THANK YOU, OBAMA: Obama tells black men to accept responsibility.....

[Greenwood]

My work for the past 17 months gives me a first-hand look at the the heart-breaking situation the American black family with absent fathers today faces. Currently, 70% of black babies are born out of wedlock. How can that happen? Why does that happen? It is a tragedy that has led many young people down the wrong road.

I have long said if Martin Luther King were alive today and could address America I think he would put the black family and absent father at the top of his talk. Sadly, it is an issue that few have the guts to address.

I supported Hillary but have long said I will support Obama come Novemeber. His call today makes me feel even better about him.

http://www.nytimes.com/2008/06/16/us/politics/16obama.html?_r=1&adxnnl=1&oref=slogin&ref=politics&adxnnlx=1213639550-y+1yxNlD5uI86IgI0i0Wkg

[madeline_con]

1. I have to agree. From all I've read just in the field of education...

It seems to be a root cause of a lot of the problems in the demographically poor areas.


"Mr. Obama directly addressed one of the most delicate topics confronting black leaders: how much responsibility absent fathers bear for some of the intractable problems afflicting black Americans."

[Greenwood]

2. It is heartbreaking......

It makes me incredibly mad and IT IS A CRIME THAT MORE SO-CALLED BLACK LEADERS DO NOT ADDRESS THIS ISSUE. IT IS TEARING THE BLACK COMMUNITY TO PIECES.

Thank you, Obama.

PLEASE KEEP SAYING IT.

[Liberal_Stalwart71]

13. Indeed they do. Go to any black church on any given Sunday and you'll hear it.

And contrary to popular belief, most blacks agree with Bill Cosby and others, including Jesse and Al, who have spoken out against absent black fathers.

[chimpymustgo]

160. You know what's HEARTBREAKING? You, Obama and Bill Cosby piling on black men and blaming them for

their poverty.

No. It's infuriating.

[kimmylavin]

230. What?

How is being poor an excuse for not being in your children's lives?

[EFerrari]

242. And when did you stop beating your wife?

[kimmylavin]

247. I don't even know what you mean by that...

[EFerrari]

248. It's called a loaded question.

"How is being poor an excuse for not being in your children's lives?"

You pile assumption on assumption and wind up with a question that bears little resemblance to reality.

[kimmylavin]

250. I know its a loaded question.

I still have no idea what you meant by it.

The poster commented on "You, Obama and Bill Cosby piling on black men and blaming them for their poverty."

And I asked how poverty was an excuse for being an absent father.
One can be poor and still be in their children's lives.
I have no idea how I managed to pile "assumption on assumption" in asking my question.

And I have NO IDEA how what I said bears "little resemblance to reality".
My grandparents were dirt poor, but my grandfather still managed to spend time with his children.
So again, I ask: "How is being poor an excuse for not being in your children's lives?"

If I'm missing something here, perhaps you'd prefer to try to educate me, rather than insult me...

[EFerrari]

252. The poster didn't claim that poverty was an "excuse" for

being an absent father.

[kimmylavin]

258. Excuse, reason - whichever.

Let's refresh...

The OP was thanking Obama for bringing up absent fathers as an issue.
Someone commented that its heartbreaking that more leaders do not bring up this issue.
The poster wrote: "You know what's HEARTBREAKING? You, Obama and Bill Cosby piling on black men and blaming them for their poverty."

Blaming them for their poverty in the face of the absent father issue?

AGAIN, I ask - how does poverty come into play here???

[EFerrari]

259. You might want to carefully reread the OP

which singled out black fathers, not poor fathers. Obama didn't do that, the OP did it.

And if you are able to do that, you might want to reflect on, or even, learn something about black families in America before you spew cr@p about how poor families should stay together -- no matter that they can't and survive. And no matter that your government has been breaking these families up since the end of the Civil War -- oh, and since before the Civil War, too.

Is that as clear as possible? If not, I'll be happy to rephrase for you.

[kimmylavin]

260. Oh, my head.

You might want to carefully read the attached article, in which Obama DID single out black fathers.
However, I never did that - I only addressed the issue of absentee fathers.

I never said anything about black families!
I offered the opportunity for you to "educate" me!
I never said that poor families should stay together!
I don't even know WHAT the hell you're talking about regarding "my" government!
And what the hell does the Civil War have to do with this???

Its not at all clear.
Please don't bother to rephrase.
You are obviously involved in a discussion with someone else, as nothing you've said comes to bear at ALL on this issue.

[Adelante]

3. What about white men who are absent fathers?

I had trouble with the video and wondered if this talk was strictly to black men, although the coverage seems to be all that, or to all men.

[Shakespeare]

4. Here are his words from the speech:

But if we are honest with ourselves, we’ll admit that what too many fathers also are is missing – missing from too many lives and too many homes. They have abandoned their responsibilities, acting like boys instead of men. And the foundations of our families are weaker because of it.

You and I know how true this is in the African-American community. We know that more than half of all black children live in single-parent households, a number that has doubled – doubled – since we were children. We know the statistics – that children who grow up without a father are five times more likely to live in poverty and commit crime; nine times more likely to drop out of schools and twenty times more likely to end up in prison. They are more likely to have behavioral problems, or run away from home, or become teenage parents themselves. And the foundations of our community are weaker because of it.

[Adelante]

15. Thank you nt

[LordJFT]

95. Is it wrong that the statistic that jumped out at me most

is that the children are only five times more likely to commit a crime, but twenty times more likely to end up in prison? It seems to me the criminal justice system is just as much at fault as the fathers.

[Hippo_Tron]

137. I noticed that too

Obama definitely isn't wrong, but the criminal justice system (particularly the war on drugs) is seriously messed up in this country.

[chimpymustgo]

163. He should have preached his SERMON against the criminal justice system, don't you think?

A system with the power to affect change and undo the horrific damage it has done to black men, in particular.

[goclark]

164. It was Father's Day

So his message at the predominately African American church was about FATHERS.

[chimpymustgo]

169. What about the MANY black fathers who have had opportunities, who have struggled to keep

families together?

Isn't Father's Day, the day we CELEBRATE fathers? Not throw the beatdown. It was a political cheap shot, and it nearly makes me cry with shame and disappointment.

[goclark]

253. I'm Black and I didn't cry...

In fact, I was glad that he spoke up about an issue that runs throughout our community and needs to be addressed so strongly.


I agree with the post below.....
Median Democrat (347 posts) Mon Jun-16-08 11:31 AM
Response to Original message
6. That's the MSM Media Spin Again - It Was Directed To All Fathers...
Though there was a focus on the AA community, since he was speaking at an African American congregation

[Hippo_Tron]

166. IMO he should give both speeches

[EFerrari]

245. His frame was much larger than that. He singled out the black community

because he was speaking at one of their venues. The MSM took it as calling out black fathers, which it was not.

[Greenwood]

5. Agreed. However, 70% of black babies are born out of wedlock today.....

That is almost too hard to fathom.

What has happened? My God, what has happened to the black family today?

[uponit7771]

19. Link and quote some CREDIBLE source not a racist Reich wing one.

[leftynyc]

70. Here ya go

http://www.cdc.gov/nchs/data/statab/natfinal2002.annvol1_17.pdf


Thanks to DUer IEOEJA for posting in another thread

[wvbygod]

96. WTF? Obama is a "Reich wing source" to you?

Is civility just an after thought at times?

[grantcart]

114. migration of good paying manufacturing jobs undermined the ability of AA men

who had little education to have good solid paychecks. The dominoes fell after that.

[Freddie Stubbs]

186. Kids having babies

Often fathered by older men.

[wvbygod]

7. Are absent white fathers anywhere near 70%

I don't know but I doubt it or it would be brought up too.

[leftynyc]

73. According to the link I put above

(from the CDC) - whites 28.5%, blacks 68.4%

[Hieronymus]

102. Obama started clearly that more black fathers are absent .. you disagree?

[Adelante]

130. I didn't hear the speech, so I asked nt

[pink-o]

194. Well, his own sure was

didn't it occur to those who're calling him out that he's speaking from PERSONAL experience???

[Median Democrat]

6. That's the MSM Media Spin Again - It Was Directed To All Fathers...

Though there was a focus on the AA community, since he was speaking at an African American congregation.

[Shakespeare]

8. Not really. I posted his words upthread.

I thought it was spin as well, until I was able to sit down last night and watch the speech. Obama did single them out.

[niceypoo]

11. He was talking to the AA community, where this is a huge problem...

Bill Cosby has been saying the exact same thing. Having an African American president would go a long way towards helping reverse this sad fact.

For whatever reason, there is a hesitancy to admit certain racial issues in this country.

[jonestonesusa]

17. Ever hear of the Million Man March?

Even the perennial pariah Louis Farrakhan recognized this issue of single parenthood in black communities and led a well known direct action with it in mind. Plenty of national conversation has focused on this since the 1960s.

It's an important issue to emphasize, but there is no conspiracy of silence about this issue. That's a talking point that helped bring us welfare reform, the drug war, and other anti-humanitarian policies and disinvestment in black communities.

