Seating FL and MI disenfranchises Obama voters

[mkultra]

Obama took his name off the ballot in MI as he was required based on the pledge they all signed. So no one had the chance to vote for him there. In FL, he told people not to participate or vote uncommitted if they must. Many Obama supporters stayed home since it was an invalid primary.

If you seat, you disenfranchise, if your don't, you disenfranchise. The only fair solution is to follow the rules.

[Texas Hill Country]

1. no, no it does not. you need to check the definition of disenfranchise.

[mkultra]

2. actually it does.

they didn't get a right to vote in MI and seating MI gives the right to Clinton supporters but not Obama supporters.

The same is true of FL>

[bunnies]

3. So to the people who stayed home after being told their vote would not count...

you say Screw Em? :thumbsup:

[democrattotheend]

5. Unless not a single voter wanted to vote for Obama in Michigan, they are disenfranchised

Giving Obama 0 votes does not reflect the will of the people of Michigan any more than seating the delegates 50-50 does.

[Texas Hill Country]

17. in MI, Obama disenfranchised them by taking his name off the ballot for no good reason.

[mckeown1128]

18. BS... he took his name off the ballot because he

didn't want to be used to legitimize an unsanctioned primary and a rogue state party.

He took his name off because MI wasn't going to count for anything.

[democrattotheend]

29. Just like Bill Clinton did in 1996

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=132&topic_id=6065035&mesg_id=6065035

[mckeown1128]

34. Thanks I've honestly never heard about that before...

The hypocrisy is staggering.






I'm sure the media will be all over this....:sarcasm:

[NobleCynic]

32. Changing the weighting of votes is a form of disenfranchisement

Whether it is fair is a different question.

[Terran]

40. I agree, but HRC people need to stop using that word too

Hilary voters are not "disenfranchised" if FL and MI results are not validated. I see that here a LOT and it's pure spin.

[K Gardner]

4. Clinton Surrogate on Abrams Last Night: "Obama gets ZERO votes from MI".. to add

to his popular vote totals. Hillary gets ALL of hers.

Now THAT is disenfranchisement.

Evidently now, her chief strategist Geoff Garin, is claiming Hillary won more pledged delegates. I'm beyond feeling she needs to be dragged off this stage. What a disaster she has become, and embarassment.

[cali]

7. it's not worth being outraged about

The RBC will give Obama the uncommitted- and probably more.

[virtualobserver]

9. the outrage comes because she is attempting to undermine the legitimacy of the process

very destructive

[Samantha]

10. It's not within the purview of a Presidential candidate to interpret

the rules of a Presidential election. Just as the Supreme Court intervention into the 2000 election controversy was a political intervention, not a legally-justifiable one, (read Justice Stevens' dissent on that), it is, when a candidate anoints him or herself to interpret the rules, that's a political intervention, not a Constitutional remedy. It's obvious to all who are not interested in the Constitution, however, that no one can justify this obvious conflict of interest in Hillary Clinton interpreting the law as to whether Florida votes should be counted of rejected.

Her speech in Florida was outrageous. Her comparison between this situation and the Florida 2000 recount debacle was laughable on its face. Egregiously missing in her statement "count every vote," referencing the Florida Supreme Court opinion in that situation, was beyond appalling.

Counting every legitimate vote was the issue, not every vote. Counting literally every vote can be construed as condoning ballot box stuffing ...

The Constitution of the United States delegates the authority to conduct elections to the individual states. The State Legislatures outline the rules of those elections in order to elect a Slate of Electors to be counted as representative of the vote of that state. These laws enacted by the State Legislatures are embedded in each State constitution, and can only be changed by amendment by that Legislature, not declaration of a candidate running for President. It's mind-boggling that Hillary would interject herself in this process for the benefit of overtaking an opponent in the primary process.

Someone from the Obama camp needs to address the legality of these issues in a way that's acceptable to the voting public. Hillary's remarks needed to be rejected unequivocally as inappropriate and self-serving. Just as the Senate has the authority to reject a Slate of Electors from a particular state when Constitution violations occur, the Democratic National Committee, under the auspices of which these state primaries were run and to which the state politicians are willing members, has the authority to reject those votes which were illegally registered. By violating the rules, the state politicians of Florida rendered the votes registered during the primary as illegitimate. Punishing Hillary's opponent in this election for that irregularity is no more fair than the Supreme Court negating the votes of 51 million people through the United States in 2000 in order to avoid giving a "disproportionate amount of weight" to those votes counted in a recount over the votes of those whose votes were counted in the first round. Yes, that's a convoluted argument, but I didn't make it, Rehnquist, Scalia, et al,, did, and I am just revisiting it.

