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DainBramaged Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Aug-23-08 07:57 AM
Original message
Unite under Obama/Biden or get on the mothership and leave
No more bitching and moaning, he IS our VP Candidate.


THAT is all.
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femmocrat Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Aug-23-08 08:11 AM
Response to Original message
1. Hear, hear!
:applause: Well said!
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Eurobabe Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Aug-23-08 08:15 AM
Response to Original message
2. Naa, it's too easy for certain DUers to see the glass half empty...
I do agree with you, as I said on another thread: either shit or get off the pot, and if you can't shit then leave.

We have an election to win. The negativity needs to stop now.

Obama/Biden 2008
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DainBramaged Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-24-08 04:01 PM
Response to Reply #2
10. It's Christmas eve (Convention), your speech is Thursday, who do you call?
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Hepburn Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Aug-23-08 08:15 AM
Response to Original message
3. Amen!
We NEED to defeat McShame in November. So ~~ let's roll!
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WeDidIt Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Aug-23-08 08:17 AM
Response to Original message
4. Yep, this wasn't like the primaries where people supported a candidate for months
with donations, phone banking, and other work.

I also don't recall Skinner giving a cool down period after the Veep choice!

K&FrickinR
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BklynChick Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Aug-23-08 08:22 AM
Response to Original message
5. k/r
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RagAss Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Aug-23-08 08:23 AM
Response to Original message
6. Yeh....Got a problem with it? .....then go work for McHouses !!!!
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tallahasseedem Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Aug-23-08 08:30 AM
Response to Original message
7. I hear you!
All this bitching and moaning around here is annoying...and we wonder why we have a hard time winning elections.
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PFunk Donating Member (687 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Aug-23-08 08:45 AM
Response to Original message
8. Agree. Now tell the PUMA's that.
Edited on Sat Aug-23-08 08:46 AM by PFunk
I dare you :evilgrin:
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DainBramaged Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Aug-23-08 09:47 AM
Response to Reply #8
9. They have a choice, unite or become pointless
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Arnold Judas Rimmer Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-24-08 04:37 PM
Response to Reply #9
13. BECOME pointless?
When was the kittycult anything BUT?
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Two Americas Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Aug-26-08 12:55 AM
Response to Reply #9
269. ROFL
Edited on Tue Aug-26-08 12:57 AM by Two Americas
I love that. It needs to be on a billboard somewhere.

"Unite or become pointless!"



:rofl:

This is the way we unite, brother, and no one is "pointless" just because we happen to disagree with them. We talk out our differences in an atmosphere of mutual respect. Solidarity can never be achieved by threatening people.

The dissent within the party isn't helping the right wing. In fact, the heavy-handed suppression of dissent is what could help the right wing. I believe that there are right wing operatives fanning these flames.

99% of the dissenters will vote the ticket. The vigorous debate increases interest, and makes victory more likely, not less. The :shut up< and get in line" thinking leaves the field to the right wingers. [br />
People's support for the ticket looks very weak when they feel compelled to turn on their brothers and sisters over the smallest disagreement and rip them apart.
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johnaries Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-24-08 04:15 PM
Response to Original message
11. Our country's future is in the balance. UNITE! GObama/Biden! nt
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LWolf Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-24-08 04:36 PM
Response to Original message
12. No.
Not that I don't think Biden was a good choice; I do. He's the best of the three that the msm were trumpeting, and I'm glad he'll be on the ticket.

No, because I don't shut up and go away just because you, or anyone else, tells me to.

It's not really about Obama. It's about the people who nominated him, and the direction of the party. I don't like the right-centrist christian direction the party has moved, and is headed. I don't care for the right-centrist christian positions and rhetoric of the nominee.

It's my party too, and I get to say so when I don't like the direction my fellow democrats are taking us.

Attempt to purge the left wing of the party, and other dissenters, if you will. Just be prepared to be accountable for the party's loss in November when you spend your time driving off dissenters by trying to silence them.

Or, better idea, try addressing the issues of those who voice dissent, giving them a place at the table and a reason to show up for Obama in November.
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americanstranger Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-24-08 04:46 PM
Response to Reply #12
17. Here's your 'reason to show up:'
He's the fucking nominee.

Simple, eh? You either vote for him or you don't.

- as
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LWolf Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-24-08 05:20 PM
Response to Reply #17
35. It's a good thing it's not that simple.
That's not even a reason.
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apocalypsehow Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-24-08 04:55 PM
Response to Reply #12
24. If nothing else, three words:
Roe v. Wade.

If your own tender conscious can't quite grasp the difference between making the enemy the perfect of the good, at least vote for the Democratic nominee for the sake of the women who would be harmed by a McCain Supreme Court that overturned Roe.

You see, sometimes it's just not all about 'me, me, me', as much as you apparently indulge yourself in thinking so. Sometimes you just need to put aside your navel-gazing and take a gander at the big picture.
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LWolf Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-24-08 05:19 PM
Response to Reply #24
34. I don't respond well to bullying.
Which is my point to the OP.

Ask nicely. Give me a reason to compromise with you. Just don't tell me to get in line or leave, or I'm likely to be voicing dissent, loudly, all the way to November.

Since, despite your cute little put-downs, I don't spend time "navel gazing," and my points of disagreement are those that affect all, not just me, I'm concerned about Roe v Wade no matter who gets elected.

Obviously, women's reproductive rights are a good reason to defeat McCain. Obama is not exactly a champion for those same rights, so that's not really an issue to bring up if you want me to cheer him on. You'd need to find an issue that is an actual strength, not just a "not McCain."

So far I've heard him on two points that I appreciated. He got nailed hard by the mainstream for both of them. One was suggesting that all American students should learn a second language.

I don't even remember what the other was. I do remember that he was taking some heat for it. I remember thinking that perhaps it would be better for him if I were to go on disagreeing with everything he says, lol.
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apocalypsehow Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-24-08 05:40 PM
Response to Reply #34
43. Ah, "bullying," the dead-ender code word for "your facts make me mad." Fine:
stay home or vote for McCain. If you don't have the vision to see all the reasons you should vote for the Democratic nominee, then by all means do what you wish.

Just don't come complaining to the rest of us when McCain wins, and we get Bush's third term.
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LWolf Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-24-08 06:28 PM
Response to Reply #43
89. I haven't seen a fact yet
from you.

You just don't "get" it.

I'm not voting any particular way because you think I ought to, and I'm not "going home" "staying home," or doing anything else because you assign me that task.

You do a fine job of bringing up a great point, though.

Blame is not a one-way street. If Obama loses, it's for one or both of 2 reasons:

1. Election fraud
2. He couldn't earn enough votes.

The Democratic Party hasn't exactly been persistent in cleaning up the potential for election fraud. If Obama can't earn enough valid votes, then the fault lies with him, his campaign, the people who nominated him, and those of his supporters who got on stage to purge dissent rather than inviting dissenters to the table.

It's not the fault of people who exercise their freedom to vote as they choose at the polls.
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apocalypsehow Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-24-08 06:41 PM
Response to Reply #89
101. No, YOU just don't "get it," sport. We're not talking about handing LWolf intellectual cotton candy
and begging him/her pretty-please with sprinkles on top to please support the Democratic nominee.

We are telling LWolf to either put up or shut up: either you support four more years of Bushco, or you don't. All the rest of your online mumbling and rambling is just so much conversational coffee-house crap.

Now, vote for Obama or vote for McCain or don't vote at all: I don't give a happy horse-shit what you do. But please spare us any more of this half-assed Hamlet act, with it's constant "to be or not to be" parsing. It's really rather silly.
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DainBramaged Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-24-08 06:57 PM
Response to Reply #101
115. He needs 'reassurance' he is important this election.
:rofl:

Always someone who has to throw shit at a clean window.
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Andrea Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-24-08 07:02 PM
Response to Reply #115
122. Why can't s/he get reassurance the way the good people do?
By conforming.

It's so much neater and more pleasant.
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apocalypsehow Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-24-08 07:16 PM
Response to Reply #122
134. What a lovely set of playmates you have:
Edited on Sun Aug-24-08 07:19 PM by apocalypsehow
"And all through yesterday all they bragged about was that everyone loved the ticket. I say let em have DU and that fucking waste of a party.* Of course everyone else is supposed to concede to what the Democrats who've voted against our class interests want. Don't ever expect that these people will ever concede to you."


http://oldelmtree.com/discussion/index.php?topic=994.ms...

:eyes:



Edit/*: emphases added.
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nadinbrzezinski Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Aug-26-08 11:16 AM
Response to Reply #134
272. Lets play what if... what if the left listens to you
gets into the mother-ship

Doesn't vote...

And Obama looses

then we will hear the screams about THEY deserted the party

It could NEVER EVAH be about people like YOU GUYS driving votes away

NEVER... REALLY

Here is a little secret for you. YOU GUYS, yes, YOU GUYS need every fucking vote... every one...

It is called voter fraud

It is called voter suppression

I wonder WHY are you engaging in it?

You can't grasp this concept... and engage in the kind of party purity cleansing (that I am sure is not supported by the party) that we have seen in other places. In the end, you keep this up... it will cost this party the white house.

The left you despise so much.. you need them.. just as McCain needs the fundies.

That is reality

So will you keep telling us to buzz off? People just may... and then, when you get your self fulfilling prophecy you will blame us for your strategic error.

So stop bantering, and driving people away... or you just may get what you don't want.

Oh and at this point what people do in November is a private affair, in case you have not gotten the message

Here is another piece of trivia for ya.. if people are posting on Democratic Underground 99% chance that when all is said and done will vote for the ticket, as long as you don't manage to disgust them to the point that they stay home en-masse! Or are you so damn naive? And if you are that afraid that people will not... then there is a problem with the nomination process and the candidate.

That said, sooner or later, the DLC \Blue dog keeps taking the left for granted, the left will leave... it has HISTORICALLY happened... not that you'd know that... like most Americans you don't know what happened last week, let alone seventy years ago, or a hundred...


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DainBramaged Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-24-08 07:57 PM
Response to Reply #122
161. So you really are an Anti-Obama lurker? How fucking sad.
Edited on Sun Aug-24-08 07:59 PM by DainBramaged
And now we know who the rest of your are.
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DevonRex Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Aug-26-08 02:29 PM
Response to Reply #161
275. And she is one of the dearly departed.
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Liberal Dose Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-24-08 07:28 PM
Response to Reply #101
144. 2b or not 2b - which apartment was that, anyway?
I love "conversational coffeehouse crap" and intend to lift it from you and use it on a daily basis. :D
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27inCali Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-24-08 06:12 PM
Response to Reply #34
70. how about
making the fate of the free world a priority above being irritated by the middle (by the way, most average people are in that middle).

yeah, they're soppy milktoast types, these fencesitter undecided voter types. But it's about the bigger picture. Ending the Bush era, and ushering in a new era of hope for our country and world.

I hardly think the people pushing for that are bullies, they are just tired of the negative nellying, like very many of us are mostly because it's counter-productive and much of the negativity feels like a distraction from the things we need to be prioritizing right now.

let's think and feel like winners for a while here, feel good about ourselves and our big tent party full of all kinds of different people and ideas and see if that doesn't help our cause a little.

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LWolf Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-24-08 06:38 PM
Response to Reply #70
98. Here's the thing.
Ending the Bush era? Great. I'm on board. I was on board 4 years ago, even though I was disappointed with the nomination of Kerry. To be honest, I'd be thrilled with Kerry at this point.

Of course, the Bush era is ending, regardless of who wins in November. Term limits, you know.

McCain undesirable? You're right. I don't want him in the oval office.

It's that "ushering in a new era of hope (and change) I differ with.

I don't have any hope that an Obama administration will deliver the change I wish to see. It's that simple.

Therefore, it's AGAIN, the lesser of two evils vote. I'm 48 years old. I've been voting for 30 years, and I'm sick to death of the "get in line, shut up, hold your nose and vote for the lesser of 2 evils" mantra.

It's a good thing that I'm an evolving pacifist with a reasonable amount of self-discipline. If I indulged my first impulse, it would be to kick the teeth in of every person who chanted the "Do you want 4 years of McCain" mantra. It doesn't help. It doesn't work. It doesn't do anything except piss off the votes you need to win.

There are people who are beyond where I'm at. They quit. Recently, or less recently. They won't vote at all. Or they will cast 3rd party protest votes against the two major parties.

If you don't want to address dissent WITHIN the party, you increase the number who LEAVE the party behind. I think THAT is counter-productive.
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Whisp Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-24-08 07:08 PM
Response to Reply #98
128. I wish I had more knowledge on historial transitions
of rulers and governments.

