Looking for Best Evidence of John Kerry in Cambodia

[Sporadicus]

I've been searching for the best evidence to support John Kerry's statement of having been in Cambodia in December 1968. I haven't found anything approaching incontrovertible proof in this matter, and it's bothering me. Somebody, please, throw me a frickin' bone here!

[molly]

1. Why? don't you trust OUR candidate?

[jeff30997]

2. Well, the guy wants proofs.He's not swallowing anything...

Because Kerry is OUR candidate.The way you're saying that is just like in the good old days when somebody ad doubts about the church and someone would point at that person and scream: Heretic!!!

[Sporadicus]

5. Yes, I Trust Our Candidate

and if you're impugning my loyalty, you're barking up the wrong tree!

[jeff30997]

9. Well said, Fred.

[Skip Intro]

3. Clarify. You're want to know if Kerry was there, or when Kerry was there?

I'm not sure I know what the charge against Kerry, re: Cambodia, is.

[Sporadicus]

6. Just Google 'kerry' + 'cambodia' n/t

[troublemaker]

4. Official story is now Jan-Feb 1969. (Ferrying CIA agents)

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7. So there's no doubt he was there, right, just a question of what month?

Is that the charge?

Please...

[Sporadicus]

15. Correct! I Would Like to Debunk Charges That He Lied

concerning Christmas in Cambodia ('68). I believe everything - including Dec. '68 - but I would like to find something supporting it. Maybe I worry too much about it.

[Sparkly]

21. Why would he have lied?

What would have been the purpose? Maybe he was mistaken, at most, about the month -- but I don't see what the big deal is.

[Sporadicus]

26. I Agree: no Reason to Lie About Something Like This

There's no question in my mind that John Kerry WAS in Cambodia; I'm just trying to fend off RW criticism over a VERY minor point of contention.

[Sporadicus]

27. Many Thanks to Everyone

for their constructive comments and help in debunking any more RW criticism of what is a VERY minor point of contention. I feel better having discussed this with all of you.

[Sparkly]

28. I understand.

But I think part of the answer is, "What's the difference?"

As I said, the government was lying about what was happening in Cambodia and Laos. I'm not sure the questions will ever be answered definitively, but I think this is just a "gotcha" with no significance. Ask the rightwingers why it matters at all.

Maybe there's some reason they're saying it does, but if so I haven't heard it. (I think it's all a John O'Neill "And One More Point," as he says continually!)

[Sporadicus]

10. OK. That Does Make Sense. I Personally Don't Doubt He Was There

It's just that the 'pugs are making so much of his earlier statement mentioning Christmas in Cambodia ('68).

[Skip Intro]

8. What are you looking for evidence of?

That he was there, or there in Dec., 1968?

[Sporadicus]

11. Yes, That Would Be Helpful

In quelling the criticism re Christmas in Cambodia ('68).

[Skip Intro]

13. Thanks

[DrFunkenstein]

12. Compared To The Lack Of Evidence On Bush's Draft Dodging?

Please, don't even give these knuckleheads the time of day. This is truly a sign of desperation. Just tell them to research Bush's changing statements on his cocaine abuse, then look at the punishments he doled out as Governor.

The W is for Wussy.

[Sporadicus]

20. This Truly Pales in Comparison to ANYthing in *'s Closet

but I still like documentation when it can be found. It's one of the things that give us the moral high ground: seeking the truth. This is probably one of those cases where documentation simply doesn't exist, however, so I'll just tell them to kiss my ass!

[MoonRiver]

14. Why don't you go over to Free Republic and ask them what evidence

they have that Kerry WAS NOT in Cambodia? Hmmmmmmmmmm?

[Sporadicus]

22. Low Blow, 'saywhat'...Good Name Choice, BTW

I ask for assistance, and you call me a freeper? Nice.

[MoonRiver]

36. It wasn't low. The freeps and their bushwacking masters are the folks

promoting this lie. Ask them what PROOF they have. But, wait, Democrats are always guilty until proven innocent among the knuckle dragging dittoheads. :eyes:

[Bush was AWOL]

32. It is impossible to prove a negative, fwiw.

[Sparkly]

16. Crazy little game of "gotcha"

What does it matter whether it was December or January anyway?!

The government was lying about what was going on anyway. I doubt there'll be absolute proof of anything. But why does it matter? I'm confused.

[Sporadicus]

30. You're Right; It Just Doesn't Matter!

everyone's commentary has reassured me that this is nothing but a tempest in a teapot.

[wurzel]

17. Kerry wasn't in Cambodia in December. He was there in January 1969.

Apparently he got the month wrong and corrected the record. It's on a level with Gore mis-remembering who he sat next to on a plane. Absolutely unforgivable! Proves he's a liar yada yada yada!

[Sporadicus]

25. Mind You, I Don't Give a Fig One Way or Another

I readily concede the benefit of the doubt. I just want a really good response the next time a RWer throws this in my face.

[wurzel]

35. I'd ask a RW whether Cheney was on his 3rd or 4th deferment at the time.

Or which table Bush was under.

