Lets be honest. Dean is and always has been a part of the establishment.

[John_H]

Much has been made of Vermont's pro-corporate policies under dean--in fact he bragged about it in press release after press release. But that's not what this post is about.

These days, Howard's not keen on reminding anyone that, throughout his governorship, he endeavored to be an effective insider. In fact, Dean was as much a player in internal DNC party machinations and corporate fundraising as any DLC chair. And he raised money from exactly the same companies and organizations that the DLC raises money from--Philip Morris, The NRA, Pfizer, Microsoft, and many more.

POOP? Sorry.

Proof? Links? OK. Here we go. Dean was an active member, vice chair, and chair of the Democratic Governors' Association. As in any organization you have to lobby for and work your ass off for its chairmanship. Dean wanted it and he got it.

The DGA's main job is to raise money for Democratic Gubinatorial candidates. And the chair's job is to increase those totals under his or her watch. The chair is also intimately involved in national party internal operations (picking candidates, setting the policy agends, etc.),since he or she represents a major group of part insiders.

The DGA raises money the same way the DLC and every other fundraising group in america raises money--by providing access to Governors. They hold a number of events several times a year--luncheons, meetings, "policy conferences" etc.
http://www.democraticgovernors.org/calendar.html

You and I cannot go to these events. But donors can.

http://www.publicintegrity.org/527/search.aspx?act=com&orgid=139

In my view there's absolutely nothing wrong with this. This is the way the game is played. No money, the GOP runs the world.

But anyone who says howard dean is an "outsider" or "anti-establishment" or "left wing" is either naive or an out and out liar.

[quinnox]

1. Yes, of course he is, but his campaign isn't going to say that

They are going with the phony outsider bs, and many have swallowed it hook, line, and sinker.

And he was also a poster boy for the DLC in the 90's, which he convienently never mentions in his speeches.

[WiseMen]

38. It grates on me when Dean slam "Washinton Insiders" because it is Phony

[TLM]

48. Yet the DLC slams Dean for being a fringe leftist...

How ca you call Dean an insider when he is being attacked as a fringe leftist by those centrist insiders?

[ibegurpard]

56. Stop it!

You're making my head hurt, you meanie!

[WillyT]

57. Yep, The Good Doctor Is Being Attacked From All Sides...

Hmmm... Must be doin something right then.

:shrug:

[KissMyAsscroft]

2. His views and stances are anti-establishment...

Thats the point.

If he were truly an "insider" he would be Repub.

[John_H]

4. The point is that he says he's an outsider but he's the farthest

thing from it. He's a consumate insider and the facts that prove it are stubborn things.

If you support Dean because of his record, Fine. If you support him because of what he's saying to get the nomination--you owe it to yourself to look at the real record, unless you like the idea of voting for a guy who's trying to pass himself off as something he's not.

[KittyWampus]

10. Dean's Record Is Diametrically Opposed To His Current Positions...

on many key Liberal Issues...

so the people that say they support him for his record are... misinformed or kidding themselves.

[TLM]

49. Once again we see this claim repeated...

without a single specific example.

In Vt Dean;s main issues were healthcare, jobs, education, and balanced budgets. In his campaign his main issues are healthcare, jobs, education, and balanced budgets.

So where is the switch up?

It is not as if Dean was going to repuke fundraisers two years ago and applauding the great leadership of some of the worst republicans to hold political office in the last two decades.

[CMT]

3. of course he is

and he has acknowledged he is no flaming liberal himself. But it is the establishment that has attacked him.

[candy331]

5. Outsider? Insider? Who the

hell cares at this point? The country is sinking with this administration and someone needs to throw out a life raft to save it. To sit and argue over who will do it while the ship keeps sinking is meaningless. In the meantime the ship is still sinking "slowly but surely" and the fights go on and on and on ......................

Outsider, Insider, Anybody! save us before we all perish.

[cryofan]

30. I sure hope you do not go into a used car lot with that attitude....

....cuz you gonna get TAKEN!