I would guess that they either occur as a transition or abruptly through revolution or inbetween which I think we may be on the cusp of - or through what we all may be facing in the near future - more wars, water wars, environmental catastrophies unequaled in the past, the breakdown of the economic and social systems, - a world depression. Maybe we do have to start over again and hopefully do it better the next time.

What would force us as not to have to choose between the lesser of 2 evils, but the better of 2 (or more parties) goods?

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Whisp Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-24-08 06:19 PM
Response to Reply #34
78. the only thing I can suggest for you and others who are not sure...
Edited on Sun Aug-24-08 06:22 PM by Whisp
I think we all agree that mcCain will be hazardous to all our health for the next 4 or possibly 8 years. There's no doubt about that.

What we don't solidly know yet, is how Obama is going to change things once he gets into office, how many promises he will keep, etc.,

That is still the mystery, as no one has a crystal ball. I have every confidence that he is an honorable and admirable man and will do his best, within his powers and with all the interfrence I am sure he is going to come up against - to fillful his promises as best he can (what a plate he has before him!), but I can understand how some people may be doubtful - it's been a horrible 8 years with so many dissapointments.

I'm going to wait and see, and until then I am going to enjoy the ride.
If he ends up dissapointing, well that will certainly be a huge hit but I still really think that he will be a more reasonable president to deal with and listen to our gripes than that murderous bastard on the throne now or the addled wanna be that is running the same platform.

If Obama ends up anything like or worse these clowns, I will be with you in spirit to kick his ass.
But I highly doubt that.

Come on over. The water if fine for now. Let's enjoy the moment.
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LWolf Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-24-08 06:40 PM
Response to Reply #78
100. See # 98,
since I thought I was responding to your post when I typed that.
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DainBramaged Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-24-08 06:55 PM
Response to Reply #34
113. JESUS it isn't about bullying, IT IS ABOUT THE FUTURE OF FUCKING AMERICA
Edited on Sun Aug-24-08 07:32 PM by DainBramaged
stop being so goddamn self-centered and think about the best possible outcome for AMERICA not YOU.



PS I see ignored people
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Runcible Spoon Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-24-08 07:24 PM
Response to Reply #113
141. hahahaha what a bunch of bullshit logic.
If everyone voted for the best possible outcome for America not "us", we would NOT be voting for DLC whores. Truth is, most people are ENCOURAGED to vote for their own interests. Just listen to the rhetoric in campaign ads. The point YOU are missing is that our diseased culture conflates selfish acts like owning huge homes, driving as much as we care to (or can afford to), and other forms of stupid mass consumption with freedom and patriotism. People don't realize that the stranglehold the corporations have on our everyday life are the real threats to freedom.

Democrats vote for selfish reasons as much as Republicans. Each side has a "selfless cause" side; they have abortion/homophobia/Fundie stuff and we have the environment/choice/restraint of corporate power/etc. But the reality is, we mostly vote for what will benefit US the most. Pretending otherwise is ignorance and hypocrisy.

Go ahead, flame away the "purist" because she does not prostrate in front of a bunch of pretty lies. Ironic, how the ones who criticize "purists" are the ones spewing the "tow the line or get the fuck out" line. Is irony lost on EVERYONE today?!

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LWolf Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-25-08 08:23 AM
Response to Reply #113
195. You still don't get it.
If, as you say, its about the future of America, then it behooves you to bring as many people to the table as possible, does it not?

You don't force march people to the table. Neither do you deny them a place. It's not your goal I object to, it's the way you go about it. Your methods lack civility and effectiveness. They are counter productive.

If you are so clear-sited that you can see "ignored people," lol, why not take a deep breath, and "see" the point I'm making? Bluster, bombast, denial, and attack, won't make it go away.

Start with this: the party is not unified. You recognize that, since you demand that we "unite." Instead of demanding, why not explore what it would take to build that unity, and try to find a way to accomplish that?

Build bridges. Don't burn them.
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barack the house Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-24-08 07:03 PM
Response to Reply #34
123. There is no bullying involved this is who we have selected as party if not what folks want there -->
Edited on Sun Aug-24-08 07:06 PM by barack the house
are options. But only one option will save us from wwIII paying for more mccain jokes or having a republican presidents that likes sexual assault jokes which can't bode well for women.
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Runcible Spoon Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-24-08 07:31 PM
Response to Reply #123
147. Let me give you a hint: You will never manipulate or force anyone into voting for anything.
You might think you're preaching to the choir here, since we all have to support the candidate or force tombstoning, but for the myriad of lurkers, what they here from this logic is "OMFG.COM you better vote for Obama or you risk your immortal soul! Only a selfish heathen would possibly vote third party!"

You may be able to bully down someone to promise to vote Obama to your face, but I'm telling you, the minute they walk into that voting booth they are on their own. You will never know what they really chose. If you give so much of a damn about the candidate, quit making his supporters look like playground jerks who wish to quash reasoned criticism and discussion.

This isn't even directed primarily at you, but honestly I think some people just really want a fight and don't think that what they say has any effect here. It might or might not, but to sit here expecting the sky to fall because some people are voicing their concerns just makes us look like cultists.

I trust, as always, the mods to make the reasoned and admittedly somewhat yet unavoidably arbitrary judgments about what does and doesn't fly here. We don't need to read a bunch of frothing at the mouth posts about anyone who doesn't toe the line adequately.
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LWolf Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-25-08 08:30 AM
Response to Reply #123
198. No bullying on your part.
That's appreciated.

That's also my point; that you don't unify people behind Obama by demanding that they unify or leave.
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No Elephants Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-25-08 07:55 AM
Response to Reply #34
190. What do you respond to that has not already been done?
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LWolf Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-25-08 08:28 AM
Response to Reply #190
197. Great question.
Start with this: the nominee has been at pains to distance himself from the left wing of the party, while embracing the center, the right of center, and republicans.

This is not a recipe guaranteed to get the Democratic left, independent left, and 3rd party left to unify behind him. What are you, as a mainstream Democrat, doing, to convince the candidate, and the party, to reach out to the left? What is the nominee, and the party, offering the left, other than a "lesser of two evils" vote?

That's the place to start. Making sure that the left, unless you are willing to concede their votes, have a place at the table.
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No Elephants Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-25-08 01:38 PM
Response to Reply #197
239. I disagree with you. He has not distanced himself from the left at all, but
some specificity would sure be helpful
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LWolf Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-25-08 07:50 PM
Response to Reply #239
259. Quick and easy to provide.
When he refers to the "excesses" of the 60s and 70s (that's the left, if you can't figure it out,) and admires Ronald Reagan for changing our trajectory:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HFLuOBsNMZA

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Zhade Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-24-08 04:57 PM
Response to Reply #12
27. Given that you can't change the nominees, can you at least get him elected before tearing him down?
I'm pretty progressive (otherwise known as an old-school moderate), and I feel you - especially on the religious bullshit - but it's not like we can do anything but hurt his chances by bitching.

Once he's elected, we can kick his ass.

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LWolf Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-24-08 05:07 PM
Response to Reply #27
30. That's okay with me.
He's certainly better than the alternative, anyway.

As long as nobody tells me to get in line or leave, anyway, which is the point of my response to the OP.

That kind of demand is guaranteed to keep me on strike.
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Zhade Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-24-08 06:20 PM
Response to Reply #30
79. Same boat, my friend.
If it helps, I'm pretty sure that the OP was directed at PUMA fools more than us lefties.

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LWolf Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-24-08 06:22 PM
Response to Reply #79
82. I think so, too.
I get frustrated when there is a wide-scale assumption that disagreement with Obama is because one is, or was, a Clinton supporter.

It denies dissent from the left.
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IndependentDem Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-24-08 09:19 PM
Original message
I agree with that...
and it is a problem right now... but I think it will get better after all the PUMA/Clinton shit dies down. Many Obama supporters have gotten a bit trigger happy because it is getting hard to tell the difference between "dissent from the left" and divisiveness from freeper land.
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LWolf Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-25-08 08:32 AM
Response to Original message
201. I think you nailed that one.
I'm not one to take those attacks from the trigger happy without pointing out that they are flinging arrows at the wrong targets. :shrug:
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IndependentDem Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-24-08 09:15 PM
Response to Reply #79
174. I think you are exactly right!!
I don't think anyone wants to push out the lefties, but this PUMA "hillary or bust" shit needs to end now that we have a ticket.
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MaraJade Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-24-08 08:15 PM
Response to Reply #30
162. I'm with you. . .
I'm okay with everything as long as the insults and bullying stops. No one here
or anywhere else has any right to tell anyone to get lost. Period.

I'm waiting and biding my time. I hope Obama gets elected. Then he'll be the
one to watch. After all (as Harry Truman said), the BUCK STOPS right at the desk
in the Oval Office.
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Bonobo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-24-08 09:06 PM
Response to Reply #30
171. I love it. An anonymous internet can get you to not vote by telling you to vote.
And yet you claim to be immune to manipulation!
LOL!
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LWolf Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-25-08 07:50 AM
Response to Reply #171
186. An anonymous internet cannot get me to do anything at all,
including shut up, get in line, leave, etc., which is the point that you are obviously avoiding.

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No Elephants Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-25-08 01:45 PM
Response to Reply #30
243. Voting or not voting in the real world based upon a message board is not rational.
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LWolf Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-25-08 07:37 PM
Response to Reply #243
254. That's true.
Any more than expecting people to shut up and get in line, and UNIFY, DAMN IT, because you belligerently demand that they do, is rational.
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Donnachaidh Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-25-08 08:56 PM
Response to Reply #27
266. "Once he's elected, we can kick his ass."
Like we've kicked Nancy Pelosi's ass? Or how about Harry Reid? Have we kicked HIS ass?

Sorry -- once bitten twice shy. ESPECIALLY in the way we've been treated SINCE 2006.
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MuseRider Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Aug-26-08 12:58 PM
Response to Reply #266
273. I knew if I looked
far enough down this thread I would find someone who said exactly what I was thinking. Thanks. Too bad isn't it? People need to realize that the days of "kicking ass" to move our candidates or our officials is mostly, if not entirely, over.
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DutchLiberal Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-24-08 05:11 PM
Response to Reply #12
32. Couldn't have said it better!
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mkultra Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-24-08 06:22 PM
Response to Reply #12
80. the election was your voice.
And its over. Bitching now is senseless.
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LWolf Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-24-08 06:43 PM
Response to Reply #80
102. No it wasn't.
There was no acceptable candidate left on the ballot 5 months before my primary ever arrived.

It's nice to know that the election is "over," lol. I guess Obama can just close all his campaign offices and save the money and effort.

Shit, we don't even need a convention, if it's all over.

When the election is REALLY over, then it's too late. Then you've elected someone on a platform you don't want, giving them a mandate for that platform. NOW, when they need to earn your vote, is the time to dissent.
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mkultra Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-24-08 06:47 PM
Response to Reply #102
107. in a democracy, we use our vote to influence the elctorate
so while your vote isn't obeyed, its does have voice. If your undecided about which party most closely represents your views, then your probably on the wrong board.

once the election has started, its better that you speak your voice to those who would oppose your closest match rather than those who already stand with you. Your facing the wrong way saying the wrong things. Your clothes are probably on inside out as well.

These things are not ideal, they are reality. Which is also something you can change if you follow the above formula.
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LWolf Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-24-08 06:59 PM
Response to Reply #107
118. I think I have a pretty good idea
about whether or not I'm on the right board. I've been on this one longer than you have.

Neither party comes anywhere close to representing my views. That doesn't mean I go home and don't vote. It's my right and responsibility as a citizen to participate.

I don't agree with your formula. It's as simple as that.

Your formula has me electing a candidate with a mandate that I don't support. Once the mandate is given, there is no reason whatsoever for my voice to matter. The only time my voice DOES mean anything is when I vote.

That means NOW. Now is the only time my voice carries any weight at all.

"My" being figurative for all of us, especially those of us who aren't happy with the nominee's agenda.
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Runcible Spoon Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-24-08 07:49 PM
Response to Reply #118
157. BRAVO L-Wolf!
I support everything you have said on this thread. NOBODY CAN BE BULLIED INTO A VOTE. To even suggest so is to violate the whole principles a representative democracy stands for.