[ochazuke]

18. He wan't there on 12/25, it was a few days or weeks later.

http://www.washingtonmonthly.com/archives/individual/2004_08/004505.php

[Sporadicus]

24. That's What I'm Talking About!

That was very helpful! Thank you!

[joefree1]

19. Find it at http://www.disinfopedia.org

I saw good stuff there.

Also use these sites to debunk repuke "stalking points."

http://Snopes.com
http://mediamatters.org
http://www.disinfopedia.org
http://blog.johnkerry.com/rapidresponse/
http://www.dailykos.com/
www.misleader.org

But it's better to keep them on the defensive by stalking your argument, not the other way around.


Download the free bumper art here:
http://ediablo.com/eDiabloGallery.html

Images of the Bush Protest in Santa Monica, August 12, 2004
http://www.ediablo.com/BushProtest8-12-04.html

[Sporadicus]

23. I've Checked Most of Those

but haven't found anything substantive.

[joefree1]

31. Here you go

The best stuff was on dailykos.com:

Evidence in support of Kerry's claim of being in Cambodia on xmas 1968.
by Cogito
Fri Aug 13th, 2004 at 01:01:25 GMT

One of the attacks currently being leveled against Kerry is that he lied about being in Cambodia. O'Neill claims that Kerry is lying and that his boat was stationed nowhere near Cambodia. I think there is good evidence in support of Kerry's claim from his own contemporaneous journal.

Here is a portion of John Kerry's contemporaneous journal transcribed back in 2003 in the Boston Globe that refers directly to the action of Christmas 1968. I reprint a significant section because there is a good deal of information there that can be cross checked. The journal also reinforces just how underhanded the whole Swift Vote Vet attack on Kerry really is.

{Update} Diaries :: Cogito's diary ::

A shower is two days behind you and two days hence but some how dirt doesn't (unable to read) you at all. It's good to be alive and to see the small ducks following their mother to food somewhere in the mangroves that line the bank of the river. Ducks remind you of geese and geese bring back the cold of Massachusetts and the memories of warm fires and chestnuts and houses that have been turned into Christmas lights and the feeling of warm skin meeting cold leather as you climb into a frosted automobile that will skid and slide and precariously take you to the even more precarious Christmas shopping.

You are running on one engine to preserve gas because your station is at the mouth of the Co Chien River and there is no outpost to give you fuel and no LSP to (unable to read) with milk and warm food. Today though luck is with POF 44 and her small generator is still running; still capable of warming the hotplate and giving you fried eggs for breakfast. For some reason though you don't feel like fried eggs and so you open a O-ration can that has peanut butter in it -- (unable to read) 11 which is smooth -- and also a can of strawberry preserve and a sandwich satisfies an already deranged stomach.

Today you move to the northern end of the area -- towards Cambodia -- and excitement tingles the nerves that appreciates the new and the unexplored and you enjoy starting the other engine, hearing the deep throb of the diesel engine and the hums as the boat reaches for the step and shoots spray out on both sides as she moves up the river. The (unable to read) shows you where you are and where you are going and you trust the mesmeric sweep that illuminates islands and boats and jumps and sandbars. The (unable to read) hasn't been working very well and without it speed can be dangerous but you have moved over this part of the river before and nothing can stop you now. A (unable to read) sweeps by on one side and you feel large and protective(?) compared to this small fiberglass hull. The patrol officer warns you of a sandbar ahead in an area that you haven't traversed and you thank your wisdom for stopping and asking advise about the upper reaches of the river.
More ...
http://sipples.dailykos.com/story/2004/8/12/184326/074

If you follow the above link you'll find much more fairly conclusive evidence.

But then again, how much better does Kerry need to be then that White House squating frat boy?

[joefree1]

34. More good stuff here

Definitive Refutation of the Cambodia-Kerry Accusation
by balta1701
Wed Aug 11th, 2004 at 22:42:25 GMT

Ok, given the people in the comments at my blog who seem to be anxious about seeing my response to the Swift Boat people's allegation that Kerry was not in Cambodia as he claimed for Christmas in 1968.

This is going to be a fairly detailed look at the question, so hold onto your butts.

Diaries :: balta1701's diary ::

Having read this excerpt of the book by the Swift Boat people who might have known Kerry, here is a brief summary of the group's argument. First, Kerry has said repeatedly that he was in Cambodia for Christmas, 1968, and that this was an example of a war crime on the part of the U.S. - violation of the territory of a soverign country. He attacked Reagan with that memory in the 80's. It was also discussed in a Kerry Documentary book that came out earlier this year. Supposedly, Kerry even has a souvenir from his trip there.

However, according to the book, there are several reasons to question this story. First and foremost, the Swift boat people's suggest that there were obstacles in the way to prevent border crossings. Secondly, at the time, Kerry's boat was supposedly stationned/on patrol up to a city called Sa Dec, 55 miles from the Cambodian Border. And Third; the records of many of the officers that commanded the Swift Boats say that there weren't troops heading across the Cambodian border at the time, and Mr. Kerry would in fact have been punished for going there. These elements combine to suggest that Kerry has been lying about his voyage into Cambodia for Christmas, 1968. If you want more details, read the excerpt cited above.

