Why The Smear Boats Are Sinking

[Timbuk3]

Other than in the opinion of the most rabid Rush Limbaugh fans who have decided to leave reality behind, the smear boat ads aren't having the effect that the FReepers, "Bush and only Bush" Republicans, and various other right wing whack jobs had hoped for. As a matter of fact, it's not hard at all to find reporters who are speculating that the smear boat technique has either already backfired, or will backfire. What I was having a hard time understanding was, "why"?

Then I read this article, and some of the "fog of war" began to clear.

Some of us, including me, are relics from that era.

Younger Americans don't remember the Viet Nam war, and they don't hold those deep seated old grudges. Older Americans fought their own war, and have their own opinions on the success of failure of the Viet Nam war. The smear boaters just don't have the effect on them that they have on us. It's only us baby boomers who still fight that ancient battle, and there just aren't that many of us sitting on the fence.

People my age still care about what happened in Viet Nam. We know what "vietnamization" meant, how we were lied to by our government, how our National Guard shot students our own age dead, and we watched with mixed emotions as the helicopters airlifted the last Americans off the roof of the embassy in Saigon (now Ho Chi Minh City.) Many of us can still vividly recall those images of a woman kneeling over a dead student at Kent State, and of those Americans climbing those ladders, today.

Some of us, at least, still have an ulterior motive. We're all still on one side or the other of the question of whether the war was a just cause that staved off the growth of communism, or a failed attempt to impose democracy where it wasn't wanted. One side thinks it was an unrecognized success, the other thinks that it was an unrecognized humiliation. But we are, all of us, on both sides of the old war/peace debate, only a fraction of the swing voters.

Most of us aren't going to change our vote, this year, no matter what. Ninety percent of Americans have already made up their minds. Ten percent of "not that many" doesn't equal much. At least some of the "not that many" are going to be turned off by the smear boaters gleefully destroying the credibility of EVERY veteran who ever served in their mad lust to destroy Kerry. If every voter who swings to Bush as a result of the ads is countered by a voter who is disgusted by their low, lying tactics deciding to vote for Kerry you don't have much of a movement.

The smear boaters, who think the war was a success, can't stand to be humiliated. Their howls of rage will only grow. And we will rise to the occasion, and meet those howls of rage with our own. So it goes, but in the end the saner swing voters will be disgusted by the politically motivated smears against everyone who ever served our country honorably by the veterans for "truth".

And we may just be raising a whole new generation of Americans who will fight the same type of battle over Iraq, all of their lives. This will be Bush's historical legacy. Tearing the nation apart, once more.

Read the article. He says it better than I just did.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A27207-2004Aug23.html

"I suddenly have this vision -- that when you guys reach the nursing homes, you're going to be leaning on your walkers and beating each other with your canes, because you still will not have settled the arguments from the Sixties."

[Cocoa]

1. maybe it's because I'm too young...

but I think the whole Vietnam angle is entirely beside the point, obscuring the real story: the Rove smear machine.

If Kerry was not a Vietnam vet, they would have smeared him on something else. Simple as that, as I see it.

But like I said, it's entirely possible that your point and Broder's rings true with people of that generation.

[fknobbit]

4. No Body

No matter what age it is impossible to believe that every Vet who runs against a Republican is an evil, treacherous, scumbag who should be ashamed of his/her military record. This trick has really grown boring and thin, even to Joe six pack..

[krkaufman]

5. Exactly... what's the common thread across all the smears.

McCain... Cleland... Kerry... All smeared by the Rove Smear Machine. Just too much coincidence.

[Timbuk3]

6. You guys make a good point

According to the Limbauvian logic of Rove/Bush (Bush isn't innocent, no matter what anyone says he's behind it every bit as much as Rove) every Democratic veteran is a lying scumbag who joined the service to collect illegitimate medals so that he could get out ASAP and run for office, some day.

All Republican vets are heroes.

