The first and last time the supers over rode the delgate choice Dems got their asses handed to them

[Boz]

In the general.

Walter Mondale 1984.

Won the Big states like Pennsylvania and New York, was the beltway choice, was behind in the primaries when all the voting was completed on June 6th.

Almost all of the newly created super delegates cast for Mondale giving him the Nom.

AND HE LOST THE GENERAL ELECTION 49 STATES to 1

Couple of interesting side notes from that history, who created the position of superdelegates, Harold McEwen Ickes, Bill CLintons chief of staff and Hillary Clintons Current Chief Campaign Strategist.

Mondale chose Geraldine Anne Ferraro as his Vice President, to appeal to attract blue-collar voters and stress middle-class values and her main role was to minimalize the impact of the loss of the african american votes, that were going to Jesse Jackson, by going after women.

And what is her role today, literally hours ago, to minimalize the womens vote for Obama by telling women that Obama is a sexist and she is also marginalizing African American votes, saying they are only voting for him because he is black.

The Goal of Ferraros efforts? To imply and try to make Obama unelectable in the eyes of the Ickes Superdelgates so that they will over turn the primary outcome for Hillary Clinton the same way they did for her chance, but by throwing all the Democratic reason she ran in 84 to the wind and doing the opposite.

If these political insiders get their way, the ones like Hillary touting 35 years of experience, the ones like Ferraro throwing away the democratic compasses that they ran on in the 80s, and doing it using some backroom dealing setup by ICKES in the first place, the outcome will be the same as the first time they did it.

THE DEMS WILL HAVE THEIR ASSES HANDED TO THEM AGAIN, because party insiders chose their idea of a candidate, rather than allowing
the democrats to choose their candidate.

[AllentownJake]

1. It isn't going to happen

5 Super Delegates a day have been moving to Obama.

[Andy823]

2. I don't think it will happen either.

But it did, I have to agree with the OP. Not only would every republican come out to vote if Hillary were "given" the nomination, but she would lose the AA vote, all the young voters who have come on board for Obama, independents who would not vote for her, cross over republicans that are fed up with their party, and many of the so called "elite" white Obama voters, who I don't believe are all the elite at all!

It would be a disaster waiting to happen.

[Raine1967]

3. Obama is no Walter Mondale

This is history in the making.

And people like Ferraro need to sit back and SERIOUSLY, STOP the divisive crap, and have a little more faith in the people who are part of this party. Obama built his campaign from the ground up, and gave people a CHOICE to be a part of this campaign.



Obama is the nominee. That is a reality.

[Rosa Luxemburg]

12. Obama is different than Mondale or anyone that we've had

[Rosa Luxemburg]

13. Obama is different than Mondale or anyone that we've had

[Boz]

14. Absolutely, but the clintons and Ferraro and those Washington Insiders pushing the SD solution cant

See that at all. They are stuck in their world where they know more than the American people about what we need and they are going to force us to listen to them for our own good.

[slinkerwink]

4. Ferraro seems to have forgotten how her primary votes didn't translate into the general election.

[MonkeyFunk]

31. What are you talking about?

What primaries did Ferraro run in?

[anonymous171]

5. Don't tell that to Hillary. She's going to pull a Kennedy.

[book_worm]

6. that's not really the case. Mondale at the end of the primary season had a very big lead in pledged

delegates over Hart. Look it up. It didn't take many super delegates to decide race. Reagan had the '84 campaign in the bag no matter who the Democrats nominated. Oh, it's possible Hart may have won a few more states, but it wasn't a Democratic year.

[Beregond2]

7. That's right.

Hart blew it himself by failing to keep his dick in his pants.

[Spider Jerusalem]

8. That was four years later, in 1988

and Hart was still a better candidate than Mondale (and probably would have been a better candidate than Dukakis, if not for his unfortunate inability to keep it zipped)

[Boz]

9. Mondale was behind becasue he lost california, proportional delegates didn't come until 1988

Mondales nomination included almost 700 supers. Almost 500 before the primary started, he had to grab the final ones to overthrow Harts Primary win on June 6th when he lost california which meant he lost the primary.

[MonkeyFunk]

17. But Mondale wasn't behind

he was far ahead of Hart. He just was short of the number needed for the nomination, and the superdelegates put him over the top.

I've seen this repeated here a lot lately, and I don't know where it comes from. Mondale was far ahead of Hart in pledged delegates.

[Boz]

20. No he was far ahead in supers, we are talking 1984 not 88

[MonkeyFunk]

22. I'm talking about 1984 and I think you're wrong

[Boz]

27. See #26

[MonkeyFunk]

28. You don't list any sources for that

In May of '84, Mondale lead Hart 1564 to 941.

http://www.time.com/time/magazine/article/0,9171,951089,00.html


In 1984, there were a total of 568 superdelegates (see page 3 of the Time article above). AT the convention, Mondale received 2191 delegates and Hart got 1201.

Even if every superdelegate went to Mondale, he still had more pledged delegates than Hart.

[2rth2pwr]

10. The last two nominees who won based on delegates only -lost.

Both times b*sh ended up in office.

