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Joanne98 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Sep-06-08 05:22 PM
Original message
Catholics Outraged by Palin Insults

Palin Continues to Smear Catholic Action

Catholics across the country continue to be outraged by Republican politician Sarah Palin who repeated her smear against Catholic Action by mocking Barack Obama’s service as director of a community group sponsored by the Catholic Campaign for Human Development (an arm of the U.S. Conference of Catholic Bishops) and led by eight Catholic parishes on the South Side of Chicago.


First, the Dallas Morning News gives us the facts on the background:


Starting at age 23, Obama ran a faith-based charity called the Developing Communities Project.

It was made up of eight Catholic parishes when he got there and had one staff member. He was its director, meaning he was in charge. He made decisions about it, including staffing, budgets, etc. And when he left in 1988 to go to law school, he had grown its budget from $70,000 to $400,000, its staff from 1 to 13 people. More important, he created a job training program for this community and a college prep tutoring program. As mayor built a hockey rink/rec center using eminent domain (because apparently there just isn't enough land in Alaska).

Now for the attacks on this Catholic sponsored social action initiative. At the Republican Party National Convention, Palin and ex-New York City mayor Rudy Giuliani mocked the work Barack Obama did for this group of churches that were concerned about their parishioners, many of whom had been laid off when the steel mills closed on the south side of Chicago. As for Barack Obama’s service as a community organizer, Giuliani even sneered “I don't even know what that is.” Palin, who was baptized but not raised Catholic and sought “re-baptism” in a Protestant Church can be forgiven for knowing little of the Catholic Church’s admirable witness for the poor and socially marginalized. But even a lapsed Catholic like Giuliani should know of the Catholic Church’s concern for the poor and oppressed.

Joe Klein’s take on this: This is what Palin and Giuliani were mocking. They were making fun of a young man's decision "to serve a cause greater than himself," in the words of John McCain. They were, therefore, mocking one of their candidate's favorite messages. Obama served the poor for three years, then went to law school. To describe this service--the first thing he did out of college, the sort of service every college-educated American should perform, in some form or other--as anything other than noble is cheap and tawdry and cynical in the extreme.


America magazine, the national Jesuit weekly, shared in the shock at this repeated attack on Catholic Action.


A Midwestern Catholic leader wrote: In an stunning insult to 76.9 million Americans, another politician continues the republican bias towards Catholics. Sarah Palin's acceptance speech scoffed at work that her opponent had done in the 1980s for the Catholic Campaign for Human Development. She belittled Democratic presidential nominee Barack Obama's experience as a community organizer in Catholic parishes on the South Side of Chicago, work he undertook instead of pursuing a lucrative career on Wall Street. The US Conference of Catholic Bishops has operated the Catholic Campaign for Human Development, its domestic anti-poverty and social justice program, since 1969. In 1986, the Bishops issued Economic Justice for All: Pastoral Letter on Catholic Social Teaching and the US Economy, which said, "Human dignity can be realized and protected only in community." Senator Obama worked in several Catholic parishes, supported by the Catholic Campaign for Human Development, helping to address severe joblessness and housing needs in economically disadvantaged neighborhoods of Chicago.

http://catholicsforobama.blogspot.com/2008/09/catholics-outraged-by-palin-insults.html
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BeyondGeography Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Sep-06-08 05:23 PM
Response to Original message
1. Giving us help exactly where we need it
Epic McFail.
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1corona4u Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Sep-06-08 05:46 PM
Response to Reply #1
9. Joe's a catholic
;-) They'll like that...
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Genevieve Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Sep-06-08 06:23 PM
Response to Reply #9
31. Joe is Jewish.
nt
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Kat45 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Sep-06-08 06:29 PM
Response to Reply #31
33. No, he is Catholic.
Irish-Catholic.
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writes3000 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Sep-06-08 06:29 PM
Response to Reply #33
35. But Joe Klein may be Jewish.
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Genevieve Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Sep-06-08 06:40 PM
Response to Reply #33
38. yes, Biden is. (a Catholic).
I made a mistake - was thinking Joe Klein.
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writes3000 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Sep-06-08 06:29 PM
Response to Reply #31
34. I think they meant Joe Biden. nt
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Genevieve Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Sep-06-08 06:38 PM
Response to Reply #34
37. .oops...sorry,
did I miss that!
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1corona4u Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Sep-06-08 08:33 PM
Response to Reply #31
42. No, Joe Biden is Irish and Catholic.
Edited on Sat Sep-06-08 08:35 PM by 1corona4u
LOL, just read your post...you should have known i was talking about Biden, since I always have him on the brain. ;-)
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Genevieve Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Sep-06-08 10:19 PM
Response to Reply #42
45. Yes, I feel a bit like this now:
Edited on Sat Sep-06-08 10:20 PM by Genevieve
:dunce:
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PaDUer Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-08-08 11:00 PM
Response to Reply #42
208. The neighborhood where
Biden grew up is mostly Irish Catholics..Bob Casey lives there also..Hopefully the gang, Jamie Brazil, that turned to McCain's team won't be pulling that many to McShame..however, the mayor lives there also, right on the corner, and his sister and gang were at McShame's convention..Being that they're attacking Irish Catholics, this will NOT set well in this area, not at all...as they say, payback's a bitch..but I have serious reservations about the Clinton's coming to Scranton next month and meeting w/ their pal, Jamie Brazil..this entire turnaround from staunch Dem's going to McShame has me stumped..
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moriah Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Sep-06-08 11:12 PM
Response to Reply #31
51. That's the wrong Joe, youre thinking of Droopy Dog/Republican Wannabe.
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MiniMe Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Sep-06-08 11:45 PM
Response to Reply #31
57. Wrong Joe?
Biden is catholic
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DeepBlueC Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-07-08 12:33 AM
Response to Reply #31
59. you're talking Lieberman
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cliffordu Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-07-08 11:34 AM
Response to Reply #59
149. I didn't know Lieberman was Catholic....
:rofl:
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DeepBlueC Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-07-08 01:21 PM
Response to Reply #149
164. my reply was to Genevieve
Joe is Jewish
:eyes:
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cliffordu Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-07-08 10:57 PM
Response to Reply #164
203. I WAS KIDDING!!!!!
I know that Joementum is too far up his own ass to worship anyone but himself....
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LostinVA Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-07-08 07:30 AM
Response to Reply #31
85. Biden is a life-long, devout Catholic
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George II Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-07-08 08:59 AM
Response to Reply #31
104. Joe Six-pack is a Baptist
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polmaven Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-07-08 12:49 PM
Response to Reply #104
161. I think I've lost track of the Joes!
Joe Biden - Catholic
Joes Lieberman and Kline - Jewish
Who is Joe Six Pack.......? I'm SOOOOOO confused!!!!

:shrug:
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George II Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-07-08 02:43 PM
Response to Reply #161
176. Joe Six Pack is the typical middle American redneck more interested in beer than reality.
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NBachers Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-07-08 02:51 PM
Response to Reply #176
177. Killer Joe
So what's Killer Joe Scarborough's belief system?
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Two Americas Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-07-08 03:07 PM
Response to Reply #176
181. or...
...a prejudicial and counterproductive stereotype that plays into the Republican's hands and alienates millions of people from the political left in exchange for nothing of any real value?
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vssmith Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-07-08 11:46 AM
Response to Reply #31
153. Sure Joe is--Lieberman and Klein that is
Edited on Sun Sep-07-08 11:52 AM by vssmith
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progdonkey Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-07-08 11:55 AM
Response to Reply #31
154. Joe is also a Real American Hero....


:P

This is why Barack's parents named him Barack: they wanted people to know exactly whom others were talking about. ;-)
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roguevalley Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Sep-06-08 07:18 PM
Response to Reply #1
40. Ireland is a Catholic country, small and recently poor but they give
the most to charity of any country in the world. Go, Catholics!

This is how ignorant they are, dissing people with a track record like this.
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kestrel91316 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-07-08 01:00 AM
Response to Reply #40
62. It is not done out of ignorance, IMHO. It is done by someone who
holds Catholics in contempt and isn't afraid to let it be known.

She'll say something similar in reference to Jews soon. Just watch.
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tomg Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-07-08 08:02 AM
Response to Reply #62
92. In fact, Palin was baptized Catholic
but her family switched to Assembly of God when she was very young and she became a member of Wassila Bible in 2002. I think it is actually done out of ignorance - okay, sheer stupidity. Guiliani started that little song and dance, and the guy is Catholic ( if, shall we say, not in the best official standing - no comment on the state of his soul, which at last report was entirely missing).

Do Hagee and the rest of that extremist ilk have little to no use for the Roman Catholic religion, or the Whore of Babylon, as the R.C. church is fondly referred to - yup. Is anti-Catholicism essential to the kind of rabid nativist movements that have plagued this country since about 1854 ( American Know-Nothing Party, Ku Klux Klan) that attacked Catholics, Jews and immigrants - yup. And there are strong ties to many separatists/anti-immigrant, xenophobic movements and anti-Catholic sentiment.

But this was just a complete fuck-up. Palin may or may harbor such feelings ( frankly, I doubt it, save in the same sense that she has doubts about anyone who has not been "born-again in the blood of the lamb" - unsaved like Gandhi, Mother Theresa, the Archbishop of Canterbury, Martin Buber, the Pope, The Dalai Lama, the Buddah, Mohammed, Lao Tzu, and, oooh about 99.873475% of the entire world's population since Lucy - or, in their view since, 4004-OCT-23 BCE, at 9 AM - I am assuming this is Wassila Bible Time, a time zone unto itself). But they had no idea that it was a specifically Catholic, faith-based group that Obama worked for.

In a way, it simply shows how utterly incompetent these nitwits are. That is just basic research. Had Guiliani and Palin gone for less cheap-shot snark, they could have complimented the community work but still made their ( in my view completely shitheaded and nasty and dumber than dirt) point.

