SOME of the Swifters Are Just Hurt/Bitter. Would JK Face Time Help?

[UTUSN]

It was hopeful when William ROOD came forward with his firsthand account supporting JK. But it's a vain hope that the anti-KERRY vets can be "defeated". They will just hold on, like KORESH or any number of others who canNOT, will NOT be reasoned with.

There is no doubt that there is a core element among them who are unscrupulous partisans, who are manipulating and exploiting the others.

But I think some of the others really are just plain HURT. Would it heal anything for ANY of them if JK would meet personally, IN PRIVATE with whoever would agree to meet and talk?

*******QUOTE*******

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/5775634/

Some veterans still bitter at talk of crimes
Senator's activism made a lasting impression
By Josh White and Brian Faler

Updated: 12:02 a.m. ET Aug. 21, 2004
.... But while the group appears to be rooted in Republican politics and big money, several veterans who signed the letter said in interviews yesterday that they are casually into politics and generally are not convinced that Kerry is lying, but they do not like the candidate because of his polarizing speeches in the 1970s.

Deeply hurt
James Zumwalt, who attended the group's first news conference in May, said he joined the group solely to the set the record straight about the allegations of war crimes included in "Tour of Duty," a Douglas Brinkley book about Kerry's Vietnam service. Now, Zumwalt says, "I kind of have mixed feelings" about the tone of the group's attacks. "I would not try to question the awards given to him or his service." ....

"I wasn't there at the time that happened," said Tony Gisclair, a veteran from Poplarville, Miss., who signed the letter, referring to Kerry's combat in Vietnam. "But look at what the man said about us when he came back."

Tony Snesko, a veteran in Washington, D.C., said he was "devastated" by Kerry's antiwar efforts, prompting him to sign on to the group's anti-Kerry message. ....

--------2nd Item, James ZUMWALT, son of Admiral Elmo Z---------

http://www.ron-siddell.com/VietVetsAgainstKerry.htm

Vietnam Veterans Against Kerry
A band of brothers, but not the kind the candidate likes
National Review May 31, 2004 Issue
BYRON YORK

James Zumwalt knows the importance of his name. Son of the late Adm. Elmo Zumwalt... ....

But all were united in one thing: their anger at Kerry's claim, dating back to his testimony before Congress in 1971, that Americans had committed atrocities in Vietnam that "were not isolated incidents but crimes committed on a day-to-day basis with the full awareness of officers at all levels of command."

The veterans believed Kerry was lying back then, and their unhappiness with Kerry was rekindled when the charges were repeated in Tour of Duty, historian Douglas Brinkley's new book describing Kerry's wartime experiences. ....

-------3rd Item, Elmo Z Pins Silver Star on JK, Personally------

http://www.chicagotribune.com/news/local/chi-040821rood,1,2328121.story?coll=chi-news-hed

.... What we did on Feb. 28, 1969, was well in line with the tone set by our top commanders.

Zumwalt made that clear when he flew down to our base at An Thoi off the southern tip of Vietnam to pin the Silver Star on Kerry and assorted Bronze Stars and commendation medals on the rest of us. ....

********UNQUOTE*******

[Sparkly]

1. No -- They know the facts by now, and JK should ONLY debate Chimp

This is the Chimp's campaign, and Kerry is right to deal only with him, and call him out for hiding behind these liars.

It's been over three decades, and they need to grow up. The war WAS a mistake, the government DID lie, the effort DID fail, horrible things DID occur... Kerry was correct, and he is not the cause of the anti-military sentiment they ALL dealt with.

[UTUSN]

2. Good Points. Agreed.

Just to clarify, I didn't mean there should be a "debate". Just a private, closed door encounter group, where some of them would doubtlessly let loose on him. Sounds like some of them, like James Z. and others in this article might be reasoned with. I know that a lot of them, or most of them, absolutely can't be, no matter how much "proof" is put up.

[Sparkly]

3. Gotcha. If they were reasonable

it'd be possible that a conversation could help, but it's been so many years. They are rigid in the mindsets they had all those years ago.

[eleny]

4. It's an interesting proposal

If Kerry sought to reach some closure with them by offering to meet and discuss and they refused - well, they're further discredited.

