Something Odd in McCain's War Hero Saga

[DemocracyInaction]

Part of the peddled story of McCain's war hero legend is that the Viet Cong wanted to return him because his father was a big Admiral (thus seeking favor/propaganda, etc.), but McCain refused because he wanted to stay with his men, etc.

Well, since when was McCain in a position to tell the Cong what he wished or wished not to do!?? They had the power to do anything they wanted with him, including return him if that's what tripped their trigger at the moment. He had no say in the matter. If he wasn't returned, it was because they decided they didn't want to return him. And that brings up something else....

Remember when Bush went on a slime campaign against him in SC in 2000? Didn't he have "swift boat"-type boys who insisted that McCain was a "rat" in captivity and sold our fellow prisoners for special treatment?? Hmmmm...maybe he was more valuable to them inside than sent home. Just saying...hey if it's good for the goose (Kerry), it should be appropriate to bring up and ask the gander.

[DemocratSinceBirth]

1. The VC Wanted To Trade Him

If you go after McSame on his war record you can add five points to his total... The man can't even comb his own hair because the VC never set his broken shoulders...

[moriah]

28. Bingo. That's NOT where we want to go.

It was easy to swift-boat Kerry on patriotism, because even though he served he also protested the war.

McCain served. He was captured. He was tortured. The VC offered to release him only because his father was a high-ranked military officer with a great deal of influence. He didn't take the easy way out.

The website www.vietnamveteransagainstjohnmccain.com would only have been successful in a primary. We need to disassociate ourselves from that completely.

[DemocratSinceBirth]

29. Plus John Kerry Came Back Whole

~

[zbdent]

34. Repukes didn't care with Max Cleland ...

[Virginia Dare]

37. Technically they were hitting him on his vote against the Patriot Act..

as I recall, but you're right, there is no depth that the repukes will not stoop to. I think we need to hit McCain on EVERYTHING including his military record if necessary. We shouldn't have to make up any lies though, unlike what they did to Kerry.

[DemocratSinceBirth]

38. Only The Deranged Ann Coulter Questioned His Service And Said He Caused His Own Injuries

Most Republicants were wise enough to stay away from that

[Virginia Dare]

42. They questioned his patriotism though..

that was pretty low. I don't suggest we go there, even though it worked.

[DemocratSinceBirth]

44. That Is Wrong Also But Only Coulter Was Cold Enough To Say He Blew Himself Up

1) We don't need the karma

2) Don't vote for McSame because he's lame and not because of what he did as a POW a generation ago...

[Virginia Dare]

46. I think ultimately we will not have to go there..

but I believe in leaving everything on the table. He's going to run on his military record. If there are proven lies in what he says, then he should be called on it.

[Virginia Dare]

35. It was a successful tactic for Bush..

but I don't think the Dems should necessarily go there either. I think a better way of going about is to attack him for his stance on torture.

[KittyWampus]

45. the Mediawhores would crucify any Democrat and then, by association, Obama if this is pushed

the Mediawhores were instrumental in pusing the Swiftboat Liars so that it undermined Kerry.

[Virginia Dare]

48. It still puts me into a blind rage..

the swiftboaters bought one ad in just a couple of markets. The rest was free advertising and publicity, starting at FAUX and then filtering to every major news organization in the country. It was and still is a criminal act.

[madaboutharry]

2. There is probably some mythology built

into the story. There usually is.

[DemocratSinceBirth]

5. Of Course But The Guy Suffered Grievously

He's entitled to that part of his resume...It didn't carry the day for Bob Dole or Bush Pere...

[madaboutharry]

13. No one will deny that.

He most certainly is entitled to that.

[zbdent]

36. of course, which POW would want to tell someone that his or her son

had broken under pressure?

[David__77]

3. Nothing heroic about bombing children for an unjust cause.

I truly wonder how many families are unwhole because of McCains personal actions.

[DemocratSinceBirth]

9. He Was Following (American) Orders

I don't see the efficacy of rehashing that debate now but I would be willing to wager any attempt to label him a "war criminal" will result in his winning by a landslide...

[David__77]

52. Of course no one campaigning for Obama should say that.

But it's true. "Following orders" is not a moral or a legal justification, at least not according to the Nuremberg precedent.

[tritsofme]

4. So what your trying to do is criticize him for something heroic?

Refusing special treatment or release until all those POWs captured before him were released?

This is a good way to get egg on your face and lose an election.

[cliffordu]

12. I've ranted over this very point. Wanna give him the election??

Bad mouth him about the POW experience.

[Virginia Dare]

33. Not that I think it's right..

but it seemed to work for Bush in 2000.

[RaleighNCDUer]

24. HOW does anyone "refuse release"?

If they wanted to release him, all they had to do was take him from his cell and drive him to the nearest western embassy, and shove him through the gate.