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McCamy Taylor Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-07-08 01:46 PM
Response to Reply #92
167. She is too ignorant to be president. Even more so than Dumbya.
He would have crossed that out of a script, because as a southerner, he would have known that no political leader can get elected sounding like a pompous asshole.
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tomg Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-07-08 02:41 PM
Response to Reply #167
175. Isn't that pathetic. Dumber than Dumbya.
In a way, it melds the worst of the old Republican contempt and disdain for the average person and the worst of the new isolationist, xenophobic misthanthropy. I can see Guiliani using it first, and I think Palin just picked it up next - frankly, it sounded like all the speeches were pretty much written by the same pack of morons.
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glinda Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-07-08 05:03 PM
Response to Reply #92
192. Ya Sure????
I read somewhere where she was baptized in like a Pentecostal tongue type Church and then only about 6 years ago changed to a quieter but still radical Church that many politicians went to to hide and not be bothered.
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cliffordu Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-07-08 11:35 AM
Response to Reply #62
151. I can hardly wait for that one.
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glinda Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-07-08 05:00 PM
Response to Reply #40
191. Catholics
Go Catholics is right! I was raised conservative Catholic and went to private schools but cannot relate at all to the Repubs. None of their values match the teachings that I was raised with. I really wish the Catholics would get on board major.
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ginnyinWI Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-07-08 04:17 PM
Response to Reply #1
187. Well, with that type of Christian anyway.
The conservative rightie Christians will think she's great for disparaging community programs because they feel that they are not Christian enough. They call all the other churches "lukewarm" or "backslidden". Only they are the True Church. Now that I'm out from under their spell, I can see that it's just a marketing program designed to keep the flock together.

All the other Christian denominations, the ones with outreach programs will and should be disgusted.
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Stop Cornyn Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Sep-06-08 05:26 PM
Response to Original message
2. k&r
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Kdillard Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Sep-06-08 05:28 PM
Response to Original message
3. Good we need the Catholic vote. So please keep insulting people
Palin and McCain.
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Iris Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-07-08 07:33 AM
Response to Reply #3
86. Yep. It's time for Catholics to wake up.
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Native Donating Member (885 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-07-08 09:03 AM
Response to Reply #86
107. AMEN!
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Darth_Kitten Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-07-08 10:29 AM
Response to Reply #3
131. Skeletor and Church Lady.....what a ticket.
:(
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KittyWampus Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Sep-06-08 05:30 PM
Response to Original message
4. This could be boiled down to a great ad on tv.
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madamesilverspurs Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-07-08 10:43 AM
Response to Reply #4
135. If nothing else
it would really annoy those in the McCain camp who keep playing the "Obama is a Muslim" tune. And I'm old enough to remember when they tried to make everyone afraid of Kennedy's Catholicism. What faith is next on their fear list?
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starroute Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Sep-06-08 05:34 PM
Response to Original message
5. Put this together with the Hagee stuff ...
... and McCain has a serious Catholic deficit.

I never knew that Obama had a Catholic connection -- so it's probably a really good thing that this is coming out now.

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HockeyMom Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-07-08 12:23 PM
Response to Reply #5
157. It surprises me too
I work across the street from a catholic church. They have a nice picnic table on a lake and I eat my lunch there. It really suprises me all the Obama for President stickers I see in that church parking lot.
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Chloroplast Donating Member (723 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Sep-06-08 05:41 PM
Response to Original message
6. Who exactly is McCain's base?
I've spoken with many evangelicals and they're not feeling Palin. For the most part, they were overjoyed about her before Wednesday but after that, they began questioning her 'moral fiber'.
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regnaD kciN Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Sep-06-08 05:44 PM
Response to Reply #6
7. Answer: Morans
Sorry to be so potentially-elitist, but it is]/i] true.

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harun Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-07-08 05:54 PM
Response to Reply #7
199. And the top 1% in terms of wealth/income
There is a road near work I drive quite often. The houses on it are rather ridiculously nice. Nothing wrong with a nice house but I always wondered what the heck these people did to afford to have such palatial homes and huge (HUGE) chunks of land with every inch perfectly manicured. Well I haven't seen one bit of McCain signs here near Philadelphia. That is until I went down previously mentioned street the other night. Every house had McCain sign(s) out front.

So I would say it is the top one percenters and the morans they fool every year into voting against their own economic interests.
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Eric J in MN Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Sep-06-08 05:46 PM
Response to Reply #6
10. Why are they questioning her moral fiber? NT
NT
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Chloroplast Donating Member (723 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Sep-06-08 06:05 PM
Response to Reply #10
17. A lot of people can't get past her pregnant daughter and campaigning with a newborn.
Edited on Sat Sep-06-08 06:08 PM by Chloroplast
The speech really did her in and was seen as against Christian values.
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Eric J in MN Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Sep-06-08 07:11 PM
Response to Reply #17
39. What aspect of the speech might be against Christian values? NT
NT
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Chloroplast Donating Member (723 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Sep-06-08 09:29 PM
Response to Reply #39
44. The 'Love thy neighbor as you love thyself' part as well as lacking humility.
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Eric J in MN Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Sep-06-08 10:40 PM
Response to Reply #44
48. Yes, I didn't think it was humble when she said...
Edited on Sat Sep-06-08 10:41 PM by Eric J in MN
"I guess a small-town mayor is sort of like a community organizer, except that you have actual responsibilities."

It was egotistical and nasty for her to declare that her previous job had actual responsibilities while a job Obama did 20 years ago didn't.
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CBHagman Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-07-08 10:24 AM
Response to Reply #44
128. Add to that Palin's brutal approach to health care.
Some of you might take issue with the term "brutal," but bear with me. If you examine the publicly stated positions of Bush, McCain, and Palin on health care access, there is a great deal of emphasis on the market as the means to provide affordable health care.

Palin's view and record:

From The Washington Post:

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2008/09/04/AR2008090403253.html

Palin was part practical politician, accepting more than $34,000 from medical groups that were trying to spur competition, according to an analysis by the nonpartisan Campaign Money Watch. She also worked closely with Paul Fuhs, an Anchorage lobbyist who was helping imaging firms battle hospitals over control of a lucrative trade. And while supporters and opponents credited her with reaching out to all sides, they also said she was a fierce idealist, taking a philosophical position and not giving ground.

(SNIP)

Palin and others think that more competition will reduce costs and lead to better care. As she put it in an opinion article in the Anchorage Daily News: "Under our present Certificates of Need process, costs and needs don't drive healthcare choices -- bureaucracy does. Our system is broken and expensive."

Hospitals and other supporters of certification counter that increased competition leads to higher operating costs in areas that are not directly related to health care, such as advertising, that are passed on to consumers.

"It would seem like increasing competition would reduce costs, but that's not what's happening," said John A. Hurson, a former president of the National Conference of State Legislatures and a health policy expert. "The demand just meets the supply. There's more advertising. It just generates more costs."


Check out On the Issues website, especially the quotations on competition and personsal responsibility. The quotations on personal choices in particular trouble me, as it implies a rather hard-hearted "You've made your bed, now lie in it" approach.

http://www.ontheissues.org/2008/Sarah_Palin_Health_Care.htm

But Catholic social teaching states that health care is a right, not a privilege.

See the Office for Social Justice in St. Paul and Minneapolis:

http://www.osjspm.org/major_themes.aspx

Every person has a fundamental right to life and a right to those things required for human decency – starting with food, shelter and clothing, employment, health care, and education. Corresponding to these rights are duties and responsibilities -- to one another, to our families, and to the larger society.

Yeah, yeah, I know McCain talks about the sanctity of life from conception onward, but isn't it curious that he hasn't called for, at the very least, universal immediate access to prenatal and well-baby care, no questions asked?


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yardwork Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-07-08 09:08 AM
Response to Reply #39
109. The entire Republican platform is against Christian values.
Jesus said to love our enemies as ourselves - not launch preemptive wars against them. A rich man's chances of getting into heaven are the same as a camel's chance of getting through the eye of a needle, according to Jesus. The meek shall inherit the earth.

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greguganus Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-07-08 11:02 PM
Response to Reply #109
204. You must not read much of DU. Both sides are against Christian values. n/t
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Bluenorthwest Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Sep-06-08 06:01 PM
Response to Reply #6
16. The few in my extended family
Hate her. The women especially. My cousin said "we go to church, we know the type. wouldn't trust her to babysit."
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DevonRex Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Sep-06-08 05:45 PM
Response to Original message
8. Palin, Rudy and McCain are just the SCUM of the earth. There
should have been ONE thing that ALL the candidates agreed on and that is about the wonderful work different community organizations do to help folks who have lost their jobs, whether those organizations are secular or religious.

I guess republicans don't want anyone helping anyone - not government, not churches, and not secular organizations of any kind, either.

The GOP is just a filthy, greedy, disgusting group of people.
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Two Americas Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-07-08 05:31 AM
Response to Reply #8
76. there is a bizarre disconnection there, too
The Republicans have been touting charity - a thousand points of light and all of that - as a replacement for government programs, as well as promoting religious organizations as the proper venue for distributing said charity - faith based initiatives and all of that.

Then Palin mocks Catholic Services?

And another thing while I am at it - if government is evil and private charity is the solution to social problems, then why have the government give money to the charities? Not to mention that giving tax payer money to churches is very inappropriate.

This Religious Right is a extremist political movement, disguised as religion.
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DevonRex Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-07-08 10:06 AM
Response to Reply #76
120. You really hit the nail on the head there TA. I have fundie relatives
and they're much more about keeping every frickin penny they ever made in their pockets than about religion. Their form of "religion" is also much more about making themselves feel superior by attacking homosexuals and any other group of people than about becoming "Christ-like" in their own lives.

One thing I can tell you is that fundies don't believe most Catholics are born again. They also believe that churches who have strong missions to help the poor and sick are telling their congregations that they can "work" their way to heaven. They constantly quote Jesus saying that if a man is hungry don't give him a fish. Instead give him a fishing pole and teach him to fish. Well, I don't see any of them handing out fishing poles, much less anything equivalent to it in this modern age.