[JuniperLea]

40. Cosby has been under attack for that too...

He did a great job talking about this and explaining the criticism on several PBS shows in the past couple of years. I especially appreciated his appearance on Tavis Smiley's show:


http://www.pbs.org/kcet/tavissmiley/archive/200405/20040526.html

[Mike Daniels]

48. Yet many people called out Bill Cosby for saying the same thing

Not sure what to make of that but I'd love to see the logic in the thinking of "Bill Cosby - bad" but "Obama - good."

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

91. Bill Cosby got called out for a lot of things.

Such as blaming the problems of African American names on the non-conformist names African Americans give their children.

Or the blaming the shooting of a small child by police officers on the small child.

[BklynChick]

158. because Bill Cosby never ever talked about the underlying societal and institional

injustices along with the message of personal responsibility. Obama always talks about them hand in hand.

[theboss]

170. Easy. Cosby pointed a finger and scolded black people for wearing baggy pants

Cosby was correct in identifying a problem. His solution was to yell at people and essentially tell them to act "whiter."

Obama identifies a problem and offers real discussion and solutions.

[Cnote1]

196. Agreed Bill Cosby Used important Social Issues

To Point out his hatred for hip hop music and a culture blaming it for all of Black Americas problems. Because he is ignorant to hip hop as a culture and doesn't want or care to understand about it, he saw no problem blaming it for everything. Rather than pointing out true community issues that faces inner city communities

[JeanGrey]

212. A point I just made upthread.

[ProSense]

20. Agree. He mentioned African Americans, but it was a message to all Americans.

Remarks of Senator Barack Obama

(As prepared for delivery)

Apostolic Church of God

Sunday, June 15th, 2009

Chicago, IL

Good morning. It’s good to be home on this Father’s Day with my girls, and it’s an honor to spend some time with all of you today in the house of our Lord.

At the end of the Sermon on the Mount, Jesus closes by saying, “Whoever hears these words of mine, and does them, shall be likened to a wise man who built his house upon a rock: the rain descended, and the floods came, and the winds blew, and beat upon that house, and it fell not, for it was founded upon a rock.”

Here at Apostolic, you are blessed to worship in a house that has been founded on the rock of Jesus Christ, our Lord and Savior. But it is also built on another rock, another foundation – and that rock is Bishop Arthur Brazier. In forty-eight years, he has built this congregation from just a few hundred to more than 20,000 strong – a congregation that, because of his leadership, has braved the fierce winds and heavy rains of violence and poverty; joblessness and hopelessness. Because of his work and his ministry, there are more graduates and fewer gang members in the neighborhoods surrounding this church. There are more homes and fewer homeless. There is more community and less chaos because Bishop Brazier continued the march for justice that he began by Dr. King’s side all those years ago. He is the reason this house has stood tall for half a century. And on this Father’s Day, it must make him proud to know that the man now charged with keeping its foundation strong is his son and your new pastor, Reverend Byron Brazier.

Of all the rocks upon which we build our lives, we are reminded today that family is the most important. And we are called to recognize and honor how critical every father is to that foundation. They are teachers and coaches. They are mentors and role models. They are examples of success and the men who constantly push us toward it.

But if we are honest with ourselves, we’ll admit that what too many fathers also are is missing – missing from too many lives and too many homes. They have abandoned their responsibilities, acting like boys instead of men. And the foundations of our families are weaker because of it.

You and I know how true this is in the African-American community. We know that more than half of all black children live in single-parent households, a number that has doubled – doubled – since we were children. We know the statistics – that children who grow up without a father are five times more likely to live in poverty and commit crime; nine times more likely to drop out of schools and twenty times more likely to end up in prison. They are more likely to have behavioral problems, or run away from home, or become teenage parents themselves. And the foundations of our community are weaker because of it.

How many times in the last year has this city lost a child at the hands of another child? How many times have our hearts stopped in the middle of the night with the sound of a gunshot or a siren? How many teenagers have we seen hanging around on street corners when they should be sitting in a classroom? How many are sitting in prison when they should be working, or at least looking for a job? How many in this generation are we willing to lose to poverty or violence or addiction? How many?

Yes, we need more cops on the street. Yes, we need fewer guns in the hands of people who shouldn’t have them. Yes, we need more money for our schools, and more outstanding teachers in the classroom, and more afterschool programs for our children. Yes, we need more jobs and more job training and more opportunity in our communities.

But we also need families to raise our children. We need fathers to realize that responsibility does not end at conception. We need them to realize that what makes you a man is not the ability to have a child – it’s the courage to raise one.

We need to help all the mothers out there who are raising these kids by themselves; the mothers who drop them off at school, go to work, pick up them up in the afternoon, work another shift, get dinner, make lunches, pay the bills, fix the house, and all the other things it takes both parents to do. So many of these women are doing a heroic job, but they need support. They need another parent. Their children need another parent. That’s what keeps their foundation strong. It’s what keeps the foundation of our country strong.

I know what it means to have an absent father, although my circumstances weren’t as tough as they are for many young people today. Even though my father left us when I was two years old, and I only knew him from the letters he wrote and the stories that my family told, I was luckier than most. I grew up in Hawaii, and had two wonderful grandparents from Kansas who poured everything they had into helping my mother raise my sister and me – who worked with her to teach us about love and respect and the obligations we have to one another. I screwed up more often than I should’ve, but I got plenty of second chances. And even though we didn’t have a lot of money, scholarships gave me the opportunity to go to some of the best schools in the country. A lot of kids don’t get these chances today. There is no margin for error in their lives. So my own story is different in that way.

Still, I know the toll that being a single parent took on my mother – how she struggled at times to the pay bills; to give us the things that other kids had; to play all the roles that both parents are supposed to play. And I know the toll it took on me. So I resolved many years ago that it was my obligation to break the cycle – that if I could be anything in life, I would be a good father to my girls; that if I could give them anything, I would give them that rock – that foundation – on which to build their lives. And that would be the greatest gift I could offer.

I say this knowing that I have been an imperfect father – knowing that I have made mistakes and will continue to make more; wishing that I could be home for my girls and my wife more than I am right now. I say this knowing all of these things because even as we are imperfect, even as we face difficult circumstances, there are still certain lessons we must strive to live and learn as fathers – whether we are black or white; rich or poor; from the South Side or the wealthiest suburb.

The first is setting an example of excellence for our children – because if we want to set high expectations for them, we’ve got to set high expectations for ourselves. It’s great if you have a job; it’s even better if you have a college degree. It’s a wonderful thing if you are married and living in a home with your children, but don’t just sit in the house and watch “SportsCenter” all weekend long. That’s why so many children are growing up in front of the television. As fathers and parents, we’ve got to spend more time with them, and help them with their homework, and replace the video game or the remote control with a book once in awhile. That’s how we build that foundation.

We know that education is everything to our children’s future. We know that they will no longer just compete for good jobs with children from Indiana, but children from India and China and all over the world. We know the work and the studying and the level of education that requires.

You know, sometimes I’ll go to an eighth-grade graduation and there’s all that pomp and circumstance and gowns and flowers. And I think to myself, it’s just eighth grade. To really compete, they need to graduate high school, and then they need to graduate college, and they probably need a graduate degree too. An eighth-grade education doesn’t cut it today. Let’s give them a handshake and tell them to get their butts back in the library!

It’s up to us – as fathers and parents – to instill this ethic of excellence in our children. It’s up to us to say to our daughters, don’t ever let images on TV tell you what you are worth, because I expect you to dream without limit and reach for those goals. It’s up to us to tell our sons, those songs on the radio may glorify violence, but in my house we live glory to achievement, self respect, and hard work. It’s up to us to set these high expectations. And that means meeting those expectations ourselves. That means setting examples of excellence in our own lives.

The second thing we need to do as fathers is pass along the value of empathy to our children. Not sympathy, but empathy – the ability to stand in somebody else’s shoes; to look at the world through their eyes. Sometimes it’s so easy to get caught up in “us,” that we forget about our obligations to one another. There’s a culture in our society that says remembering these obligations is somehow soft – that we can’t show weakness, and so therefore we can’t show kindness.

But our young boys and girls see that. They see when you are ignoring or mistreating your wife. They see when you are inconsiderate at home; or when you are distant; or when you are thinking only of yourself. And so it’s no surprise when we see that behavior in our schools or on our streets. That’s why we pass on the values of empathy and kindness to our children by living them. We need to show our kids that you’re not strong by putting other people down – you’re strong by lifting them up. That’s our responsibility as fathers.

And by the way – it’s a responsibility that also extends to Washington. Because if fathers are doing their part; if they’re taking our responsibilities seriously to be there for their children, and set high expectations for them, and instill in them a sense of excellence and empathy, then our government should meet them halfway.

