, and corrections all received budget increases vastly exceeding increases enjoyed by the defender general’s office. That meant the state’s attorneys were able to round up ever increasing numbers of criminal defendants, but the public defenders were not given comparable resources to respond.

The problem with giving a disproportionate share of state resources to prosecution and enforcement is that it throws the justice system out of kilter. A just result occurs in court only when the prosecution and defense both are ably represented.
http://rutlandherald.com/Archive/Articles/Article/31792


Reporter Peter Freyne, now one of Dean's great supporters, asked his readers at the time to "Remember the guy who once said 95 percent of people charged with crimes are guilty anyway so why should the state spend money on providing them with lawyers?"
http://www.counterpunch.org/jacobs08292003.html

It is Dean's lack of committment to due process that soured me on him in the first place. Now he seems to think it more important that Saddam or Osama receive a 'fair trial' than the defendents in his own state.

[Scott Lee]

29. It's easy to make shit up and then print it, eh Peter?

Peter Freyne never bothers to cite a source for his quote he attributed to Dean - "95 percent of people charged with crimes are guilty anyway so why should the state spend money on providing them with lawyers".

Gee golly. I wonder why?

Peter Freyne....paging Peter Freyne.....

[Feanorcurufinwe]

32. I emailed Freyne asking about that quote. The source is Dean.

It is from an early 90's Dean news conference.

[Cheswick2.0]

47. prove it

if the source is Dean, prove it

[silverweb]

16. Hear, hear!

I look forward to the inauguration of President Howard B. Dean, who will restore the USA to the dignity, respect, and responsibility she was once known for around the world.

Well said, Brian!

:bounce:

[slinkerwink]

19. bravo!

[JPJones]

20. Which constitutes a majority n/t

[Brian_Expat]

21. I'm not normally one to reply to myself, but. . .

. . . all these attacks are a perfect illustration of what I'm talking about.

Examples?

A Democrat who is against "Tax relief" (a Republican propaganda term first propogated by Ronald Reagan) yet at the same time is a super-conservative who coddles big business. :crazy:

Flimsy attacks from out of context quotes.

What's the real objection to Howard Dean? He's changing the party and changing America, and that has the status quo calling for "homeland security," the PATRIOT Act, "tax relief," war in Iraq and big handouts to big business very, VERY frightened. They won't give up easily, but now that people understand how they attack, a watchful eye can be kept open for further distortion.

[Name removed]

33. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Turkw]

36. We don't know who is alienating whom until the votes are counted, and

in the general election we will need all the voters we can get, even us politically impure Democrats, to win against Bush. There are No second class citizens in the Democratic Party.

[maddezmom]

44. kick

:)

[Zomby Woof]

43. Dean IS the status quo

So that shoots your argument dead in the water.

He is a walking disaster, which is quite a feat when you consider he always has one of his feet in his mouth.

[w4rma]

46. In your unsupported opinion (n/t)