Somehow they miss the "give" part in the second part of the quote. And they miss the fact that "teaching" is much, much more difficult than just handing somebody some food. So they don't believe in giving and they certainly don't believe in teaching.

The only thing they believe is that they're going to heaven because they "accepted Christ as their savior" and after that it doesn't matter what they do or don't do, because they've covered their own asses.
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Bette Noir Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-07-08 10:11 AM
Response to Reply #120
122. That "teach a man to fish" line isn't from the Bible,
it's late 20th Century.

As I recall, Jesus gave a lot of people fish.

I doubt that Jesus is going to want to claim these people, in the end.
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DevonRex Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-07-08 10:37 AM
Response to Reply #122
133. That's hilarious, since they quote it to me constantly, thinking that
it means Jesus doesn't want us to "give" people anything.

Heh heh. Now I'm gonna have to call them on their triple bullshit. :)
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grasswire Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-07-08 11:38 AM
Response to Reply #133
152. ask them to find that verse in the Bible for you
that oughta do it.
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George II Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-07-08 09:09 AM
Response to Reply #8
110. Rudy and McCain are both adulterers. Palin? The jury's still out on that one.
Edited on Sun Sep-07-08 09:09 AM by George II
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FKA MNChimpH8R Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Sep-06-08 05:47 PM
Response to Original message
11. Keep diggin' Repukes,
Edited on Sat Sep-06-08 05:48 PM by FKA MNChimpH8R
Keep diggin'.
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dansolo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Sep-06-08 05:49 PM
Response to Original message
12. This really needs to be in an ad
We can get a double bonus from it--it highlights Obama's charity work (I don't believe people really understand what his community organizing entailed) and also highlights the anti-Catholic attitudes of the Republican Party.
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Honeycombe8 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Sep-06-08 06:11 PM
Response to Reply #12
20. It sure does! Where are the ads? Where are the ads? She's getting away w/murder. nt
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GoesTo11 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Sep-06-08 10:21 PM
Response to Reply #20
46. This is an ad to play in Ohio in October.
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chat_noir Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Sep-06-08 06:24 PM
Response to Reply #12
32. ad with Palin and Hagee dissing Catholics
That ought to do it.
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nc4bo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Sep-06-08 05:52 PM
Response to Original message
13. How many people make up his base again? Because the way the repukes are going
they will be the ONLY ones voting for them in November.

Pissing off everybody will not a President make Mr. Mccain and Mz. Palin.
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Left Is Write Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Sep-06-08 05:52 PM
Response to Original message
14. kick
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alsame Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Sep-06-08 05:54 PM
Response to Original message
15. I hope they keep burning all these bridges - the more people
they offend, the better for us. Assholes.
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me b zola Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Sep-06-08 06:08 PM
Response to Original message
18. K&R
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Hope And Change Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Sep-06-08 06:09 PM
Response to Original message
19. K & R!
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Honeycombe8 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Sep-06-08 06:12 PM
Response to Original message
21. Ooooh. Boy, did they screw up. I bet they didn't even know it was faith-based.
I mean, when a campaign doesn't even vet its own VP, how can you expect them to know the details of the opponent's background?

hahahahhaha.
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goodgd_yall Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Sep-06-08 06:18 PM
Response to Reply #21
26. They may or may not have known
Assembly of God members aren't particularly fond of Catholics, so I don't think Palin would care if she ended up offending Catholics. But if she doesn't care, it shows how stupid she is because it's not good to alienate voting Catholics.
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Honeycombe8 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Sep-06-08 06:38 PM
Response to Reply #26
36. No, it's not good to anger the Catholics. (and just why would anyone want to? They
represent millions of Americans...the ones she says she wants to go to Washington to work for)
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justiceischeap Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Sep-06-08 06:12 PM
Response to Original message
22. So Palin has managed to alienate Catholics and Jews... hmmm, wonder how that bodes for us? (eom)
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aint_no_life_nowhere Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Sep-06-08 06:13 PM
Response to Original message
23. This story would probably kill McCain with the Hispanic vote if it got more notice
This could help Obama in Florida and in the southwest.
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nini Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Sep-06-08 06:14 PM
Response to Original message
24. My Catholic priest nephew is pissed off beyond belief over these attacks
REALLY pissed. He used the 'Jesus was a community organizer' in his rant.


This is a really dumb strategy - therefore I hope she keeps it up. :-)
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ekwhite Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-07-08 08:49 AM
Response to Reply #24
100. Jesus was a community organizer...
Pontius Pilate was a governor.
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BearSquirrel2 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-07-08 09:29 AM
Response to Reply #24
115. But you know ...

But you know if Jesus came back and ran for office as a Democrat, they'd call him the devil.

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NOLALady Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-07-08 10:39 AM
Response to Reply #115
134. They would assassinate him.
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The Animator Donating Member (999 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-07-08 12:50 PM
Response to Reply #134
162. Actually FOX would crucify him first.
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NBachers Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-07-08 03:01 PM
Response to Reply #134
179. They would assassinate him "again."
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nini Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-07-08 12:48 PM
Response to Reply #115
160. Who do mean by "They"?
the repukes or Catholics?

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goodgd_yall Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Sep-06-08 06:15 PM
Response to Original message
25. I didn't know the Catholic angle
I'd like to see this brought up more. The whole background of Obama's work would work to inform people what Obama's particular responsibilities were and would show how the Republican attacks are actually mocking a Catholic institution.
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Rectangle Donating Member (437 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Sep-06-08 06:20 PM
Response to Original message
27. Y'know a lot of those Born Again Assemblies of God ect..
generally consider the Catholic church to be
in league with Satan, Whore of Babylon
(remember Hagee anyone/).

If true, why don't we back her into a corner,
either renounce Catholics, or renounce your church!!
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rbrnmw Donating Member (789 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Sep-06-08 11:37 PM
Response to Reply #27
55. I was told I was going to Hell
if I did not denounce my Catholic Beliefs by a Church of God member who came to my door to witness to me. and told my eight year old son needed to be saved that if he died that day he would go to Hell. So I told him to go to Hell and showed him the door. I was very angry my son was sitting right there.
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BearSquirrel2 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-07-08 09:31 AM
Response to Reply #55
117. You ever wonder ...

You ever wonder how they would react if you knocked on the door of their church during services and tried to convert them to Catholicism? Sounds like a good Sasha Baron Cohen routine.

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Bette Noir Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-07-08 10:14 AM
Response to Reply #55
123. Anybody comes to my door to preach at me
gets chased off my property. With a stick.
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tomg Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-07-08 08:13 AM
Response to Reply #27
93. Sorry. Just can't agree. No religious test.
No testing of people's religion.

Anti-Catholicism is not part of the Assembly of God ( and she is Wassila Bible which, I think, is not officially A of G) or in their 14 points. In fact until 1967, they were a peace church and a strong anti-war stance was central to their beliefs ( in the same way that it is among Jehovah's Witnesses, Mennonites and other groups) Which, of course, is not to say they were progressive. They seem to have been pretty apolitical at first. To examine ways in which her beliefs inform or impact upon her stated public positions is an entirely different matter, in the same way that a Catholic official who has made his religious positions clear can be asked to speak about abortion. Anyone remember that delightful Dominionist James Watt and his impact on the environment as Secretary of the Interior (since Our Lord has given us dominon over the world, let's strip mine it).
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Genevieve Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Sep-06-08 06:21 PM
Response to Original message
28. Keep it up, Sarah.
I love watching implosions.
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Skidmore Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Sep-06-08 06:22 PM
Response to Original message
29. Catholic or not, there should be some severe backlash on that slur.
The last 8 years the Republicans have done their damnedest to push every social program back on the private sector and now they have the temerity to mock those who do the work. Every community has some form of community program manned by organizers. They are the backbone of our emergency response systems. In smaller communities, they serve as the fire department, the meals on wheels/elder network, the shelter for abused women and children, staff for soup kitchens and food pantries, you name it. It pisses me off to no end that these people who would deny assistance to those in dire straits would mock those who do provide such a, yes, Christian response.
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yardwork Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-07-08 09:03 AM
Response to Reply #29
106. Republicans cut social program funding then mock volunteers.
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chat_noir Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Sep-06-08 06:23 PM
Response to Original message
30. K&R
...and to get people to notice my signature. Well, put, Jed Report!
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livetohike Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Sep-06-08 07:20 PM
Response to Original message
41. Now we have Catholicgate
That woman is despicable. No wonder they won't let her out on her own. She could alienate the whole U.S. population.
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Justice Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Sep-06-08 08:49 PM
Response to Original message
43. I saw this the other day and sent it to everyone I know - particularly
Catholics. Every Catholic donates money to this cause - it is outrageous that they mocked this work. Plus at the end of his speech McCain said volunteer, do things in your community. Cindy McCain showed us how she flies around the world helping children. Another contradiction.
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Barack_America Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Sep-06-08 10:26 PM
Response to Original message
47. I didn't know many of these details...
...surrounding Obama's work as a community organizer.

Thanks for posting this. :hi:
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AZBlue Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Sep-06-08 10:45 PM
Response to Original message
49. It just shows their hubris and arrogance that they thought no one would be bothered by that remark.
They may have found it funny last week, but we'll see who's laughing November 4th.
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vaberella Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Sep-06-08 11:11 PM
Response to Original message
50. My advice to anyone who runs: Never ever fuck with Catholics.
They have a network that rivals Obama's. They are that bad ass and they are vengeful. Even if they were Repubs, and if we count them as a vote. Insult them enough and they'll destroy you. This coming from a Catholic critic although I am one, raised in it and have three sacraments left to complete. ^_^
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judasdisney Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Sep-06-08 11:28 PM
Response to Original message
52. I'm a Catholic. I don't know ANY liberal Catholics. Not one.
And the "moderate" Catholics I know are all corrupt milquetoast "whatever" Catholics who don't care if the U.S. is run by fascists or if their parochial schools are run by pedophile priests. If it doesn't impact them personally, they just don't give a fuck.
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krabigirl Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Sep-06-08 11:32 PM
Response to Reply #52
54. My brother is one. Catholic and extremely liberal. Voted for Kucinich in primaries.
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FKA MNChimpH8R Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Sep-06-08 11:40 PM
Response to Reply #52
56. A childhood friend of mine came from Irish Catholic stock and
the entire family worshiped the Kennedys and still does. Guess that makes them right wingers, eh?
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wickerwoman Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-07-08 01:54 AM
Response to Reply #52
63. Bullshit.
Come to my family reunion. There's a couple hundred of the most liberal people you'd ever meet. Both of my grandfathers were union organizers for the railroads and my grandmother gave a significant chunk of a very small pension to the democrats every year until she died (at 93).