Politics is like buying a car--it is a process of negotitation.

We Working People have interests that are often diametrically oppposed to the interests of the rich investors who provide the money behind elections. And you had better believe they are going to take us for EVERYTHING if we do not go in and drive a hard bargain (see the thread "Fighting for the Welfare State" for more info).

If you back Dean, you are going into that car lot and buying the car at the sticker price. I hope you bring your vaseline.....

[rucky]

6. Al Sharpton

is the only true outsider

hell, even Geppy is marketing himself as a man of the people as he smooches bush-butt with the other side of his mouth.

politics. what are ya going to do?
:shrug:

[blm]

7. Any other Dem get money from Koch Industries execs?

Dean was part of the right wing of the Dem party that pulled it further right throughout his time as governor.

It sickens me that so many have fallen for his election year conversion to populism. The man was one of the biggest CORPORATE WHORES out of all the Dem lawmakers. No wonder the CATO Institute loved him.

Oh yeah....don't the Koch brothers fund CATO, too?

[patricia92243]

8. Dean is an outsider of Washington, D.C. Naturally, he or anybody else has

to have some political connections, or it would be a total wast of time to run for the office of preez

That he is an outsider in Washington, all you need to see it how afraid the"establishment" democrats don't want him to win the nomination

[John_H]

9. the links prove that dean

IS a DC insider. The dean campaign says "establishment dems" are afraid of dean. The truth is that many of dean's "FELLOW estblishment dems" know he can't beat bush. They're right.

[Gloria]

11. He was one of a handful of governors that was called to the White House

by Clinton....I have the link somewhere because I was doing research for the article I wrote on the Dem message in 2004 for Buzzflash a few months ago....standby


This is the article, by the way...you might find it interesting....

http://www.zianet.com/insightanalytical/DemMessage91103.htm

[zulchzulu]

43. Dean is a DC insider and has been since 1991

Another big lie that Dean seems to think no one will challenge him on is that he's a "Washington DC outsider".

He has been actively going to DC not only when he was governor. Now of course, with Gore's endorsement, he is totally locked in as a DC insider.

Dean has had bi-weekly meetings in DC with various DC lobbyists all through 2003.

Don't believe the hype.

[LuminousX]

12. Again, ignore the labels and just look at the man

Labels are always inaccurate and are perception based anyway. 9 blind men groping an elephant will walk way with 9 different impressions of what the elephant was like.

[blm]

14. Look at the man's RECORD. It doesn't match the populist rhetoric

that he employs today, does it?

[LuminousX]

17. Rhetoric is rhetoric

His record is all that counts. I like what he has done and will do. He accomplishes what he says he will.

You are upset that he uses populist rhetoric to discuss his agenda. I don't say you shouldn't be. I don't care about the rhetoric any politician uses. It is like the tinsel on the tree to help put things within context. What really matters is the substance, the tree itself.

In Dean's case, the tree is in great shape. Does it have some bare patches? Yes. And since it isn't being stood in the corner, there is no way to hide them. All the trees available have bare patches too. It is a matter of selecting which one you can live with.

Rail against Dean's rhetoric all you want. Do whatever you think is necessary to pull Dean down. Do whatever you can to push your candidate forward. At the end of the day, I like the shape Dean is in, I like his agenda, I like what he has accomplished and what he says he will accomplish. I like his priorities. If he adds a veneer of populist rhetoric on top of it... that is just icing on the cake.

[TLM]

23. Lets see...

In VT Dean's big issues were education, healthcare, jobs, and balanced budgets.... Dean is now running on education, healthcare, jobs, and balanced budgets.

Looks to me like they match pretty damn well in fact.

Would you care to point out the issues where Dean has done this huge 180?

[TLM]

44. Still waiting for that list....

I see this claim about Dean switching around from how he ran vermont to how he is running for president... yet whenever i ask for a specific list of issue he has doe the 180 on... it gets real quiet.