How could he possibly have any say in it?

The story is bogus.

[DemocratSinceBirth]

25. I Believe They Wanted To Trade Him For Their Own Prisoners Of War

~

[FSogol]

6. There are 10,000 better things to attack McBush on before

swiftboating a WWII vet.

Check out Phil Graham.

[arcos]

41. WWII?

He's old, but not THAT old. :D

[FSogol]

53. Whoops. Hurrying off to lunch and typed the wrong war. I meant

the Prussian War. ;-)

[El Supremo]

7. The Viet Cong was a guerrilla army in the South. The Hanoi Hilton was run by the N. Vietnamese Army.

[DemocratSinceBirth]

14. Thanks For Pointing That Out

I use the two interchangeably...

This is the one thing that would surely win him the election...

[DearAbby]

8. No

we won't go there...we don't attack the man's military record. PERIOD

[DeschutesRiver]

27. I agree 100%

There is more than enough material otherwise to attack McCain with - stuff that is really relevant to why he is clearly not the best choice. I won't attack the personal war experiences of anyone, period. I thought it was wrong to do to Kerry and more wrong to do to McCain, given the shit he endured.

I won't go there, and I will be active against anyone who does so. There is plenty of other stuff that needs to be the focus.

[TexasObserver]

10. everyone broke, including McCain

There are some stories that may or may not be true, which claim McCain took advantage of his father's status, and did receive special consideration. They'll probably come out of the woodwork soon enough. True or not, I don't think there's a lot of political capital to be made by addressing it.

[Virginia Dare]

39. If he's lying, then call him on it....

nothing should be sacred.

[KittyWampus]

47. that is literally insane. The Mediawhores would bury Obama if ANY Democrat does this

and frankly, I think some GOP'ers just might do this in the guise of being Democrats just to set us up.

This is such a stupid idea, it takes the breath away.

[Virginia Dare]

49. If McCain is confident that we won't touch it..

then what do you think he'll do? It's kind of a damned if you do damned if you don't scenario, but quite fortunately he's so pathetic I think Obama is going to blow the guy away without ever having to do any negative campaigning, so at this point I consider it moot.

[TexasObserver]

51. I think McCain will be swift boated from the right on this issue.

He's got enemies on the right regarding this.

[Virginia Dare]

62. Very good point..

and they'll go for a two-fer and make it seem like it came from the left.

[Bluerthanblue]

11. that plus the fact that as the highest ranking

man held in captivity- he couldn't leave his men behind, without being court marshalled. Another DUer pointed that out to me a few weeks ago. I'd bought into the story that he stayed in prison out of loyalty and unity with his fellow captives- but was corrected by a more knowledgeable person.

:shrug:

I understand there are some Vietnam Vets who take issue to his version of his Vietnam years- If Mccain uses his service to demonstrate his integrity- he has to realize he's going to get a lot of scrutiny.

peace~

[DemocratSinceBirth]

18. I Believe The United States Changed What A Soldier Can Say In Captivity In Light Of The Viet Nam War

I believe he or she can say whatever they want in captivity to avoid torture as long as it doesn't compromise the safety of his or her fellow soldiers...

[2rth2pwr]

55. Which is worse, a court marshall or torture without end?

[atreides1]

15. This was written by Colonel Hackworth

'DEFENDING AMERICA
BY DAVID H. HACKWORTH

ARE McCAIN’S HANDLERS PLAYING THE WRONG CARD?

John McCain is being hailed by the press as a “genuine war hero.” But is he a war hero in the conventional sense like Audie Murphy and John Glenn?

Or is his “war hero” status the creation of a very slick publicity campaign that plays on flag, duty, honor and country?

For sure, McCain has the fruit-salad — a Silver Star, a Legion of Merit for Valor, a Distinguished Flying Cross, three Bronze Stars , two Commendation medals plus two Purple Hearts and a dozen service gongs.

On a purely medal count basis, he out-weighs Murphy and Glenn, who both for years repeatedly performed extraordinary deeds on the ground or in the air against an armed enemy.

McCain’s valor awards are based on what happened in 1967, when during his 23d mission over Vietnam, he was shot down, seriously injured, captured and then spent 5 1/2 brutal years as a POW.

In an attempt to find out exactly what the man did to earn these many hero awards, I asked his Senate office three times to provide copies of the narratives for each medal. I’m still waiting.

I next went to the Pentagon. Within a week, I received a recap of his medals and many of the narratives that give the details of what he did.

None of the awards, less the DFC, were for heroism over the battlefield — where he spent no more than 20 hours. Two Naval officers described the awards as “boilerplate” and “part of an SOP medal package given to repatriated (Vietnam-era) POWs.”

