The difference in attitudes at websites and forums is astounding.

[madfloridian]

This post at Daily Kos speaking out passionately about privacy and the constitution has a list of recommends about a foot long. It has been near the top of the recommended list since last night.

http://www.dailykos.com/storyonly/2008/6/29/20378/5225/643/543446

Quite a difference from here. Some of us got the message...do not post any criticism of the candidate. Since posting about FISA is considered criticism of Obama..then I for one will not bother with weathering the attacks here. Not worth it.

I repeat...you can stop going into the old posts of mine on FISA and being ugly. I learned my lesson.

Read the post at Kos...not just the subject line. Then read the subject lines here. It is night and day.

Silence is golden.

[Seabiscuit]

1. Since January, DU

(or at least this forum) has become the McCarthyite wing of the party. The ugliness of those here who would stifle dissent is appalling.

K&R.

[roguevalley]

37. madfloridian, keep posting.

[Scriptor Ignotus]

44. there is a difference between constructive criticism

and people anonymously just slinging bullshit. i'm saying this in general, not related to you or even Obama-related threads.

I find that DU has very few constructive, helpful critiques about any progressive leader. But there are a few, and they are the main, if not sole reason I come to this site.

[QC]

2. The bullies have been in control of DU for about six months now.

It's hard to recognize this place anymore: it's become more like a church--what with all the accusations of heresy and apostasy and calls for absolute doctrinal orthodoxy--than a political forum.

[Phillycat]

16. Seconded.

:thumbsup:

[highplainsdem]

31. I agree.

[SaveOurDemocracy]

36. Exactly... and if it wasn't so damn scary, it might have

been amusing drawing parallels to the bush-bots, of whom they are so reminiscent.

[JohnnyLib2]

48. Wow, good description!

Sad, though.

[rodeodance]

50. well said. thanks

[LWolf]

52. Developed right along with the faith-based campaign

of the nominee.

Go figure.

[thewiseguy]

3. Somebody is concerned more about getting Recs and responses than sending a message

Is that why you post your FISA related threads on the presidential forum? To get more Recs?

I have often seen you replying to your own threads just to kick them up and get more recs. :shrug:

[Seabiscuit]

5. Sour grapes - this thread currently has more recs than responses.

[thewiseguy]

6. I was aware of that before I responded.

Your response had nothing to do with my post.

[TBF]

20. Yes I think we all understand about sour grapes.

[krkaufman]

53. Criticizing mf in this way reflects poorly ...

... on you, more than she. I can't think of a DU voice I respect as much as mf, and such petty, unsubstantiated snark is laughable.

[jakem]

4. i am concerned about concern.

:nopity:

[mopinko]

7. part of the rancor has to do with-

are we putting the entire weight of this thing on obama? or are we applying heat more evenly? until he is elected, he is just another senator. ok, not exactly, but you know what i mean.
also, we just need to find a way to be firm but respectful. not point any fingers, at you or anyone else. but until we get the guy elected, we should disagree respectfully. threatening not to support him, or donate, or whatever? that it too much. there are a lot of dems that do not deserve the name, and we should treat them as what they are. but this guy is our next president, on our side.
i guess what i mean to say is- address the man with respect. address the issue with respect. and some sense of what is at stake. he is doing everything he can to end the bush regime. people need to stop acting like he is the # 1 collaborator.
argh. there is no right answer here.

[mrbluto]

10. Can't be #1 collaborator - that spot is reserved for Lieberman

then Pelosi, then who is it? Reid? I forget the order of succession.

But don't worry - that will all be changed once Obama is president.

[krkaufman]

58. There is a broad spectrum between "#1 collaborator" ...

... a position that I believe is unquestionably held by Joe Lieberman ... and "doing everything he can to end the bush regime."

Obama is at neither end of this spectrum.

[mrbluto]

8. Your post on KOs would be funny...

...if it weren't so sadly true.

I did have to laugh though - you got the tone down right. The quotes caught me off-guard as I was bracing myself for some sort of blacklist ala' McCarthy.