I have more than thirty aunts and uncles from both sides of the family and only one of them votes republican. One of my aunts lived in a commune, another worked in the missions in south-east Asia, another was in the Peace Corps. My uncle teaches special needs kids in one of the worst slums in New York.

The firemens', policemens' and teachers' unions in New York and Boston are stuffed with Irish Catholics and those are some of the most consistantly liberal blue dog democrats you'll find.

Your comments are incredibly offensive and full of shit and you obviously need to get out more.
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Princess Turandot Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-07-08 02:20 AM
Response to Reply #63
64. Exactly..
The firemens', policemens' and teachers' unions in New York and Boston are stuffed with Irish Catholics and those are some of the most consistantly liberal blue dog democrats you'll find.

NYC does not wind up voting Democratic in national/ state elections solely because of investment bankers with a conscience! (And it ain't just the Irish Catholics. :) )

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Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-07-08 04:32 AM
Response to Reply #63
65. Deleted message
Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.
 
Two Americas Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-07-08 04:57 AM
Response to Reply #65
70. the area
It sounds like your experiences are in an area where most of the people, Catholic or not, are right wing. I am thinking maybe the Shrine of the Little Flower, or St. Mary's Orchard Lake, or maybe Grosse Point? Can't remember where Monaghan lives, but I am sure it is an upscale neighborhood.

There are a couple of people on Catholic radio - Raymond Arroyo comes to mind - who bring some hints of right wing politics into their show. Very annoying, I agree. But I also have heard the bombings of Nagasaki and Hiroshima condemned, discussions about poverty, opposition to the war in Iraq, and defense of the immigrants.

We should remember - you can't judge the group by the individual and you can't judge the individual by the group. For whatever Monaghan may be, he doesn't represent all Catholics.
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judasdisney Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-07-08 04:49 AM
Response to Reply #63
68. Furthermore, "Bullshit" Bezdomny
http://www.ewtn.com/

This is the "Sacred Heart Radio Network." Find me a shred of programming that doesn't contain rabid Right-Wing messaging.

There is no Progressive or Liberal counterpart.

I grew up in a toxic soup of Right-Wing Catholic hate.

Your unique and hostile and repulsive reply stands out for me. It echoes my upbringing. I'll remember it specifically the next time I meet (and steer clear of) a Catholic who identifies as "progressive."

If you thought my comments were "offensive," you certainly didn't follow Christ and "turn the other cheek" at all. That's cool. I don't find many Christians who do except in old books. For contemporary Catholics, Christianity is about "Christianism" -- tribal identity-seeking and not a philosophy lived.
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Two Americas Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-07-08 05:00 AM
Response to Reply #68
71. huh?
There aren't any political programs of any kind on that network, are there?

Raymond Arroyo, as I said, I have a problem with, yes. But is is relatively mild, compared to what we hear everywhere else. There is more right wing propagnda on NPR than there is even on his show.
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wickerwoman Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-07-08 06:24 AM
Response to Reply #68
81. Err... for the record, I'm not a Christian.
And never said I was. My granparents, aunts and uncles are all Catholics, I'm an atheist.

I also never said that there were no asshole Catholics or Christians. I know lots of them too. But the implication of your post "I don't know ANY liberal catholics" is that there aren't any... and that IS ignorant, offensive and untrue. You were not giving an simple explanation of your experience, you were tarring the entire religious community as apathetic and self-centered based on your experience.

Feel free to steer clear of atheists now too since apparently a negative experience with one member of a community is enough for you to write off everyone else who belongs to it.

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SheWhoMustBeObeyed Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-07-08 12:03 PM
Response to Reply #68
155. Every Catholic I know considers EWTN a front for Opus Dei. They ignore it.



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NBachers Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-07-08 03:21 PM
Response to Reply #63
182. Agree on the Bullshit call
Daniel and Philip Berrigan
Caesar Chavez
Four churchwomen murdered in El Salvador
Archbishop Romero
http://www.catholicworker.org/
Dorothy Day
Father Roy Bourgeois - founder of the School of the Americas Watch
Catholic Migrant Farmworker Network http://www.cmfn.org/action.html
George Mitchell
This doesn't even scratch the surface, but you get the idea . . .

Agree on the Bullshit call
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Two Americas Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-07-08 04:46 AM
Response to Reply #52
67. here
I know many, many very left wing Catholics. Higher percentage than in the general population, in my experience, especially on matters of economics and poverty.

Don't pin the deplorable behavior of the Bishops on 87 million people, please. You wouldn't want to be lumped in with Cheney just because you are an American, would you?

Maybe your experience is in an area where many of the people, Catholic or not, fit your description?
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judasdisney Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-07-08 05:03 AM
Response to Reply #67
72. You may be right
"...Maybe your experience is in an area where many of the people, Catholic or not, fit your description?"

Possibly so. Family and school are pervasive experiences for somebody growing up, and form a lasting impression of the world. The only Catholic voices that I hear in the media are Right-Wing, with the possible exception of U2. The Catholics on the Supreme Court are rabidly Right-Wing. "Progressive" Catholics such as Kerry, or Biden, don't impress me as actual Progressives. I don't see any Feingold among Progressives.

I was raised Catholic and unavoidably am stuck with much of the catechism that I was submerged in. I don't believe that ALL Catholics are Right-Wing, particularly not Latin American or African Catholics. But in the U.S., Progressives of all creeds and non-creeds have a tendency to live in the past, believing that U.S. Progressives comprise more than 25% of the population. I don't agree. Half of the 2008 support for a Democrat is rooted in discontent with the economy and indifference to everything else.

If I have a special disappointment with U.S. Catholics, it's because I was raised in it, and I see nothing but corruption and indifference. Believe me, the first chance I get to move to Ecuador or Bolivia or Paraguay or Venezuela, I'm packed and ready to leave.
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Two Americas Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-07-08 05:10 AM
Response to Reply #72
73. understood
Thanks for considering what I said. I appreciate that.

I grew up in Detroit. The suburbs are rabidly racist and right wing, as bad as anywhere in the country. My experiences are in the poor ethnic communities and charity work in the city. But I do see what you are saying, and agree.

Just a couple of weeks ago, it so happens, I got into a huge argument with a teacher from one of the suburban Detroit Catholic schools about racism and the way they were treating the few students of color they have. Very frustrating and discouraging. But that racism is really an American sickness, not so much a Catholic sickness.

I suppose you are aware of Father Coughlin from the 30's?
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judasdisney Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-07-08 05:31 AM
Response to Reply #73
75. Father Coughlin, yes, almost a close relative
My father was actually a seminarian at St. John's (between Plymouth & Northville) who dropped out to get married but retained the Right-Wingism. I was raised by a man who was essentially Father Coughlin with sharper strategic intelligence, like Rove, and a mother who was a Catholic Dr. Laura without the heart, or should I say, less heart than Dr. Laura's vacuum.

I went to Our Lady of Good Counsel in Plymouth, a suburb that was at the time a farming burg. I commuted to Catholic Central High School when it was on Breakfast Drive in Livonia, before it moved. I was phyiscally assaulted by many nuns and priests, although not sexually abused -- that was only via the immediate Catholic family.

You sound like a real, right-on Liberal Catholic, and I have the highest esteem for such people. Progressive Christians in general are a source of profound inspiration to me, from Dorothy Day to MLK to even Albino Luciani (John Paul the first, NOT the second). But as with the U.S. government, I'm not sure that the people can "overcome" -- not merely because they lack the will to bear witness, but because there is a Deep State, an Ergenekon Network, that has fatefully laced the clockwork and gamed the outcome.

I admire the maturity and tone with which you have defused this hostile thread sub-branch, which I can honestly say is more mature than my own poor approach. Kudos.
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Two Americas Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-07-08 05:40 AM
Response to Reply #75
77. oh no, so sorry
You my friend have earned the right to bash. Miserable experiences there, and I don't doubt them for a minute.

No, we may never overcome, as you say.

I remember when Plymouth was a little farming town - and Northville and so many others that have been gobbled up now by sprawl.
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olegramps Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-07-08 08:46 AM
Response to Reply #75
98. Couglin vs John XXIII
I have been very disappointed in the Catholic Hierarchy in that they did much to undermine the candidacy of Kerry. Some are now attacking Biden since he will not support outlawing abortion. Some of them are as extreme as the evangelicals in that they are determined to destroy anyone who dares to disagree with their dictates on this one issue. The Catholic Church has fallen into a one issue trap, abortion, that has blinded them to the multitude of social problems that confront our nation and the world. In the Kerry election, the majority of Catholics for the first time voted for a Republican. The Catholic Church, like much of our society, has turned its back on the working class and the poor in comparison to their once firm dedication to backing the Roosevelt New Deal policies that actually created the Middle Class. Catholic publications, such as the "Wanderer" have consistently attacked Obama on this issue to the total disregard of a host of other issues. I can only hope that the Palin's slander of Obama's work to assist poor working people will galvanize Catholics in their support for his presidency.
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cap Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-07-08 05:47 AM
Response to Reply #72
78. you are moving to heavily Catholic countries to escape Catholics?
Edited on Sun Sep-07-08 05:48 AM by cap
Why not move to NY or NJ and live with progressive Catholics?