We should be making it easier for fathers who make responsible choices and harder for those who avoid them. We should get rid of the financial penalties we impose on married couples right now, and start making sure that every dime of child support goes directly to helping children instead of some bureaucrat. We should reward fathers who pay that child support with job training and job opportunities and a larger Earned Income Tax Credit that can help them pay the bills. We should expand programs where registered nurses visit expectant and new mothers and help them learn how to care for themselves before the baby is born and what to do after – programs that have helped increase father involvement, women’s employment, and children’s readiness for school. We should help these new families care for their children by expanding maternity and paternity leave, and we should guarantee every worker more paid sick leave so they can stay home to take care of their child without losing their income.

We should take all of these steps to build a strong foundation for our children. But we should also know that even if we do; even if we meet our obligations as fathers and parents; even if Washington does its part too, we will still face difficult challenges in our lives. There will still be days of struggle and heartache. The rains will still come and the winds will still blow.

And that is why the final lesson we must learn as fathers is also the greatest gift we can pass on to our children – and that is the gift of hope.

I’m not talking about an idle hope that’s little more than blind optimism or willful ignorance of the problems we face. I’m talking about hope as that spirit inside us that insists, despite all evidence to the contrary, that something better is waiting for us if we’re willing to work for it and fight for it. If we are willing to believe.

I was answering questions at a town hall meeting in Wisconsin the other day and a young man raised his hand, and I figured he’d ask about college tuition or energy or maybe the war in Iraq. But instead he looked at me very seriously and he asked, “What does life mean to you?”

Now, I have to admit that I wasn’t quite prepared for that one. I think I stammered for a little bit, but then I stopped and gave it some thought, and I said this:

When I was a young man, I thought life was all about me – how do I make my way in the world, and how do I become successful and how do I get the things that I want.

But now, my life revolves around my two little girls. And what I think about is what kind of world I’m leaving them. Are they living in a county where there’s a huge gap between a few who are wealthy and a whole bunch of people who are struggling every day? Are they living in a county that is still divided by race? A country where, because they’re girls, they don’t have as much opportunity as boys do? Are they living in a country where we are hated around the world because we don’t cooperate effectively with other nations? Are they living a world that is in grave danger because of what we’ve done to its climate?

And what I’ve realized is that life doesn’t count for much unless you’re willing to do your small part to leave our children – all of our children – a better world. Even if it’s difficult. Even if the work seems great. Even if we don’t get very far in our lifetime.

That is our ultimate responsibility as fathers and parents. We try. We hope. We do what we can to build our house upon the sturdiest rock. And when the winds come, and the rains fall, and they beat upon that house, we keep faith that our Father will be there to guide us, and watch over us, and protect us, and lead His children through the darkest of storms into light of a better day. That is my prayer for all of us on this Father’s Day, and that is my hope for this country in the years ahead. May God Bless you and your children. Thank you.

[Adelante]

55. Thank you for the transcript, ProSense

I thought it must have been broader than I was seeing in the press.

[Kweli4Real]

231. And, as an African-American man ...

this is my growing problem with Obama ...It seems that the only place he lectures on the virtue of personal responsibility is before predominately African-American audiences; while his standard speech before predominately non-African-American audiences is about what he will do for us or what we can do together.:mad:

[Heather MC]

9. He also pointed out something else, Our biggest enemy is ourselves

I don't have the direct quote, but for me personally the biggest obstacle I had to over come, was all the black people telling me what I can't do.

I had a black guidance counselor tell me, not to bother hoping for a high score on the SAT's b/c Blacks traditionally don't score well on the SAT's. I was a straight A student!

I use to get picked on by other black students in my high school, because I was in Honors classes, I was accused of "acting white" because I wanted to do well in school.

In Middle school I was told I didn't "talk black". Almost everyday, my blackness was challenged because I wanted to excel.

I am not suggesting we need segregation but I often wonder how different my education would have been had I been in an all black school, with black teachers, and blacks in Leadership positions like teaching the Honors classes and being the principle.

When you are raised in the Ghetto as I was bused to the "white" school and taught that all blacks every were was slaves, and we caused political unrest. Of course I had the presents of mind to go seek out the truth myself. But it was very difficult and challenging trying to navigate to the positive in the sea of negativity I was surrounded by and raised in.

It's a part of black culture that is not talked about, the crabs in the bucket mentality, when one tries to crawl out the other crabs will pull you back down.

I hope Obama's words reach the up coming generation, that may be faced with the same challenges I was faced with.

[Greenwood]

10. My hope is Obama will be an inspiration to those fathers....

who have acted so selfishly.

I have hope in this guy and I am counting on him.

[SteveM]

14. Nearly a half century ago Malcolm X was saying much the same thing (nt)

[JuniperLea]

45. Yep... too bad we forget history so easily...

Malcolm X and Martin Luther King, Jr. have been forgotten. We celebrate, without remembering, and it's really sad.

[Raejeanowl]

249. How Dare You Be Different?

You uppity traitor, you. Thank God you believed in yourself.

Crabs in a bucket-love the analogy.

[Liberal_Stalwart71]

12. The absence of black men also poses problems for black women

who are doing well and want to get married. Black women are the least likely to get married, particularly if they are college educated and especially as they attain higher income. I don't want to think about it because it makes me depressed. :(

[crankychatter]

33. When my friends tell me they're lonely, I suggest they do what I always do

...lower their standards.

:-)

speaking of lowering standards... crankychatter is available for dating

[Heather MC]

69. Do what I did, get a white Husband!

[leftynyc]

74. I know this is a personal question

so you can tell me to stuff it if you like but I'm wondering what kind of opposition you found to that amongst family, friends, church, community.

[Heather MC]

142. That's not a stuff it question, It's a fair question.

My family and friends didn't care, we have more white people in our family than black!
And I mostly dated white guys anyway. Wasn't my plan, but black guys never seemed interested in me
Oh well I got over it.

My husband's family struggled with it rather openly (that's putting it nicely)
But, my husband and I never disrespected them. And eventually they got to the point where they tell me they love me. We have been happily married for 7 years.

We didn't attend church before we got married, when we started going to church we found a predominantly black church that we like, and my husband played the trumpet their for years, we joke that he is the great white beacon for others LOL. Shameless I know but we always laugh about this.

Community wise. Where we live, same race couples are hard to find. People don't care much.

Now I do get asked if I am a nanny to my sons, that's always fun. My oldest son has blonde hair and blue eyes, and is lighter than my husband, my baby has blonde hair, but he caught a drop of color so he looks spanish, either way I look like I am baby sitting, I am ok with that.

[leftynyc]

189. Thanks for answering

I know some people are loathe to give personal information even if it in no way identifies them. I asked because I knew several mixed race families growing up (we're going back to the 70's here) and I was just curious how much has changed. Thankfully, it seems things have changed quite a bit although that nanny thing must be irritating.

[Heather MC]

268. "although that nanny thing must be irritating."

Not really I find it enjoyable to watch people making a fool of themselves, expecting me and my family to live in the box of comfortablity they have created for themselves.

Besides where I live most of the families in my neighborhood, have african or black nannies. So I understand why the make that assumption.
I have noticed sometimes when I take my kids to the park, the moms will not talk to me b/c they think I am a nanny, and the nannies don't talk to me b/c they know I am a mom.
Find with me I usually am running around the playground playing with my kids too.
You should see the looks I get when I do back flips off the swing and run up the slide backwards. The other moms hate me, because then their kids are like "Mommy you have to come play with us too"

Who knew being a good mom could be sweet revenage!

[leftynyc]

271. Your kids are very lucky to have

a mom with her head so straight. I hope the other moms are choking at both the great relationship you have with your kids and the stupidity of their own assumptions.

[TheDonkey]

85. a black woman is free to get any sort of husband she chooses, not just a white guy.

[Heather MC]

144. Of course we are! I was merely making a suggestion

I watched a 20/20 special years ago, and I remember they said "satisically black women marrying outside of the their race is out of the question"
so I was just throwing out an Option.

[Liberal_Stalwart71]

159. If they are interested in me then I'm interested in them. I have no problem dating outside my race

and have done so. :)

[alcibiades_mystery]

16. "it is an issue that few have the guts to address" (Complete nonsense)

This issue is constantly addressed within the black community. The notion that "few have the guts" to address it is completely laughable from a perspective of African American activism and rhetoric. Indeed, black self-criticism is and has been a common trope in African American communities as long as there have been African American communities. Of course, white folks are always shocked to see it (witness Chris Rock), and cheer it on as if it is "finally" being said. A ludicrous, ignorant, and extremely suspect sort of celebration, that.

[butterfly77]

30. You explain my thoughts perfectly...

[uponit7771]

18. I disagree with Obama on this issue, there's no credibile source for figures except stereotypes...

...again CREDIBLE not sources some racist like Bill OWrongly accepts and regurgitates leaving gating.

I've not seen ONE study on that subject that says such.

Could someone link and quote the study please.

Thank you in advance.

[Greenwood]

21. Good grief......Living in denial only makes the problem worse

Your head is buried in the sand or perhaps you are living in denial.