In making the speech this morning in Florida that Hillary made, she in essence appointed herself to act as the ruling body on this issue, interpreting the law as she saw fit, much in the same role as the Supreme Court allowed itself to play in 2000. Unbelievable.

I could not help but wonder if Al Gore was doing a slow burn as he heard Hillary the candidate this morning interpreting the election laws to suit her own candidacy. But as someone whose vote for Al Gore was negated by the Supreme Court in 2000 because of election irregularities in the State of Florida, I KNEW I WAS AFIRE WITH FURY listening to Hillary compare the two situations.

[TahitiNut]

16. The only Constitutionally valid 'remedy' for Florida in 2000 at the FEDERAL level ...

... was to prohibit their electoral votes due to an invalid election - on the same "equal protection" grounds. At the Federal level, that the sole choice: either accept the electors or reject them. The same principle is at play regarding the primaries that were RULED as invalid even BEFORE they were held. They cannot be accepted as valid and legitimate.

Even the pretense of validity is an acceptance of 'voter caging' and all manner of election fraud that portrays the election as other than it is.

Without conducting a valid and legitimate primary or caucus, as provide in the party's rules, NO DELEGATION can be acceptable.

The bell was rung and CANNOT be unrung. The Michigan primary, in particular, was a complete and utter FUBAR. It cannot be "fixed" and any pretense of doing so is itself fraudulent and unprincipled.

[Samantha]

22. I just expressed these exact sentiments on other threads so I am

in complete agreement. The State of Florida's legislature rendered this primary and the votes cast therein as "illegitimate." I am furious at Hillary Clinton's speech this morning. She made a caricature of election law in that speech - appointing herself, a candidate, as the judicial interpreter (Read Supreme Court) of the rules. Beyond appalling.

As Justice Stevens said in his infamous dissent to the 2000 Supreme Court, decision, the Court acted politically, not Constitutionally, in intervening in a Presidential election. And that's exactly what Hillary is trying to do under the cloak of "counting every vote." Count every legitimate vote.

[liberaldem4ever]

26. I can't believe that any reasonable person

would agree to give Obama no votes from MI and all of the votes to Hillary. It's like Hillary supporters think they can say anything at all and people should believe and support it. Some of things I'm hearing today from Hillary and her camp I can't believe I've heard. I'm getting more than a little frustrated with this whole thing.

[Kittycat]

39. No method of math shows that she's won more delegates.

Even when you seat MI & FL without accurate representation to Obama. What the hell kind of numbers where they using? The ONLY math Hillary wins under is Republican rule, which prematurely ends the race after a few big states vote.

[tokenlib]

6. I agree with you--we were screwed in MI--Clinton wants my vote not counted.

Some dem voters voted for Romney for fun and games--there were calls on the blogs to do so.. MI was one FUBAR mess. Disenfranchisement goes both ways. The 50% with no SD's would be acceptable--only to put the issue to rest.

[cyberpj]

8. Unreal. If those states get a reprieve they must REVOTE to be fair. And who wants to wait for that?

Not me.

[suston96]

11. Obama supporters voted "uncommitted" in Michigan, as they were instructed by....

....John Conyers. Seated "uncommitted" delegates can all vote for Obama at the Convention in August.

The argument that Obama supporters couldn't vote for him in Michigan is bullshit! They did vote for him. In huge numbers.

Unite the Democratic party at the convention by seating ALL states and their delegates!

Unite! Or die!

[TahitiNut]

14. Horse shit!

SOME stayed home. SOME didn't take the time off from work! SOME voted on the GOP ballot. SOME voted "Uncommitted." SOME voted for a candidate whose name they recognized.

NOT ONE DEMOCRATIC CANDIDATE CAMPAIGNED in Michigan! Not one candidate faced the voters in Michigan and addressed their concnerns. Not one candidate spent a single dime in Michigan, with the highest unemployment and highest rate of foreclosures! Not ONE VOTE was EARNED!