I am planning to attend a Catholic retreat in Oct on the shore that's doing Tai Chi.
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judasdisney Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-07-08 07:03 PM
Response to Reply #78
200. no, moving to heavily democratic countries to escape impending fascism
although, reading Chalmers Johnson, I believe the majority of the planet is in trouble
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LostinVA Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-07-08 08:51 AM
Response to Reply #72
101. The African Catholic Church is especially RW
Edited on Sun Sep-07-08 08:55 AM by LostinVA
Just look at their views on gays and AIDS. They tell people that condoms cause AIDS, AIDS can be cured by having sex with a virgin, etc.

They should just separate from the Vatican as far as I'm concerned.

The Catholic Church in Latin America is also more conservative than in the US, but I haven't heard any stories about them preaching flat out dangerous things about AIDS.
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judasdisney Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-07-08 07:10 PM
Response to Reply #101
201. the Catholic Church in Latin America gave rise to Liberation Theology
Certainly the oligarchy of Latin America includes the Catholic Church -- witness the ongoing bishops' participation in covering-up the military coup of 1977's stolen children in Argentina.

But there is a stronger band of Catholic activism tending toward the maligned Liberation Theology in Latin America and Africa than there is in the U.S. "The Catholic Church is a tumor in Venezuela" cites Hugo Chavez, who cites Jesus's teachings. If you watch "The Revolution Will Not Be Televised" you'll see why he says it's a tumor, and why Chavez is not the demagogue (let alone villain) the AP & NYT will have you believe.

http://video.google.com/videosearch?q=the+revolution+will+not+be+televised&emb=0&aq=o#
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Hekate Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-07-08 04:51 AM
Response to Reply #52
69. Wow. Let me introduce you to my mom's many cousins, including the 80 y.o. activist nun...
Edited on Sun Sep-07-08 04:58 AM by Hekate
... who ended up on the Denver police's "watch list" for her activities.

I'm very sorry for your personally pained history, but maybe you need to get out more. Like completely out of the place where you were brought up.

Hekate


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tallahasseedem Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-07-08 07:14 AM
Response to Reply #52
82. I'm a Catholic and
both my Mother's and my Father's side of the family are all liberal Catholics. However, Barack Obama did turn my "moderate" Catholic husband away from the fear and smear towards his sensible policies.

I wouldn't paint such a broad stroke if I were you.
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sandnsea Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-07-08 07:34 AM
Response to Reply #52
87. Hello
Depends on the parish. It's the conservative Catholics who confuse me because I wasn't raised that way. Check out the Democrats in Congress. Most of the Catholics are Democrats and even the Republicans are usually moderate and pro-choice. Susan Collins. Christie Todd-Whitman. Ahnold. Rudy Giuliani. Other than abortion, the Church doesn't traditionally have anything in common with Republicans.
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nyc 4 Biden Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-07-08 07:42 AM
Response to Reply #52
89. No liberal Catholics?!?!
wow, 90% of the catholics I know are democrats. sounds like you just surround yourself with a bunch of jerk offs.
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rbrnmw Donating Member (789 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-07-08 09:30 AM
Response to Reply #89
116. Lots of Democrats are Catholic
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AngryOldDem Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-07-08 08:17 AM
Response to Reply #52
94. The turn off EWTN and join the real world.
Like any other faction, the extreme wing is often the smallest and most vocal.

I believe the same holds true for Catholics. Some of the most liberal Catholics I know are nuns and parish workers.
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LostinVA Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-07-08 08:47 AM
Response to Reply #52
99. That's strange -- I know lots of liberal Catholics
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DesertRat Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-07-08 08:58 AM
Response to Reply #52
103. I'm one and I voted for a Liberal Catholic
Dennis Kucinich. :hi:
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yardwork Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-07-08 09:06 AM
Response to Reply #52
108. I know lots of liberal Catholics. I know a former Maryknoll nun who worked in Central America
The contras murdered some Maryknoll nuns in El Salvadore during one of our many dirty wars down there. The Catholic Church has a long tradition of radical activism. That's what the Republicans hate.
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Bette Noir Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-07-08 10:08 AM
Response to Reply #52
121. That might depend on where you live.
Here in California, most of the Catholics I know are socially conservative and politically liberal. Heck, in Latin America they can be out-and-out communists.
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DevonRex Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-07-08 10:19 AM
Response to Reply #52
127. My husband's entire family is Catholic. And with the exception of
his elderly father, they're all liberal. Even his elderly father is pretty liberal, except for the fact that he seems to be racist - something I never knew until a black man had a real shot at becoming president. That was a shock. But he's older than Geraldine and comes from the same area, so maybe it's not all that unusual in those circumstances.
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NOLALady Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-07-08 10:51 AM
Response to Reply #52
137. I'm a Catholic
educated in the parochial school system.

I am also extremely liberal.
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fascisthunter Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-07-08 10:57 AM
Response to Reply #137
140. Not a Catholic, but Educated in a Parochial school system
Edited on Sun Sep-07-08 10:58 AM by fascisthunter
run by Salesians... they were pretty cool actually with a left bend.
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NOLALady Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-07-08 01:43 PM
Response to Reply #140
166. Blessed Sacrament Nuns
and Jesuit Priests here.
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fascisthunter Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-07-08 10:55 AM
Response to Reply #52
139. Not to Jump all over You, But I Do Know Plenty of Liberal Catholics
I was lucky to be taught by some in high school. Not everyone follows the conservative interpretation of Catholicism.... most pick and choose what they like and what they feel akin to.
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Ikonoklast Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-07-08 12:31 PM
Response to Reply #52
159. Liberal lapsed Catholic here
From a socially conservative background.

There is no one in my otherwise (besides me) extremely church active family that is voting for Geezer and Gidget.

Catholics can hear the anti-Catholic dog-whistle from crazy fundies almost as well as our Jewish brethren can hear anti-Semitism.

OBTW, I have an uncle, Catholic priest and retired career Naval Chaplain, who says that McCain is almost as crazy as Bush.

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adoraz Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-07-08 12:54 PM
Response to Reply #52
163. WTF? Total bullshit, I know plenty, including myself.
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Dervill Crow Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-07-08 01:41 PM
Response to Reply #52
165. You obviously don't know my family. NT
:eyes:
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nini Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-07-08 01:47 PM
Response to Reply #52
168. What complete bullshit
Edited on Sun Sep-07-08 01:51 PM by nini
I am personally insulted by your remarks since I know many liberal Catholics and priests who truly get the message of Christ and work to live it.

Catholics are like Democrats - a wide range of views and involvement in their cause. There are definitely conservative Catholics and apologists for the priest crap. However, if you ever bothered to go beyond your bubble, you would find that most Catholics are appalled and embarrassed by the pedophile priests AND believe in helping those who need it is a priority.

My nephew is a priest and went into it because he wanted to help the poor. He is a Democrat and always has been. He hardly wants a fascist government since that is what he is fighting against. A friend of his and mine is another priest who is liberal and has spent great time an effort on helping those victims of priest abuse. These two men are 2 of the many who have dedicated their lives to help people.

My family is Catholic and all Democrat. Your bullshit insults go right to the core of what molded who I am and what my family is, and are beyond ignorant. Do not fucking lump us all together as they're are millions of Catholics in this country who get it and work to do what is right.

It's a shame you haven't searched for a liberal parish to see you are wrong. There's plenty of them out there.





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FKA MNChimpH8R Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Sep-06-08 11:31 PM
Response to Original message
53. This is a story that will escape the M$M and may well swing
half a million or more votes as it percolates around the intertubes. You do not openly piss on Catholic charities without some big time backlash.
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Two Americas Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-07-08 06:06 AM
Response to Reply #53
79. there are other networks
This will spread through the Catholic community like wildfire. There are other networks.

I think this was a significant blunder on the part of the McCain campaign.

Bush was just faking Christianity and could therefore keep his ducks in a row on matters Evangelical. (Quite literally by the way - he had AOG pastor and Amway millionaire Doug Wead on his staff to coach him in how to look Christian, is the first president ever to not attend church regularly, and his story about his conversion turned out to be false.)

Now the Republicans are going with the real deal, and they are playing with fire. It may burn them rather than us. Maybe McCain himself (or his staff) doesn't "get it" about the Religious Right and thinks that it just another demographic to pander to?
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yardwork Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-07-08 09:15 AM
Response to Reply #79
111. That's a very good point. They've invited something very nasty onto their ticket.
They're not going to be able to control it.
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LibDemAlways Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-07-08 10:15 AM
Response to Reply #79
125. Reagan was also a White House non churchgoer. He
used the excuse that his presence would be too disruptive. Funny how that never stopped Jimmy Carter or Bill Clinton.

McCain only recently started attending a baptist church for photo op and publicity purposes. Another repuke who talks the talk but doesn't walk the walk.
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Two Americas Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-07-08 02:09 PM
Response to Reply #125
171. is that right?
I didn't know that about Reagan. One would think that the press should be all over that - politicians who pander to people on religion to get into power and then don't practice what they preach.
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LibDemAlways Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-07-08 09:02 PM
Response to Reply #171
202. Yep, during his 1984 debate against
Edited on Sun Sep-07-08 09:03 PM by LibDemAlways
Mondale he responded to a question about his churchgoing habits by explaining, "I pose a threat to several hundred people if I go to church." And the media let him get away with it.

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OneGrassRoot Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-07-08 03:26 PM
Response to Reply #79
183. Hey, Two Americas!
Yep, yep. The Palin thing has me all fired up! Before we were contending with dangerous asshats who pandered to the crazies, which is nauseating enough, but now ONE OF THE CRAZIES is on the ticket! This must be exposed.

This particular group (the fundamentalist/evangelical/Dominionist types) of people are truly hateful, and focused! Very similar to the Islamic fundamentalists, or any extremist fundamentalist group.

Very, very dangerous. Blinded with rage and false righteousness.

I don't think most people in the States realize how pervasive this is today. They must learn.

Nice to see you. :)
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Two Americas Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-07-08 04:05 PM
Response to Reply #183
185. good to see you
That group you refer to is much smaller than we are led to believe. It is not all that pervasive, it is just influential and that is because of a massive campaign of lying, manipulation and fear mongering by the right wingers.