As I've said many times, you might be able to bully someone into promising to vote to your face, but the minute they step into that booth, they are ALONE. HAHAHAHHAHA what percentage of American married people cheat? If you can't even get the majority of married spouses to keep their vows, how the fuck do you expect to manipulate someone into voting for something that doesn't resonate with them? :rofl:

People who aggressively try to get others to toe some line instead of actually talking to them about their reasons for being attracted to a 3rd party candidate are in for some big surprises.

When did the people start serving the government instead of vice versa?

We don't owe ANY politician SHIT. THEY OWE US.
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LWolf Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-25-08 08:17 AM
Response to Reply #157
194. Thank you for "getting" it. nt
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Andrea Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-24-08 07:01 PM
Response to Reply #107
121. Hmm...
Edited on Sun Aug-24-08 07:05 PM by Andrea
<quote>
If your undecided about which party most closely represents your views, then your probably on the wrong board.
</quote>

Because there's no way that the failure of the party to represent the members could be the leaders' fault, right? Okay yeah, I get it.
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mkultra Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-24-08 09:43 PM
Response to Reply #121
180. because when the party stops representing you
then its no longer your party. Instead its your responsibility to find one that does. This being DU, its pretty much here to support the democratic nominee and party.
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Donnachaidh Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-25-08 09:00 PM
Response to Reply #180
267. I guess the party of the BIG TENT
doesn't want to live up to that promise then?

It's sounding so much like another group I won't mention around here. :eyes:
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DainBramaged Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-24-08 06:59 PM
Response to Reply #102
119. God, you really want to drive the point home you think it's time for dissent within the party?
Too late pal. I just put you on ignore, your ramblings are futile and selfish, to say the least. Come back in four years when you can interfere again.
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LWolf Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-24-08 07:00 PM
Response to Reply #119
120. That's the way to win an argument, lol.
Try bullying someone into submission, and if that doesn't work, run away.

:eyes:
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mkultra Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-24-08 09:44 PM
Response to Reply #120
181. internal disruption is bullying.
Its essentially what your doing.
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LWolf Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-25-08 08:35 AM
Response to Reply #181
202. Refusing to be bullied is not bullying.
It's also not "internal disruption." Dissent is not "internal disruption." Internal disruption is caused by attempting to bully people into compliance instead of working to reach consensus.
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mkultra Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-25-08 09:16 AM
Response to Reply #202
214. Discussion is one thing, disruption is another
Edited on Mon Aug-25-08 09:23 AM by mkultra
its not a fine line. Most of the disruptors here claim to simply be concerned about the direction the party is heading in. This is all fine until the bashing begins. The rise of the "concern troll"

The simple fact is that the nominees are set. If you view this as a lesser of two evils battle, then perhaps you should consider McCain's potential when you start talking to indies. As far as im concerned, ill support the ticket as its laid because i saw what lack of unity caused in recent elections.

In elections, you are either part of the solution or part of the problem.
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LWolf Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-25-08 08:20 PM
Response to Reply #214
265. I just don't live in a 2-dimensional world.
I can't see things so "either/or." I can easily see the disaster of McCain without thinking that Obama is somehow a hero ready to save me.

I didn't respond to this thread to talk about Obama. I responded to point out that you don't get unity by demanding compliance.

That's still true.
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CTyankee Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-25-08 09:49 AM
Response to Reply #202
217. I'm not for shutting anyone up but I do have a question for you.
What action are you taking to get a party that you can support? I am pretty left myself and I am supporting Obama (I'm far too old to be "cultish" about him or anyone else, however). I have differed in the past with Obama on his healthcare proposal as I prefer single payer. I can't get single payer right away so I'll take the long roundabout road to get there. I would imagine that is one instance where you would disagree with me. So what are you doing about it, if that is the case, or other issues on which you disagree with Obama? Besides voicing your opinion here (fine with me) what else are you doing? How much time do you spend doing it? I ask because I have a neighbor who spends a great deal of his time online arguing with people who differ with him and writing LTTEs constantly to our local newspapers. OK, good 1st amendment stuff. What else, I keep wondering?

I also wonder if you are not wasting your time here. Would not a better use of your time be spent either starting or supporting an alternative left party to achieve your goals? Arguing with people on DU can get you only so far. There comes a point where you are wearing out the seat at your computer more than the soles of your shoes with your "activism."

Just something to think about...
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LWolf Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-25-08 08:08 PM
Response to Reply #217
261. Some answers:
Some of the actions open to me to "get a party that I can support" are illegal to discuss at DU. It is legal, of course, to discuss the direction the Democratic Party is headed, and anything necessary to, in Obama's words, "change the trajectory."

I'm spending what time I have. I won't have as much time to chat about stuff on DU for awhile, since summer break is over and I'm at work all day and taking care of other duties as well. I'll check in regularly, but will have less to say. Obviously, the response I gave to the OP on this thread is taking more time than I've really got. I just feel like I ought to respond when people talk to me, so here I am.

LTTEs; I've written a few in the past, but I really don't want my name in the paper. My students' parents aren't confident that I can keep politics out of my classroom when they read me in the paper regularly. When I want to write a letter, I write to my reps and to Democratic Party leaders at several levels. My mom writes regular LTTEs. When I have something I want to express, I tell her about it and she sometimes shoots a letter off.

I'm involved in a couple of groups working directly on issues of importance to me.

I used to donate, but not any more. I'm having a hard time stretching my paychecks these days.

When there is a candidate I strongly support, I write letters for the campaign.

As far as whether or not time at DU is a waste, that remains to be seen.

It wasn't in the early years. When DU was still "underground," it was more accurately described as "one of the premier left-wing websites on the Internet." As the board has grown, it has become more centrist. Not unexpected. I'm not the only leftist left. There are still some great people here. The board is diminished by the loss of many great people who've done just that; seen the direction and walked away. That time may come. If it does, then it means I've given up, not just on DU, but on the party.

Frankly, I don't think the party can afford to purge the left. I think it's the wrong move to alienate natural allies while you reach out to the right wing. I hope there are Democrats that still appreciate somebody saying so.

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CTyankee Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Aug-26-08 07:45 AM
Response to Reply #261
271. Thank you. That was a thoughtful response and I appreciated hearing from you in such depth.
I like DU a lot and spend more time here than at any other website. I've been here since just before the 04 election but I can't say I have seen the movement to the center that you have. I'm not saying you are wrong, just that I haven't seen it. I have seen a variety of views, however. And I have really appreciated the factual information I have found here when I asked for it (as I do a lot, to help me better understand the myriad issues of the day). It's interesting. I have never felt compelled to use the Ignore function because I don't understand why I would need it. If I get really angry it is toward the Republican Party, not usually toward DUers. That is why your views on this thread don't particularly upset me (in fact, I DO think we need opposing points of view). I'm not in agreement in several areas with you but I wouldn't shut you down for anything. DU has become a bit of a refuge, I must admit, for Democrats who are over-the-top pissed off at what the Republican Party has done to our country and I accept that for what it is.

I hope all goes well for you. What do you teach, if I may ask?
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MaraJade Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-24-08 06:28 PM
Response to Reply #12
88. Thank you so much for saying this!
:woohoo:

I am wondering why the Obama followers keep telling us to "get lost." If we
get lost, Obama loses by a landslide. Don't they even realize this?

Why is the Democratic Party turning into a Cult of Personality for Barack Obama?
Why are we being bullied and mistreated for expressing our fears and our opinions.

As you say, it seems to be an attempt to purge the party of dissenting voices. They
don't want to hear about our issues at all.

I wonder if Obama knows how they feel?

(goes off to send an email to Obama with a link to this thread. . .)

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mkultra Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-24-08 06:30 PM
Response to Reply #88
92. where not telling you to get lost
the PUMA contingent comes here bashing Obama and praising Hill. This creates arguments that i believe are intended to drive folks like you away.

As far as im concerned, you have as much right here as i do. Unless, of course, you start trolling. :)
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MaraJade Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-24-08 08:34 PM
Response to Reply #92
165. Hillary is no less worthy of praise. . .
than she was before the end of the primary season. She is intellgent, astute and
articulate. In my opinion, she understands the issues that matter to ME.
She didn't turn into a pumpkin just because Obama won the primaries.
She is STILL the great person she was before. Only now that greatness will turn to the
work of the US Senate, where she will watch out for people like me. Obama will show wisdom
if he respects her counsel.

I've always thought that Obama was a good person, too--make no mistake about it.
As a black woman of over 50 years of age I am just having trouble understanding him.
I hope that his positions will become clearer in the coming weeks, and I hope that he spends time
explaining some of the things he supports and why he supports them. These are my concerns, and I
think that these concerns are fair. For someone to slam me, tell me to "shut up and get on for the
ride" isn't fair, especially when I have no idea where the "bus" is going.
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mkultra Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-24-08 09:47 PM
Response to Reply #165
182. again
im not so sure that your the actual target of the "move on" slander.

Praise her all you want. If you come here BASHING Obama and praising hillary, you'll get no respect from me or from many others. You might even get some granite.


But praise on.
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No Elephants Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-25-08 01:43 PM
Response to Reply #165
240. It's about praising Obama-Biden now. If and when Hillary is the Dem nominee, I'll
praise her. It is not about her at this point, good, bad or indifferent.
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LWolf Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-24-08 06:44 PM
Response to Reply #88
106. You are welcome, of course.
I am one who wants to do more than defeat McCain. I want to actually win something when I "win."

The only way I can see to do that is to keep voicing what constitutes a "win," whether or not it disagrees with the candidate.
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scarletwoman Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-24-08 06:57 PM
Response to Reply #88
116. Uh, "cult of personality"? WTF? How about "unite behind the Dem nominee & win the election"?
This bullshit "cult of personality" meme was bad enough during the primaries, it's absolutely inexcusable now.

sw

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MaraJade Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-24-08 08:37 PM
Response to Reply #116
166. Okay then. . .
We'll just wait and see.

I am very good at waiting. . .
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scarletwoman Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-24-08 08:52 PM
Response to Reply #166
168. "Wait and see"? What a crock. Don't vote for the Dem ticket then, if it's just too damn hard to do.
And don't lay your selfish bullshit on those of us who have sucked it up election after election to vote for the Dem candidate whether we liked him or not. We do it because opposing the Republicans is the right thing to do for the sake of EVERYBODY.

I'm not going to kiss anybody's ass who wants to fucking threaten me with withholding their vote. Fuck that kind of selfishness. You're not special, you're not even a damn Democrat if you refuse to vote for the Democratic candidate.

sw
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Two Americas Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Aug-26-08 01:37 AM
Response to Reply #168
270. yes, it has been awful
Yes, many of us "have sucked it up election after election to vote for the Dem candidate whether we liked him or not" and more importantly than whether or not we "liked" the candidate, also whether or not we went forward or backward as a result. We have steadily gone backward. It has been miserable, and many of us secretly wonder if it has been the best course of action, but then we face the fact that there is no alternative and we feel like we are helplessly standing by watching a train wreck in slow motion.

That makes it tempting to savage anyone who reminds us of all of that misery, and to blame them for our misery.

Ir was bad enough when we had to vote for the lesser of two evils time after time, as both moved farther and farther to the right. But now, it has gotten so bad that not only must we vote for the lesser of two evils, we cannot even complain about it without getting threatened and bullied.

That is a sign that things are coming unraveled. Those pointing out that things are unraveling are not the ones causing the problem. Their only crime is in reminding us of it.
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mkultra Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-24-08 09:49 PM
Response to Reply #166
183. great, we'll all wait together
try not to bash those of us who support Obama in the process.
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DainBramaged Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-24-08 06:54 PM
Response to Reply #12
111. It IS about the party, and you can neener neener all you want, just don't be a jerk about it.
BTW, it's what, 10 weeks till the election, I think your chair at the table broke a long time ago.
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LWolf Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-25-08 07:51 AM
Response to Reply #111
187. I thought you put me on ignore, lol. nt
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11 Bravo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-25-08 08:39 AM
Response to Reply #187
204. Check the time stamp, genius.
You were placed on ignore 5 minutes AFTER the post you're responding to.
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LWolf Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-25-08 08:47 AM
Response to Reply #204
207. Since we're talking about "genius," lol,
you are apparently unaware of the true genius. My worthy opponent "sees ignored people;" his genius allows him to ignore people and engage them at the same time.

Do you really have so little to do that you follow him around to see, not only who he puts on ignore, but when? If so, you might want to look a little further.

Are you worried that he can't answer for himself, so you must rush to his defense?