Now that you have been educated on that side of the question, let's look at the other side, to see if it's at all possible that Mr. Kerry is actually correct. If its totally impossible that Kerry was in the area, that answers the question. Let's see what we can come up with on those matters.

First, I am going to deal with the easiest question in this; is it possible that Mr. Kerry could have been in Cambodia given his other whereabouts around that time. The answer to that is simply yes; it is possible. The only way it would have been impossible is if a.) he had put in for supplies or fuel at a location so far away from Cambodia where he could not have reached it given the fuel or the time or b.) his location could firmly be documented to be somewhere else on that day.

The first question is answered simply yes; these swift boats carried supplies and fuel to run about 400 miles, and could travel at speeds up to 20-25 knots. If Kerry had been at the location they suggest he was based at, he could have reached Cambodia in a roughly short trip, operated there for quite some time, and returned, without having to worry about fuel or food status in the least. Secondly, and this is the first time we are going to hit upon this problem which will come up repeatedly; there are no documents that say exactly where Mr. Kerry's boat was at the time. If there were, the Swift Boat vets would have had them; they have basically as much access as Kerry does (even more if you assume Bush support). If those documents existed that proved conclusively that Kerry refueled in Saigon at 3:00 a.m. on Christmas morning, we'd have seen them by now.

Therefore, it is not totally impossible that Kerry's boat was in Cambodia that night. Next, we will go 1 step further, and start to look at the military circumstances of the time. The Swift group alleges that there were significant obstacles to a boat crossing into Cambodia. Specifically, they allege that there were signs, boats, and even a landing craft in the way that would have stopped any boat from crossing the border.

But wait 1 second, let's think about the nature of the Mekong River in this area. If the Mekong were like the Mississippi around St. Louis, it would be easy to block off in this manner - there would be 1 channel and you'd just have to block it with 1 boat and a few signs. However, the Mekong is not like the Mississippi, in fact its actually far worse than even the Mississippi delta. The last map I linked to showed an area that was blue representing the river that was at least 5 miles wide. Here is a much better map, with more details. The Purple line in the map is the SV - Cambodia border.

On this map, you can see clearly, the Mekong is nothing close to 1 solid river in the area of the border. In fact, there are a large number of channels, with marshes, swampland, oxbow lakes, islands, and almost every other marine feature you could imagine inbetween them. If you zoom out to the full Cambodia map, you can clearly see that these channels are all part of the Mekong complex that runs down from the Himalayas.

Now, this does suggest a major problem with the Swift boat people's story; they say that there was an LCU (Landing Craft Utility) in the way that blocked the border. But wait just a second, given the large number of variable channels, islands, marshes, and different paths one could take across the Cambodian Border, how exactly would a single LCU be able to actually block the border? Short answer - it couldn't. You would need dozens of them. The swift Boats were small, floated light, and could go in shallow water - they could go through a huge number of channels without trouble. This passage in the book is designed to appeal to people who think of rivers like the Mississippi - 1 giant stream easy to block, when in reality this area would have more water-based paths through it than I can count. The maps prove that.

More likely, either there wasn't really an LCU there, or the U.S. really wasn't interested in blocking off the border completely - by having a single LCU there the U.S. could say that they had boats to block the border and it wasn't the U.S. boats journeying into Cambodia any time a foreign minister asked (even if the U.S. really was going in). Besides, given the sheer number of VC troops in the area of the delta at this time, an LCU sitting there would probably have been committing suicide. It'd be vulnerable to snipers, mortars, and everything else in the arsenal (will back that up more in a moment)

More ...
http://www.dailykos.com/story/2004/8/11/184226/148

Am I making you smile yet?


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[ochazuke]

29. John Kerry's web site

http://www.johnkerry.com/about/john_kerry/command_history.html

Links to lots of pdf files of his military records.

[starroute]

33. Operation Giant Slingshot began in December 1968

I'm pretty sure that's what Kerry was involved in. It involved an interdiction effort along a pair of rivers that flowed out of Cambodia and met at Saigon. (Thus the name.)

Here's a page with information on December 1968 operations including that one: http://www.riverinesailor.com/December1968.htm


Here's another one that mentions that and related operations:
http://www.mrfa.org/ras09b.htm

05 - 09 December - 'Cactus Fire II' Logistic re-supply of allied forces on upper Vam Co Tay at Moc Hoa.

14 December - Operation 'Giant Slingshot' commences; ASPB 91-5, ASPB 91-7 and M-91-2 among craft to establish base at Tra Cu.

19 - 23 December - 'Cactus Fire III: Logistic re-supply of allied forces on upper Song Vam Co Tay at Moc Hoa.


And here's something else that lists specific units:
http://www.mrfa.org/cite01.htm

Perhaps you can compare that with Kerry's record and see if it matches up.