Which doesn't explain why McCain is supporting Bush, at all. They SMEARED him, and he just bends over and says "Vote Bush". Then he turns around and complains when they do the same thing to Kerry? WTF is up with THAT? What do you actually stand for, John? The GOP, or veterans?

I'd like to see McCain do a turnaround, just before the election, and come out in support of Kerry because "I just can't support that lying son of a bitch, any more." Powell, too.

Bush is taking the only (relatively) good Republicans down with him. I'm just not sure if this is a good thing, or a bad thing.

[krkaufman]

8. And I just *LOVE* MSNBC...

... for their just saying that the Kerry Campaign charges, that the Bush Campaign is behind the Swift lies, have not been proven.

Ummm... NONE of the Swift lies have been proven, either; oh, wait... they've been disproven many times over. Yet the Swift liars keep spewing forth on every news outlet available.

And just a few minutes before, Matthews said, in a pre-commercial tease for the upcoming segment, that he would be discussing the 527 and outside groups running ads and how they were hurting the political process. Hey, Tweety... what's hurting the political process is journalists and news organizations not doing their job, and allowing these unsubstantiated smears to be trafficed on their programs.

[Jack Rabbit]

13. I'm not too young (52)

You're right. Months ago several people at DU predicted that, no matter who the Democrats nominated, if the Bushies didn't have anything against him then they would make it up. Well, they don't and they have.

To me, the issue is the Rove smear machine in any case. This doesn't have anything to do with whether the war was right or wrong. This is about character assassination.

John Kerry has been a public figure since 1971 when he appeared before Congress and dramatically asked how the government could ask some one to be the last person to die for a mistake. John O'Neill was recruited at that time by the Nixon White House, another motley crew that didn't shy from making outrageous smears. O'Neill knew just as much about Kerry's actions then as he does now. Why did he make no attempt then to impugn Kerry's valor? The only reason is that these smears are some more recent inventions of his imagination.

[KharmaTrain]

17. It's Rove Pulling The Nam Strings...

Yes, it's the Rove smear operation as you state, but it's being done to ignite an older division that hasn't been seen in this country since the waning days of Vietnam...in fact, about the time Kerry spoke out against the war. After that, My Lai and the fallout of Kent State the year before made removed the last vestiges of any open public support of that war.

Rove tapped into a long-felt anger among some Vietnam vets about the war and how they were treated afterwards. These are the guys who hang out at the VFW Halls and had to suck in stories about dad's great WWII adventures while his war was looked down as a defeat and those specific vets were part of the reason. The resentment has always been below the surface...all Rove did was stir up some 1969 Mekong Delta flashback, spread some money and this is what happened.

Yes, there's a very big Vietnam angle here...from one who remembers those days way too well. You're seeing aging men in denial of their past...trying to rewrite history or get some kind of revenge for the years of rage...all milked along all these years and now unleashed by the Repugnicans. Here's hoping it does backfire, since there were a lot more of us then them then and I suspect that's still the same today.

Cheers!

[The Velveteen Ocelot]

2. It won't stop.

I was in college in the late '60s and I remember all that stuff very clearly, and how intense and bitter the controversy had become. It won't end until we're all dead, just like the Civil War wasn't "over" until the last vet of that war died (some say it's still going on). The sad thing is that in 35 years our grandchildren will still be arguing about the Iraq war, which is fast becoming as controversial as Vietnam. And there might be another memorial with a yet-unknown number of names engraved on it, and a decorated Iraq vet who speaks out against this war will run for President, and the vile ideological spawn of Lee Atwater and KKKarl Rove will claim he didn't deserve his decorations.

People suck.

[Tansy_Gold]

11. It can stop, if we work to stop it

I'm not a pollyanna by any means, and I have my moments of abject depression just like anyone living in these interesting times.

But people do learn, people do change. not everywhere at the same time, and not at the same rate, and yes there's backsliding.

If we don't believe in a better tomorrow than today, we might just as well wrap our lips around the nearest tailpipe and check out now.