:rofl:
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11 Bravo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-25-08 09:14 AM
Response to Reply #207
213. I wouldn't know your "worthy opponent" if I tripped over him or her.
I was just enjoying the thread, noticed a truly nonsensical post, and pointed it out. Is there any factual issue you care to dispute, or would you simply prefer to just keep posting those adorable little rofl smilies?
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LWolf Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-25-08 08:10 PM
Response to Reply #213
262. My "worthy opponent"
is the person I was talking to when you decided to step in.

Is that normal for you? To step into the middle of a conversation to address what you hear without any context, or awareness of the person it was said to?
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greguganus Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-24-08 07:10 PM
Response to Reply #12
129. Stop threatening us with your vote. n/t
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LWolf Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-25-08 07:53 AM
Response to Reply #129
188. Why would you feel threatened by my vote?
Stop trying to purge the party of dissent.
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quakerboy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-24-08 07:28 PM
Original message
I agree with you about
Not just shutting up. Thats what this whole civil liberties thing is about.

That said, I think that those complaining the most are really damaging their own chances of enacting policy on any of their issues. Whether you are a Centrist concerned about the liberal Obama, or a leftist concerned about the centrist Obama, What are the chances that losing this election will help any of the causes you care about? If Obama is elected, there is a chance he will be with you, whoever you are. McCain will not.

Taking it a step further, What is the likelihood that the party, in defeat, will suddenly embrace your brand of Liberality? Defeat will merely widen the gaps in our coalition. And will the Republicans winning now in any way bring their party toward the center? No, it will continue its headlong drive out as far into right field as they can go. The foul line will be the new center. And that should concern us all.

Win. In winning, there is opportunity. In losing there is merely more empty arguments about what should have been, and in 4 more years the democrat will in truth be a Republican, and the Republican will be a Facist. Even more than you may think it already is that way.
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LWolf Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-25-08 08:02 AM
Response to Original message
192. You point out the real issue here.
There really is no reason to expect that dissent at any point, now or later, will ever change the march to the right.

The chances that the Democratic Party will swing to the left? Poor, regardless of what I do. Whether I ignore reality, drink the kool-aid, and start gushing about how good times are on their way if we just shut up and march with Obama, whether I hang in, dragging my feet, to slow the march to the right down a bit, or whether I throw up my hands and walk away.

I don't see being locked into the center-right, or marching further to the right, as a "win," regardless of who wins an election. The opportunity to "win" anything, was lost, imo, last January. The only thing left to accomplish is stalemate.

As someone who gave me a thoughtful response, I'd ask you for another.

Of those 3 choices, what should the party majority really hope I do? Walk away so they don't have to deal with someone pointing out party or candidate flaws? Pretend that they don't exist, thereby giving up the effort to create REAL, authentic change for the better? Or stay put and fight to keep the party honest?
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quakerboy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-25-08 12:09 PM
Response to Reply #192
234. I disagree with your assessment
I find your approach to be too fatalistic. Why is there no reason to expect that your dissent will change anything?

For myself, I ran into this choice very early on. Before, in fact, the major candidates were even out campaigning. In my view at that time, the democratic party was really fucked up. Pelosi and the hundred days had not taken care of any of the problems that were near and dear to me, and in fact Bush was continuing to get his policies passed with little or no resistance.

So I took myself to the logical ends of the situation. What are the choices in the end? Change has to happen, because the status quo is impossible to maintain. So the real question is how that change will happen. And I think it is a matter of either reform or revolution. While Revolution has its advantages, namely you can be active and really whip some change out in a hurry, it also has a cost. Given that we are dealing with the USA who waits all year to explode things for celebration, I think revolution here would be VERY high on the destructiveness scale. Reform is a lot harder work, given it has to be done over time, bit by bit, with lots of persuading and follow up.

Given that, it was an easy choice for me. I work to get the best nominee I think we can get elected, and then I work to keep that president honest, and at the same time work to push the center back where it belongs. Because that is the biggest change. The center of politics has been effected, and I think a large part of that has been the repeated republican winning. And frankly, I see some good signs in our country, along with the negative ones. And from the start, I have supported Obama, given that mindset, and despite the fact Kucinich is the only politician I would trust with my non-existant children. Back to what I said in my first post. Winning is a game changer. Especially repeated winning.

Personally, I would ask that you stay, and work with us to keep the party honest, but also temper that with the knowledge that while Winning without reform is useless, so is reform without winning the power to enact it. And then temper all of that with the fact that many people here are not just in favor of Obama, they are damnscared of what could happen if he loses. And that makes for some mighty prickly conversations if you want to get at the kernel of truth behind a topic. Of course, it makes great fun for those who just like to argue.
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LWolf Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-25-08 07:44 PM
Response to Reply #234
256. You are welcome to disagree, of course.
Why is there no reason to expect that my dissent will change anything?

Because it never has.
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quakerboy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-25-08 11:03 PM
Response to Reply #256
268. Never?
So everything it exactly as it always was? the 2008 is the same as 1950, which is the same as 1650, which is the same as it always was?

Nothing has changed? Because if it changed, someone changed it. Somehow.
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LWolf Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Aug-26-08 07:55 PM
Response to Reply #268
281. Things change. Change is constant. That's true.
We can't stop change; we can only hope to positively affect the direction of change. I don't think I've done that. I've been swimming against the tide of change my whole adult life.

At least, in the areas of most concern to me; those that I've been focused on.

I've noticed that often, when change moves from the ideal to the real, it's watered down until there's not much left but the rhetoric.

I'm thinking professionally. I now hear the terms, the language, the phrases, for many professional changes I've worked for, but what they look like in practice does not much resemble the original intent.

Does that count? Change that I help to affect, that evolves into new packaging for the same old thing when it reaches the mainstream?
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shayes51 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-24-08 07:57 PM
Response to Reply #12
159. good post
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endthewar Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-24-08 09:13 PM
Response to Reply #12
172. Who would you rather have as the nominee?
Or are you just trying to rain on other people's parade? :shrug:
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LWolf Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-25-08 08:16 AM
Response to Reply #172
193. It's a little late for that, lol.
It's been too late since last January.

There are many people I would rather see be the nominee. Of the original group, before 2 primaries and 2 caucuses left the two that never even appeared anywhere on my list standing, I would have taken any of them EXCEPT HRC or Obama.

There are others that didn't run. Basically, I'd like to see someone left of center. I'd like to see someone who will support a deep, wide, healthy separation of church and state by not bringing faith to the campaign or to office. I'd like to see someone who walks their talk. I'd like to see someone who puts people before corporations, the working class before the wealthy, peace before war.

It's too late for that. Until June, I hoped for a brokered convention that might allow someone like that to emerge. Too late for that now, too.

The only thing left to do has been to voice what I want to see in the platform, even if it differs from the nominee's plans. So I've done so. What are the chances that the platform will be affected? Probably nil. I fully expect a platform that reflects Obama, rather than a platform that reflects the wing of the party he's been at pains to distance himself from.

Still, things aren't as bad as they seem reading over what I wrote here. I think Biden is a positive for the ticket, even though I differ with him on some key issues.

The point here is that this thread demands that we unite or leave the board. I don't do anything on demand. My response is more about the bombastic demand than it is about Obama. If you'd like me to keep my dislike to myself, don't demand it, and it's more likely to happen.
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endthewar Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-25-08 08:31 AM
Response to Reply #193
199. Good points.
However, this board is viewed as one that supports getting the Dem nominee elected. If Kucinich had won the nomination, the same types of threads would be going out telling people to get on board with the Kucinich ticket.

For you, I think it might be best to focus on the long run. Right now, it would be nearly impossible to elect someone further to the left than Obama to the presidency. A lot of people view Obama becoming President as a stepping stone toward a more leftist candidate. If McCain wins, I guarantee you that the next Dem nominee will be further to the right than Obama. You should view this as a battle that can't be won in one election, but won over multiple elections.

Also, I think that a lot of the demands for people to get behind Obama are coming from people worried that McCain is gaining in the polls. It's much more of a hatred and fear of a McCain presidency than for a demand of support for Obama. Even if you don't like Obama's views, surely you would agree that he is much closer to your views that McCain, right?

Finally, I think that Obama has always been a politician for the middle class. He clearly views corporations as entities that owe a lot more to their communities than they are currently giving to them. Here's some vintage Obama footage from 5 years ago that might help to inspire you (a little bit) about his candidacy: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eQVRrqyqepU

:patriot:
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LWolf Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-25-08 08:43 AM
Response to Reply #199
206. Your points are not bad.
A belated welcome to DU.

This board supports getting the nominee elected; that's true. I don't think you accomplish that by demanding that people get in line. I think you accomplish a win by making sure that all of your allies have a place at the table.

That's an invitation, not a demand.

This board is also "one of the Web's most active left-wing discussion boards." Also:

"We welcome Democrats of all stripes, along with other progressives who will work with us to achieve our shared goals. While the vast majority of our visitors are Democrats, this web site is not affiliated with the Democratic Party, nor do we claim to speak for the party as a whole."

http://www.democraticunderground.com/about.html

The left has an obvious place at the DU table, as well. I have to disagree with anyone who thinks he might be a stepping stone to moving further left. Even HRC, whom I've never been a fan of, is further to the left on many issues than Obama.

It's not about DK, or anyone else that might have been the nominee. It's about the nominee's efforts to distance himself from the left, and what that means for his administration.

I want something more than to elect him. I want the left at the table once he is elected. I want him to make that as crystal clear as he has his determination to keep republicans, corporations, and faith at his table.

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truebrit71 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-25-08 08:36 AM
Response to Reply #12
203. You need a reason? John fucking McCain isn't enough of a reason?
Four more years of the horseshit we've had to stomach for the last 8 isn't ENOUGH of a reason?

Good grief... :eyes:
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LWolf Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-25-08 08:50 AM
Response to Reply #203
208. You obviously miss the point by a few light years.
McCain is not the point. Obama is not the point. The presidency is not the point.

The point is that you don't achieve party unity, or board unity, by demanding that people shut up, get in line, or leave.

That's the point. Get it, or don't. Your choice.
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truebrit71 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-25-08 09:30 AM
Response to Reply #208
216. I'm sorry but that is ENTIRELY the point...If you cannot/will not unify behind the nominee...
Edited on Mon Aug-25-08 09:33 AM by truebrit71
...you need to find a new party...we will have enough on our plates from the scumbags on the right...we don't have the time or the resources to wet-nurse those that feel hard-done by or "not reached-out-to enough"...The time for that cutesy bullshit was the primaries which are now OVER. It is time to get behind the nominee and move forward...

Get it or don't, your choice. But understand that if you work against the nominee you are doing the country and the party no favours...and you should seriously consider if you are in the right party...
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High Plains Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-25-08 10:48 AM
Response to Reply #216
227. Well, gee, maybe you're right.
Who needs the votes of leftists and progressives, anyway? There's always Nader or the Greens...

You probably don't win elections by inviting people to go elsewhere. Just saying.
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truebrit71 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-25-08 11:08 AM
Response to Reply #227
232. ...and you certainly don't win them when they say they're going elsewhere to begin with...
Edited on Mon Aug-25-08 11:15 AM by truebrit71
..look, I have had enough of all of this "Obama hasn't reached out to me enough" bullshit...I don't care which portion of the party is whining about it....the time for that happy horseshit is over. We are now down to the nitty-gritty...we get behind our nominee and support them to the hilt...if we don't then the unhappy, disguntled factions will have only themselves to blame if Five Plane McCain gets in the WH...

It's time for the whining to stop and for people to start acting like friggin' adults and get this deal done...We can hash out the "not progressive for me/too few ovaries for me" arguments AFTER we have won the WH....because if we can't achieve that one, single most important goal, then all of this complaining will amount to sweet fuck all, and the country will be done...

It's time to get in the Obama-Mobile, sit down, put your seat belts on, shut the fuck up about your own personal greivances and focus on taking back the WH....

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LWolf Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-25-08 08:15 PM
Response to Reply #216
263. Wow.
That's quite a rant.

Of course, I never said anything about working against the nominee.

So obviously, you are unable to grasp the point, which, again, has nothing to do with the nominee.

It has to do with DUers making aggressive demands to UNIFY!!!! or else.

Would you like to give another demonstration of the whole reason I replied to this thread to begin with, or have you gotten it out of your system yet?

Your post reminds me of what I would expect to find in an article entitled, "Don't Do This If You Expect To Bring People Together."
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muryan Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-25-08 08:55 AM
Response to Reply #12
211. Define right-centrist christian
Because in case you didn't know, there are christians on the left...and we don't mind our candidates talking about religion. As long as they make it abundantly clear that the wall of separation still exists, and Obama definitely has passed that test.