McCain’s Silver Star narrative for the period 27 October 1967 — the day after he was shot down — to 8 December 1968 reads: “His captors… subjected him to extreme mental and physical cruelties in an attempt to obtain military information and false confessions for propaganda purposes. Through his resistance to those brutalities, he contributed significantly towards the eventual abandonment…” of such harsh treatment by the North Vietnamese.

Yet in McCain’s own words just four days after being captured, he admits he violated the U.S. Code of Conduct by telling his captors “O.K, I’ll give you military information if you will take me to the hospital.”

A Vietnam vet detractor says, “He received the nation’s third highest award, the Silver Star, for treason. He provided aid and comfort to the enemy!”
The rest of his valor awards — issued automatically every year while he was a POW — read much like the Silver Star. More boilerplate often repeating the exact same words. An example: “By his heroic endeavors, exceptional skill, and devotion to duty, he reflected great credit upon himself and upheld the highest traditions of the Naval Service and the United States Armed Forces.”

Yet McCain’s conduct while a POW negates these glowing comments. The facts are that he signed a confession and declared himself a “black criminal who performed deeds of an air pirate.” This statement and other interviews he gave to the Communist press were used as propaganda to fan the flames of the anti-war movement.

Accounts by McCain and other writers tell of the horror he endured: relentlessly beatings, torture, broken limbs. All inflicted during savage interrogations. Yet no other POW was a witness to these accounts.

A former POW says “No man witnessed another man during interrogations… We relied on each other to tell the truth when a man was returned to his cell.”

The U.S. Navy says two eye-witnesses are required for any award of heroism. But for the valor awards McCain received, there are no eye-witnesses, less himself and his captors.

And they’re not talking.

Our POWs in Vietnam were treated appallingly. The Viets would either break a POW or kill him. POWs provided info beyond name, rank and serial number or they didn’t come back.

Based on these stalwart men’s horrific experiences, the Code of Conduct has been changed. A POW says, “Now the training is to give them something… don’t risk permanent damage to health, mind or body.”

McCain refused an early release. An act of valor? Three former POWs told me he was ordered to turn it down by his U.S. POW commander and he “just followed orders.”

McCain certainly doesn’t appear to be a war hero by conventional standards, but rather a tough survivor whose handlers are overplaying the war hero card.

[LiberalArkie]

20. Leave it alone - he did what he had to do to survive. Plain and simple.

[thereismore]

16. I doubt they kept feeding him because he wanted to stay. More likely, it's a fable. nt

[Jersey Devil]

17. Let it go - this will hurt Obama

Obama has pledged not to run such a campaign. Don't do anything that would tarnish that promise.

[DearAbby]

19. Obama has too much integrity to go there

So do I and many other Americans....NO

[ElsewheresDaughter]

21. McCain lost FIVE US Navy Aircrafts before he was a POW...that's a hell of a record

Navy pilot John Sidney McCain III should have never been allowed to graduate from the U.S. Navy flight school. He was a below average student and a lousy pilot. Had his father and grandfather not been famous four star U.S. Navy admirals, McCain III would have never been allowed in the cockpit of a military aircraft.

His father John S. "Junior" McCain was commander of U.S. forces in Europe later becoming commander of American forces in Vietnam while McCain III was being held prisoner of war. McCain III's grandfather John S. McCain, Sr. commanded naval aviation at the Battle of Okinawa in 1945.

During his relative short stunt on flight status, McCain III lost five U.S. Navy aircraft, four in accidents and one in combat.

Robert Timberg, author of The Nightingale's Song, a book about Annapolis graduates and their tours in Vietnam, wrote that McCain "learned to fly at Pensacola, though his performance was below par, at best good enough to get by. He liked flying, but didn't love it."

McCain III lost jet number one in 1958 when he plunged into Corpus Christi Bay while practicing landings. He was knocked unconscious by the impact coming to as the plane settled to the bottom.

McCain's second crash occurred while he was deployed in the Mediterranean. "Flying too low over the Iberian Peninsula," Timberg wrote, "he took out some power lines which led to a spate of newspaper stories in which he was predictably identified as the son of an admiral."

McCain's third crash three occurred when he was returning from flying a Navy trainer solo to Philadelphia for an Army-Navy football game.

Timberg reported that McCain radioed, "I've got a flameout" and went through standard relight procedures three times before ejecting at one thousand feet. McCain landed on a deserted beach moments before the plane slammed into a clump of trees.

McCain's fourth aircraft loss occurred July 29, 1967, soon after he was assigned to the USS Forrestal as an A-4 Skyhawk pilot. While seated in the cockpit of his aircraft waiting his turn for takeoff, an accidently fired rocket slammed into McCain's plane. He escaped from the burning aircraft, but the explosions that followed killed 134 sailors, destroyed at least 20 aircraft, and threatened to sink the ship.