[uponit7771]

22. Thank you for sourcing the study (you didn't) and I don't agree with the figures I live around rich

...black people.

I don't see it, I'd like someone to source the study and not throw insults.

Thank you in advance.

[Shakespeare]

26. Wait: you don't believe it because you live around rich black people?

:wtf:

And they make up such a huge chunk of the black population, after all... :eyes:

[uponit7771]

31. No because you can't source up, and STILL haven't after a cople of replies. It's a racist

...stereotype and the fact that no one has sourced up (link and quote) after two years adds to my conclusion.

Thx for sourcing up in advance (the study, not someones quote)

[Shakespeare]

32. Check the other thread--Frenchie Cat sourced it. n/t

[uponit7771]

38. No she didn't she sourced an analysis NOT the study itself by PSID

[ieoeja]

64. Better hold off on your email campaign. Here is the requested link.

From the National Center for Health Statistics (NCHS) of the Center for Disease Control (CDC)

Number and Percent of Births to Unmarried Women, by Race and Hispanic Origin: United States, 1940-2002

http://www.cdc.gov/nchs/data/statab/natfinal2002.annvol1_17.pdf


This shows the percentages at 28.5% (White) and 68.2% (Black) for the most recent year reported. Not quite 75%. But in the ballpark.

[uponit7771]

75. This is the source that cites unmarried women vs men not present or babies born without fathers...

...present in their lives.

Not everyone is a Christian

I don't like that number either but it doesn't in any one mean those babies don't have their fathers present in their lives.

[Kahuna]

182. If you want to see it, go where the poor black people live. I can't believe

you said, you live around rich black people so it must not be true. Whew!

[uponit7771]

215. I didn't alway live around rich blacks and my family of working and poor balcks don't resemble what

...Obama was saying.

Bottom line, the CDC report isn't definitive and it's conjecture to say 70% of black babies born are without fathers present or 70% of black babies born don't have father present in the lives

[Bill McBlueState]

34. Someone asks for evidence and that's your reponse?

When you're making an argument, it severely weakens your case if you're unwilling or unable to substantiate your claim.

[uponit7771]

41. Yeap, I'm trying to get blacks who have a HORRIBLE self deprication problem, to THINK and challenge

...some of these studies.

A lot of things we take for face value without questioning...IWR :-)

[Phillycat]

59. Here

http://www.jstor.org/sici?sici=0009-3920(198504)56%3A2%3C326%3ASPEHAT%3E2.0.CO%3B2-J&cookieSet=1

[uponit7771]

65. That study doesn't site the 70% OF BLACKs born without fathers montra, I'm trying to get people

...to start to think about what they hear and where it comes from.

So far NO ONE (in 2 - 3 years) has been able to link AND quote me the PSID study without caveat and it's mostly because we take some things about blacks at face value.

[ieoeja]

68. See post #64 for a link from the CDC showing it at 68% in 2002. n/t

[Phillycat]

71. The Stanford article does have the figure.

Do you actually think Barack Obama and Bill Cosby would seek huge national (and global) audiences and cite an erroneous datum? That would never happen. Barack Obama has people who spend all their time checking to make sure that every word that comes out of his mouth is accurate. That's their job.

Besides, it's been cited by many, many respectable sources (NPR comes to mind).

[uponit7771]

76. I didn't read Obama citing the 70% quote as it was cited earlier in this thread, I don't listen to..

...Cosby, he lost a lot of credibility with me by starting with the least common denominator in the black community as if we're the ONLY ones who have them.

[Phillycat]

79. Okay, well, now that people have shown you the CDC link

multiple times in this thread, it's resolved, right? You accept the figure is accurate?

[uponit7771]

97. No the 70% born without father present or 70% of black fathers are absentee, I was addressing the 70

...70% figure and the only one the CDC represents are the "unmarried women" as if everyone wants to get married to have children.

The CDC and the racist ass'd PSID study doesn't address what the person early said about the 70% and not one study I've seen does.

The CDC is still alarming cause as a Christian I'd like to see everyone mother who is a mature believer be married when the have children but that's not the case and not everyone is a Jehovah based believer.

Someone can make a case of the probability of absenteeism because of the CDC's "unmarried" but that would be conjecture and not empirical evidence.

Also, as I stated to FC, the CDC doesn't cite RayGuns war on blacks...er uh....drugs effect seeing that the disparity in sentencing of drug use was so disparities

[Phillycat]

58. Stanford okay?

http://www.jstor.org/sici?sici=0009-3920(198504)56%3A2%3C326%3ASPEHAT%3E2.0.CO%3B2-J&cookieSet=1

On edit: the link is so long it won't connect properly. Google "70% of black households single parents" and it's the first link.

[Kahuna]

181. Stereotypes my rear end! Statistics my end! Everybody can see

what does on everyday. Nobody needs a statistician to tell them what they see everyday. At least I see it everyday because I grew up in Newark, NJ, and now live in city that borders Newark with the same demographics.

[uponit7771]

218. Can you cite stats that claim 70% of black babies are born without fathers present?

[Raejeanowl]

255. On The Unwed Issue

See my source downthread.

[texastoast]

279. You should read Steinem

And about the black matriarchial structure.

A matriarchy is just as dysfunctional as a patriarchy.

Humans flourish better with equality.

[FloridaJudy]

23. And then we have the white phenomenon

Of men ditching the wife and kiddies to take up with a younger playmate. Some of these are top achievers in other areas.

Some of them even run for President on the Republican ticket.

[uponit7771]

25. No one is going to link and quote (Source up) the study that says 70% of black babies born out of...

...we lock or without fathers.

I get insults and I've gotten insults for the longest.

I'm going to write Obama's compaign about the issue if someone doesn't source up because it's a racist stereotype that is being passed around since OWrongly cited out of context some study that he claimed was done while Armstrong Williams was on his show.

[Phillycat]

60. Here

http://www.jstor.org/sici?sici=0009-3920(198504)56%3A2%3C326%3ASPEHAT%3E2.0.CO%3B2-J&cookieSet=1

[mrreowwr_kittty]

27. LOL! How true.

Republican men like McCain, Guiliani, and Gingrich are a bigger threat to marriage than gays or out-of-wedlock births! Where is the outrage??!1? What about the children??

[EFerrari]

39. Or that less sexy phenomenon of white men locking up black men

forcing them to work for nothing and then BLAMING them for being bad fathers.

That's just plain perverse.

[wvbygod]

101. I assume you are referencing the war on some drugs

If so, yes, that is a disgusting abuse of ignorant laws. That could be the source of many missing fathers.

[EFerrari]

117. Well, I'm referencing the War on Black Men that didn't pause

after the Civil War. We just have more clinical names for it now.

[wvbygod]

146. Other than the war on some drugs, of what current war are you speaking ?

I know about the driving while black etc but what war on the black man exists in 2008?

[EFerrari]

207. After the Civil War, slavery just relocated its authority

from outright ownership to the criminal justice system. That abated somewhat in 1941 or so when FDR forced the Justice Department to start prosecuting cases but, it's never really "gone away". The War on Drugs is just the latest iteration of the same practice.

[JVS]

57. It's called "The American Dream"

[AngryAmish]

149. What % of white married men do that?

What % of divorces are filed by women? What % of married men of other races ditch the wife and kids for younger women?

No prejudices, just statistics.

[truthisfreedom]

24. No he didn't. He was speaking to ALL FATHERS OF ALL RACES. The MEDIA said he was speaking to black

men.

Here's the text:

But if we are honest with ourselves, we’ll admit that what too many fathers also are is missing – missing from too many lives and too many homes. They have abandoned their responsibilities, acting like boys instead of men. And the foundations of our families are weaker because of it.

[Shakespeare]

28. And here's what he said, literally, in the next breath:

You and I know how true this is in the African-American community. We know that more than half of all black children live in single-parent households, a number that has doubled – doubled – since we were children. We know the statistics – that children who grow up without a father are five times more likely to live in poverty and commit crime; nine times more likely to drop out of schools and twenty times more likely to end up in prison. They are more likely to have behavioral problems, or run away from home, or become teenage parents themselves. And the foundations of our community are weaker because of it.

[EFerrari]

43. There's something really funky about that logic.

It's like lecturing someone who has been beaten by the police for their bad posture.

[Shakespeare]

50. Did you see the entire speech?

He's not blaming the victim. He also talked in detail about how much more the government needs to do, but also emphasized the importance of black fathers staying involved in the kids' lives. Because that IS a problem, just as economic and educational misjustice are problems.

I don't see a problem there...

[EFerrari]

61. Obama's stance is socially accepted but it's ungrounded

in the long history of how black families are smashed up in America. There sure is a problem and it's so pervasive that we don't even see it. It's just part of the fabric that we accept as "America".

It makes no sense to lecture people on family responsibility when the culture has been doing everything possible to destroy that family for hundreds of years and ongoing. He should be celebrating those families that have managed to stay together, instead.

He should be hailing the black fathers who fight for their families despite the gravitational pull that this society exerts on some of them to give up.

