Listen to a bit of Pastor Warren's sermon today.

[ClayZ]

I think the Pastor at Saddleback likes OBAMA!

http://saddleback.com/flash/

Scroll down on the left and click *SEE OUR SERVICE*

The short clip from this morning leads me to believe he favors OBAMA. (Of course I am biased)

heh heh

[Muttocracy]

1. is that today's? Did he have a goatee last night? nt

[writes3000]

3. Yes, he had a goatee last night. And I heard his sermon today was going to be about this. nt

[FrenchieCat]

51. He also had a toupe last night.

[QC]

2. Warren is trying to relabel himself as a thoughtful moderate,

now that Billy Graham is on the way out and the position of National Pastor will soon open up.

Not to worry, though: he's still fundamentalist to the core.

[Peacetrain]

4. QC you are the first person I have seen who got it right

Fundamentalist! There have been so many people confused by evangelical,and bashing all evangelicals (probably because the press confuses the two), :hi:

[QC]

5. Thank you! I do try. Unfortunately, a lot of people here are falling for

Warren's new marketing campaign.

[Taverner]

10. If it means an Obama win in 08

If it means the Evangelicals will be down with compassion

If it means the Evangelicals will be just as keen on getting out of Iraq as us

If it means that we start taking care of those who need it most

Then so mote it be

[QC]

12. It's more likely to mean the Democratic Party getting pulled in their direction

than them getting pulled in our direction. At least that's the way things have always worked before.

As my grandfather used to say, if you lay down with dogs, you get up with fleas.

Here's a question for you: which of "our" issues would you compromise in order to bring Pastor Rick and his folks on board?

[Taverner]

17. Depends on which direction

If it goes in the Dorthy Day/Beatitudes direction - sure, that would be nice

If it goes in the Dobson direction, different story

But Obama last night stuck to his guns. He turned around the Abortion question in a way that only the crazy would be against

Obama really impressed me last night

And I'm an Atheist

[QC]

20. Well, I would love nothing more than to see us make common cause with

people like Jim Wallis, but Rick Warren is no Jim Wallace. He is just a garden variety Baptist with a real genius for self-promotion.

Warren did not impress me last night. And I'm a Christian, though not one that he would probably recognize as such.

[Taverner]

23. Thing is, Warren is the key to the Evangelical vote

Most Evangelicals I know (my brother is a Baptist minister - fire and ice, no?) feel royally screwed by the Bush admin. Unlike Archie Bunker, they feel the rub of anal rape without lube (sorry, had to throw that in there) - so they are looking elsewhere. Dobson has lost a lot of clout with the younger Evangie set. Same with Billy Junior. Both have put politics over faith in their eyes. Warren hasn't (yet) and the one name that keeps coming up is David Kuo, who was also royally screwed by the Bush admin. They are taking to task his call for compassion - and its become a big issue with Evangies I've met.

[QC]

28. I agree that younger evangelicals are looking beyond the GOP.

I know some of these people, and hey, it was my evangelical upbringing that made me a liberal--all that stuff about the least of these.

I don't trust Warren, though. He is meddling in the troubles in my own church (Episcopal) and getting into bed with some very nasty bigots, even though he claims not to be one himself. I think he's just a garden variety fundy who has read the Barna Group surveys and knows that overt bigotry doesn't sell like it used to.

[Taverner]

29. Perhaps you are right

I agree with you on both points, but if it helps us that can only be good

[tomg]

46. Jim Wallis is absolutely

wonderful. Would that people recognized the difference between an Evangelical like Jim Wallis and the fundamntalists. Incidentally, I am an agnostic.

[Bluerthanblue]

24. well, with apologies to your Grandfather, I have to

say that evangelicals are not "dogs"- (though I prefer many a dogs company to some humans I've known).

The 'religious' community is looking for a party- they are the ones doing the 'adjusting'- I've known the 'evangelical' community for quite a long time, and disagree with your opinion of Warren, and the place for followers of Pastor Warren in the Democratic party.