The thing is that she is not crazy - or bad or dangerous - because she is Christian, nor a hunter, nor because her daughter is pregnant out of wedlock, nor because she is from a small town, nor because of her lack of experience or education, nor because she drops her g's when she speaks - "we're doin' all we can for the people of Alaska." Attacking any of that will backfire. I think that one of the considerations the McCain campaign had for putting her on the ticket was the hope that we would be suckered into a stupid culture war over the superficial trappings of her personal life.
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OneGrassRoot Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-07-08 04:15 PM
Response to Reply #185
186. What I am personally experiencing leads me to believe this group is LARGER...
than people realize.

Seemingly "normal" people are, when questioned, saying they think Obama is the antichrist, that they don't believe in evolution, that they want a Christian and Christian only government, and that Sarah Palin's fundamentalist beliefs are exactly what they want. They want HER as president.

No, it's not religion. It's the extremist religions that are at play here.

Seriously, I thought it was just in this very red area I currently live, but I recently discovered that relatives (Catholic, BTW) in Pittsburgh, Texas and other places are completely in alignment with the above. These are people who don't normally talk politics, but it's Palin's candidacy which has given them the courage to speak up and say they agree with all of these things.

I'm stunned. :wow:
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Two Americas Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-07-08 04:51 PM
Response to Reply #186
189. well just consider it
The Religious Right casts a big shadow, yes. But while support has been broad, it is not very deep. Palin is their Achille's heel. A lot of their power depends upon all of us thinking they are powerful and have deep support.

I don't think there is even 10% of the population who want "a Christian and Christian only government" or who share Palin's views. All of the rest of their support is shallow and conditional, and much of that has to do with choosing sides in the cultural wars. It is all a scam. The political right wing made this all up out of thin air. We have to stop dancing to their tune. The Republicans want us to believe that it us 50% but that is a lie. It is classic "divide and conquer."
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OneGrassRoot Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-07-08 04:55 PM
Response to Reply #189
190. I agree..
they do the "divide and conquer" thing oh so very well.

Even 8% of the population believing in the whole "ends times" scenario -- and willing to do whatever to make it manifest -- is very disturbing.

But I hear what you're saying. :)

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Two Americas Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-07-08 05:09 PM
Response to Reply #190
194. no integrity, no honor, no strength, no consistency
It is disturbing, but there is a moral vacuum of hypocrisy and inconsistency at the heart of the movement. They are much weaker than they would have us believe. They are living and thinking mostly as modern materialistic racist white suburban Americans. The different sects can't even agree on how to impose this fantasy of theocracy or what the doctrine should be. It is scary, but most of the sturm and drang is all smoke and mirrors. Much of Evangelical Christianity is now like a meteor screaming through the atmosphere - making a lot of heat and light, but burning out and breaking apart in a spectacular show.

We focus on the intrusion of religion into politics. But this works both ways - politics is destroying the sects that are dragging politics into religion. Separation of church and state protects both church and state. "Politics is wrecking your religion" is a much stronger argument than "your religion is destroying politics" - if we are serious about results, that is, rather than only concerned about being "right" about this.
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Douglas Carpenter Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-07-08 12:31 AM
Response to Original message
58. RECOMMEND!! RECOMMEND!!! RECOMMEND!!! NOW THIS NEEDS TO BE RECOMMENDED TO THE TOP!!!!
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Bobbie Jo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-07-08 12:41 AM
Response to Original message
60. K&R
:kick:
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kestrel91316 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-07-08 12:56 AM
Response to Original message
61. Palin doesn't care that she is smearing Catholics because
Dominionists consider Catholics basically in league with the devil, and they will happily stone them in the streets right along with the gays and the feminists and the adulterers and the disobedient children and those who refuse to convert once they have their power consolidated.
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OneGrassRoot Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-07-08 07:40 AM
Response to Reply #61
88. Oh, okay, this is what I've been trying to find....
I posted below "SOMEONE PLEASE ANSWER THIS QUESTION." LOL

I felt certain her belief system dissed Catholics. Catholics really, really need to know this. I know my sister, in Pittsburgh, had no idea evangelical Baptists, for example, consider them heathens and not Christian.

I have a feeling a lot of people outside of the South would be surprised by this. They need to know.

I need to find Catholic blogs and make this point. LOL
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anonymous171 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-08-08 10:34 PM
Response to Reply #61
207. Yep. I only wish more Catholics realized this.
Maybe then they wouldn't be so eager to throw their lot in with the GOP.
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Hekate Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-07-08 04:40 AM
Response to Original message
66. Does this mean the McCain campaign is throwing out the Catholic vote?
That's an awful lot of white voters -- and Hispanic voters -- and blue collar voters -- and ...

Are they nuts?

Maybe we should write them a thank-you note later on.

Hekate

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Two Americas Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-07-08 05:14 AM
Response to Reply #66
74. lol
It is pretty bizarre, isn't it?

It could be a good thing if this politicized Christianity gets more exposure. I don't object to their faith, and they have a right to pursue it, but it has no place in politics. Maybe the Palin nomination wil make that clear to everyone?
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Two Americas Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-07-08 06:19 AM
Response to Original message
80. thanks Joanne98
Edited on Sun Sep-07-08 06:19 AM by Two Americas
This very significant. The McCain campaign made a serious political blunder - the worst yet.

K and R
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Douglas Carpenter Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-07-08 07:23 AM
Response to Original message
83. another kickand recommend
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OneGrassRoot Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-07-08 07:28 AM
Response to Original message
84. SOMEONE PLEASE ANSWER THIS QUESTION!!!
:) Thank you.

I've posted this question repeatedly over the last two days, to no avail.

About the Catholic vote.

In my experience, fundamentalist extremists like Palin do not believe Catholics are Christian. Seriously, the fundamentalist, evangelical Baptists around me say that with a straight face: They pray to saints, they're not Christian.

Does anyone know the Assembly of God stance on Catholics (gosh, every time I write "stance," I think of Larry Craig...ughhh)?

Are Catholics aware of this? If not, they should be. This is a big vote. The community organizer aspect won't reach a lot of the blue-collar Catholics, such as those in Southwestern PA. If her belief system disses theirs, THAT is another thing that needs to be spread far and wide.

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Zambero Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-07-08 07:47 AM
Response to Reply #84
90. An enigmatic and uneasy poltical alliance
Edited on Sun Sep-07-08 07:51 AM by Zambero
The overwhelming majority of conservative Catholics, Mormons, and Protestant Evangelicals vote as a solid Republican block, although their complete and utter lack of tolerance for religious doctrines other than their own is well understood. Much to the GOP's delight, the age-old "sin" issues of homosexuality and abortion provide a unifying theme (or is it "scheme?"), although I wonder how much longer Palin and others of her ilk can continue to stir up this pot before it blows up in their faces? Mocking those who have championed well-established and successful Catholic charities would seem to be a step in that direction.
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OneGrassRoot Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-07-08 07:56 AM
Response to Reply #90
91. Thank you, Zambero! :) n/t
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AngryOldDem Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-07-08 08:21 AM
Response to Reply #84
95. I grew up in an A of G home.
I was dragged to church every Sunday until I was 13 or so...then I refused to go anymore. Why? Because my best friend at the time was Catholic, and I was sick of hearing nothing but lies and bad, sick jokes spread about Catholics from the A of G pulpit. I had been around my friend's family for long enough to know that what was being said was utter bullshit, with people in the pews believing it wholeheartedly.

Actually, the whole A of G experience turned me off churches and all organized religion for A LONG time.



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OneGrassRoot Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-07-08 10:26 AM
Response to Reply #95
129. Thanks for the confirmation. :) n/t
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DevonRex Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-07-08 10:36 AM
Response to Reply #84
132. You're right. Fundies do NOT believe Catholics are Christians.
They also believe Mormons are cultists. They only have a loose alliance built on pro-life issues. And if the Catholics and Mormons knew what fundies thought of them, they wouldn't want to be associated with fundies at all.
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roody Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-07-08 11:30 AM
Response to Reply #84
148. I was taught that Catholics do not have to accept
Jesus into their hearts, therefore they are not Christians, not born again. This was in apolitical Baptist church.
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bronxiteforever Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-07-08 08:23 AM
Response to Original message
96. Kick & R-Palin is the rich man in the Lazarus tale-she has no concept of urban poverty and
no inclination to discover it.

Catholics do great work for the poor. These Palin and Rudy insults derive from either ignorance of a stunning level or callousness that is malicious
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ElboRuum Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-07-08 08:45 AM
Response to Original message
97. Mocking Community Action
They're not mocking it because they think it's stupid.
They're not mocking it because they don't think it means anything.
They're mocking it because they're damned scared of it.
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George II Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-07-08 08:56 AM
Response to Original message
102. At a time in his life when Obama was HELPING PEOPLE...
Palin was bouncing from school to school trying to find one she could get a degree from, and she was entering beauty pageants.

Compare this:

Obama:

Bachelor's degree Columbia
Law degree Harvard School of Law
"Community organizer" in Chicago
Civil rights attorney
Instructor of constitutional law at University of Chicago Law School
Multi-term State Senator
Senator

Palin:

Captain of her high school basketball team
Miss Wasilla
Second in "Miss Alaska" pageant (winning a college scholarship)
"Miss Congeniality" at Miss Alaska pageant
Attended Hawaii Pacific College, then North Idaho College, then University of Idaho, then Matanuska-Susitna College, finally back to University of Idaho where she earned a bachelor's degree in "communications journalism"
Member Wasilla PTA
Wasilla town council
Wasilla mayor (elected with less than 2,000 votes)
20-months as Alaska Governor

One more thing that someone pointed out last week, lost the citation:

"Jesus Christ was a community organizer, Pontius Pilate was a governor"!!
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BearSquirrel2 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-07-08 09:53 AM
Response to Reply #102
118. Careful ... this is the comparison they're looking for ...
Edited on Sun Sep-07-08 09:55 AM by BearSquirrel2
You see, they're looking for this comparison, our #1 against their #2.