[flpoljunkie]

24. The press failed to look at Bush's record in Texas. Same thing with Dean!

The lazy, feckless press is much too interested in the horse race aspect of the campaign, and again, are failing to do their job--this time, it is Dean's record in Vermont they have failed to examine.

[cryofan]

25. The Man was born of Silver-Spoon privilege

His dad was a Wall Street stock broker...and that was back in the days when Wall Street was mostly Skull and Bones Yale men....And the fruit don't fall too far from the tree...hell, Dean even went to Yale at the same time as Bush. Dean's grandmother invited Bush's grandmother to her wedding. Now THAT is the man....

[LuminousX]

26. LOL

I'm glad you think so well of FDR and Kennedy.

[9119495]

35. Dean went to Yale? Wow, I'm not voting for him...stupid college boy

So now that my vote is open, can someone give me the name of a candidate that (1) was born to a well-to-do family but sat up in his or her crib and rejected that life-style, crawled their way up through the political ranks and can get elected president, or (2) was born poor, went to college, and then rejected the profit motive and lives the life of an aesthetic wandering from house to house trying to get his or her name on the ballot?

Thanks in advance.

Should an answer not pan out, I will abandon the whole money hating and college hating thing and pick a candidate who is with me on the issues that I think may get elected...which would be Howard Dean.

[RetroLounge]

13. So what? Inside, outside, upside Down?

Who gives a f*ck.

He's the one who puts out words and policies that back my thoughts and feelings.

He's the one who gives me hope.

He's the one who has got me to WORK for a candidate, not just vote and post about one.

He's the one who has got me to donate to a politician for the first time in my life.

He's the one who has excited people and got them involved again.

He's the one who can take back this country, with the help of the people, and apparently, lots of people believe that.

He's the one who can beat bush*.

He's the one who had the closest views on Iraq to my own.

He's the one who I am supporting.

Insider? Outsider? Whatever...

[Colin Ex]

15. Well...

This is going to make me come off like a douchebag to the hardcore people, and I'm sure it's been said before, but I'm going to say it again.

Pumping you and the rest of the Democratic base up isn't going to make the choices he makes as president any better. It's safe to say that the establishment people are faithful to the establishment, which means (while I am certainly not insinuating it would be Dubya Part II) four more years of not much progress. Sure, we wouldn't ride in like horny cowboys on Christmas and kill innocent people every few months a la Dubya, but I can't see social conditions getting better or the Patriot Act getting repealed under Dean.

Flame away.

-C

[curse10]

20. horny cowboys!

LoL!!

[Gloria]

16. I haven't found the link I wanted...but I came up with this one by

accident, from very early on in the Clinton Administration....1993....
(The one I was looking for was from 1994, I think, when Clinton was looking for advice on an issue...I wish I could remember the details of that story)

http://search.netscape.com/ns/boomframe.jsp?query=Howard+Dean+meets+Clinton+in+White+House&page=7&offset=0&result_url=redir%3Fsrc%3Dwebsearch%26amp%3BrequestId%3D708b2d9c352164a5%26amp%3BclickedItemRank%3D68%26amp%3BuserQuery%3DHoward%2BDean%2Bmeets%2BClinton%2Bin%2BWhite%2BHouse%26amp%3BclickedItemURN%3Dhttp%253A%252F%252Fwww.ibiblio.org%252Fpub%252Farchives%252Fwhitehouse-papers%252F1993%252FDec%252FPresident-Meets-with-Intergovernmental-Relations-Commission%26amp%3BinvocationType%3Dnext%26amp%3BfromPage%3DNSCPNextPrev&remove_url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.ibiblio.org%2Fpub%2Farchives%2Fwhitehouse-papers%2F1993%2FDec%2FPresident-Meets-with-Intergovernmental-Relations-Commission


Office of the Press Secretary


For Immediate Release December 1, 1993

PRESIDENT MEETS WITH INTERGOVERNMENTAL RELATIONS COMMISSION

President Clinton spoke this morning at a meeting of the
Advisory Council on Intergovernmental Relations, which was
created during the 1970s to foster better relations between all
levels of government. Its primary functions are to provide an
intergovernmental problem-solving forum, policy recommendations
for intergovernmental cooperation, identification of emerging
issues, information dissemination, and technical and
international assistance.