It must be playing well somewhere, though, because the Obama campaign is not stupid.

[Shakespeare]

67. Well, you and I disagree on that point.

I think it's important that personal responsibility be emphasized WHILE we simultaneously work to overcome the economic, educational and cultural misjustice that drives it, because the absent father problem has become so ingrained in the culture--and glamorized through music, movies, etc.

I'm well aware of the long history behind this problem, but black men are not entirely helpless in that regard, either. The entire community needs a lot of help in overcoming it, but until it becomes uncool to have four different baby mamas, then other black men need to continue to criticize it. And it's MUCH better to have that criticism come from within the community than from outsiders.

And he DID hail the black fathers who fight for their families--that was part of yesterday's speech, too.

[Phillycat]

86. Agree.

[EFerrari]

90. Lecturing these fathers on "responsibility" is like

lecturing the residents of Cedar Rapids on the amount of water on their lawns.

[Shakespeare]

98. As I said, we disagree on that point. n/t

[EFerrari]

121. Unless you can understand how a blade of grass feels under that flood,

we're done.

[Shakespeare]

145. You are just determined to pick a fight, aren't you?

We agree almost entirely. Thanks for letting me know "we're done." :eyes:

I do love being lectured to.

[cali]

134. what condescending hogwash.

[EFerrari]

140. Read something, cali. n/t

[Phillycat]

138. Oh, balderdash.

Each and every black man has the choice to stay with the mother of his children, or not. Yes, society makes it harder, but there IS still personal responsibility. And I'm sure all the black fathers who DO do the right thing and stay with their intact families would not appreciate you removing their free will completely and telling them they're at the mercy of societal mores.

[EFerrari]

143. "Personal responsibility" is a cover for a lot of right wing sins.

And my position doesn't in any way denigrate what real people have to fight every day. But, thanks anyway.

[eridani]

151. Including the ones jailed for non-violent drug offenses at 10 times the rate of whites? n/t

[woolldog]

80. I agree.

I'm disappointed in this speech. He thinks he has black voters in his pocket, but that is most definitely not the case. Especially not if he keeps making speeches like this.

What better way to woo white voters reluctant to vote for a black man than to beat up on the black community? I don't like this game he's playing.

[wvbygod]

111. How in the hell do you get Obama is "beating up on the black community"?

Maybe 68% fatherless families is ok with you, but thankfully Obama sees it differently.

[woolldog]

127. He's criticizing blacks and oversimplifying the issue, to curry favor with

a segment of whites who are skeptical of him being "too black" or who believe he'll "favor the blacks". It's very transparent and I don't have to like it.

Like sfexpat said, what he's doing is analogous to criticizing someone who's been beaten to a pulp for their bad posture.

[wvbygod]

148. To not criticize fathers for leaving their children is to condone it

Other than being locked up and away from you children what does leaving your children
have to do with bad posture from getting beat up?

[Liberal_Stalwart71]

183. He criticized himself, too, which is something Bill Cosby failed to do...

One of the reasons why some people shunned Cosby is not because they disagreed with the premise of what he was saying, but that he is himself a hypocrite, who stepped outside his own marriage and comitted adultery. Obama is saying that he, too, hasn't been a perfect father; in fact, he admits that he has made mistakes and will continue to make them. The other difference is that while Cosby blames the victim and oversimplifies the issue, Obama is asserting that it "takes a village." Yes, black men need to step up and take some responsibility for their actions. However, the private sector, government and society as a whole should address the underlying institutional and economic conditions that make it more difficult to lift oneself up from one's bootstraps. They need the boots or straps before they can lift themselves up. And if the structure is such that there are no suitable jobs, or that employers won't hire them, that leads to feelings of powerlessness and hopelessness, and here we are again facing the vicious cycle of welfare dependency, crime-ridden neighborhoods, and poverty.

For those who haven't read the book, read "When Work Disappears," by William Julius Wilson. It should be required reading for every American who loves and cares for this country and the conditions within it.

[Chulanowa]

177. There's a LONG leap from "unwed mothers" to "fatherless children"

Obama - and a LOT of people on this thread - are making that leap. All involved should know better. The question hten comes, why are that 68% born out of wedlock?

because maybe, from the day we understand the concept of "wedding" we're raised on images of a big expensive party in a church with catering for the extended families on both sides, expensive rental clothing, etch, to such a point that when our finances fall short, we get it in our heads that we "Can't afford" marriage

[JeanGrey]

221. What nonsense. It's real cheap at the judge's chambers.

Which is where I'd be in a flash if children were involved.

[Chulanowa]

272. It's nonsensical, sure

But that's the way our society is sometimes. Like the woman who has been trained that in order to find love she has to starve herself, dumb herself down, and accept abuse as part and parcel of a relationship.

[wvbygod]

128. Please point out where Obama "beat up on the black community"

He spoke out against an existing problem. Where do you see a beating?

[woolldog]

147. answered (nt)

[uponit7771]

99. Yeap, No 1 of progressive cred can say RayGuns War On Blacks...er Drugs...didn't have a negative....

...impact on unwed mothers.

[chimpymustgo]

206. But don't forget, Raygun was in the party of good ideas...transformational, even.

I pray for a candidate who will lift up the downtrodden, not lecture them.

[wvbygod]

105. Can you describe what our culture is doing to destroy black fathers

Other than the war on some drugs that is. What are you hinting at?

[uponit7771]

107. RayGuns War On Blacks was bad enough to the USSC to have to step in on dipsarity of sentencing

[EFerrari]

120. Are you kidding? It might not be a bad exercise to go look up

your chances of being stopped by the police when you're caught driving while black.

In Chicago alone, it's a factor of 8X. That figure is just for guys who were stopped for no reason at all.

[wvbygod]

131. No, looking for the reason that 68% fatherless children exists

I'm sure DWB exists somewhere but that does nothing to explain the lack of fathers. The
WOSD could help explain some if they are locked up for it.

[EFerrari]

132. In order not to understand the rate of missing fathers

you'd have to have no knowledge at all of US history.

Is that your situation? Because I can start with that.

[chimpymustgo]

165. sfespat2000, you have summed it up so well.

"He should be hailing the black fathers who fight for their families despite the gravitational pull that this society exerts on some of them to give up.

It must be playing well somewhere, though, because the Obama campaign is not stupid."


Your entire post is outstanding. I wish people would climb down from the worship horse, and really think about this issue.

[Raejeanowl]

256. Sorry

But I don't "get" how young black men getting young black women pregnant out of wedlock in the first place is somehow, someone else's doing or fault.

[uponit7771]

29. Not only that, these people keep citing the "70%" montra that OWrongly made but wont source up on...

...the study.

The black community might have a bigger problem than whites but there's nothing I've seen so far that substantiates the 70% claim.

[ieoeja]

66. See post #64 for a link from the CDC showing it at 68% in 2002. n/t

[mudesi]

72. Says a lot about the OP, doesn't it? (nm)

[crankychatter]

35. If you're looking for a president that will agree w/stereotypes (like "Black men are irresponsible")

The GOP is accepting registrations

that is NOT what Senator Obama said

[Bill McBlueState]

36. Is there something about dark skin that makes people leave their families?

I doubt it.

Since that's almost certainly not the case, it seems like it would be much more productive to investigate the real causes of absentee parents. Race is a convenient but unhelpful proxy for the real problem.

[EFerrari]

37. Yeah -- dark skin makes you prey for the criminal justice system.

So, you could answer that in the affirmative. They give you rides right away from your family.

Obama needs a reality check.

[foo_bar]

63. Obama "needs a reality check"?

“I know the toll it took on me, not having a father in the house,” he continued. “The hole in your heart when you don’t have a male figure in the home who can guide you and lead you. So I resolved many years ago that it was my obligation to break the cycle — that if I could be anything in life, I would be a good father to my children.”

But Mr. Obama also acknowledged his own flaws as a father, citing the breakneck schedule of the campaign and the rare days he spends with his children.

http://www.nytimes.com/2008/06/16/us/politics/16obama.html?_r=2&adxnnl=1&oref=slogin&ref=politics&adxnnlx=1213639550-y+1yxNlD5uI86IgI0i0Wkg&oref=slogin

Maybe he's overgeneralizing, or under-, but it's not like the man is speaking from an ivory tower on this subject.

P.S. Flashback to the now antiquated Morrison essay:

Years ago, in the middle of the Whitewater investigation, one heard the first murmurs: white skin notwithstanding, this is our first black President. Blacker than any actual black person who could ever be elected in our children's lifetime. After all, Clinton displays almost every trope of blackness: single-parent household, born poor, working-class, saxophone-playing, <...>

http://ontology.buffalo.edu/smith/clinton/morrison.html

[EFerrari]

83. Morrison was speaking about how black men are treated in the press

which is not unlike how they were addressed by Obama in his speech. And I say that without any rancor whatsoever. We have stories we tell each other to explain where we are now.