He has been denounced by the 'christian' evangelicals as being far too liberal and soft for as long as he's had any kind of popularity. The religious community I was connected to called him "lukewarm'- which to them was worse than being an athiest-

I don't advocate that people change their positions to fit any 'agenda'- but your US vs THEM ALL/NOTHING mentality is not only self defeating, it is a perfect example of everything that is WRONG with politics, and human'kind' as a whole.

If there was never any room for tolerance and compromise this nation- the USA would never have been created. Go do a little reading about the effort and compromises required to come up with our Constitution, and all the compromises and adjustments that ARE the 'bill of rights'.


Bigotry and hate are equal opportunity destroyers.

I hope we can wrap our minds around THAT fact someday.

:shrug:

[QC]

32. Here's some info about Warren that you would do well to consider.

http://www.episcopalcafe.com/lead/faith_and_politics/rick_warren_moderate_1.html

Here's some info on his meddling in the ongoing Anglican conflicts over gay Christians: guess which side he's taking? (Since this is my church he's trying to tear apart, I cannot help but wish that Warren, a Baptist, would tend to his own knitting.)

Sorry, but he's no moderate. Not even close.

And no, he's not a dog, either. That old saying is what's known as a metaphor for the way we often tend to take on the qualities of those with whom we closely associate.

[Taverner]

39. All points to consider, but no one is going to agree with us 100%

Especially folks like me, who sometimes have a hard time finding common ground even on DU. I am, in my heart, an Atheist and an Anarchist.

[QC]

40. It would seem that there is plenty of common ground to be found.

Warren and I probably agree on, say, the tragedy of war, the need to feed the hungry and clothe the naked, etc.

Where it all falls apart is with the common obsession with sex, one that Warren shares.

Dr Warren said that homosexuality is not a natural way of life and thus not a human right. "We shall not tolerate this aspect at all," Dr Warren said.

[Taverner]

43. Well yeah, I disagree with him 100%

But perhaps a little time on the campaign trail with Obama might expose him to people he never comes across at Saddleback.

Granted, I'm being optimistic.

But I'd rather have him inside the tent, pissing out than the other way around

[Bluerthanblue]

45. well crap-

you said it perfectly.

:hi:

If change isn't possible, what is living for?

[Bluerthanblue]

44. and here is some info on the real

intolerance Warren is swimming against.

http://www.worldnetdaily.com/index.php?fa=PAGE.view&pageId=70604

I'm sincere when I say I know where Warren is coming from. I'm neither naive or ignorant- There are people who are ....'teachable'???...... "reachable" within the evangelical religious movement who are leaning away from the hate-FULL dogma of the sort my link spouts, towards the more moderate position of Warren. Is he ideal? hell no- but he IS a more moderate voice speaking out, and being LISTENED to by people who need to hear about the more difficult issues that face this world- instead of legislating a persons sexual life, how about legislating to ensure no one starves or goes without shelter- that people are not allowed to hoard enormous wealth for themselves while their neighbors are suffering and dying???

That instead of spending billions of dollars creating tons of weapons with which to destroy life, we focus our efforts on fighting disease, poverty, human suffering. Things which require something out of 'christians' other than telling others that they are 'sinners' or legislating against abortions while denying the newborn any assistance or physical support with which to LIVE???

I was once blinded by the kind of religion we are talking about- and I am about as as far from their belief system as one can get and still retain a personal faith. If you don't believe people are capable of change are you sure you believe in 'faith'?

(I'm not advocating FOR Warren- I am advocating not being dismissive of groups of people based on anything other than their own actions as individuals- which is bigotry and prejudice. no less ugly than homophobia, sexism, racism or any other ism)

[QC]

47. I don't deny that Warren is an improvement over Dobson.

In fact, I have long been impressed by his willingness to teach that our lives have a purpose beyond buying things. More people need to say that. And I am well aware, being that I live in a place that makes Utah look like Berkeley, that the hard right considers Warren squishy at best and a heretic at worst.

But it's hard for me to get past:

Dr Warren said that homosexuality is not a natural way of life and thus not a human right. "We shall not tolerate this aspect at all," Dr Warren said.

Meditate on that one for a bit. Consider its full implications. It's a truly chilling statement.

I do believe that Warren can move beyond that, but until he does I do not want him to have power over me.