John McCain ...
    Son of an Admiral

    Finished near the bottom of his class at Annapolis.

    Fighter pilot that crashed every plane he ever flew.

    POW who denounced his war actions as "black crimes".

    Cheated on his wife divorced and then married the alcohol heiress with whom he was cheating

    Went to Congress

    Assumed the Senate seat of Barry Goldwater.

    Keating 5 scandal

    Now opposes the only legislative initiative that bears his name, the McCain Feingold law.

    He was for abortion rights, now he's against them.

    He was against the Bush tax cuts, now he's for them.

    Opposed "agents of intolerance", now embraces them.

    Was against torture, but now supports many of the same torments that he was subjected to as a POW.

    Was opposed to the flying of the battle flag of secession, now he's for it.

    He was against ethanol, now he's for it.

    Now decries the influence of lobbyists, but he has a campaign staff full of them.

    Says he knows world affairs but needed Joe Lieberman to inform him ethnic identities in Iraq.

    Once decried Bush's handling of the Iraq war, now he praises it.

    Decries pork, but porks it up something massive.


Lets remember where the real battle is. The Palin vs Obama "debate" only serves to belittle Obama and that is the current strategy of the GOP.
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George II Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-07-08 10:18 AM
Response to Reply #118
126. Much better, I started out thinking about the denigration of "community organizer" and got off track
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Two Americas Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-07-08 02:29 PM
Response to Reply #102
174. don't play into their hands
The Republicans would love to have us make that comparison. You are contrasting our kind of people with their kind of people. We are smarter, superior, holier than thou, and they are a bunch of ignorant rednecks whom we look down upon.

We need to stop handing populism over to the Republicans on a silver platter.

Lincoln had no advanced degrees. Lincoln's resume as an office holder was thinner than Palin's. Jesus had no advanced degrees and held no offices.

We shouldn't mock the things that the general public relates to and identifies with. The cultural wars are rigged to only help the Republicans. They invented them after all.
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Douglas Carpenter Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-07-08 09:01 AM
Response to Original message
105. THIS POST NEEDS LOTS AND LOTS OF RECOMMENDS!!!
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DailyGrind51 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-07-08 09:15 AM
Response to Original message
112. This morning, my Catholic pastor talked about the difficulty of community organizing
and the role of Christ as community organizer. "I hear you loud and clear, Father!":thumbsup: :dem:
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BearSquirrel2 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-07-08 09:25 AM
Response to Original message
113. Great Angle ...

This is a great angle and we have to remember McCain's association with John Hagee and what he says about Catholics. Catholics are by and large not part of the who fundagelical issue. There are weirdo fringe "catholic only/opus dei" types and there are just people who go to church on Sunday and could care less about what their bishops or the pontiff say.

It's a good thing to know that the fundagelicals are largely hostile towards the catholic church. And while people will largely ignore Pope Clement, it's still THERE pope and THEIR institution so your treading on thin water when you talk about their evils.

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Two Americas Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-07-08 02:14 PM
Response to Reply #113
173. more than just an angle
This is the lever with which the entire Relgious Right coaliton can be overturned.
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BearSquirrel2 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-08-08 10:08 PM
Response to Reply #173
205. It's almost enough ...

It's almost enough to get me to start going to church again.

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RoccoR5955 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-07-08 09:27 AM
Response to Original message
114. K & R...
...If they alienate Catholics, they are underestimating them. Next thing they will probably say is that Jesus Christ was a "mavrick."

Bunch o' morans!
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LibDemAlways Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-07-08 10:02 AM
Response to Original message
119. I don't think many Catholics are aware that Obama's
Edited on Sun Sep-07-08 10:52 AM by LibDemAlways
work as a community organizer had ties to the Church. This is something he needs to emphasize more out on the campaign trail in areas with a lot of Catholic voters.

Also, I don't know if it's been mentioned elsewhere, but most Catholics would also be insulted to find out that Palin had been "re-baptized" after her Catholic baptism. The Catholic church teaches that any Christian baptism is valid and does not "re-baptize" converts who've been baptized in another denomination. Palin's "re-baptism" is a slap in the face to her Catholic roots.
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dailykoff Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-07-08 10:51 AM
Response to Reply #119
136. Whoa. Where did you hear that?
That could be trouble.
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LibDemAlways Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-07-08 11:34 AM
Response to Reply #136
150.  If there is any doubt as
to whether a baptism was valid, there is what's called a "conditional" baptism where the person performing the baptism would say "If you are not baptised, I baptise you...."

But if a person from another Christian denomination that baptises "in the name of the father, son, and holy spirit" wants to convert and can provide proof of a previous baptism, that person would not be rebaptised.

Church teaching is specific that you can only be validly baptised once.

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MNBrewer Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-07-08 10:14 AM
Response to Original message
124. Catholics. Outraged. Imagine that.
Wow. I've never heard those two words together. :sarcasm:
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OneGrassRoot Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-07-08 10:28 AM
Response to Original message
130. Where are the best online sites for us to post in order to educate Catholics ...
about these truths? Specifically the fact that Palin's beliefs are a slap in their collective faces, and Obama's community organizing experience tied to the Catholic Church, another slap in the face.
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Two Americas Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-07-08 03:00 PM
Response to Reply #130
178. let's educate ourselves
The Republicans have tried to present some monolithic "Christian" support base, and convince us that Christianity and extreme right wing politics are logically and inevitably interwoven. By responding to them as though what they were saying were true, we have reinforced their lies and inadvertently driven people away from the Left. There is a serious split happening within the broader Christian community. We should, and easily can, reach millions of people with a political message of compassion and charity and justice rather than looking at all Christians as the same and then fighting with people about their religion. That is a lesson we need to learn, and we should focus on that rather than thinking about running around trying to teach other people something.

This will spread through the Catholic community without any help from political liberals. The question is this - when people turn away from the Republican party, will they find a community of Democrats who are tolerant and forgiving, and who are committed to justice, charity and compassion? Or will they find rabid and zealous cultural warriors ready to prove others wrong and mock and ridicule them?

Are justice, charity and compassion just tricks to use, sales pitches to put into the service of partisan politics so as to elect Democratic party politicians to positions of power? Or is the whole purpose of electing Democrats in the fiorst place to promote and build a society based on justice and charity and compassion?
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OneGrassRoot Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-07-08 05:05 PM
Response to Reply #178
193. Hold up, cowboy....lol
I just saw this one. :)

And, as in past times, you may not have been directing this specifically to me, but I shall respond as if you were. ;)

My primary goal is to make sure religion is not a significant part of politics. My goal is to promote separation of church and state.

Therefore, it is not my aim to ridicule religion (sure, it's hard not to when I'm approached almost daily with "you're going to hell and Obama is the antichrist" behavior); instead, as with most things, especially politics, my goal is to EXPOSE HYPOCRISY.

The extreme fundamentalist religions are chock full of hypocrisy. Others may THINK they relate to them (Catholics may think Baptists think and believe as they do), and therefore may be swayed to VOTE accordingly thinking the word "Christian" is an umbrella that describes all.

Compassion, justice, kindness, tolerance...all these things are qualities of being a decent human being, not indicative of a religion.

THAT is the point I hope we eventually reach, especially those who may awaken to the religious hypocrisy being perpetuated by the right-wing "fundie" base of the Republican Party.

I would never make fun of someone's faith. Respect is another quality I hope we as humans can aspire to.

The hypocritical aspects of one's faith, that's another story; and when one tries to conceal their beliefs for personal gain.
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Two Americas Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-07-08 05:45 PM
Response to Reply #193
197. hey!
I said OURselves, not YOU. I am playing nice lol.

I agree completely with what you are saying.
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OneGrassRoot Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-07-08 05:52 PM
Response to Reply #197
198. Okie dokie! Thanks.
Again, very nice to "see" you again.

:hi:
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dailykoff Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-07-08 10:55 AM
Response to Original message
138. Interesting. NPR news interviewed the guy who hired Obama to organize, but never mentioned this.
Edited on Sun Sep-07-08 10:56 AM by dailykoff
Not a word. This was in a story on last night's news.
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fascisthunter Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-07-08 11:00 AM
Response to Reply #138
141. NPR has Become very Corporate and very skewed the last several years
it's sad that it is considered by the general public to be "liberal" when in fact it is nothing like it used to be, prior to 1998.
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dailykoff Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-07-08 11:03 AM
Response to Reply #141
142. That's for sure. Still it's odd that Obama didn't mention this either.
"Community organizer" does sound a little vague, like a euphemism for unemployed, and it would be helpful I think if people knew more about what he really did.
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fascisthunter Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-07-08 11:08 AM
Response to Reply #142
144. Did You Watch Bill Maher's Show the Friday before Last???
Edited on Sun Sep-07-08 11:09 AM by fascisthunter
They had someone from NPR pumping Palin up...
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dailykoff Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-07-08 11:11 AM
Response to Reply #144
145. No but I've heard enough of their coverage to know what you mean.
They're giving her the red carpet treatment, with no embarrassing questions asked.
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DeSwiss Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-07-08 11:04 AM
Response to Original message
143. Oddly missing....
...from all this rhetorical garbage that she's been spewing, is the one about Barack being a "secret Muslim" -- one who upon graduating college immediately went to work -- for the Catholics.

But Sarah Palin was baptized a Catholic??? I didn't know this. And now she's a DOMINIONIST?!?!?!

- Talk about taking the wrong turn...
==============================================================================
DeSwiss


http://www.atheisttoolbox.com/">The Atheist Toolbox


K&R!!!