And I say that as a child of an absent white father who happened to have a big family in another state when I was born. :)

I guess I don't see the benefit in calling out black men unless it's a topic that has polled well.

[foo_bar]

104. I think I agree (if you replace "the press" with "society")

The message was clear "No matter how smart you are, how hard you work, how much coin you earn for us, we will put you in your place or put you out of the place you have somehow, albeit with our permission, achieved. You will be fired from your job, sent away in disgrace, and--who knows?--maybe sentenced and jailed to boot. In short, unless you do as we say (i.e., assimilate at once), your expletives belong to us." (ibid.)

I guess I don't see the benefit in calling out black men unless it's a topic that has polled well.

I see where you're coming from, and tend to agree that his generalizations don't address root causes and might even reinforce Morrison's "tropes of blackness" in pop culture, but I don't think his position reflects lack of reality testing, and in terms of pandering you have to respect that he's navigating Scylla and Charybdis between the mutually sucking stereotypes of "angry black man" and "Uncle Tom", deviation from which tends to produce the opposite respective charge.

[EFerrari]

115. Yes. And Obama is doing a remarkable job of navigating.

I give him all the credit in the world for that, alone. :)

[Bill McBlueState]

195. great point

Wasn't thinking about that aspect when I posted, but you're absolutely right.

[Shakespeare]

42. It's an economic and education problem, not a race problem. n/t

[EFerrari]

49. It is a race problem given that the US criminal justice system

has been systematically exploiting the free labor of black people, and in particular, men since the Civil War ended. FDR stemmed it a bit in 1941 but the practice isn't in any way ended. Yes, it is a race problem.

[Shakespeare]

51. You're quibbling over word choice. You and I happen to agree. n/t

[EFerrari]

54. Okay. But, imho, it's a mistake if we overlook the cover race has provided

for the vultures. :shrug:

[crankychatter]

44. If your kids need a doctor and you can't get a job with health insurance or decent pay

the state will help your kids, BUT ONLY if you're gone, along WITH, your negligible income

this shit is as old as I AM

Clinton's War on the Poor (Republican wet dream "Welfare Reform") exacerbated an already insane system

No bureaucrats lost their phony baloney jobs

But if you have a piece of shit second car that doesn't run... you can't get foodstamps... they'll pretend it's in perfect condition... value your fifty dollar piece of shit at $1450 and tell you to sell it and reapply in three months.

This place is fucked up and THAT is the problem, not Black men.

[JuniperLea]

47. You mistake race for family culture

The statistics negate your comments completely.

[EFerrari]

52. Not at all. The statistics show the result of the ongoing American assault

on black families. They don't show that black families are somehow less cohesive than other families.

[JuniperLea]

62. They are less cohesive BECAUSE of the assault

More black men than any other race in jail... far more single black women raising children alone... you can't do that to people for decades and not expect it to change them.

[EFerrari]

77. Exactly. But the conversation often skips that central fact. n/t

[JuniperLea]

82. Yes, on DU it tends to

But if you watch the PBS shows on the subject, it is clearly laid out, and the "cure" is directly related to changing the contributing factors. The first step is to admit there is a problem. This seems to be a huge hurdle.

[EFerrari]

84. Have you seen this, JuniperX?

BookTV had four segments this weekend on the re-enslavement of black Americans since the Civil War. It just set me back and that's not easy to do.

[JuniperLea]

108. Nope... love the subtitle though...

Admitting there is a problem is the hardest thing for everyone, methinks, on many levels.

[wvbygod]

135. What does it say about 2008 ?

The hope and change is about now.

[uponit7771]

109. I haven't witnessed too many people saying there's no problem at all just that the cause is left out

...of the narrative to often and that's what gets in my craw.

Also, no one source empirical data outside of the discriminatory "unmarried" from the CDC...

[uponit7771]

106. Yeap, RayGuns War On Blacks...er...uh....Drugs was a HUGE contributer to the "unmarried" number...

...which is the ONLY credible stat on 70% that can be sourced (the PSID study oversampled poor "women of color").

[EFerrari]

116. There has been a War on Black Families ever since there were

black families on this continent.

It just keeps getting rebranded.

[uponit7771]

122. True, it gets rebranded and seperated as a cause of issues in the black community. NOT that blacks..

...don't have issues, no culture is perfect, but there's nothing about being black in America in and of itself that makes some aspects of the community disparate negatively compared to other cultures.

[EFerrari]

126. This whole non issue is sort of funny.

In El Salvador in the 30s, 60+ per cent of kids were born to single women.

But the US was fine with that as long as their corporate interests were served by their willingness to work for next to nothing in the coffee fields. As long as they didn't become Communists.

lol

[uponit7771]

103. RIGHT!!!!!!!!!!!!

[jeffrey_X]

46. Why the big "thank you?" Why are you thanking him?

you don't think society knows this is a problem?

Do you think the people that need to hear this message the most will be listening to Obama?

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

78. Gee whiz, I wonder.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=132x5946696#5947674

[JoFerret]

266. It's idiotic

I agree.

(Let's all applaud - Obama beats up on black men.)

[janx]

53. He's telling ALL fathers to take responsibility.

And it's about time that a leader came out with this. It's not just black men who abandon their kids.

[goldcanyonaz]

56. What is up with the big THANK YOU??????

[wvbygod]

92. If I were to guess

It's because Obama is calling out the fathers that leave their women and children to fend
for themselves. There is much more to being a father than just depositing sperm.

[EFerrari]

123. Then why didn't he also call out my white father?

Do you think that my white father is somehow not worth the same attention?

If only I had known years ago, I'd have called him out, too. :)

[jeffrey_X]

124. This is common knowledge, no?

why is the OP thanking him? How is this going to change the OP's life?


code words are cool.

[SeeTheFuture]

81. The Hard Truth

I see all sorts of blame being slung around over the causes of this disparity. The (statistical) destruction of the black nuclear family began with Lyndon Johnson's Welfare package. The gov financially punished poor families by making it difficult to receive benefits if there was a man in the house. To those wishing to collect welfare, a husband was a liability.

[EFerrari]

87. Way before that. The destruction of the black family in this country

has yet to stop. Most of us may not like to know that but it happens to be true.

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

89. After, actually.

African American families were quite tightly knit until the late sevenites, early eighties.

[EFerrari]

93. How do you figure? n/t

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

100. That's when single motherhood rates shot up.

Across all demographics, actually, but collapse of working class job particularly hit African Americans hard.

The whole thing is bunk, IMO, based on mythological ideas of an ideal "nuclear" family, which completely neglect extended, is based foremost on racist stereotypes that African American men are hypersexed and lazy, fails to address studies that african american males take fatherhood just as seriously as an other demographic, and ignores that more fathers are spending more time with their children now than at any other point on record.

[EFerrari]

110. And you have to wonder if the stats for black low income families

weren't all of a sudden more important to track at just that point.

Selective bullshit and I'm sorry Obama went there in this way.

[crankychatter]

88. it wasn't "welfare" per se, as the RW would have us believe IMO

it is, as you've stated, the way in which such programs are administered

When that program began, a Black man wasn't allowed to join the Carpenter's Union... they were forced to be Laborers, if they were even lucky enough to get INTO a Union... and THAT, was in San Francisco

[eridani]

152. Nonsense. That rule was in place in the 30s with AFDC n/t

[TheDonkey]

94. Black women need to help the situation as well!

I get tired of hearing about how black men are behind all the single-parent homes out there but black women need to step up. Don't have unprotected sex with some punk you know is not going to stick around, or use birth control! It takes 2 to tango and the epidemic of single-parent homes is a problem for our community, but don't just blame men, women have a role to play too.

[BelleCarolinaPeridot]

112. All women !

[TheDonkey]

171. true, true! We all need to get our acts together for the kids

there are great single parent families out there but there are plenty that are created to the detriment of those involved.

WRAP IT UP!!

[Blue_Tires]

276. +1

[VotesForWomen]

113. when Bill Cosby said it you people crucified him, but when Saint Obama says it, it's the gospel trut

truth. nt

[EFerrari]

118. Cosby was wrong, Obama is wrong and you are wrong. n/t

[Shakespeare]

119. Oh, look. It's you.

Not all of us crucified Cosby for the comments.

[uponit7771]

125. Cosby lost credibility when he sourced the least common denominator of human behavior as indigenousn

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

150. No, we crucified Bill Cosby because he said...

Black people can't speak English.

Black people can't be doctors.

Black people dress funny.

Black people are illiterate.

Black people are crooks.

Black people give themselves stupid names like Shaniqua and Mohammed.

You know, the kind of shit that David Duke says.

[theboss]

167. Bill Cosby was right on about 50 percent of what he said

He just surrounded it with a lot of nonsense on names and music and clothes.

[NOLALady]

267. Truth in your opinion?

IMO, both are wrong.

[EFerrari]

129. Greenwood, may I ask why you are surprised that poor black families

have trouble staying together?

Do you need a politician to explain it to you?

I don't understand.