I'm not ready to check out.

[gristy]

3. Here's a copy of the article that you don't need to register for

http://www.thestate.com/mld/state/news/opinion/9487583.htm

[Booster]

7. Tim. You said it very well indeed.

That was an ugly time for sure and I was totally against the Viet Nam war. I remember at the time saying "who are we to decide what type of government another country will have". Alas, history is repeating itself during our own lifetime. If anyone thinks that war was successful, they are extremely delusional

[Timbuk3]

9. Thank you

I've got to work in the morning, so I'm leaving for the night, but thanks for the kind words and empathy. I'll visit the thread again tomorrow and read any other replies.

History is indeed repeating itself in Iraq.

Those who don't remember the past are forever condemned to repeat it. Every 30 years or so, I guess. It's too bad we have to kill so many people, not to mention waste so much money, to re-learn the same lessons.

[Mayberry Machiavelli]

10. There is no way, regardless of ideology, the Vietnam War could be

regarded as a success for the U.S. "Body count" nonwithstanding, the U.S. failed to achieve its goal of the conflict, which was to prevent the spread of communism and the fall of South Vietnam to the North, and the U.S. military had to leave.

[DrFunkenstein]

12. For Any Post-Vietnam Gen Xer Like Me, I Have Two Recommendations

Vietnam: A Televised History (just out on DVD)

(this follows the conflict from the earliest days - even starting before the French - to well past the fall of Saigon)

Hearts and Minds

(brilliant, brilliant documentary. essential)

------------------------

That was very thoughtfully and eloquently said, Timbuk3.

[Warpy]

14. Most of us have learned to live with each other

no matter which side of the Vietnam controversy we were on. We'd learned to put all that nasty bitterness behind us, to try to cope with each other as flawed human beings, no one of us with all the answers.

The Smear Boat guys had just never managed to do that, it seems, spending their time down at the VFW hall and snarling whenever anyone not on their side came onto the TV at the bar.

Enter someone with a lot of flattery and some very deep pockets, and I'm not talking about Bob Perry. He may have bankrolled the ad, but the somebody else is getting it airtime.

All this stuff is being dredged up for a lot of people on both sides who wish it had stayed buried. It is going to backfire most heavily with anyone who was alive and involved at that time. The only people it may work on are some of the dumber old folks who never forgave us for "losing" that unwinnable war and for denouncing the lies which caused it to be fought.

[Jane Austin]

15. I was thinking tonight about how a Martian - or a European -

or anybody but us would think about this.

They would probably say, "Uh, let's see. One guy fought in a war and saved a guy's life and got some medals.

"The other guy didn't even go.

"And HE has the balls to question the guy who went?

"Are you people NUTS?"

[Karenina]

19. BINGO!!!

That is EXACTLY what's being said.

[monarch]

20. I think the martian would make a very cute ad

n/t

[nomatrix]

16. May I suggest a study of one's opponent?

Some here have hit the nail or the turd blossom *Rove* on the head.

This has nothing to do with Vietnam, John Kerry, or Swift boat veteran. It has everything to do with what works in political smear.

http://villagenews.weblogger.com/stories/storyReader$12533

Friendly Fire: The Birth of an Anti-Kerry Ad
Veterans' Group Has Ties to Bush Family, President's Top Political Aide
By KATE ZERNIKE and JIM RUTENBERG, The New York Times

"A series of interviews and a review of documents show a web of connections to the Bush family, high-profile Texas political figures and President Bush's chief political aide, Karl Rove.

Records show that the group received the bulk of its initial financing from two men with ties to the president and his family - one a longtime political associate of Mr. Rove's, the other a trustee of the foundation for Mr. Bush's father's presidential library. A Texas publicist who once helped prepare Mr. Bush's father for his debate when he was running for vice president provided them with strategic advice. And the group's television commercial was produced by the same team that made the devastating ad mocking Michael S. Dukakis in an oversized tank helmet when he and Mr. Bush's father faced off in the 1988 presidential election.