"Prayer is just a way of telling god that his divine plan for you is flawed -- and shockingly stingy" ~ Betty Bowers

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dailykoff Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-07-08 11:16 AM
Response to Reply #143
146. Palin: "I was baptized Catholic as a newborn
and then my family started going to nondenominational churches throughout our life," she said. She did not mention her longtime association with the Assemblies of God, which claims nearly 3 million members and is one of the biggest Pentecostal groups in the U.S.

link from 3 days ago: http://ap.google.com/article/ALeqM5jCeGgS4vbVt6qpxTpahCgGn_R-dQD92VOKVG0

Then again, maybe it's just another strategic lie? :shrug:
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Oak2004 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-07-08 03:04 PM
Response to Reply #146
180. Yes it is
She has repeated that "nondenominational" nonsense even though the churches she has attended are affiliated with the AoG. You don't repeatedly claim to attend "nondenominational" churches when even a simple Google search reveals a very clear denominational affiliation, by accident.

Palin and the GOP do not want the public to know she is AoG, and especially do not want other Christian denominations to know she has links to Joel's Army groups.

Google "Joel's Army" - it is conservative Christians who are most targeted by them, and who are most alarmed by them (though everyone should be alarmed by them).
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DeSwiss Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-07-08 05:29 PM
Response to Reply #180
195. This SPLC report clearly delineates....
...what you're saying, and shows for all to see just what kind of whack-jobs these Joel's Army mental defectives are. And its this affiliation with the AoG and their Domionist cohorts, which the Repukes don't want anyone in the press to establish regarding their new darling Sarah the Pitbull. So not only is she a secessionist, but she wants to become a "Commander" in the Army of the Lord. Literally. But given the press we have these days, I don't think they need to worry much:


'Arming' for Armageddon
Militant Joel's Army Followers Seek Theocracy

Southern Poverty Law Center
By Casey Sanchez
Intelligence Report
Fall 2008


LAKELAND, Fla. — Todd Bentley has a long night ahead of him, resurrecting the dead, healing the blind, and exploding cancerous tumors. Since April 3, the 32-year-old, heavily tattooed, body-pierced, shaved-head Canadian preacher has been leading a continuous "supernatural healing revival" in central Florida. To contain the 10,000-plus crowds flocking from around the globe, Bentley has rented baseball stadiums, arenas and airport hangars at a cost of up to $15,000 a day. Many in attendance are church pastors themselves who believe Bentley to be a prophet and don't bat an eye when he tells them he's seen King David and spoken with the Apostle Paul in heaven. "He was looking very Jewish," Bentley notes.

Tattooed across his sternum are military dog tags that read "Joel's Army." They're evidence of Bentley's generalship in a rapidly growing apocalyptic movement that's gone largely unnoticed by watchdogs of the theocratic right. According to Bentley and a handful of other "hyper-charismatic" preachers advancing the same agenda, Joel's Army is prophesied to become an Armageddon-ready military force of young people with a divine mandate to physically impose Christian "dominion" on non-believers. "An end-time army has one common purpose — to aggressively take ground for the kingdom of God under the authority of Jesus Christ, the Dread Champion," Bentley declares on the website for his ministry school in British Columbia, Canada. "The trumpet is sounding, calling on-fire, revolutionary believers to enlist in Joel's Army. … Many are now ready to be mobilized to establish and advance God's kingdom on earth."

*snip*

Rick Joyner, a pastor whose books, The Harvest and The Call, helped popularize Joel's Army theology by selling more than a million copies each, goes the furthest on Elijah's List in pushing the hardliner approach. In 2006, he posted a sermon called "The Warrior Nation — The New Sound of the Church," in which he claimed that a last-day army is now gathering and called believers "freedom fighters. As the church begins to take on this resolve, they will start to be thought of more as military bases, and they will begin to take on the characteristics of military bases for training, equipping, and deploying effective spiritual forces," Joyner wrote. "In time, the church will actually be organized more as a military force with an army, navy, air force, etc."

*snip*

Bentley, who claims to be a supernatural healer, is no less over the top, playing his biker-punk appearance and heavy metal theatrics to the hilt. On YouTube, where clips of his most dramatic healings have been condensed into a three-minute highlight reel, Bentley describes God ordering him to kick an elderly lady in the face: "I am thinking, 'God, why is the power of God not moving?' And He said, 'It is because you haven't kicked that women in the face.' And there was, like, this older lady worshipping right in front of the platform and the Holy Spirit spoke to me and the gift of faith came on me. He said, 'Kick her in the face … with your biker boot.' I inched closer and I went like this : Bam! And just as my boot made contact with her nose, she fell under the power of God."

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DUTCWLoD4-4">Video of Bentley "curing" a man of cancer by punching him in the stomach

http://www.splcenter.org/intel/intelreport/article.jsp?aid=964">MORE

- The Bentley Cure seems to consist mainly of punching and kicking people toward good health. Although I can't say that I can recall Jesus doing anything more dangerous than using a little spit and dirt to carry out his cures.

The Domionists, in my view, are all traitors. They make use of the freedoms which our Constitution affords religions so they might flourish, while preparing its minions for war to fight against us and the state in order to destroy those same freedoms.

And its notable that most of the "intelligence" that has been pro-offered about these fruitcakes, is coming from other AoGers and lapsed warriors from this army, and who live in fear of their lives from them. And of course problems the AoG churches are having with "spies" that they claim Bentley is sending into their churches to poach off their flocks. And as laughable as these Joel's Army clowns might seem, they are extremely dangerous. This is a cult-in-the-making, and I won't be at all surprised to read in the news one day soon, where masses of blood has been shed by them or on their behalf.

But the more insidious aspect of the Dominionist threat to me is the influence which they are having within our military, in particular the Air Force Academy and beyond. And this must be cutout like the cancer that it is. Because we've seen this movie before. And like all religious movies, they are always the cause of a lot of senseless deaths of innocents....

==============================================================================
DeSwiss


http://www.atheisttoolbox.com/">The Atheist Toolbox





"Prayer is just a way of telling god that his divine plan for you is flawed -- and shockingly stingy" ~ Betty Bowers
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Mike Nelson Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-07-08 11:18 AM
Response to Original message
147. Outrageous! --nt
mmmmmmmm
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stuartallenmills Donating Member (24 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-07-08 12:03 PM
Response to Original message
156. Every thinking person should be outraged
The Repubs are moving us closer to facism (state+corporations). We can't let this happen.
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downindixie Donating Member (321 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-07-08 12:26 PM
Response to Original message
158. This needs to be push to the Catholics
A big K&R
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rosesaylavee Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-07-08 01:51 PM
Response to Original message
169. So the McCain has dissed another core voting group - how many does that make now?
Edited on Sun Sep-07-08 01:52 PM by rosesaylavee
Roman Catholics: 67,515,016

Jews: 5,275,000
Because of the visiting speaker to her church in August (last month) who stated, in her hearing, that Israel suffered terrorist attacks because of their 'unbelief' in Jesus. http://www.politico.com/news/stories/0908/13098.html

Women of Voting Age: 104,140,289. Palin thinks that we all will vote for her JUST because of her gender regardless of her abysmal stance on every issue?
http://factfinder.census.gov/servlet/QTTable?_bm=y&-geo_id=01000US&-qr_name=DEC_2000_SF1_U_QTP1&-ds_name=DEC_2000_SF1_U

Other groups - scientists and those who value science, teachers, thinking individuals.

But hey, Johnnie boy, you sure picked a winner as a VP. Please continue to make these same kind of brilliant decisions - they say more about you than anything we could.
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McCamy Taylor Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-07-08 02:04 PM
Response to Original message
170. Read the comments after the article at "The National Catholic Reporter"
They will give you an idea of what Catholics will be thinking and saying about Gov. Palin and her remarks (and her candidacy and history in office).

Catholics are not just anti-abortion. They are truly pro-life. That means no war, no death penalty, lots of aid for children, the disabled, clean environment, economic justice, social justice. They believe in doing good works. Many of them are not pleased with a candidate who only wants to protect the fetus but them tells people "You are on your own after that." They see that as political posturing, not morality.

http://ncronline3.org/drupal/?q=node/1766

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Two Americas Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-07-08 03:39 PM
Response to Reply #170
184. bullseye
"Catholics are not just anti-abortion. They are truly pro-life. That means no war, no death penalty, lots of aid for children, the disabled, clean environment, economic justice, social justice. They believe in doing good works. Many of them are not pleased with a candidate who only wants to protect the fetus but them tells people 'You are on your own after that.' They see that as political posturing, not morality."

Well said.
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LonelyLRLiberal Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-07-08 02:10 PM
Response to Original message
172. Thanks for posting this. I just sent this to my Catholic sister, a Republican.
She is thinking of not voting for McCain, but can't bring herself to vote for Obama. Her only child, in his 20s is a strong Obama supporter, despite having been brought up in a rabid Democrat-hating household. I think my sis could be swayed by the influence of her child and the insults to Catholics.
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pjt7 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-07-08 04:46 PM
Response to Reply #172
188. I wouldn't say she was directly
insulting Catholics, but she was certainly insulting good deeds/works, which goes against any Christian beliefs.

I think it's important for people to know that Obama worked w/ this Catholic affiliation.
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Two Americas Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-07-08 05:32 PM
Response to Reply #172
196. that is a win, I think eh?
I think it is a win to get people to question their support for the Republicans, even if they are not prepared to vote Democratic.

Every election cycle, I head out and try to sit down face to face with 100 Republican voters and convince them to at least not support the Republicans. I don't try to sell the Democrats to them - no need, and that wouldn't work anyway. I just say "yeah the Dems suck, believe me I know that better than you do. Now, let's talk about the crisis the country is in and what the Republicans are doing." Get people thinking, break down the partisan wall, take some first steps toward better understanding and communication. I usually succeed in getting those Republican voters to at least sit out or to leave the top of the ballot blank. If I saw all of them as the enemy and attacked them, those results wouldn't be possible.

Plenty of people are rallying the faithful. I always want to go into the enemy's camp.
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donna123 Donating Member (116 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-08-08 10:30 PM
Response to Original message
206. this should be a democrat talking point
we should flood newspapers and networks with emails about this
how repubs mock service to the country
what did palin do out of college, after the 6 years she spent at 5 difft colleges???
although don't focus on palin
just make it about how repubs mock service and seemingly catholicism

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