So explain
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LWolf Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-25-08 07:43 PM
Response to Reply #211
255. There are christians everywhere.
I would answer your question this way: Most people who define themselves as "left" in the U.S. aren't left. They are in the center. They only appear to the left because of the right-wing position the U.S. holds in the rest of the world.

Would you mind your candidate talking about religion if he practiced a non-judeo-christian faith?

What if your candidates were hindus, muslims, buddhists, pagans, or athiests? Would you be as accepting of them inserting their faith into every speech, and allowing their doctrine to influence national policy?

There are also christians who support the separation of church and state. Are you one of them?

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muryan Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-25-08 07:49 PM
Response to Reply #255
258. I'm not a person of faith
But I have no problem with Obama's. I think that might be your problem
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LWolf Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-25-08 08:16 PM
Response to Reply #258
264. No.
I have no problem with Obama having a faith. I have a problem with him making it public, using it for political gain, and I don't trust him not to allow it to influence policy.

I support a strong, deep, wide separation of church and state.

It's as simple as that.
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muryan Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Aug-26-08 04:15 PM
Response to Reply #264
280. You believe in electing people not-of-faith
Because you are concerned they will justify public decisions based on faith. Thats beyond the scope of separation of church and state
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LWolf Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Aug-26-08 08:02 PM
Response to Reply #280
282. No.
I don't have a problem electing people of faith. We're all people of faith, even those who have faith that there is nothing beyond what our senses can observe and measure.

I have a problem with using faith as a criteria to elect someone, on the part of voters. I have a problem with using faith to campaign, which is, to me, a kind of sacrilege. I have a problem with using faith to determine public policy.

While I realize that it's embedded in the doctrine of some faiths, I don't think faith should be about competing for, or "winning," souls. It's not a tournament or a war, imo, where your faith gains power by growing the number of followers or by putting your own into office. Faith should not be about power. I think that one of the most significant ways to show respect for faith is to allow people to make up their own minds, to follow their own spiritual path, without spiritual bullying or competition.

Putting faith into politics demeans it, again, imo. It takes the spiritual component out and leaves the dogma.

That's a long, windy way of saying quite simply: I think faith is a private thing, and, out of respect for all, should remain that way.
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Ichingcarpenter Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-24-08 04:39 PM
Response to Original message
14. "Well I dreamed I saw the knights in armour coming
"After the Gold Rush"

Neil Young Lyrics Analyis

( just helping to kick your thread)



"Well I dreamed I saw the knights in armour coming
Saying something about a queen
There were peasants singing and
drummers drumming
And the archer split the tree
There was a fanfare blowing
to the sun
That was floating on the breeze"

"I was lying in a burned out basement
with the full moon in my eyes
I was hoping for replacement
When the sun burst thru the sky
There was a band playing in my head
and I felt like getting high
(big cheer here)
I was thinking about what a
friend had said
I was hoping it was a lie"

"Well I dreamed I saw the silver
space ships flying
In the yellow haze of the sun
There were children crying
and colors flying
All around the chosen ones
All in a dream, all in a dream
The loading had begun
All in a dream, all in a dream
The loading had begun
They were flying Mother Nature's
silver seed to a new home in the sun"
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cornermouse Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-24-08 04:55 PM
Response to Reply #14
25. I think One Tin Soldier is probably more appropriate.
Edited on Sun Aug-24-08 04:58 PM by cornermouse
More reality based as well.
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Ichingcarpenter Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-24-08 05:10 PM
Response to Reply #25
31. Well, it was the only spaceship song I could think of
I think I like Lennon's song better for this thread.

'm sick and tired of hearing
things
from uptight-short sighted-
narrow minded hypocritics

all i want is the truth
just give me some truth

i've had enough of reading
things
by nuerotic-pyschotic-
pig headed politicians

all i want is the truth
just give me some truth

no short haired-yellow bellied
son of tricky dicky
is gonna mother hubbard
soft soap me
with just a pocketful of hope
money for dope
money for rope

i'm sick to death of seeing
things
from tight lipped-
condescending -mommies little
chauvinists


all i want is the truth
just give me some truth

i've had enough of watching
scenes
of schizophrenic - ego - centric
- paranoic - prima - donnas


all i want is the truth

just give me some truth

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cornermouse Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-24-08 05:16 PM
Response to Reply #31
33. Yep. That pretty much covers it.
Listen children to a story that was written long ago
'bout a kingdom on a mountain and the valley folk below.
On the mountain was a treasure buried deep beneath a stone,
and the valley people swore they'd have it for their very own.

Go ahead and hate your neighbor, go ahead and cheat a friend.
Do it in the name of heaven, justify it in the end.
There won't be any trumpets blowin' come the judgment day
on the bloody morning after one tin soldier rides away.

So the people of the valley sent a message up the hill
asking for the buried treasure, tons of gold for which they'd kill.
Came an answer from the kingdom: "With our brothers we will share
all the secrets of our mountain, all the riches buried there."

Go ahead and hate your neighbor, go ahead and cheat a friend.
Do it in the name of heaven, justify it in the end.
There won't be any trumpets blowin' come the judgment day
on the bloody morning after one tin soldier rides away.

Now the valley cried with anger; mount your horses, draw your sword,
and they killed the mountain people, so they won their just reward.
Now they stood beside the treasure on the mountain, dark and red,
turned the stone and looked beneath it. "Peace on earth" was all it said.

Go ahead and hate your neighbor, go ahead and cheat a friend.
Do it in the name of heaven, justify it in the end.
There won't be any trumpets blowin' come the judgment day
on the bloody morning after one tin soldier rides away.
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nc4bo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-24-08 04:43 PM
Response to Original message
15. R'ing only over 24 hours old. boo. enough is a fracking 'nuff already. nt
Edited on Sun Aug-24-08 04:43 PM by nc4bo
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Debi Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-24-08 04:44 PM
Response to Original message
16. No kidding!!
:bounce:


Go OBiden!!
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BlooInBloo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-24-08 04:48 PM
Response to Original message
18. The mothership has arrived!
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americanstranger Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-24-08 04:50 PM
Response to Reply #18
20. Driven by a Clinton, so less.
:rofl:

- as
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Tutonic Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-24-08 04:51 PM
Response to Reply #18
21. Yeah and HRC is at the wheel baby! Flashlight, Neon Lights
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Two Americas Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-24-08 04:49 PM
Response to Original message
19. bitching and moaning
If we are going to see any and all critics of anything about the party as enemies, to be bullied into silence, that will do more damage to the prospects for success by the party than anything else could possibly do.
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Catchawave Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-25-08 10:08 AM
Response to Reply #19
218. ~1980~ Redux?
LOL, they were beating the Unity Pony pretty hard then too and we got 8 years of Reaganomics :)

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fujiyama Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-24-08 04:54 PM
Response to Original message
22. Gotta agree
What's even more annoying is few of them had good suggestions. The VP is Obama's choice. He wanted someone who had the smarts and the integrity to question and challenge him. Biden can do that they win and for now, he can be an effective attack dog. I'm glad he chose Biden over Bayh, Sebelius, Kaine, etc. because he actually has foreign policy experience.

No Biden isn't perfect. I personally can't forgive his push for that bankruptcy "reform" legislation, but worrying about all that is a freakin' luxury now (after all, it's not as though McCain or any other republican opposed the legislation - they enthusiastically supported it). We have to win first to govern.
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Zhade Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-24-08 04:55 PM
Response to Original message
23. *snort*
NT!

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TexasObserver Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-24-08 04:56 PM
Response to Original message
26. Yes! This is the only way to win elections. Unity is required of Democrats.
Edited on Sun Aug-24-08 04:57 PM by TexasObserver
We're a big tent, but it's time to tell people to get in or get out!!

Anyone not behind Obama-Biden at this point is NOT a Democrat.
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cornermouse Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-24-08 05:03 PM
Response to Reply #26
28. Right!
The time to think has already come and gone. And if you weren't thinking earlier, well it's too late now.
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Andrea Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-24-08 05:31 PM
Response to Reply #28
36. Exactly!
You've got it, Cornermouse.

If we're lucky, in 2012 the Party will take care of all this for us and no thinking will be required at all.
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Starry Messenger Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-24-08 05:32 PM
Response to Reply #36
37. Didn't you guys start your own website or something?
MPK
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Andrea Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-24-08 05:35 PM
Response to Reply #37
38. Shh! Don't tell anyone.
I'm trying to keep that "thinking" side of myself under wraps. It's shameful.
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Starry Messenger Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-24-08 05:37 PM
Response to Reply #38
40. You're doing beautifully.
MPK
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Andrea Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-24-08 05:39 PM
Response to Reply #40
41. Thanks!
:hi: :pals:
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Arnold Judas Rimmer Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-24-08 05:54 PM
Response to Reply #36
51. In 2012, we will either have an incumbent President, and won't need a primary
Or we will be in a total dictatorship, (or all dead) and it won't matter. :(
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Andrea Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-24-08 05:57 PM
Response to Reply #51
54. You're right.
I should have said 2016, but I was getting a little excited about the prospect.
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DevonRex Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-24-08 05:59 PM
Response to Reply #54
57. Oh cut the bullshit. nt
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BlooInBloo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-24-08 06:19 PM
Response to Reply #54
75. Good save!
not.
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TexasObserver Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-24-08 06:04 PM
Response to Reply #36
64. The party will take care of this right now.
By the end of the week, any phony Democrats who are merely posing will be driven from the party convention and structure. And good riddance to them.

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cornermouse Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-24-08 06:16 PM
Response to Reply #64
71. When did DU become the democratic party
Edited on Sun Aug-24-08 06:18 PM by cornermouse
rather than a website that was devoted to reaching out and bringing voters in to the democratic party? Or do you remember that?
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TexasObserver Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-24-08 06:44 PM
Response to Reply #71
104. Supporting the Democratic nominee is part of the DU requirements.
Edited on Sun Aug-24-08 06:44 PM by TexasObserver
We weren't talking about that, though. We were talking about the whiners who will either get on board at the convention or be driven from the party.

As for here, the DU site owners are free to interpret their rules as they wish. I doubt anyone here is still trying to figure out if they're really a Democrat or a Republican. This isn't about recruitment, it's about forging as much unity as possible, identifying voters, and getting them to the polls. I realize none of that concerns you, but for those of us who are Democrats and are committed to stopping another 4 years of Republican reign of terror, it matters.

Unlike you, I've spent a lifetime devoted to the party, and I have no reservations about getting behind the party after the convention, and insisting that others who claim to be on the team do so.
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cornermouse Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-24-08 06:56 PM
Response to Reply #104
114. I've only voted democratic for the last 24 years.
It may not be a fact that I can prove to your satisfaction but it's still true. By the way, I appreciate the fact that you have chosen not to throw around some of the perjoratives that became so popular and which were, in fact, a large part of making DU unendurable and driving me away from DU to another democratic website.
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CreekDog Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-24-08 07:18 PM
Response to Reply #114
136. DU SHOULD BE unendurable for folks who don't support the nominee
you are onto something there! :rofl:
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scarletwoman Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-24-08 07:38 PM
Response to Reply #136
153. Hear! Hear! I can't see who you were replying to, because I have whoever it is on ignore.
After years of NEVER using the ignore feature I finally broke down and started using it after the primaries were over. I just couldn't stand all the whining.

I'm an old leftist, I KNOW the Democratic party ISN'T a leftist party. I learned long ago not to expect it to be. I also figured out that electoral politics is the enemy of progressivism. If you want to start a progressive movement, it has to be done from the ground -- outside of electoral politics.

The reason the American Left is moribund is because it's allowed itself to be co-opted by the Democratic party and electoral politics. And then all the lefties bitch and moan that the Dems aren't paying attention to them. Well, duh.

I work to elect Democrats because they generally do less damage than Republicans. But that's all I want or expect from them, I DON'T expect them to overturn the status quo. That has to happen on the streets among the people, it has nothing to do with elections.

As far as I'm concerned, any self-proclaimed lefties/progressives who want to keep pissing and moaning about political candidates are barking up the wrong tree. Go out there and organize a movement -- and in the meantime, help elect a Democratic president. They are two different realms, stop expecting one realm to solve all the problems. Render unto Ceasar, and all that...

sw
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CreekDog Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-24-08 07:43 PM
Response to Reply #153
155. The Democratic party can only be as good as the majority of Americans willing to vote for them
Edited on Sun Aug-24-08 07:44 PM by CreekDog
the "perfect" progressive party could appear tomorrow, but it would lose, because there aren't enough people to vote for it and make it win elections.

sorry folks.
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scarletwoman Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-24-08 07:47 PM
Response to Reply #155
156. Exactly. If you want a "progressive" party, you have to start on the ground by changing how people
perceive the world. Organize, educate -- if you don't have an electorate ready to support your issues, you certainly won't get candidates to support those issues.

sw
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nadinbrzezinski Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Aug-26-08 02:47 PM
Response to Reply #156
278. You mean like oh World Class public Education?
Or Single Payer Health Care?