The strategy the veterans devised would ultimately paint John Kerry the war hero as John Kerry the "baby killer" and the fabricator of the events that resulted in his war medals. But on close examination, the accounts of Swift Boat Veterans for Truth' prove to be riddled with inconsistencies. In many cases, material offered as proof by these veterans is undercut by official Navy records and the men's own statements."

It's detailed, read on how it works. Pay close attention

The group decided to hire a private investigator to investigate Mr. Brinkley's account of the war - to find "some neutral way of actually questioning people involved in these incidents,'' Mr. O'Neill said.
But the investigator's questions did not seem neutral to some.
Patrick Runyon, who served on a mission with Mr. Kerry, said he initially thought the caller was from a pro-Kerry group, and happily gave a statement about the night Mr. Kerry won his first Purple Heart. The investigator said he would send it to him by e-mail for his signature. Mr. Runyon said the edited version was stripped of all references to enemy combat, making it look like just another night in the Mekong Delta.
"It made it sound like I didn't believe we got any returned fire," he said. "He made it sound like it was a normal operation. It was the scariest night of my life."

So we have innocent men, thought it was a pro-Kerry, accounts edited, ta-da! "Smearboat".

Stinks of turd blossom. Google that.

[JLFinch]

18. Stop John O'Neill - Sic the Texas State Bar on Him

John E. O'Neill
CLEMENTS O'NEILL PIERCE WILSON ET AL
1000 LOUISIANA ST STE 1800
HOUSTON, TX, 77002
phone [phone]

Bar Card Number: 1529750

John E. O'Neill, author of Unfit for Command, is an attorney licensed and practicing in Texas. Rumor has it he thinks he will be appointed a federal judge...let's not let that happen.

According to the Texas Disciplinary Rules of Professional Conduct:

Rule 8.02 Judicial and Legal Officials (a) A lawyer shall not make a statement that the lawyer knows to be false or with reckless disregard as to its truth or falsity concerning the *qualifications or integrity* of a judge, adjudicatory official or public legal officer, or of a *candidate for election* or appointment to judicial or legal office.

Rule 8.04 Misconduct (a) A lawyer shall not: (3) engage in conduct involving dishonesty, fraud, deceit or misrepresentation;

The State Bar can sanction him, suspend his license or even DISBAR him.

PLEASE WRITE, FAX, FED EX THE TEXAS STATE BAR TO COMPLAIN ABOUT THESE VIOLATIONS - including specific examples would be best:

Texas State Bar Address

P.O. Box 12487
Austin, Texas 78711

1414 Colorado St.
Austin, TX 78701

Fax: [phone]

Telephone Numbers --- but writing is better

Toll Free: [phone]
Local: [phone]


FEEL FREE TO POST THIS EVERYWHERE AND E-MAIL IT EVERWHERE - I can't make a new thread but would be great if someone else would create this as a new thread.
.

[calico1]

21. What I remember distinctly about that era

is the I didn't know of one single, decent, morally upright person who was in favor of the war. At least not the part I remember, which is when it turned bad. The ones that were in favor of it were Rumsfeld, Rove type people. Clergy, intelectuals, scientists---I just don't remember any that were pro war. Of course I ws 16 when they pulled out in '75 so maybe I don't remember everything, but I just don't recall any family members, teachers, etc. that were happy we were over there. What I believe is that there is a lot of anger, resentment, bitterness among the gung ho, pro war people who never forgot how it ended and how unpopular the war was and who never got over the fact that it was a huge failure and embarrasement for the U.S. I think the Swiftboaters and their supporters see this as their last good chance of changing the legacy of Vietnam and their part in it. Kerry is a symbol to them--a reminder of something they don't want to think about. Of course, they want Bush to win, but I think that changing how Vietnam is perceived--futile as that is--is another motivator for them.