The primary was a FUBAR! It was "voter caging" on a grand scale! NOBODY with an ounce of ethics or the slightest principles can ethically argue to validate that primary. Nobody.

[Texas Hill Country]

20. actually Ms. Nut... there was a massive effort to get people to vote uncommitted. sorry.

[TahitiNut]

25. You don't know what the fuck you're talking about.

First off, I'm not a "Ms." so you can shove that condescending shit right up your ass.

More significantly, I'm a resident and voter in Michigan. You aren't. I KNOW what happened here and I KNOW what people were told and the various actions they chose to take. Keep your fucking nose out of Michigan's problems and try paying more attention to Texas's problems .. they need it.

You're obviously pimping for the Clinton campaign and recognize neither the Pledge she made, nor the rules of the DNC, nor the principles essential to fair and open elections.

Stuff it.

[tokenlib]

30. As a Michigander, you are correct and I applaud your comments!!n/t

[mathewsleep]

27. hi, i live in michigan.

you are wrong.

[mkultra]

35. dont lie texas.

[mckeown1128]

21. Horse sh$t...

you have no evidence of you claim... Exit polls indicated that at least 20% of those who voted for Clinton wanted to vote for Obama.


You sound like joke: "unite or die" give me a break. How about we have a fair and open primary where one candidate doesn't try to change the rules just because she is losing. The voters deserved to know BEFORE hand what the vote was for. If Hillary wanted delegates counted from MI and FL the time to push for was BEFORE the process began. How dare she try to steal votes from MI and FL.

[NobleCynic]

33. Uncommitted could be Kucinich, Clinton, Dodd, Biden

Everybody non-Hillary doesn't mean everybody Obama.

[TahitiNut]

12. I guess voter "caging" and other anti-GOTV election fraud is OK for *some* Democrats.

What the hell ... just tell folks it doesn't count or give them the wrong date or the wrong polling location. It's just fine and good for *some* folks ... especially if *THEY'RE* (mostly) black and *WE'RE* (mostly) white, huh?

That's EXACTLY what those who whine about twisting around and 'counting' the FUBAR, bullshit 'election' in Michigan are doing.

The people who advocate this vomit are disgusting, unprincipled pieces of maggot shit!

:grr: :grr: :grr:

[suston96]

13. Obama WAS on the ballot in Michigan

237,762 votes! The delegates they represent can be seated as "uncommitted" and they can all vote for Obama.....

....who probably won't even need them.

Wake up! Unite the party. Seat all the states.

[Texas Hill Country]

23. agreed.

[mathewsleep]

28. disagreed

follow the fucking rules!

[mkultra]

37. he WAS NOT on the ballot and your lying

uncommited are people voting against Hillary, not for Obama.

[RBInMaine]

15. There will be a COMPROMISE, Obama WILL be the nominee, FL and MI WILL have delegations because they

are VERY key states, and if TeamHillary balks at the compromise, they'll be overruled and the Supers with flow to Obama like a tidal wave.

[Samantha]

19. The State of Florida legislature rendered this primary illegitimate

and thus the votes cast therein so when it broke the rules of the DNC, the governing body conducting the primary election. Participation in a political party is a volunteer move, not a forced one. When one belongs to a political party, election rules must be observed or chaos within the party will reign. Breaking the rules makes the election null and void, and just as a state's Slate of Electors can be refused in a Presidential counting of the votes by the Senate, so can a primary election be nullified by the governing party conducting the race. Same principle.

[Tommy_Carcetti]

24. Anyone who sat at home in Florida has only themselves to blame.

If you are given only one day in which to cast your vote, you vote. Period. Ask questions later. Voting is too important a right to sit out on the sidelines.

[mkultra]

38. anyone who let them break the rules has only themselves to blame.

State leadership decided to break the rules, now they suffer.

[AZBlue]

31. True - and I'm not for it for that reason. BUT...it would also give him the nomination.

[undeterred]

36. Seat, but the votes don't get counted.

Follow the rules.

[baldguy]

41. And it isn't the DNC or the Obama campaign who's doing the disenfranchising.

Its FL and MI who's disenfranchising FL and MI.