I am sure those two are NOT issues that the people support since oh... they are damn lefty and progressive!

PHEW, thanks for making this clear to me

:sarcasm:
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barack the house Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-24-08 07:13 PM
Response to Reply #104
132. As Hillary has also shown herself to be a fine team player to be proud of. True class.
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MaraJade Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-24-08 09:13 PM
Response to Reply #64
173. So dissenters will be phonies. . .
Most interesting. We must all walk in absolute lockstep with no questions asked
at all, or we are phonies.

. . .Something that makes one go HMMMM. . .
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mkultra Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-24-08 09:54 PM
Response to Reply #173
185. well, there is some truth to what you say
no freeper would be allowed to spew here nor would any disruptor or troll.

Thus, if you don't support the current democratic nominee, eventually you will probably cross somebodies line.


Either the party moved or you did, either way, there is air between you.
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cornermouse Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-24-08 06:22 PM
Response to Reply #36
81. Yep.
Exactly.
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TexasObserver Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-24-08 06:02 PM
Response to Reply #28
61. That is correct.
The time for hemming, and hawing, and equivocating, and pissing, and moaning is past.

This is the time to beat the GOP in the general election. It is not the time for us to stop everything to listen to the chronic whiners wail further about everything not perfect in our party and our candidates.

It's simple. Get behind the ticket and attack the GOP. Which part of that do you refuse to understand?
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LanternWaste Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-25-08 10:19 AM
Response to Reply #26
225. Unity needs to be earned rather than demanded
"Unity is required of Democrats."

True. However I believe that our unity needs to be earned rather than demanded by some buckaroo on a message board.
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Andrea Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-24-08 05:05 PM
Response to Original message
29. BRAVO!!!
WTF is wrong with these people, thinking they can think and even say what they are thinking? Didn't the FISA vote make it perfectly clear what our stance is on this BS? Now shut up and get in line!
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DevonRex Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-24-08 05:37 PM
Response to Reply #29
39. This is a forum that supports the democratic nominee. If you don't
support the democratic ticket you have no good reason to post here. I'm quite sure there is another place you prefer to be anyway. :shrug:
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Andrea Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-24-08 05:40 PM
Response to Reply #39
42. I said nothing of the kind.
Please read my post again. You're going off on a tangent here.
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DevonRex Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-24-08 05:45 PM
Response to Reply #42
46. Andrea, unfortunately the link in your sig line led me to your post
Edited on Sun Aug-24-08 05:46 PM by JenniferZ
on OldElmTree, regarding THIS thread on DU. So you might as well stop trying to fool people.

Personally, I don't care what you say. But out of curiosity I did click on the link. It was a real eye opener and you have nobody to blame but yourself.
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nc4bo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-24-08 05:51 PM
Response to Reply #46
47. Now ain't *that* something, right there. Thanks for outing JenniferZ.
some of us haven't been around as long as others and we're slowly figuring out who's who and what's what w/some of these people.

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DevonRex Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-24-08 05:54 PM
Response to Reply #47
52. Funny but I never knew there was such a site. And what a
shock it was.

See the thread below.
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Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-24-08 06:05 PM
Response to Reply #47
65. Deleted message
Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.
 
Andrea Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-24-08 05:59 PM
Response to Reply #46
56. If you think I'm trying to fool people, you really don't get it.
Thanks for visiting!


:hi:
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DevonRex Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-24-08 06:03 PM
Response to Reply #56
62. You're welcome. And I really *do* get it. Anyone who read
your posts over there and then read your posts here would have no doubt about your intentions.

I won't be going back there. Once was more than enough. And I don't want to know who else might occasionally post on that site.
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Arnold Judas Rimmer Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-24-08 06:24 PM
Response to Reply #46
84. So that IS another KittyCult site then?
Funny how some people have tried to say it was a "liberal" site.

Old Elm Tree, huh? Please someone tell me that's not a lynching reference. So many racists in the kittycult, you never know anymore. :(
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DevonRex Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-24-08 06:26 PM
Response to Reply #84
87. All I know is that Andrea is laughing about disrupting here nad
maybe having to create a new ID if DU catches on, yada yada yada.

See the thread below.
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cornermouse Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-24-08 06:34 PM
Response to Reply #87
95. You've got your facts wrong again.
Edited on Sun Aug-24-08 06:35 PM by cornermouse
Andrea said no such thing.
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DevonRex Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-24-08 06:50 PM
Response to Reply #95
108. See post #49. She says a lot. nt
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cornermouse Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-24-08 06:52 PM
Response to Reply #108
110. Jennifer.
There is a box that didn't transfer when you copied and pasted. I checked. Andrea really did not say what you're accusing her of.
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DevonRex Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-24-08 07:06 PM
Response to Reply #110
126. All I know is that I will never go there again. Not in a million years.
That thread was awful. There were 2 people going back and forth laughing about posting in this thread, proud of being coy, scared of being banned. Loving every minute of disrupting here.

It was a real eye opener. I hadn't really known what to think of the rumors about PUMAs and stuff. Now, unfortunately, I do.

I had not wanted to believe that any existed on this board. We're all supposed to be democrats here. Now I know for a fact that there ARE people who post on this board with ulterior motives.

I have tried very, very hard not to be divisive, to take the feelings of past Clinton supporters into account. Now I honestly don't know if it was worth it. Was I duped? Perhaps. And that is the sad part.
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cornermouse Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-24-08 07:13 PM
Response to Reply #126
131. That's one way to avoid admitting when you're wrong.
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Andrea Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-24-08 07:21 PM
Response to Reply #126
139. If you knew anything about me,
you'd know the last thing I am is a PUMA.

Not a Hillary supporter, never was. I do support the PUMAs' right of free speech, just like I support your's and the Kucinich folks and the McCain supporters and the people who don't care about politics.

It's probably before your time, but there was a time when Democrats, real Democrats, supported the Bill of Rights.
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Arnold Judas Rimmer Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-24-08 08:52 PM
Response to Reply #139
169. "but there was a time when Democrats, real Democrats, supported the Bill of Rights."
Indeed there was. But that was before the DLC, the fake "Democrats" enabled Herr Chimperor to feed the Constitution into a shredder. :(
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Andrea Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-24-08 09:50 PM
Response to Reply #169
184. We agree on that
It's unforgivable the way the Democratic party leaders have enabled W to destroy this country.
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Catchawave Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-25-08 10:50 AM
Response to Reply #126
228. Old Elm Tree was created by Edwards supporters
where did you get PUMA from?

I'm a member over there because I do enjoy free debate and using my brain cells every now and then.

Everybody is welcomed with true Progressive Democratic Open Arms. :hi:
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DevonRex Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-25-08 06:11 PM
Response to Reply #228
252. Hi catchawave! That sounds good. But cross posting and
encouraging folks to come to this thread, talking about probably getting banned, signing up under a new name, being deliberately vague to create discord is not cool. Talking about using a member here to keep the disruption going is also not cool.

I wouldn't have known had I not clicked on the link in the signature line. I didn't go searching around for somebody named Andrea and somebody named LWolf (or is it CDirt)?

For the record, I don't have a problem with folks who disagree with me. I do have a problem with folks who aren't honest about their positions.

To me, PUMA is a group of people who want to create disunity. And the behavior shown in #49 is clearly intended to create disunity. I don't go there and disrupt. I would never be so dishonest as to do that. Because other people's right to assemble and discuss is important to me. But you know what, so is MY right to come here for good, honest discussion and not have to wade around folks who have no intention of supporting the democratic ticket and who only want to stop OTHER people from having free speech.
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Catchawave Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-25-08 06:36 PM
Response to Reply #252
253. No problem
Your facts were wrong, I just corrected them. You obviously didn't read the site, there are good people over there who discuss everything Democratic and they own their votes. PUMA is another movement, and even they aren't as evil as you portray them to be. They own their votes too :toast:

If you have no problem with people disagreeing with you, why are you labeling them ? Debate the topic :D

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TBF Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Aug-26-08 02:07 PM
Response to Reply #252
274. Jennifer, some of us have been Obama supporters as well. I've had
alot of trouble agreeing with him since FISA, but of all things that doesn't mean I'm going to vote Republican. I think about third-party voting (which I'm not sure I could even do because Nader and McKinney couldn't get the signatures to get on the ballot in Texas), and I enjoy the postings of the far leftists who think revolution is the only way out of this mess. You are still with Obama 100%, and that is great, but some of us need to talk it out a bit. It doesn't mean we won't pull the lever for him come November, but it does mean we are conflicted. We choose not to do that talking here out of respect for the party.

Well, anyway, I just wanted to defend OET a bit because it really is a mix of people. I can understand you having no interest in it, but I wanted to present my view as well.
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nadinbrzezinski Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Aug-26-08 02:30 PM
Response to Reply #252
276. You know what this reminds me off? PUMA= FEAR as far as you are concerned
fear that somebody else may have a point and you, yes YOU do not want to listen to any other point of view.. especially when now you conflate people in this way.

That is disruption to you... asking questions and holding politicos feet to the fire?

Well dearie, democracy ain't a spectator sport... it is more akin to sausage making

There is more... what you want is purity of thought.

That my dear is closer to movements such as the Cultural Revolution or the Summer of 1918 in the newly formed workers paradise, or for that matter the fall of 1938 Germany.

In other words, if I need to translate this... here lie the seeds of authoritarian government and pure thinking

You sure you want to take that road? I am not... and if this is where this country is going, then dark days lie ahead of us (they do, but so far for other reasons)

By the by... I am sure the party is not taking this road... only the very low level operatives, that think they know better, are quite politically naive and truly are driven by fear... and who in the end really do not matter... except that they may unwillingly suppress votes... you sure you want the lefties you despise to stay home in November? You positive of that?

By the way... at one time people on this site were more open to clear and free discussion... then came the kids... who are not mature enough to have an honest discussion... yes that shit started this year... and the place (in its calls for ahem purity) reminds me of ... drum roll, free republic more and more.

And by the way, if the party policy is to send the left to hell... good luck getting elected

But, but....

But the reality is the Dems need the left, as much as the GOP needs the christian right... unless we are seeing another change in the party faces, and the Dems are going back to their status quo support of the civil war, or for that matter the 1880s... read some history, labor and other progressive forces didn't have a place at the table... tell me... how well did that work for the common man and woman?

The only reason this party became as progressive as it did, by the way... was the granger movement and the Commie victories in 1932...

Learn your damn history... might help.

I know mine and at this point I am starting to wonder how long until history repeats itself? (and I hope in a good way... not the Mary Antoinette way)
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Starry Messenger Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-24-08 06:35 PM
Response to Reply #84
96. I think it was started by Edwards supporters.
But it's, uh, morphing.

MPK
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Andrea Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-24-08 07:17 PM
Response to Reply #84
135. Way to smear something you know nothing about.
The shear inaccuracies in your remark will serve to undermine your despicable racist reference.
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Two Americas Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-25-08 02:33 PM
Response to Reply #84
245. our cherished symbol of freedom
The old elm tree, for those with even a passing knowledge of America history, has been cherished as a symbol of liberty for centuries.

Before the Revolution, colonists gathered under a great elm tree in Boston to rally together against the tyranny of the crown corporations. The Sons of Liberty hung the effigies of two tax collectors from the old elm tree in protest against the infamous Stamp Act. Ever since then, the old elm tree was called the Liberty Tree and became a focal point and symbol for the resistance to the tyranny of the crown corporations over the colonies.



The Liberty Tree (1646-1775) was a famous elm tree that stood in the commons of Boston, Massachusetts Colony, in the days before the American Revolution. The tree was a rallying point for the growing resistance to the rule of England over the American colonies. In the years that followed, almost every American town had its own Liberty Tree. This is a photograph of the last surviving of the original Liberty Trees. It was located on the campus of St. John's College in Annapolis, Maryland and was destroyed in 1999 by hurricane Floyd.

http://speakingoffaith.publicradio.org/programs/democra...


Opponents to the expansion of the slave power in the 1850's used the symbol of the elm tree, and many chapters of the new Republican party were started in meetings under elm trees. For example, near Onondaga County's Republican headquarters, under an elm tree, stood a bronze plaque for almost a century. It commemorated the party's founding in 1854 on that spot.