The Swift Boat Vets have a dilema since some of their rabid Repuke supporters among the voting public would probably not want them to meet with him and some might. Darned if they do and darned if they don't accept an invitation offered in good faith. An invitation extended by Kerry to heal the wounds of all Vietnam vets is certainly a walk on the high road.

I don't know if these guys deserve his time, though.

[UTUSN]

5. That's Even Better, a Day of Reconciliation for All and Everything

[A_Possum]

6. For one thing, there aren't any "allegations of war crimes..."

In Brinkley's book.

But I think the IMPACT of Brinkley's book on these guys is being wildly overlooked. The NYT reported that Hoffman first got on the phone to start calling them AFTER HE READ BRINKLEY'S book.

Note that Hoffman, Elliott and Zumwalt all made positive statements about Kerry's medals in the past few years. But now, AFTER READING THE BOOK, they are all upset.

Well, it's my feeling, having read the book, that they are just pissed off because it takes a critical look at the absurd and pointless strategy of Operation Sealords, which they are directly responsible for.

It's not a hatchet job, by any means. But for people who are not accustomed to any direct criticism, it's common to feel outraged and hurt at anyone analyzing and critizing what you consider your best and most honest efforts. (I'm a published novelist, believe me, I know about this.)

O'Neill has an old vendetta, but the smearboat brass are mad about the book.

Nobody here (or anywhere it seems) is picking up on that. The "we're so hurt about what he said about us afterward" is just a smokescreen to make it look like righteous indignation.

They're pissed about what Brinkley said about them in the book.

I keep telling you guys to read it. Comes out in paperback in September.

[UTUSN]

7. The Article Zeroes in on the Book.

And somebody in the cable yak world made a point of mentioning that BRINKLEY has been hired as a contributor by (NBC? I think).

[A_Possum]

9. I'm curious, UTUSN...

Why these other guys (not the brass, the others) take what Kerry said after the war so personally? It was quite obvious in 1971, and equally obvious now if you actually read what Kerry said, that he was speaking of the Vietnam war as a whole. He mentions Hamburger Hill and etc., not the swift boats, in his speech. He talks about tactics and goals and that the men are being put in the untenable position of having to defend themselves in impossible and pointless situations, and that the "war crimes" come directly out of that.

To me, a civilian and a woman, Kerry's testimony simply overflowed with his love and concern for all of the men serving in Vietnam. That's how I read it. I never ever would have read it as an accusation or condemnation of what the soldiers had done. And so I'm somewhat with you, in that I think the guys who are so "hurt" are perhaps misunderstanding how Kerry's testimony comes across to those of us who weren't there.

All of that was going on at the same of the My Lai massacre being tried, as I understand it. So it has eerie parallels to Abu Graib today.

I have heard that the soldier who reported Abu Graib has had to go into hiding because of death threats. I'd like to hear the military perspective--obviously something like that reflects badly on everyone (heck, it reflects badly on ME, simply as an American) but does that mean from the soldiers' point of view, it should be hidden and never spoken about? That seems to me to be what these swiftboat guys are saying? That because they personally didn't see any atrocities in Vietnam (which I'm willing to believe), that nobody is allowed to say that ANY took place without hurting their feelings and reputations?

This is an honest question, though it's hard to articulate what I mean. Any comment you could make would be enlightening.

It seems to me self-evident that war "atrocities" are individually committed, but also that men and women can be put in situations in which they are likely to occur.

[UTUSN]

10. I Don't Know. But How the Military Handles Complainers

is with overwhelming authority. When military complainers will NOT stop, somebody who has authority OVER THEM, *and* who UNDERSTANDS what's going on, tells them to CUT THE CRAP! Thinking about it, this is what KERRY is telling Shrub to do, but it takes a bigger man than Shrub to do it.

Somebody sent me this:

************QUOTE********
You are welcome to use any/all of my essay which I am submitting to various media here in New England.


http://congress.org/congressorg/dbq/media /


SMEARGATE STEALING ELECTION 2004

All Americans should be outraged with the media and pundits for their incessant pandering of Swift Boat malarkey, now reduced to a Stink Boat of dying and decomposing lies. Many venomous vets have flip flopped; most accusations are hearsay; generals and more eyewitnesses are publicly supporting Kerry; one accuser is politically linked to the Bush Band; others like Thurlow and O’Neill have been incinerated; and the official records support Kerry.