[galledgoblin]

133. Chris Rock made this observation in '96

"I take care of my kids." You're supposed to, you dumb motherfucker! What kind of ignorant shit is that? "I ain't never been to jail!" What do you want, a cookie?! You're not supposed to go to jail, you low-expectation-having motherfucker!

he removed the skit from his act years ago, partially because it's old, but mainly because he was uncomfortable using the N word lightly (and seeing people in turn use it lightly).

still, while the skit makes people uneasy and isn't easily repeated, it does carry a lot of truth.

we need to help create stable families. don't let the right wing dominate this issue, we can step up and create an environment where men are less likely to leave and supports exist to make up for their absence if needed.

[EFerrari]

136. This whole conversation seems sort of insane to me.

This culture has been ripping black men away from their families for hundreds of f&cking years.

And just now we're worried about their "absence"? And how their whole subculture has tried to deal with it?

Oh my fucking god.

This isn't about black men or black families. This is about our culture that went from zero to torture after 9/11. A culture that gives the Pentagon anything they want but won't spend a nickel to fund healthcare for poor children.

This is the same country that sees no problem with Bush having tea with the Queen while Iowa is under water.

This is not about black men.

[galledgoblin]

141. we can't talk about all these issues?

*insert "throw _____ under the bus" comment here*

[theboss]

168. You're kind of all over the map

There are a lot of studies on how slavery created a matriarchial society in the African American Community. And black familes have always been more quote/unquote "broken" than white families.

But that doesn't mean we should:
1. Ignore the problem,
2. Ignore the impact, or
3. Ignore the precipitous rise in illegitimacy over the past half century.

[EFerrari]

201. I don't agree that black men or black families are "the problem".

That's not all over the map. That's just refusing obviously self serving framing. And frankly, before I'd accept the situation as you describe it, I'd ask who wrote those studies and to what end. :)

[theboss]

222. Black men and black families aren't a problem. Lack of black men in families are.

At its heart, it is really an economic matter. It is next to impossible for a one-income - or no-income - family to rise economically.

Daniel Patrick Moynihan was talking about this 40 years ago.

[EFerrari]

225. It is a matter of economics driving social practice

so fingering black men for it is a red herring that lets the culture at large off the hook.

As I said up or down thread, if a family can only get social support when there is no father at home, the result is predictable.

I studied a culture where 60% of births happened outside of wedlock. It had nothing to do with the cohesiveness of those families. The women stayed on the plantation with the kid and their men moved on at the end of the season to find another gig. That's the only way everybody got to eat. When that economy was phased out, the configuration of the family changed, too.

edit for clarity

[ulysses]

139. I agree. I think.

I've taught enough kids whose dads were gone (for a variety of reasons) to have felt a personal stake in the discussion. Personal responsibility is all well and good, and yes, a lot of men have made some really damned poor choices in that regard.

That said, I'll say this as well: until and unless we do something about a poverty level that removes most good options from many lives and a War on Drugs that imprisons many of those who have little other choice but to deal, we're not going to do anything meaningful about the issue.

[SemiCharmedQuark]

153. Oh yay. Another "Let's look down on black folk" thread.

[wvbygod]

154. Sigh. Another "Let's brush off a real problem as racism" evasion

If racism and opportunity were the cause then back in the 50's and 60's fatherhood would have been
a much bigger issue than it is now. As it is, the problem is 100% worse now than then. Back then
if you abandoned your kids you were admonished, now it is almost as if it is "cool" to run away.

Something is up and it is not racism.

[jonestonesusa]

156. So, how would you explain the increase in single parents?

For my part, I doubt that it's a simple either-or, either racism or personal responsibility. After all, there are more single families today of all "races," due to cultural and economic changes, than there were decades ago.

You mentioned that it's "cooler" now to run away from your kids, so to speak. How do we explain that change in social attitudes - what caused it?

Do cultural changes like these have root social causes, or do they result only from individual choice and responsibility? I think that personal and social action is necessary to address this, and there's been an ongoing conversation for decades on personal responsibility among black men. That conversation does need continuation, enrichment, and diversifying. And yet, it's social and economic policy, including racial disparities in wealth, education, employment, and imprisonment that have had decreasing attention since the neocons took over. That needs to change as well in a Democratic administration.

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

157. So what is it, wvbygod?

If it's not racism, what do you think the problem with black people is?

[chimpymustgo]

184. Well, Bornagin, what do YOU think the PROBLEM WITH BLACK PEOPLE IS???

I'm just dying to know.

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

198. I don't think there is a problem with black people.

I think the problem is with institutionalized racism, but apparently wvbygod disagrees.

[EFerrari]

204. This is another "lazy black folk" trope and Obama is helping

to legitimize it as far as I'm concerned. Maybe he needs to spend some time visiting Cook County jails.

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

205. Maybe you should read Obama's message more carefully.

Obama called out fathers of all demographics to be more responsible. And mentioned the issue is particularly bad in African American communities.

The racist OP is projecting his own opinions on Obama. Don't feed the trolls.

[EFerrari]

208. Are his actual words anywhere? I saw a clip but maybe

I should read the words.

[EFerrari]

213. Snip from the AP story found at CNN:

Obama calls absent black fathers to task

CHICAGO, Illinois (AP) -- Barack Obama celebrated Father's Day by calling on black fathers, who he said are "missing from too many lives and too many homes," to become active in raising their children.
art.chicago.obama.ap.jpg

Black fathers are "missing from too many lives and too many homes," Barack Obama said Sunday.

"They have abandoned their responsibilities, acting like boys instead of men. And the foundations of our families are weaker because of it," the Democratic presidential candidate said Sunday at a largely black church in his hometown.

http://www.cnn.com/2008/POLITICS/06/15/obama.fathers.day.ap/index.html?section=cnn_latest

And a link to the AP story:

http://apnews.myway.com/article/20080615/D91AMTT00.html

It's not just the OP although the OP "improves" on the message. Obama called black fathers boys. I don't agree with that.

Edit: WOW! AP reframed what Obama said to frame it as only black fathers. They need to be called out on this! I just read the text Pro Sense put up below.

[wvbygod]

273. It a problem regardless of race

The problem needs addressed and skin color has nothing to do with it.

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

274. Your answer doesn't fit with your comments in your above post.

Why do you think it's cool to abandon your kids, wvbygod?

[wvbygod]

275. cute.

reading comprehension is your friend. I'm not on duty to help you with it, nor will I ask you
when you stopped beating your family.

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

277. Hey, it's your comment.

What makes you think people think it's "cool."

Your word, not mine.

[wvbygod]

280. "almost as if it is "cool" to run away."

I can't say it is cool. I really don't know. That is why I asked.

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

281. Why do you think that?

[ecstatic]

155. He's told white men to accept responsibility too...

for allowing creatures like Bush to run wild in the White House. Thanks for your concern.

[kwassa]

161. This OP stinks because ....

you have to use Obama as a surrogate for your own opinion about black people, rather than simply state your own opinion. By quoting Obama, you can use a black man to make your opinion legitimate. This is no different than those who use Bill Cosby for the same stealth purpose. Speak your own mind, don't lean on others.

The absent father is only one aspect of poverty, which has a number of causes, with historically the most important being racism. Attempting to reduce it to a single cause is absurd, but many find simplistic concepts attractive..

The social stigma against out-of-wedlock births vanished for all Americans a long time ago, which is the greatest difference between the 1950s and now.

[sampsonblk]

162. This OP stinks. Period.

nt

[chimpymustgo]

172. Shouldn't THIS OP be locked? People actually disagree with it. Can't have THAT!

[ProSense]

191. The OP gave the impression that the speech was solely about black men

it wasn't

[EFerrari]

228. It wasn't only the OP -- the AP framed it that way. Fooled me too.

Go see the snip I posted here:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=132&topic_id=6369226&mesg_id=6374987

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

234. I don't think the OP was fooled.

Don't forget, Lee Greenwood was the guy famous for singing about how he was Proud2BAmurikan.

[barack the house]

173. It is only a candidate like obama that could address the issue and he did admirably.

[chimpymustgo]

175. It was a sucker punch. Pure and simple - aimed for the media and the gullible.

[rove karl rove]

174. damn straight

He hnows first-hand what he's talking about here.

[Leftist Agitator]

176. "Currently, 70% of black babies are born out of wedlock."

So fucking what? Marriage is an outmoded institution that does far more harm than good in many instances.

Marriage, or lack thereof, has nothing to do with responsible parenthood.

More African-American children are deprived of their fathers through racist and unjust laws that result in the imprisonment of 1 of every 9 African-American men between the ages of 20 and 34 at any given time than for any other single reason.

http://www.oliverwillis.com/index.php/2008/02/29/1-in-9-black-men-in-jail/

Ergo, 11% of likely African-American fathers don't have a choice when it comes to the responsible upbringing of their children. There's the crux of the issue. It has nothing to do with the antiquated notion that religious and secular authorities must grant official approval to a relationship in order for children to be raised in a loving, supportive environment.