Thomas Paine, author of The Rights of Man and the pamphlet Common Sense, published the poem "Liberty Tree" in July 1775.

Liberty Tree

In a chariot of light from the regions of day,
The Goddess of Liberty came;
Ten thousand celestials directed the way,
And hither conducted the dame,
This fair budding branch, from the garden above,
Where millions with millions agree;
She bro't in her hand, as a pledge of her love,
The plant she call'd Liberty Tree.

This celestial exotic struck deep in the ground,
Like a native it flourish'd and bore;
The fame of its fruit, drew the nations around,
To seek out its peaceable shore.
Unmindful of names or distinction they came,
For freemen like brothers agree:
With one spirit endow'd, they one friendship pursued.
And their temple was Liberty Tree.

But hear, O ye swains ('tis a tale most profane),
How all the tyrannical powers,
King, Commons, and Lords, are uniting amain,
To cut down this guardian of ours;
From the east to the west, blow the trumpet to arms,
Thro' the land let the sound of it flee,
Let the far and the nearall unite with a cheer,
In defense of our Liberty Tree.

Why did old trees become symbols of liberty and freedom? Why New England? Why Deacon Elliott's elm tree in particular? Part of the answer, no longer obvious today, may be found in the appearance of a mature American elm tree. Before the twentieth century, when Dutch elm disease ravaged this species, an ancient elm was an inspiring sight. Its limbs soared upward in long sweeping curves, like the tracery of a Gothic cathedral. A massive trunk and gnarled bark made it a symbol of great age. Elms were thought to be more durable than most mortal things. London Bridge was built of elmwood that was thought to last a thousand years.

Liberty and Freedom, by David Hackett Fischer, p. 24


In recent years, the stately elms that were once found in their millions around the country, have been ravaged by disease and almost disappeared.


Unfortunately, it is not only the old elm tree, our cherished symbol of freedom that is diseased and in grave danger of disappearing, but rather freedom itself.

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TexasObserver Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-24-08 06:50 PM
Response to Reply #46
109. some of these folks aren't even subtle about their schemes
It's pretty obvious we have a group of posters remaining who are not committed to the ticket at all, and are here solely to fulfill their compulsion to complain about all things Democratic.
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Two Americas Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-25-08 02:42 PM
Response to Reply #109
248. most of the people you are smearing
Most of the people you are smearing have worked for the party for 20, 30, or 40 years, in the trenches and in good times and bad, and are veterans of progressive causes and have paid the price in various ways including spending time in jail for their beliefs. They stand oin stark contrast to the new crop of true blue Dem loyalists, who seem to think that shouting down dissent and engaging in character assassination and pack behavior to destroy opponents are consistent with the principles of the Democratic party.

"All things Democratic" is certainly not what it once was. You are asking - demanding - that people support "a few things vaguely Democratic, mixed in with some very authoritarian and reactionary things" and then attacking anyone who is still actually fighting for "all things Democratic."
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Andrea Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-25-08 05:21 PM
Response to Reply #248
249. Wonderful summary, TA
You nailed it.
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DevonRex Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-24-08 05:53 PM
Response to Reply #42
49. And here's that thread on OldElmTree:
CDirt
Newbie

Posts: 25


If you don't blow the nominee or the VP, get out!!! (DU Thread)
on: Today at 02:42:30 PM

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

If you're a leftist, liberal or even slitghtly left and don't agree with the positons on the ticket, the Democratic party wants nothing to do with you.

Unite under Obama/Biden or get on the mothership and leave

http://www.democraticunde...l&address=132x6714941

Logged



Andrea
Administrator
Hero Member

Posts: 1857


To thine own self be true.


Re: If you don't blow the nominee or the VP, get out!!! (DU Thread)
Reply #1 on: Today at 03:06:33 PM

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

That's abysmal. Check out my response.

Logged

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

To thine own self be true.


CDirt
Newbie

Posts: 25


Re: If you don't blow the nominee or the VP, get out!!! (DU Thread)
Reply #2 on: Today at 03:10:10 PM

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Quote from: Andrea on Today at 03:06:33 PM
That's abysmal. Check out my response.

LOL

They gonna fraag and flag the crap out of that one.

I may return there after a while. Too many people know who I am and my ID over there. Enough for them to troll me to other sites and flag my posts as well.

I'll allow a cooling off period for a time. If I get too antsy I may make another ID.

Logged



Andrea
Administrator
Hero Member

Posts: 1857


To thine own self be true.


Re: If you don't blow the nominee or the VP, get out!!! (DU Thread)
Reply #3 on: Today at 03:10:53 PM

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Quote from: CDirt on Today at 03:10:10 PM
Quote from: Andrea on Today at 03:06:33 PM
That's abysmal. Check out my response.

LOL

They gonna fraag and flag the crap out of that one.

I may return there after a while. Too many people know who I am and my ID over there. Enough for them to troll me to other sites and flag my posts as well.

I'll allow a cooling off period for a time. If I get too antsy I may make another ID.


Good strategery!

Logged

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

To thine own self be true.


CDirt
Newbie

Posts: 25


Re: If you don't blow the nominee or the VP, get out!!! (DU Thread)
Reply #4 on: Today at 03:39:08 PM

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Quote from: Andrea on Today at 03:10:53 PM
Quote from: CDirt on Today at 03:10:10 PM
Quote from: Andrea on Today at 03:06:33 PM
That's abysmal. Check out my response.

LOL

They gonna fraag and flag the crap out of that one.

I may return there after a while. Too many people know who I am and my ID over there. Enough for them to troll me to other sites and flag my posts as well.

I'll allow a cooling off period for a time. If I get too antsy I may make another ID.


Good strategery!


Your posts on that thread are freakin hilarious. I like that they have that slight touch of subtelty to turn their screws.

Logged



Andrea
Administrator
Hero Member

Posts: 1857


To thine own self be true.


Re: If you don't blow the nominee or the VP, get out!!! (DU Thread)
Reply #5 on: Today at 03:42:13 PM

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Thank you. I enjoy doing that. I like to make them think, "Wait a minute - what did she say?"

I'm afraid I might get banned this time, but I always think that. Cornermouse and MPK are in there helping me now.

Logged

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

To thine own self be true.


Andrea
Administrator
Hero Member

Posts: 1857


To thine own self be true.


Re: If you don't blow the nominee or the VP, get out!!! (DU Thread)
Reply #6 on: Today at 03:46:15 PM

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Of course, MPK doesn't realize she's helping me.

Logged

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

To thine own self be true.


Pages: <1>


So, Andrea, what were you saying? Hmmm??????????????????
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Starry Messenger Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-24-08 05:54 PM
Response to Reply #49
50. Oh, I'm helping alright.
MPK
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DevonRex Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-24-08 05:58 PM
Response to Reply #50
55. Pretty awful, huh? nt
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Starry Messenger Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-24-08 06:00 PM
Response to Reply #55
58. Those burnboards drive me nuts.
It's like high school.

MPK
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DevonRex Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-24-08 06:05 PM
Response to Reply #58
66. I really, really regret clicking on her link. It has a pleasant name
and I thought it was some sort of, I don't know, maybe an arts and crafts site or something.

Next time I'll ask folks here if they know what a link is to before I click.

I'm sorry you were dragged into that mess. It was shameful.
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Andrea Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-24-08 06:10 PM
Response to Reply #66
69. Good thinking.
God knows what kind of cesspool you might be dragged into. You might even be exposed to alternate views.
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Arnold Judas Rimmer Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-24-08 06:44 PM
Response to Reply #69
105. We have been exposed to your "alternate" (DLC) views since 1992
And we're rejecting them. :)
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Andrea Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-24-08 07:26 PM
Response to Reply #105
142. Ha! Good one!
Me, DLC? :rofl:
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Andrea Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-24-08 06:08 PM
Response to Reply #49
67. I'm so ashamed
I can't believe you posted that after I said upthread I was trying to keep the "thinking" part of me under wraps. Way to kick me when I'm down. :-(
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Starry Messenger Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-24-08 06:09 PM
Response to Reply #67
68. You're welcome.
MPK
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Arnold Judas Rimmer Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-24-08 06:28 PM
Response to Reply #49
90. The nerve of these DLC intern shit for brains, calling themselves "Liberals"
And yes, most of the now tombstoned Hillbots were DLC operatives who first came here to disrupt the Dean campaign.

You can take that to the bank.
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Andrea Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-25-08 05:23 PM
Response to Reply #90
250. Yep
And they worked unpaid for four years in the anticipation of being needed now.
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DainBramaged Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-24-08 07:08 PM
Response to Reply #49
127. It seems I have been atracktingkin all kinds of Freepers lately
I iz proud to beez a Freepers magnet hears, maybe we can exterminate the whole nest now.

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polmaven Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-24-08 06:19 PM
Response to Reply #42
76. Surprise, Surprise!
!!!!
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CreekDog Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-24-08 07:22 PM
Response to Reply #42
140. Andrea, you aren't ready to vote for Obama I see
Andrea
Administrator
Hero Member
*****
Posts: 1866



Re: obama is a natural-born sadist
Reply #11 on: August 22, 2008, 07:34:03 PM
I like Biden, too, but there is a danger with that. If Obama picks Biden, it is possible that it will be what it takes to convince me to vote for him. On the other hand, if Biden gets on board too much, it could end up making me dislike Biden.
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Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-24-08 07:30 PM
Response to Reply #140
145. Deleted message
Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.
 
CreekDog Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-24-08 07:32 PM
Response to Reply #145
150. Obama is not a Republican
or didn't you notice one of the most liberal voting records in the Senate?
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Andrea Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-24-08 07:50 PM
Original message
You are just trying to bait me into getting tombstoned
You know I can't sit here and list all the myriad of issues on which he has come out as hard right since being declared the presumptive nominee without being tombstoned. Kudos to you for a clever ploy. Here's a hint, though, just think back on all the issues you've had to turn yourself into a pretzel on in the last few months.

Or, just go somewhere where you can read facts instead of cheerleading.
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CreekDog Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-24-08 09:19 PM
Response to Original message
176. only you can get yourself tombstoned
you already said Obama was a Republican. don't blame me if that gets you tombstoned.

grow up and take responsibility for your own actions.
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LowerManhattanite Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Aug-26-08 02:52 PM
Response to Reply #176
279. 
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Andrea Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-24-08 07:50 PM
Response to Reply #150
158. Self-delete - Accidentally hit the button twice.
Edited on Sun Aug-24-08 07:53 PM by Andrea
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CreekDog Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-24-08 09:23 PM
Response to Reply #158
178. you could have used your second response to admit Obama is a Democrat and not a Republican
but you had your chance.

don't blame me when this catches up with you, this is your responsibility.
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barack the house Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-24-08 07:16 PM
Response to Reply #39
133. Exactly it isn't bullying it's like saying pro obama folk can post on hillary sites. Not the case.
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MaraJade Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-24-08 09:17 PM
Response to Reply #39
175. Turn your brain to "off". . .
and stop all of the useless thinking and wondering about things. Above all
ask no questions. Ignore that man behind the curtain.
Get on the bus, or get out.

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polmaven Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-24-08 06:18 PM
Response to Reply #29
73. Absolutely right!
Why can't we all be united and bash Hillary together? It is the right thing to do!
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CreekDog Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-24-08 07:28 PM
Response to Reply #73
143. this isn't about Hillary it's about folks...
playing games with the rest of us.
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polmaven Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-24-08 08:21 PM
Response to Reply #143
164. Been around much lately?
If a Hillary supporter defends her against charges of "not working hard enough"; her support is only luke warm"; "she wants him to lose so she can have a wide open field in 2012"; "she ran the nastiest campaign in history"; "if he loses the blame will be 100% on her".... and on and on and on, then we are accused of being PUMA, trolls, republicans and racists.

Our support of Senator Obama is not part of the equation regarding those accusations.

So yes, it is about Hillary. With some - a handful, admittedly, - it is ALWAYS about Hillary.
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CreekDog Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-24-08 09:22 PM
Response to Reply #164
177. yes, and if you ask a hard question you get told: "you are trying to get me tombstoned"
instead of an answer.

if you support Obama, great. if not, then don't pretend you do.

another poster just called Obama a Republican and when I pointed out to her that he is a Democrat and a liberal one at that, she said I was "baiting her" to get her "tombstoned".

that's been the reality around here for months, though only among a small number of posters, they always seem to be around enough to make themselves very noticed.
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Starry Messenger Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-24-08 09:28 PM
Response to Reply #177
179. No kidding.
The passive/agressive b.s from a few is getting pretty old. Hint to disruptors: google works great. If you are posting with the same username everywhere...well. It's on you, not us.