[madfloridian]

9. It's not my post. I wish it were. I would be proud to claim it.

.

[mrbluto]

11. Ah. Still a demonstration of editorial taste.

Which is rare around these parts.

[blogslut]

12. Have you joined that group @ barackobama.com

?

[mrbluto]

13. You know what makes these guys melt away?

I ask them to google what I've said and to quote "a single negative thing" I've said about our presumptive nominee, Obama.

They all the the text equivalent of mattering to themselves and taper-off - or try to wrenchingly change the subject.

But I'm almost with you on the "not worth it" opinion.

Just still...hope some people might be heartened by witnessing someone not drink the koolaide.

[JohnnyLib2]

49. right here.

:hi:

[CrispyQ]

14. Nice.

The liberties of a people never were, nor ever will be, secure, when the transactions of their rulers may be concealed from them.

--Patrick Henry


Like you, I am extremely upset with Obama's stance on FISA. And like you, I've gotten the DU message that true democrats & patriots march lockstep with the candidate & party & "do whatever it takes to win," including selling out our values & betraying our Constitution. We'll hold Obama's feet to the fire after he wins. :eyes:

I'm still baffled that people think he's going to go left once he's in office. I suspect he's just another Drain-the-Swamp-Pelosi. I'll vote for him in November, cuz he's still a damn sight better than McCain, but he won't get any money or time from me. This party wants my time & money? They better start taking their oath to defend the Constitution seriously. They better start trying to keep my vote instead of pandering to a bunch of fucking right-of-center undecideds. I'll vote dem this year, but after that, I'm going third party. I'm sick of voting for the lesser of two evils & getting the same old shit. Clearly, my vote doesn't make a damned bit of difference one way or the other so I just as well throw it away on something I believe in.

Did you catch this article on Common Dreams?


Primary Over, Hillary Won
by Dave Lindorff

snip...

Now that the primary season is over, we can see that the clear winner was Hillary Clinton.

Oh, I know. Barack Obama got the most votes and the most delegates, and he’ll be the Democratic presidential nominee this August, but increasingly, it’s becoming obvious that he’s just a pretty wrapper. Sneak a peak inside the wrapper and you’ll find Hillary Clinton inside.

later in the article...

The joke, of course, is that this evocation by Obama of his inner Clinton is not going to win him many votes, and may in fact lose him far more than he gains. Being Clinton, after all, didn’t win it for Hillary Clinton. It was Obama¹s differences from Clinton that won him the primary votes.

more at link: http://www.commondreams.org/archive/2008/06/28/9954/

[madfloridian]

15. You should read this post..

by paradox at Left Coaster. Oh, and Lindorff has some good points.


http://www.theleftcoaster.com/archives/012775.php

[bbgrunt]

17. no, silence is NOT golden--it is the fastest

path to ruin......do not go silent into that good night.....

I love and appreciate your threads, madf. But it definitely is becoming harder to have a discussion when so many want everyone to salute and goosestep. Makes you wonder what their real agenda is.

I am a cat person myself and I know that they must be respected, not dominated.

[qwlauren35]

46. I'm clear on my agenda.

I want Obama to win.

I remember when so many people thought Clinton would be "liberal", and how disappointed they were when he ended up moderate. I don't have any illusions about Obama. He'll be centrist, because he wants to be able to work with Republicans. That was the cornerstone of his early campaign. Someone who could be bipartisan.

How can ANYONE think that such a man would be liberal? Or not willing to compromise if it could deliver the greater good?

Here's the thing about the FISA on DU that bugs me. It's ALL OVER THE PLACE. The "I'm mad at Obama" threads just keep popping up like weeds.

It's like the Obama/Hillary "debates". It gets old fast. But for some reason, it's still ever present.

Yes, I get tired of it.

But I'll add that things were just like this 4 years ago. I was a Dean supporter, and was told to get on board with Kerry. I didn't like Kerry that much, but I got on board with the "saluting and goosestepping". Because I didn't want Bush to win.