Although an incestuous relationship between this Ship of Fools and Bush is as yet unproven, we know that under the law “silence means consent.” Therefore, Bush’s shameful refusals to condemn this nightmare of poisonous allegations is as an instigator and not an innocent bystander. Smeargate is the Bush reply to Kerry’s plea for a positive campaign predicated on the issues. It should be condemned by all patriotic Americans and especially by those of strong Christian values.

For G.W. Bush, who has a military record of cowardice and desertion, hatching a rotten egg like Smeargate is like embracing a live grenade. But he has no choice since the White House is one of only two groups calculating to benefit from this Borgia Bush Bandwagon: Those who need to cover-up the Bush record of failures and broken promises and prevent discussion of the real issues like Iraq, jobs, national security, etc. And those heroes dreaming that defeating Kerry will somehow ease their personal Vietnam demons.

Smeargate shamefully promotes a man who has consistently shafted and ignored veterans, inflicted a domestic policy of welfare for the upper 1%, and recklessly stupid “High Noon” foreign policies that are killing Americans, decreasing our security, and bankrupting the nation. The term “self-inflicted wound” actually describes the misinformed middle class citizen or emotionally vulnerable veteran supporting Bush.

True patriots never attack the views and personal military sacrifices of another veteran. They continue to do so as a betrayal of the contributions of all who have worn the uniform, and most specifically of those who have been decorated for heroic service.
********UNQUOTE**********

[Jade Fox]

8. Excellent point. But I wonder if they would have to admit it themselves..

that their motivation is emotional for any healing to happen. Personal
time with Kerry might force the issue.

[Southern Patriot]

15. I agree.

If done correctly this statement could do a GREAT DEAL of good.

For one thing, it'll show who's the true UNITER and who's the true DIVIDER.

See my post "What I'd like Kerry to say..."

[wildflower]

11. UTUSN, I've wondered the same thing, and

many months ago, before the SBVT came out, I remember some local veterans on the news being interviewed, saying they could never forgive Kerry for what they felt he had implied about them in 1971. They said they felt hurt and betrayed.

So when this SBVT stuff started to heat up, my first idea was:

What if Kerry came out and said publicly that he is sorry if anything he said that day in 1971 hurt his fellow veterans, and that it was not his intention. That his problem was with the leadership and what it had wrought.

I thought if done right, such a statement would give him the opportunity to:

1) Make parallels with the situation in Iraq today, putting the focus back on Bush's failed policies.

2) Make very clear exactly what he said in his Congress testimony that day (the media is only quoting selectively from it).

3) Help the veterans--including voting veterans--who were hurt by his statements understand his comments were never meant to denigrate their valorous service.

4) Show he is someone who, unlike Bush, can admit regret. (I don't want to say 'admit mistakes,' because this is not admitting a mistake, but rather clarifying his remarks and showing he is sorry if they hurt another).

5) Show he is human and compassionate. (To go along with (4), and to counter 'unlikeability' assertions.)

Thinking more about it, though, the above could be an opportunity for the Rs to try to spin him as "weak" (how anyone can perceive someone who willingly went to Vietnam this way is beyond me), or "sensitive," or <fill in epithet>.

I do believe that hurt and/or fear underlies most anger.

-wildflower

[wildflower]

13. Something I forgot to add here...

and it was the most important part, but it's too late to edit my own post. (Kicking myself and can't find an emoticon for embarrassment :). Still getting used to posting.)

Anyway, what I meant to add was this:

My idea was that Kerry would express regret for hurting the veterans by what he said (see previous post), but THEN, DIRECTLY addressing the SBVT, ask them in good conscience to "please stop saying things you know are not true."

Just as he did to George Bush at the Democratic National Convention. (IF there were a way he could do this in as public a forum. Would the press cover a press conference?)

In other words, bring the truth out into the open, with an honest, compassionate, direct, unequivocal appeal.

Thoughts?

-wildflower

[AndyTiedye]

12. They'll Support The Deserter over the War Hero

No way can we reach those people.

[UTUSN]

14. No Way We Can Reach Those People n/t

[UTUSN]

16. But Ain't It Just Like Us Libs to Keep Masochistically Kicking Ourselves?