The Commission's members are:

William F. Winter, Chair, Former Governor of Mississippi
Carol Browner, EPA Administrator
Arne Carlson, Governor of Minnesota
Howard Dean, Governor of Vermont
Marcia L. Hale, White House Director of Intergovernmental
Affairs
Arthur Hamilton, Minority Leader, Arizona House of
Representatives
Michael Leavitt, Governor of Utah
Bob Miller, Governor of Nevada
Gloria Molina, Member, Los Angeles County Board of Supervisers
Richard Riley, Secretary of Education
John Stroger, Commissioner of Cook County, IL and Immediate Past
President of the National Association of Counties

[TLM]

51. Do you understand the difference between being an insider...

and working with groups like the one you listed?


It is like the difference between going to a strip club owned by mob guys, and actually being in the mob.

Nobody has claimed Dean has no connection to DC or never worked with anybody from DC... they say Dean is not part of this DC power elite. He's not in their little smokey back room club.

I also do not consider Kucinich to be a DC insider... and he is in congress. But he's not really very welcome by these power elite types.

Please stop trying to confuse working in or having worked with folks in DC, with being the same as being a DC power elite insider.

[LSK]

18. typical political badgering

Thats all I seem to hear from supporters of other Candidates. And thats why your guy is behind Dean in the polls.

Spend less time attacking Dean, and tell us why your candidate gives you hope, why your candidate would be able to beat Bush.

The only thing I know about Kerry is that he attacks Dean everytime he can. Why would I vote for him?

That is what the other candidates dont get and Dean gets. He is just there to talk about issues, and not mudsling. Most Americans have had enough mudslinging. We dont want that.

Thats why I am in favor of Dean at this time. If I wanted typical political mudslinging and half-truths, I would be a Bush follower.

[Zomby Woof]

19. Dean is a mudslinger and lies

He may not be as good at it as Bush, but he is good enough at it to hoodwink people I once thought were intelligent to send him money and support him.

Dean's campaign motto: I tell smaller half-truths and am only slightly less of a corporate whore than Bush!

[blm]

22. Dean made his name ATTACKING the others and the Dem party.

The press has never held him accountable for his deceptive rhetoric so now the other candidates have no choice but to do the job that journalists refuse to do.

Why aren't you wondering why the press has waited so long to cover Dean's real deceptions in this race. You know they will when he's the nominee and it's too late for Dem primary voters.

[LuminousX]

27. Yep, an asterisk has to do a lot to get people's attention.

[Zomby Woof]

28. Some ARE getting the word out blm!

Check out this article from a pair of Washington Post reporters which appeared in the Phoenix paper yesterday. A NEWS article, not an editorial. Some in the press are wising up to this charaltan. (my emphasis added in the article)

Dean's comments elicit quick criticism from rivals

Jim VandeHei and Jonathan Finer
Washington Post
Dec. 18, 2003 12:00 AM


BURLINGTON, Vt. - Howard Dean's penchant for flippant and sometimes false statements is generating increased criticism from his Democratic presidential rivals and raising new questions about his ability to emerge as a nominee who can withstand intense, sustained scrutiny and defeat President Bush.

Dean, for instance, recently spoke of a "most interesting theory" that Saudi Arabia had "warned" Bush about the terrorist attacks of Sept. 11, 2001. While Dean said he does not believe Bush was tipped off about the assaults that killed nearly 3,000, he has made no apologies for raising the rumor.

link: http://www.azcentral.com/news/articles/1218dean18.html

[TLM]

29. Cite the dishonest attacks Dean made?

So far the only thing I've seen to cite when asked this is that Dean said Kerry voted for some of Bush tax cuts and that Dean dismissed Kucinich by not mentioning him as another candidate who was against the Iraq war.