McCain's fifth loss happened during his 23rd mission over North Vietnam on Oct. 26, 1967, when McCain's A-4 Skyhawk was shot down by a surface-to-air missile. McCain ejected from the plane breaking both arms and a leg in the process and subsequently parachuted into Truc Bach Lake near Hanoi.

http://www.vietnamveteransagainstjohnmccain.com/cin_mccain_lost_five_u.htm

[Marrah_G]

22. Please don't go this route

No one on our side should ever consider this type of tactic.

[miles 2 go]

23. Everyone here is gonna tell you that we can't go there. We gotta play nice.

That we can't attack MCBush on his war record. I say bullshit. I say attack the old geezer on every level. They sure are gonna have MSM playin the game for them. They are gonna spread lies and question Obama's Americanism, his loyalty, his religion, his friends, his name, his wife and his race. Can't go there? BULLSHIT.

I agree that he probably did exaggerate his story. I don't doubt that he was doing his usual hot rodding style flying and caused his own capture. I don't doubt that he sung like a bird.

The thing is....we will never get the whole truth. That makes it unusable. I saw a video saying he sung, but I don't know who made it or what amount of truth is in it. It's not enough.

However, since I'm not running any media or political entities, I can inquire and wonder about such things. It's not like if you put it here on DU, it will be used in the campaign. LOL Some of the posters seem to think that if we question something that it's suddenly part of the campaign. Like we have that much power.

Can't go there, it's not right. BULLSHIT. We just don't have enough proof to go there in the campaign. But I reserve the right to wonder about it.

[MrCoffee]

26. Hear Hear!

If I could rec a reply, I would.

[Javaman]

32. So you would rather attack the guy who was a POW over 35 years ago

rather than attack him for being a fucking moron today?

have fun with that.

before you reply, read up on the Hanoi Hilton. Then read up on Charles Keaton and how he made mc lobbyist what he is today.

Then decide what you want to nail him on.

[miles 2 go]

50. Alert the media!

Some person posting on a website with the moniker miles 2 go thinks that Mcsame Mclame is riding on a war hero record that is probably not quite true.

Alert the media, I tell you.

[Javaman]

56. WTF are you talking about?

It seems that you choose to subscribe to a certain brand of insane that defines definition.

Have fun with that, you are now blocked. so your witty retort to puff up your ego will not be read by me, but only by others who, more than likely, won't give a damn about your opinion.

Good bye. And have a truly smashing day!! :)

[Virginia Dare]

43. I don't think we should let him get away with ANY lies..

regardless of what they are. We let Bush get away with his, and it bought us 8 years of misery.

[Javaman]

30. Moron* going AWOL is one thing, bringing up mclames POW status is off limits. nt

[DemocratSinceBirth]

31. Good Point

There was much to work with on Bush*...

McSame can even comb his own hair...

That would hand him the election...

[sampsonblk]

40. Unacceptable. For several reasons.

Its politically dumb, for one.

Second, the guy is a real American hero. No question.

And when those swift boat clowns came after Kerry, it was McCain who voluntarily defended Kerry.

'And, in an interview with The Associated Press, Republican Sen. John McCain of Arizona -- a former prisoner of war in Vietnam -- denounced the ad as "dishonest and dishonorable."(McCain condemns anti-Kerry ad)'
http://www.cnn.com/2004/ALLPOLITICS/08/05/kerry.veterans/index.html


McCain is a real hero. Or at least he was in Vietnam.

[niyad]

54. k & r

whatever the truth is about his time as a pow, my question is, how could ANYONE who has been tortured EVER say it is okay to do it to someone else?

personally, I think that his time as a pow affected his mental stability, but I can just see trying to use that in the election.

thank all of you for a lot of really valuable information.

[A-Schwarzenegger]

57. QUICKSAND!

:*

[rox63]

58. DO.NOT.GO.HERE.

It will get us nothing but grief. There are plenty of other things to go after McCain on.

One thing I've always wondered about is whether McCain suffers from PTSD. And if he does (I suspect he does), wouldn't most people be uncomfortable about a person with PTSD having access to the nuke button?

[niyad]

59. I would be astounded if he weren't suffering from ptsd. and because of his time

as a pow, and the mental anguish it must have caused, NO, I don't want his finger on the nuclear button.

[Hugabear]

60. Can someone tell me exactly what makes McCain a war HERO?

When you hear the term "war hero", you usually think about someone who risked their life during wartime to save another soldier. Kerry was a bonafide war hero in that regard. Yet all I know about McCain is that he was a POW who was viciously tortured. I have no problem calling him an ex-POW, but I have a little trouble bringing myself to calling him a "war hero". Maybe I'm wrong, did he actually do anything that would garner him that "hero" status?

[LittleClarkie]

61. I'm not going there

It has nothing to do with his run for president.