[SemiCharmedQuark]

178. That pisses me off too. I was born out of wedlock and I'm none the worse for it.

My father was a drunk who tried to crush my mom with a cinder block. I'm proud that my mom kicked his sorry ass to the curb and I'm glad she wasn't shamed into marrying him.

[JeanGrey]

223. Well, my father was a drunk too, and although I loved my

mother we were POOR and I was worse off for it. Mom married three times all the same kind of men. Much of the responsibility lies on HER choices.

I see it among my friends - Women dating men who treat them like utter SHIT and then will have a baby by them or marry them. I guess they thought they could wave a wand and they'd change.

[uponit7771]

180. Right, so far no one has cited a study of black men absent from their babies lives either, 'wedlock'

...figures the cdc keeps up with are for religious folk and a false metric imho because of the discriminatory assumption everyone wants to be married to have children.

[Phillycat]

188. I think children do better in a two-parent home. There have been studies.

I was raised by a single mother, before you jump all over my ass.

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

200. You're a big believer in nuclear families, eh?

Hmm.

[Phillycat]

209. Yes.

:wtf:

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

229. Strikes me as elitist.

[Phillycat]

233. How so? What are you talking about?

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

236. The idea that a "proper" family, one mom and one dad is superior.

Really conservative "Leave it to Beaver" type notions you've got there.

[EFerrari]

237. Not to mention, the nuclear family is probably why

families go molecular in this country. But, they are easier to sell to!

[Phillycat]

238. I didn't ever say "one mom and one dad". Gay couples also make fine parents.

Either two men, two women, or a man and a woman - whatever the makeup of the parental unit is, it's been shown in studies that kids do better in a two-parent house. Take it up with science.

And make up your mind whether I'm elitist or conservative.

[Phillycat]

239. Here's just one of thousands of examples

http://www.futureofchildren.org/newsletter2861/newsletter_show.htm?doc_id=307164

of studies showing that children do better in a two-parent household. And again, I never said "one man, one woman". I said two parent, of any combination. Seems like YOUR conservative ideas are putting words into my mouth.

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

240. Do you understand the difference between correlation and causation?

Well, you were from a one parent home, so...

[Phillycat]

241. Well, it's been a long time brewing, sir.

But I've finally come to the realization that A, you try to get under my skin on purpose, B, you have nothing substantive to say, C, you're a Grade-A sexist, and D, my life would be better if you weren't in it. Bye bye now.

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

246. Pfff.

I ain't the one disparaging non-traditional families.

Adios.

[EFerrari]

243. Before I return my PBK key or my degrees, I'd love to see the

contrarian viewpoint and a critique of the study.

I expect Obama and Bill Clinton might feel the same way.

lol

[Greenwood]

190. You, sir, are living in denial....

It is called RESPONSIBILITY.

Good grief.

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

199. Who said anything about irresponsiblity?

Why are you assuming that black men are irresponsible.

[EFerrari]

244. And you, Sir, are living with a cultural myopia so profound

you don't even notice it.

[charlie]

179. Y'all are falling for this guy's shit again?

You're getting your chains yanked.

[chimpymustgo]

185. Get a brain, morans!

[Greenwood]

187. The reality is this: The American black family is in crisis.....

plain and simple.

AND BY VIRTUE OF A WHITE MAN SAYING THAT I KNOW IN ABOUT 3.0034 SECONDS I WILL BE CALLED A RACIST.

When I hear that I just laugh now. It is so old. It also breaks my heart because it shows that denial is alive and well. And, it only causes the problem to continue.

I hope Obama keeps preaching. He has really gone up in my book.

[chimpymustgo]

192. He's preaching to the victims of society - not the perpetrators. It was a cheap shot against

the powerless, uneducated, often INCARCERATED. GET A BRAIN, MORANS.

[jeffrey_X]

197. THIS IS MORE CLASS RELATED THAN IT IS RACE RELATED

My wife and her family are just fine.

Thanks for your concern.

[EFerrari]

203. Newsflash: Black families have been in crisis since they were

kidnapped and dragged here. For people like you to turn around and blame them for how they deal with that crisis is the essence of American racism. Before you slam other people for what you tell yourself is denial, you might want to tend to your own.

[blindpig]

193. Blaming the victim.

Instead of pontificating, how about some decent jobs?

It's not about morality, it's about the economy.

This is right out of the Reagan play book.

[EFerrari]

214. Yep.. If you tell families they can get no social support

unless there is no man in the house, you get a bunch of households with no men in the house. Gee, what a surprise. And then, you turn around and blame the men for not being there. :wtf:

[LowerManhattanite]

202. Transparency at last. Thank you for revealing yourself. n/t

[chimpymustgo]

210. But the clothes are rally beautiful. Can't you see?

[JeanGrey]

211. Bill Cosby has been saying this for YEARS and yet, funny,

when he does he is vilified and trashed right and left on this forum.

[uponit7771]

217. He's wrong too, he nor anyone else can cite or study (THE STUDY NOT COMMENTARY) on whether 70% of...

...black babies are born without fathers present.

The discriminatory CDC only cites black babies born to mothers out of wedlock as if marriage is a standard for raising children

[JeanGrey]

224. I don't buy you wedlock theories. People STILL GET MARRIED.

In fact, MOST of them do. The fact is that more black children do not have fathers around and you can try and get around it all you want. It is also true of white children and we as a society haven't done well by our children with it.

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

235. What makes you say the fathers aren't around?

The only studies say that the parents aren't married, not that the fathers aren't around.

Btw, Bill Cosby also said the problem with black people was that they gave themselves stupid names like Shaniqua and Mohammed (and presumably Barack and Hussein.)

Do you agree witht hat true?

[JeanGrey]

262. Look around you!

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

278. So you're saying I should judge black people based on anecdotal observations?

Interesting.

[JeanGrey]

282. No one is "judging" anyone. It is simply clear that something

has to be done. Children need parents, they need DADS.

[ElsewheresDaughter]

216. I know of more than a few white fathers that need to do the same....it is a big heartbreaking issue

it isn't a race issue.

[uponit7771]

219. I've been trying to tell people that there's no study on the 70% number outside of the CDC and it...

...only counted marriage as if it was the holy grail of tell tale.

There's no study of black babies born without fathers present or fathers present in their lives.

[RB TexLa]

220. Of course it's absent parents of all races and genders. Since I choose to not father or raise

children, it's something I never have to worry about.

[JeanGrey]

226. So you "chose' not to, huh? Gee I've been told that people

just have to have sex and that naturally children will happen no matter what they do and there are no people who can REALLY choose "not to have kids".

[RB TexLa]

227. They are wrong.

[JeanGrey]

261. Yes, I know.

[dionysus]

232. you're coming around lee? sweet!

:toast:

[old mark]

251. I saw the speech. I think he had a lot of guts to say it.

He knew he would get hell from different directions, but I think he felt a need and said it anyway.

I have a lot of respect for him and mose so as the campaign progressed.
I believe he will be a great president. I think we really need one now.
mark

[Raejeanowl]

254. Check Out U.S. Dept. Health & Human Services

Maybe they're credible enough for some of the skeptics here, and they're pretty consistent with the OP's percentage quoted. There is a 2005 study posted in PDF booklet form:

Birth rates for unmarried women vary widely by race and ethnicity. In 2005, the nonmarital rate for Hispanic women was highest, at 100.3 per 1,000, followed by black women, 67.8, non-Hispanic white women, 30.1, and API women, 24.9. These variations have changed little in recent years. From 2004 to 2005, nonmarital birth rates increased 1 percent for black women, 2 percent for non-Hispanic white women, and 5 to 6 percent each for Hispanic and API women(Table19).

http://www.cdc.gov/nchs/data/nvsr/nvsr56/nvsr56_06.pdf

[EFerrari]

257. So what do those numbers tell you?

Holy cow.

Are you or, can ANYONE be surprised that the least supported families in this culture tend to break up?

What the f is the matter with people and the way they think?

Do you actually think black people are born with a gene that destroys their families or what?

[JoFerret]

263. Yep - it's all the fault of

...black men. (not).

Personally I was not impressed by that speech. Pandering to straight white right wingers imo.

Oh well - has to be done. There's an election to be won.

[Occam Bandage]

264. I liked the speech quite a bit. All children deserve both parents.

Not going to comment on the racial aspect of it.

[JoFerret]

265. How about the sexist part?

(There is actually some research on how boys with two mothers fair in the world. Pretty positive actually.)
And how about kids with two dads?

[Occam Bandage]

269. You'll note I didn't specify gender. As for Obama's?

I hardly blame him for not singling out what I assume is a comparatively-rare special case. Do you have figures on same-sex parenthood abandonment?

[JoFerret]

270. I did note that you were not sex specific

with the word parents. However, the speech was not.

(I do not have such information and I do not know whether there has been any such research conducted. I am sure that abandonment by any parent would have serious impact. It is interesting how well many children cope - their resilience is remarkable. However, I also do not see the relevance. My comment was made as an aside.)