WHat attack on other dems from Dean was untrue?

Other dems did vote for the IWR... they did vote for the 350 billion tax cut amendment... they did vote for the patriot act... they did vote for no child left behind.

And the fact is the vicious attacks started from KERYY'S CAMP and you know this as I have repeatedly cited the attack from Feb on Dean for wanting UN support in Iraq.

Kerry' campaign attacked Dean for wanting the UN behind any action in Iraq... yet has now flip flopped and says he wants what he was attacking Dean for wanting.

Talk about a dishonest deceptive attack... Just for kicks, BLM, can you cite the attacks on Kerry from Dean before this that are so bad? As far as I know Dean was only attacking Kerry's voting record prior to this.

http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2003/02/25/opinion/lynch/main541905.shtml

Kerry's campaign manager, Jim Jordan, snapped at Dean's insistence on getting U.N. backing (a position supported by three-quarters of Democrats and 53 percent of Independents). "Gov. Dean, in effect, seems to be giving the U.N. veto power over national security decisions of the United States. That's an extraordinary proposition, one never endorsed by any U.S. president or serious candidate for the presidency," he told the Associated Press' Ron Fournier.

[blm]

31. Dean said they supported BUSH'S taxcuts for the wealthiest. NONE of them

supported that but it didn't stop Dean from saying it.

Dean is the one who reduced the debate on Iraq to balck and white, antiwar and prowar, eliminating all nuance in his position and the others. That's what DEMAGOGUES do when they need to DECEIVE their audiences.

[LSK]

34. why did they vote for these things then

Fact is some of them voted for the War and some of them voted for the tax cut. If you are against something, why would you vote for it?

[blm]

37. NONE of the Dem candidates voted for Bush's taxcut. NONE.

Where are you getting your facts, Dean's stump speeches where truth is scarce?

[Scott Lee]

39. That would be a first for the IWR Bush enablers.

[TLM]

46. I get my facts from the senate.gov website record of votes...

They all voted for the 350 billion dollar version of Bush 700 billion dollar dividiend tax cut this year.

http://www.senate.gov/legislative/LIS/roll_call_lists/roll_call_vote_cfm.cfm?congress=108&session=1&vote=00076

Vote Summary

Question: On the Amendment (Breaux Amdt. No. 339, as Modified )
Vote Number: 76 Vote Date: March 21, 2003, 02:52 PM
Required For Majority: 1/2 Vote Result: Amendment Rejected
Amendment Number: S.Amdt. 339 to S.Con.Res. 23
Statement of Purpose: To reduce tax cut to $350 billion.
Vote Counts: YEAs 38 NAYs 62

Edwards (D-NC) Yea
Kerry (D-MA), Yea
Lieberman (D-CT), Yea

[Scott Lee]

42. Please cite proof of this accusation. I'll wait.

[Scott Lee]

59. Can you believe it? I'm still waiting!

[TLM]

45. LOL! But they did support some of Bush's cuts... we've been over this

I have repeatedly cited the voting record from the 350 billion dollar democratic response to the 700 billion dollar Bush tax cut introduced in January of this year...when Dean made the comment. Your only response was to try and claim Dean was talking about some other tax cut, not the one the dems had just introduced when he made the comments, and was therefore lying.

They all voted for that 350 billion amendment.

U.S. Senate Roll Call Votes 108th Congress - 1st Session

as compiled through Senate LIS by the Senate Bill Clerk under the direction of the Secretary of the Senate


Vote Summary

Question: On the Amendment (Breaux Amdt. No. 339, as Modified )
Vote Number: 76 Vote Date: March 21, 2003, 02:52 PM
Required For Majority: 1/2 Vote Result: Amendment Rejected
Amendment Number: S.Amdt. 339 to S.Con.Res. 23
Statement of Purpose: To reduce tax cut to $350 billion.
Vote Counts: YEAs 38 NAYs 62

Edwards (D-NC) Yea
Kerry (D-MA), Yea
Lieberman (D-CT), Yea


So no, BLM, Dean did not lie when he said that Dems were supporting Bush's tax cuts. There’s the voting record right there of them supporting 350 billion of those tax cuts.