MPK
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Andrea Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-25-08 05:26 PM
Response to Reply #177
251. You really think that was a hard question?
I hope your school grades on the curve.
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Az_lefty Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-24-08 05:42 PM
Response to Original message
44. Well said...
:toast:

BTW...I was at a resort in Phoenix this weekend. Not a single McCain bumper sticker, but I did see several Obama stickers.
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jillan Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-24-08 05:45 PM
Response to Original message
45. I was a Hillary supporter, and was heartbroken when she dropped out BUT
Obama is our nominee and I am certain that Hillary will play an important role in an Obama administration.

If people would rather have 4 more years of this administration in hopes that Hillary will run again and win in 2012 - well - that is your choice. But it is time for the Dems to unite and win this thing.

As for me - I AM FIRED UP and Ready to go!
Obama/Biden - woohooo!!!!!!
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JI7 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-24-08 05:53 PM
Response to Reply #45
48. not really, you were a Biden supporter
and only supported Hillary over Obama. you weren't as supportive of OBama when he was the presumed nominee, would you be as supportive if Obama had picked osmeone other than Biden or Hillary for vp ?
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LynneSin Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-24-08 05:56 PM
Response to Reply #48
53. I've gotten to know piranha pretty well and I can resoundlingly say 'yes'
I don't think we need to go further than that.
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Andrea Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-24-08 06:04 PM
Response to Reply #48
63. Good question
And if s/he had actually supported someone other than Obama or Biden first, should s/he be allowed to say anything at all? Of course not. Why can't these idiots get things straight?
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jillan Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-24-08 06:17 PM
Response to Reply #48
72. Maybe you should take a look at this -
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DevonRex Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-24-08 06:19 PM
Response to Reply #72
77. Pirhana you have made me smile. Thanks. :) nt
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jillan Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-24-08 06:26 PM
Response to Reply #77
86. Ya know -
I really hate it when people try to tell me what I think
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DevonRex Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-24-08 06:28 PM
Response to Reply #86
91. And I really love it when you speak your mind. You have such a
way with words. This thread had gotten kinda pissy and when you linked to your previous post (which I loved by the way) and then said STFU, I cracked up laughing.
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jillan Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-24-08 06:31 PM
Response to Reply #91
93. :-D
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ruggerson Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-24-08 06:39 PM
Response to Reply #72
99. Your inquisitor is one of the gang of 17
don't pay any attention to him. They are just as bad as the MSM as they only thrive on what's divisive and bad for Democrats.
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Arnold Judas Rimmer Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-24-08 06:55 PM
Response to Reply #99
112. Andrea is a "him"?
Or was that a typo?
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Andrea Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-24-08 07:57 PM
Response to Reply #112
160. huh? n/t
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Arnold Judas Rimmer Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-24-08 08:17 PM
Response to Reply #160
163. The previous post seems to refer back to you
Except it says "him". I was just confused, because I never met a guy named Andrea.

(Don't worry, I wasn't going for a Coulter joke or anything like that)
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Andrea Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-24-08 08:47 PM
Response to Reply #163
167. No, I think it's something about
piranha or whoever piranha's "inquisitor" is. I'm not privy to what they are discussing.
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ruggerson Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-24-08 08:54 PM
Response to Reply #163
170. Andrea wasn't the one who was making accusations against pirhana
look at it again.
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JI7 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-24-08 07:32 PM
Response to Reply #72
148. ok, my apologies
it's nice you came around.
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barack the house Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-24-08 07:18 PM
Response to Reply #45
137. Good for you. It's all about the big picture, we'll critique once we're past the post really.-->
As one party is simply promising us literal hell and the other a fighting chance.
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dkf Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-24-08 06:01 PM
Response to Original message
59. Mothership? Oh my.
And I thought I was tough on this crew.
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depakid Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-24-08 06:02 PM
Response to Original message
60. America- love it or leave it
Saw one of those the other day- must be coming back into favor. Unlike American cars....
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mkultra Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-24-08 06:24 PM
Response to Reply #60
83. America, love it or vote. Then STFU.
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depakid Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-24-08 06:32 PM
Response to Reply #83
94. If people spent as much time going after the far right as they did progressives
and had done so for the past 15 years or so- we wouldn't be having this discussion.

We also wouldn't be in a quagmire in Iraq- and the economy wouldn't be melting down.
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mkultra Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-24-08 06:35 PM
Response to Reply #94
97. agreed.
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DainBramaged Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-24-08 07:05 PM
Response to Reply #94
124. Ain't that the truth!
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mkultra Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-24-08 06:18 PM
Response to Original message
74. BRAVO!
if your a hater, see ya later.
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Doremus Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-24-08 06:25 PM
Response to Original message
85. THANK YOU. nt
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Piperay Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-24-08 06:43 PM
Response to Original message
103. Yup and the mothership can
take em to Planet U-r-anus where all the assholes belong and their leader is McINSANE. :puke:
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barack the house Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-24-08 06:58 PM
Response to Original message
117. Yep, this is the ticket for better or worse, we make it happen as true Democrats.As I would any -->
Edited on Sun Aug-24-08 07:00 PM by barack the house
other ticket.
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Phx_Dem Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-24-08 07:06 PM
Response to Original message
125. Yeah. What you said. n/t
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ContinentalOp Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-24-08 07:13 PM
Response to Original message
130. I'm pretty stoked about Obama/Biden but...um... there's a mothership!?
Where do I get on?

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DainBramaged Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-24-08 07:18 PM
Response to Reply #130
138. The mothership furs all doze aliens dat is against Obama/Biden
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cornermouse Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-24-08 07:32 PM
Response to Reply #138
149. I have a cat that looks exactly like that.
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DainBramaged Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-24-08 07:34 PM
Response to Reply #149
151. That is my Coco Channel, the itty bitty torti kitty, with one white whisker
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cornermouse Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-24-08 07:38 PM
Response to Reply #151
152. She's pretty.
My husband calls ours the Halloween cat. I call her Kitty.
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DainBramaged Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-24-08 07:42 PM
Response to Reply #152
154. She is a little doll, not cranky like most tortoiseshells
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DevonRex Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-25-08 09:14 AM
Response to Reply #138
212. I have a torti kitty, too. She's a Devon Rex. Looks kind of like
a cross between a gremlin and a bat. And she's the sweetest cat in the world. She likes to curl around my neck in front. Nice in the winter but in summer it gets kinda hot.
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Rosa Luxemburg Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-24-08 07:31 PM
Response to Original message
146. Exactly!
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No Elephants Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-25-08 07:54 AM
Response to Original message
189. Obama-Biden. That's the ticket. Dems forget all else!
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mystieus Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-25-08 07:58 AM
Response to Original message
191. lol,
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many a good man Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-25-08 08:26 AM
Response to Original message
196. "Lead, follow, or get the hell out of the way!"
Or at least, "fake it till he makes it."
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truebrit71 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-25-08 08:31 AM
Response to Original message
200. Amen!
Enough with the kvetching...
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Larkspur Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-25-08 08:43 AM
Response to Original message
205. I'll vote for Obama/Biden but that will not stop me from criticizing them
I'm not inspired by Obama nor by his running mate. I find their support of free trade, credit card companies over the welfare of Working and Middle Class America troubling. Basically, I see Obama/Biden the lesser of 2 evils.
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DainBramaged Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-25-08 08:54 AM
Response to Reply #205
210. Really, the lesser of two evils? So I guess you think Booshe is da bomb then?
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Larkspur Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-25-08 10:09 AM
Response to Reply #210
219. Bush is a War criminal and should be impeached and sent to the Hague for trial
President Obama will not do a thorough investigation of the Bush Admin's crimes. He'll pretend to do so at first but then he'll say we have more important things to do.

The real divide in this country is not between Democrat and Republican but between the Money Party and the People. The Money Party has corrupted the Democrats, including Obama, as well as the Republican Party.
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DainBramaged Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-25-08 10:10 AM
Response to Reply #219
220. If you are so unhappy with the Candidate, why are you here?
If I was unhappy, I'd be gone, unless my goal was to stir up shit, but that's childish, isn't it?
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Larkspur Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-25-08 10:15 AM
Response to Reply #220
223. Because I'm a Democrat not a syncophant for Obama
I believe in the core principles of the Democratic Party even though I find some Democratic leaders objectionable or uninspiring.
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DainBramaged Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-25-08 10:25 AM
Response to Reply #223
226. Ah ha, so you don't want to unite under Obama/Biden?
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Larkspur Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-25-08 11:01 AM
Response to Reply #226
229. I tolerate the Obama/Biden ticket, that's it
I won't enthusiastically help the ticket. I'll vote for it. That's it because they are the lesser of 2 evils.
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DainBramaged Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-25-08 11:25 AM
Response to Reply #229
233. So, you aren't planning on working to see them elected, is that it?
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Larkspur Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-25-08 01:36 PM
Response to Reply #233
237. I'm not volunteering my spare time or cash to the Obama/Biden ticket
They don't need my money. I'll donate it to other Democratic candidates I can support.
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Larkspur Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-25-08 01:35 PM
Response to Reply #226
235. How do you explain the fact that I'm voting for Obama/Biden?
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nc4bo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-25-08 01:43 PM
Response to Reply #210
241. cute graphic, hope you don't mind if I steal it? nt
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mkultra Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-25-08 09:20 AM
Response to Reply #205
215. maybe you can talk some indies into voting McCain then.
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Larkspur Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-25-08 10:13 AM
Response to Reply #215
222. Why would I do that?
I don't support McCain. Just because I don't trust Obama doesn't mean I'll support McCain. You have a childish view of Obama dissenters. You have the same view as George Bush -- you either with us or against us.

Here were my top choices during the Democratic Primary this year"
1) None of the Above
2) Anybody but Hillary and a DLC Dem
3) Whoever is the most viable non-Clinton/non-DLC candidate by CT's Feb. 5 primary

Obama fell under my #3 choice.

I'm not inspired by Obama. I'm disappointed in him. But the Republicans have become a criminal syndicate and need to be ousted. The problem is Obama and the Dem Establishment don't see the Republicans as a criminal enterprise because they are corrupted by the same Money Party that has thoroughly corrupted the Republican Party.
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mkultra Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-25-08 11:01 AM
Response to Reply #222
230. well, if your not feeling good about Obama thats fine
As far as im concerned, Clinton was the democratic establishment/Money party.

All your being asked to do is not bash Obama.
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Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-25-08 11:04 AM
Response to Reply #230
231. Deleted message
Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.
 
Larkspur Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-25-08 01:37 PM
Response to Reply #230
238. Criticizing Obama is not bashing him
Obama is also part of the Money Party. He's got large bundlers working for his campaign too.
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Butch350 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-25-08 08:51 AM
Response to Original message
209. Hang Low Sweet Chariot...

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bdamomma Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-25-08 10:11 AM
Response to Original message
221. I am happy with the choice.
the media on the other hand isn't but too bad for them.
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LanternWaste Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-25-08 10:17 AM
Response to Original message
224. I'd rather receive my choices...
I'd rather receive my choices from a well-reasoned position rather than a dogmatic ultimatum. That is all... :eyes:
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JVS Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-25-08 01:35 PM
Response to Original message
236. AMEN!
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Skwmom Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-25-08 01:45 PM
Response to Original message
242. If you're goal is to piss off people so they will vote third party or
Edited on Mon Aug-25-08 01:45 PM by Skwmom
stay home, this is definitely the way to do it. If not, maybe you want to consider a different strategy.


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No Elephants Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-25-08 01:48 PM
Response to Reply #242
244. Anyone voting or not based upon message board posts is not being rational.
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DainBramaged Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-25-08 02:37 PM
Response to Reply #242
246. I'm not the DNC I don't need a straterergery
do you?
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Imagevision Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-25-08 02:40 PM
Response to Original message
247. Unite under Obama/Biden or get ready for 4 more years of Bush BS.
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DainBramaged Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-25-08 07:45 PM
Response to Original message
257. HEY, this thread is still going? I am so proud.
:patriot:
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sofa king Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-25-08 07:55 PM
Response to Original message
260. Shouldn't it be "get off" the mothership?
'Cause I'm riding the mothership connection to Chocolate City.
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Blue_Tires Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Aug-26-08 02:32 PM
Response to Original message
277. there's a mothership? why in fuck's name does no one ever tell me these things?
and i've been here longer than most!
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