[Bluerthanblue]

53. I cannot disagree that this statement from

Warren is against what I believe, and am willing to fight against.

I cannot deny the fact that he has come to a place of understanding about the narcissistic, materialistic, selfish "me and mine first" mentality of many leaders in the 'christian' community though. And if I'm going to need him to accept all the ...precepts that I do, and that I feel are vital to a healthy, civil and 'just' spiritual life, before I'm willing to give him half a chance, then I have become a hypocrite myself.

I will not and do not defend the statements he has made about homosexuality. I believe they are wrong, destructive, and clearly "UN-CHRIST"ian. But, there is indeed hope that Pastor Warren will open his eyes, mind and heart, and realize that he is and has been terribly wrong on this issue. That cannot happen unless people are willing to engage him, and others who suffer under the same hate filled, and fear based dogma in a rational, respectful manner. People don't change their thinking based on fear- you may get someone to grudgingly say what you want to hear if you bully, threaten or marginalize them, but you won't change their ...'heart'.

If you cannot get past his statement on homosexuality, I can't fault you for that. But I can't join you in seeing him as 'worthless' because of it. All of us have things that we don't like or agree with each other about. I can't discard someone based on one aspect of their 'whole'- That doesn't mean I have to support, or even allow them to state their position without countering it with my own - but to completely deny them is as bigoted as the hatred I see homophobia as being.

Maybe I misunderstood your position on Warren. As a UCC person now, I don't believe that anyone 'has power over me' spiritually that I don't willingly relinquish. At one time, I was involved in a church which pretty much required "obedience". I learned the hard way not to ever put anyone in a position of 'power' or 'control' in my spiritual life, that ultimately belongs to god as I believe god to be.

Thanks for the discussion- I wish you, and all the world, peace, wisdom, comfort and healing.

blu

[ClayZ]

54. COMMON GROUND

I think WE is the key word in We the People.

Thanks for you heartfelt post!

[Cassandra]

8. Indeed, Jimmy Carter is evangelical...

but not a fundamentalist. Fundies, OTOH, include the Taliban, Hasidm, and any other authoritarian types looking for a religion that will fulfill their need to control and be controlled.

[Peacetrain]

42. Exactly

[TrogL]

48. that's because non-fundamentalist evangelicals are so rare

At my church, that was the gist of the sermon.

[noel711]

52. Non-fundamentalist christians rare?

My denomination, The Evangelical LUtheran Church in America
has 4.7 million members...

Evangelical? Yes.
Fundamentalist? No.

Biblically and politically left of center.
Not perfect, but not fundie.
Because the denomincation is so large,
and spread thruout the country,
there are some things we still bicker about...

If you pastor defines 'christians' as those
who agree with him, he's drawing lines
that even Jesus was loathe to draw.

Sadly, the loud-mouthed fundies have done us all
a disservice when they claim to speak for all christians.

[qazplm]

6. well so what?

if he's at least willing to say nice things about Dems, and he's popular, you dont think that's an improvement???

[QC]

9. No, I don't think that giving theocrats legitimacy is something Democrats

ought to be doing.

I don't think that assisting Rick Warren in his makeover, the purpose of which is to increase his secular power, is a good idea.

I don't think that reinforcing the idea that only fundamentalist Christians are "people of faith" is a good idea.

[ClayZ]

11. I think Obama was looking for common ground.

I am hoping he found it....

We are all here together!

[qazplm]

16. if he were a theocrat

why would he advocate the opposite?

I think you just dont like religion a whole lot.

[QC]

22. "I think you just dont like religion a whole lot."

And there it is! I was wondering how long it would take for this old chestnut to be dragged out.

I am a Christian. A progressive one. In fact, I just got back from services at my liberal, accepting parish.

My problems with Warren do not have to do with him being a Christian, but with him being a fundamentalist trying to pass himself off as something else. Of course, who can blame him for trying? It certainly has worked on you.

[Bluerthanblue]

27. very progressive of you-

:shrug:

"And they'll know we are Christians by...."


Walk the talk fellow traveller-

[QC]

30. What did I say that was incorrect?

Warren *is* a fundamentalist and he *does* market himself as a thoughtful moderate.