"Dean is the one who reduced the debate on Iraq to black and white, antiwar and prowar, eliminating all nuance in his position and the others. That's what DEMAGOGUES do when they need to DECEIVE their audiences."

HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAAHHAHA!!! Are you joking? Every other attack I have seen Dean bashers make on Dean about the war is that he was too nuanced and supported the BL bill. In fact even you have attempted to make the argument that the BL and IWR were the same thing.

You folks have quoted Dean's comments about 60 day time frames and what he said would be a justification for war... yet now you try to say he made the issue black and white? The fact is that Dean's position was clear... there was no justification for a unilateral pre-emptive war in Iraq without UN support.

Kerry said very much the same thing, but then Kerry caved in and voted for the IWR and started attacking UN support as a way to take shots at Dean.

Face it... Kerry f-ed up. He got scared and voted for the IWR to keep the republicans from attacking him as un-American and in doing so he lost the support of the democratic base. Calling Dean a liar because Kerry made the wrong choice, will not win back the supporters Kerry betrayed.

[Scott Lee]

58. Get the feeling they are running out of material....FAST?

[Scott Lee]

41. you forgot "kicks puppies, drinks the blood of the dead..."

and other sordid details. Come on blm, you're losing your touch here.

[TLM]

21. Kerry, Edwards, and Lieberman

are all CURRENTLY DLC members.

Clark was a f-ing defense lobbyist and advisor to Kissinger's CSIS... talk about an insider.



Dean is an outsider in that his agenda is not that of the insider organizations... he has worked with and through these groups in the past, however that's not the same as saying he is part of the power broker DC elite.

[mikehiggins]

32. Dude, he's a professional politician, not an idealistic populist reformer

Why is that so hard to accept?

It has nothing to do with Kerry and Clark and Edwards and Sharpton, and everything to do with Dean. He is not the White Knight of Virtue who is going to lead America and the world into a new era of truth and justice. He's a small state governor who has found some hot-button topics and a combative style that plays well to the disgruntled among the Democrats.

He agrees with you on some issues? Of course he does. He has to if he wants to win. Just like the people who first called the Beatles the best band in the world, he's tapped into a new wave and he's riding the crest for as far as he can.

The insistence of so many Dean supporters to paint Dean as some sort of "new thing" in the political world is what makes so many of us old cynical types distrust them and use words like "cult" and "fanatics" when we discuss them.

To be honest, we also worry about our peers in the Clark campaign who view Wes as some "man on a white horse" who will solve all of our problems with unparralled brilliance and rasorsharp clarity of vision. They are just as bad. Their only saving grace is that we don't see very many of them around, except on sites like this.

The Dean people, on the other hand, seem to be everywhere.

[Colin Ex]

33. I think you nailed it.

Or at least I agree with you.

-C

[TLM]

47. I think he is both... as the two are not contradictory.

Paul Wellstone for example... also a skilled politician and an idealist reformer with a populist message.

However being an elite DC insider like Kerry or Gephardt or Clark is not the same thing as being a skilled politician. I mean look at Clark, he is as insider as you can get, but as a politician he sucks.

"He is not the White Knight of Virtue who is going to lead America and the world into a new era of truth and justice. He's a small state governor who has found some hot-button topics and a combative style that plays well to the disgruntled among the Democrats."

No he is a small state governor who stood up and took the correct position on those hot-button issues when guys like Kerry and Gephardt and Lieberman sold us out to the republicans because they thought it would help their careers. I do not think of Dean as some white knight... I think of him more like the guy who got your back in a bar fight when your so called friends were nowhere to be found.