What I really wish is that those who are independent say so up front. Those who are Green or Leaning Green, say so up front. It's a lot easier to respect someone who says they are independent than someone who plays the disgruntled Democrat.

[Douglas Carpenter]

18. Kick and recommended -- very important !!!!!

[BzaDem]

19. The problem isn't criticism of FISA.

The reason why there is heightened scrutiny of posts that are directly negative about Obama is because of what happened in 2000, and in general what happened over the last 4 decades (where Republicans have won 7/10 presidential elections). Republicans (for better or worse) know how to unite around a candidate (at least in the past, for the most part), and they win more often than we do. Your posts don't directly criticize Obama. But when there are posts saying that it isn't worth it anymore to vote for Obama if x or y or z, it reminds people of Nader and 2000.

And then anyone who starts criticizing Obama (fairly or not) is treated the same way. There is much hostility towards anyone who might support Obama less because of this (not just criticize, but actually support them less in terms of time/donations/etc), and it unfortunately causes people to immediately have a hostile reaction againts anyone criticizing Obama (and by extension, criticizing FISA, which he is voting for).

For some (who say that they will support Obama less, or not at all, or threaten to not at all), I think it is deserved, while for others, it is not. I'm not innocent of unfair criticism, and I try to see the difference between policy level criticism and harsh personal candidate level criticism.

[madfloridian]

21. Well, they sure as heck don't have to worry about me.

Cause I won't do it anymore.

[rodeodance]

22. your's was policy level constuctive crique. Now its gone to the wind.

[anonymous171]

23. You know why the RW has had control over Washington for so long? It's called "LOCKSTEP"

[Danger Mouse]

24. Yeah, but you keep on flogging this dead horse...

[madfloridian]

25. It's not dead. It will pass.

This post is comparing two websites.

Are you going to hush me up on everything?

Sounds like it.

[Danger Mouse]

27. No. I like your posts, generally. I thought you did awesome stuff with the Florida debacle.

[madfloridian]

29. But you want me silenced on FISA.

I got the message loudly. I am letting it go.

And when our Democrats beat the drums for Iran, I hope some here will have the courage to speak.

[Danger Mouse]

40. You misunderstand me...

I don't want you 'silenced.' I don't alert on your posts, I don't tell you to STFU, I don't threaten you with ts'ing, insult you, accuse you of being a concern troll or freeper or anything like that.

[madfloridian]

41. Well now...funny about beating that dead horse thing.

Stupid me... I just assumed you thought I was posting too much about our constitutional rights.

[Danger Mouse]

42. I don't want to argue with you.

I, personally, think that this issue has been done to death. That's just my opinion. If you don't like it, disregard it. It's really not a big deal.

[jonestonesusa]

26. I appreciate your point of view and am behind on the DU debates.

I took a couple of weeks off after the primary season, and I have not followed the threads that discuss Obama's positions on FISA and on the death penalty ruling. Both of these positions by Obama were disappointments for me as a liberal outlier in the Democratic party and a strong supporter of Obama during the primaries. I will strongly support Obama's candidacy even as I criticize stances that I think are incorrect to take.

I hope that you will not let the personal criticism get to you too much and that you will continue to initiate thoughtful discussion on the important issues of our time as well as Obama's specific positions.

I have consistently been of the point of view that the two least appreciated constituencies of the Democratic party have been liberals and African Americans, both of which are indispensible parts of the Democratic party base. I think that the Democratic party should support these constituencies by working for a high turnout among them as well as standing on principle as much as possible in a divided political climate. I understand that Dems need crossover votes to win, no question, but I also think that the only reasonable choice was to push against weakening of the rule of law in the FISA case and in the death penalty case, and I don't think it's good electoral strategy to run and hide on these issues. I appreciate your references to places where I can see varied opinions on these topics, even if the Democratic nominee is criticized.

You have my support in your desire for open discussion that is fair and informative even if critical. None of us are moderators, and we're all here to support Democratic values and the Democratic nominee, but I don't want your voice to be silenced even when it's a dissenting voice.