Should I look the other way for the sake of niceness?

[demwing]

19. Don't assume that all theologists

who want to influnce their government are theocrats.

That's like assuming that gays and lesbians who want to influence their government have a Gay/Lesbian "agenda".

[QC]

25. The word is theologians, and I don't assume that.

Neither do I assume that Rick Warren is just a nice guy--See! He's wearing a Hawaiian shirt!--with no thought at all for secular power.

Here's something useful in getting past Warren's carefully crafted image of moderation. It's definitely worth a read.

[demwing]

35. The words are often interchangeable

but thanks.

I'm not defending Warren, and you're diverting attention from my point.

[QC]

38. I'm sorry. That was catty and pedantic of me, and I do apologize.

My point is that I do not believe Warren to be a moderate; no matter how much he tries to market himself as one, his actions say otherwise.

[demwing]

49. No harm no foul.

and I think I agree with you about Warren, but further research is required on my part before I make that judgment.

My two main positions are:

1) Progressives and Liberals don't wish to painted with broad strokes, so we should not do so to the religious, regardless of how we personally feel about issues of faith and politics. Not everyone in a group thinks and acts with the same mind set.

2) Religion is here, it's not going away any time soon. Should we ignore the religious (NO!) or should we seek stand along side those who can understand the concept of "common ground" ? To find them, we have to reach out.

Despite Warren's goals, known, unknown, real or imagined, he presented Obama an opportunity to reach out to a small % of folks, who--if they cant help our cause--at least may think twice before helping McCain's.

Net result? Obama scores a strategic win.

[Gabi Hayes]

14. he shivved him big time last night, and is now talking nice to cover his tracks,

knowing that NOBODY's listening today

he was running interference for McCain last night, and that's all that mattered

the public will forget Warren now. he did his dirty work very well, and the M$M is lapping it up like starving rats at a bubonic plague outbreak

[1Hippiechick]

31. Gabi, I like your colorful way with words! I laughed out loud! :)

:rofl:

[stray cat]

7. It seemed clear last night Obama's depth impressed him and McCains campaigning made him unhappy

[ClayZ]

26. That was my impression, too.

McGoo and his story-telling did not seem to be DEEP enough for Warren after hearing Obama and his thoughtful answers. Stump Speak was not what he wanted.

I think the WARMONGERING did not impress Warren either.

[grantcart]

13. I can't get the clip to run can you give us a summary?

[ClayZ]

21. Stewardship and Influence

He spoke about how we influence people. He goes on to explain that all contacts with people have the chance to be for GOOD.
He even mentions our EMAILS and gossip in the same paragraph.

He talks about STEWARDSHIP: What we do with what we have.
He explains: RECOGNIZE YOUR INFLUENCE (that is when he speaks of email and GOSSIP)

My take is that it was a direct message to those who spread DISINFORMATION.

[CitizenPatriot]

41. as in, gossip is bad and so are those nasty emails?

that's christian, finally.


someone said this earlier:
"I think he's just a garden variety fundy who has read the Barna Group surveys and knows that overt bigotry doesn't sell like it used to."

You know, change doesn't always come from the heart -- but it's still worthwhile. When we don't tolerate or buy bigotry, it can't be sold to us anymore. This is a very positive change. There is hope.

[1Hippiechick]

34. Here's the unofficial transcript that I posted earlier today....

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=132x6650387

[joeybee12]

15. I see Warren and my gaydar goes off...

...just waiting for the homosexual sex scandal to erupt at his church just like it seems to do for all evangelicals.

[jefferson_dem]

18. He's also going to be on Larry King Live tomorrow.

Watch for him to not play favorites.

[rucky]

33. I declare Warren the winner of the Faith Forum. n/t

[1Hippiechick]

36. Wondering what Dirtdobber Dobson has to say about all this....Warren stole his thunder,

so to speak. I was beginning to think that Dobson was making himself the self-appointed Evangelical spokesperson of the people.

[rucky]

37. He's too busy beating his kids to notice.

If we have to pick our poison, it's Warren by a yardstick.

[1Hippiechick]

50. ROFL! n/t