Dean and Kucinich were the guys who were there when it counted and for that they get my first consideration for the nomination. And since I find Kucinich a bit annoying and am uncomfortable with his abortion record, he falls to second behind Dean.

"He agrees with you on some issues? Of course he does. He has to if he wants to win."

Dean agrees with me on almost every issue, more so than anybody else running. Plus he has the record to back it up... and he wasn’t speaking at repuke fundraisers about how great Reagan is/was just 2 years ago.

"Just like the people who first called the Beatles the best band in the world, he's tapped into a new wave and he's riding the crest for as far as he can."

Yeah but those people were right… at the time the Beatles WERE the best band in the world. The Beatles did not simply hang the same old crapy music on a wave of hype... they really did do something new and change the face of music forever because of it. Magical Mystery Tour is still one of the best albums ever written and holds up to this day because of that fact.

You are correct... Dean is very much the Beatles of politics. He's doing things in a new way and has people excited in a way nobody expected. Some folks hated the Beatles because they did things differently, they were too edgy for some, and the establishment folks were very timid at first. I recall my mother telling me about watching the Beatles on Ed Sullivan… her father was not comfortable with the group, not because of their music, but because of how excited their fans were. The reaction to Dean is very similar.


"The insistence of so many Dean supporters to paint Dean as some sort of "new thing" in the political world is what makes so many of us old cynical types distrust them and use words like "cult" and "fanatics" when we discuss them."

Rather like the old cynical types who felt the same way about the Beatles and their crazy cult of fans. It is the fact Dean is doing this a new way, and being so successful at doing things a new way, that makes some folks who are so used to the old way so uncomfortable.

Rather like a horse running back into a burning barn because in times of fear they seek the comfort of what is familiar.

[mikehiggins]

50. One major difference, using the Beatles analogy?

Nobody had the right to vote on the Beatles.

Would John, Paul, George and Ringo have been electable in the US or would they have lost to Frankie Valli and the Four Seasons?

[TLM]

53. What were the billboard charts...

if not a measure of listener's choice/vote?


The songs that got the most requests and the most sales and the most air time as a result toped the charts.

How many number one hits did the Beatles have? How many gold records did the Beatles have?

I think your analogy Dean = The Beatles was more true than you intended.

[JohnKleeb]

36. He was chairman of the governors wasn't he

That sounds establishment to me. :shrug: I could care less. I got my own candiate to support, no need to talk Dean.

[mzmolly]

40. Good, makes him the most electable for certain now.

:hi: He is a fighting centrist in the words of Molly Ivins, and he is empowering the voters, which is what we need.

[quaker bill]

52. Just who other than Al Sharpton isn't?

I agree with you on the left wing bit. Dean's harshest critics are either from the right wing or the left wing... Damn, I can't tell anymore!! but they are both pitching a fit.

Other than Sharpton, all these guys are government professionals. They seem pretty establishment to me.

When you become a Govenor, or a Senator, a Member of the US House of Representatives, an Ambassador, or a 4 Star General you have pretty much met the definition of 'establishment'.

From there it is all relative and depends on your proposals.

[TLM]

54. That's not what folks mean by establishment...

The establishment are the folk who hold the power now... on the left and the right. The smokey back room deal makers and inside players.

Simply being in government doesn't make you an insider any more than knowing a guy in the mob makes you a made guy.

[quaker bill]

55. I take your point.

The analogy is a bit weak though. Being an elected official is rather more like being a 'made man' than just knowing one.

No one running is truly anti-establishment. (ok, granted, with the possible exception of DK) On the other hand, I buy entirely that Dean is outside the 'Washington Elite', terms I think he has used to describe it. Terms I also find a bit more descriptive and accurate.

When asked, Dean declines the lables liberal or conservative, saying niether one truly fits. He is correct in this. His politics are a third way, and are not well described within the limits of this dichotomy. My wife has proposed 'militant centrist' but I don't think that quite captures it either.

If the establishment is understood as the classic tension between right and left, then Dean is anti-establishment because he proposes an alternate route.