[rox63]

28. I think it's valid to criticize Obama's position on FISA

But I'm still going to support Obama over McCain. Anyone using this as a reason to not vote in November, or to vote for McCain is a fool.

[madfloridian]

30. I never criticized Obama, just Democrats. But it did not matter in the end.

The silencers are louder and they won.

[Coexist]

32. I profoundly disagree with your premise

my frustration with DU is that McCain is not attacked much, Obama is always.

I go to many websites everyday and there are always anti-McCain headlines, posts, rec'd threads, diaries recommending other downticket candidates, and some mention of what they don't like about Obama.

Anti-Obama threads came to be the norm here, and some of us who would like that negative attention focused on McCain and the Republicans fought back against the "Concern-Mania" here.

[madfloridian]

34. So I quit posting about FISA and quit criticizing Dems.

As people wanted.

[highplainsdem]

33. K & R

[ShaneGR]

35. This is just another anti-Democrat thread of some kind...

Three today... dozens and dozens before it. Nothing new.

[madfloridian]

38. Why don't you keep track and report me? Keep track of all criticism

Let's keep track of all criticisms.

[Buzz Clik]

55. No one is reporting you -- you reported yourself.

Just go for it. Take this as far as you can.

Christ, it's been my impression from Day 1 that DU represents little in the Democratic Party and represents nothing of the real world.

So, in the words from the link in your OP, take your Purists and quote them to yourself until hell freezes over. Do everything you can to unravel what's been done in getting Obama this far, and be ready to live with the consequences.

[ulysses]

43. "of some kind"?

What kind would it be?

[newmajority]

51. The OP is not "anti-Democrat"

Can't say the same about a few others in this thread though. It's up to you to figure out who, but I can give you a link that might help clarify it. :evilgrin:

[GoldieAZ49]

39. constitutional rights are no longer the fad

out righting the right is

[Iris]

57. God, that's depressing.

And aren't we at a point where that's not necessary? The right has proven that their ideas are meritless and they just don't work. How come no one's selling THAT idea? The examples are all around us.

[tnlefty]

45. I truly appreciate your posts!

Even moreso these days as we have many local races going on and I'm busy and it's convenient for me to search out your posts to get the background for issues going on that I've missed. I'm not on DU that much lately and I really don't have time to go surfing.

I can criticize democrats when I don't like their behavior, and still work to build the party. :hug:

[depakid]

47. Folks over at the Smirking chimp aren't too happy, either

They make my criticisms here look mild.

http://www.smirkingchimp.com/thread/15566

[Buzz Clik]

54. I like it! This is so fucking predictable: Democrats self-destruct in a slam dunk election.

Keep it coming. Help usher in the FOURTH Bush term of office.

[krkaufman]

60. There is no such thing as a "slam dunk election" ...

... as has been demonstrated most recently in 2000 and 2004. Democrats start from a hole every 2 years owing to slanted news coverage and the media's deeply flawed repository of "conventional wisdom."

But Democrats do themselves no favors by altering positions and backing-off from taking strong stands on issues, as such moves are often perceived as weakness.

[Buzz Clik]

61. It's far more productive to continue the destruction of the candidate started in the primaries.

How silly of me.

The Republicans essentially hate McCain, but his numbers among Republicans don't show it. He's only three points behind Obama in many polls.

Yet, the Democrats who didn't support Obama in the primaries refuse to back off.

Idiocy. Pure idiocy.

[Marrah_G]

56. Being bullied day in and day out is not fun, is it?

After 4 or 5 months of it you become Immune, so don't worry. Just ask any Hillary supporter.

[kevinmc]

59. I see in the Comments that the same suspects sound like they did in the Primary ... n/t

[Autumn]

62. All tyranny needs to gain a foothold is for people

of good conscience to remain silent -- Thomas Jefferson. madfloridian, please don't be silent.:hug: Maybe I havn't always agreed with everyhing you have said but I sure do agree with your passion for it.