[Boz]

11. Because a Clinton disgraced the office and lost a lot of independents that converted back

Without the crossover the Democrats weren't strong enough in actualizing their GOTV against the Older more stable Republican voters and their conversion and adoption of the Christian right.

Obama has recaptured both the Independents and completely energized the GOTV crowd, thats how he has beat Hillary Clinton in the primary, those numbers will extrapolate 3 times, which is the standard for primary versus GE, and that will convert into more people will vote in the fall for Obama than voted for both Dem candidates in the last two presidential elections combined.

Welcome to 2008.

[FredScuttle]

16. Not to mention a certain ex-First Lady and then-Senator from NY barely campaigned for Kerry

n/t

[MonkeyFunk]

19. lol

now it's "barely" campaigned.

At least you guys stopped lying that they did nothing at all.

Do you have any evidence that the Clintons did any less than what was asked or expected of them?

[FredScuttle]

21. One of the most prominent Democrats in the Senate and her husband, the last Dem president

have to be "asked" to campaign for the fucking nominee?

Oh yeah, that's right...unless the invitation was couriered out to Chappaqua on a silver platter, Bubba and the Queen wouldn't lift a finger.

In an election that close, they should have done more. But 2008 was so close....

[MonkeyFunk]

23. They DID campaign for him

You're insinuating, out of thin air, that they didn't do ENOUGH. Prove your assertion.

[Submariner]

15. It can't happen. African Americans will burn down Murika rioting in the streets

and I would help them.

To even consider flipping the vote to Hillary is madness. Anyone want to see the cities start burning? Go ahead and fuck over the voters choice. We fucking dare you.

[MonkeyFunk]

32. oh! The drama!

[MonkeyFunk]

18. Nope, you're wrong

Mondale was far ahead of Hart in pledged delegates - he was just short of the number needed to secure the nomination. The supers put him over.

Hart wasn't leading at all.

[Boz]

26. Wrong again, 1984 no proportional delegates, Hart was ahead in pledged delegates

Going into June 6th 1984 they were essentially tied, with 6 states left.
Hart had a lead in states. There were no proportional delegates.
Mondale had a lead in Popular vote 6,952,912 to 6,504,842

The only reason Mondale and Hart were close in delegates going into June 6th 1984 was because Mondale had a built in headstart in the form of 500 committed "superdelegates" which were new to the process.

Mondale was almost 500 delegates behind Hart in primary voted Pledged delegates.

At the end of the day and close of the primary Hart had more delegates (including Mondales 500 out of 700 supers) Hart missed the Nom total that day by the delegates in New Jersey, which he lost because he had gone fundraising in California the month before, Mondale played it in his campaign to blue collar New jersey that hart was an elitist hobnobbin with california uppy ups and it cost Hart the state.

Hart took California that day keeping Mondale from the Magic number also.

Hart was short 83 delegates from the nominee magic number of 1949 with about 12 superdelegates committed completing his number.

Mondale was short 51 from the nominee magic number of 1949 with over 500 superdelegates committed completing his number.

On June 7th 1984 Mondale gained the commitment of 54 more superdelegates and he was announced as the Democratic Nominee and began running for the general, days later interest in Hart and Jackson fell to the wayside.

Gary Hart had 100s more voted delegates in the primaries because of the non proportional state wins, they were overturnd by the new superdelegates and the Nom was given to Mondale by coronation of the party seat.

The public was not made aware of the super delegates the way they are today.

At the convention first vote the Nomination was ratified with Mondale gaining 2,191 delegates, Gary Hart gained 1,201

Thats where the confusion comes from, Gary Hart had more Pledged Voted delegates at the close of voting June 6th 1984 at the close of the primary. The supers overrode the vote by 550 or non voted votes.

They overturned the public decision, and the result in the general was MONDALE LOST 49 of 50 states.

In 1988 as a senator Mondale sponsored a redo of legislation he presented in 1974 to urge the Congress to stipulate and force the democratic party to gain their nominee by holding 6 regional primaries.

This group Mondale/Ferraro/Ickes and now Clinton and other insiders have been trying to manipulate presidential candidate selection from the hands of the Democrats and place that power in a small cadre of those insiders for over 30 years

Not very democratic now is it, and anyone who would be party to this is not interested in the peoples interest or the democrat party.

[MonkeyFunk]

29. even IF Mondale had 500 unpledged delegates

he'd still be ahead of Hart. Time magazine reported in May of '84 that Mondale was over 600 delegates ahead of Hart.

http://www.time.com/time/magazine/article/0,9171,951089,00.html

The article attributes his lead to wins in big states, not to superdelegates.

[Boz]

33. I stand corrected my numbers were off, but the numbers reported dont add up either

Something is wrong in both the maths, which makes me curious, but it does prove your point that Mondale was in the lead by almost 2 times against Hart and that proves my point wrong about the 500 supers.

I stand confused about the numbers presented by the article. Gary Hart won more states, was only about 200 000 behind in the popular and yet was nearly 550 behind. The burdens of Delegates dont add up either and I am confused why.

I dont raise this in dispute of anything you have posted or your points. It just doesnt add up and I cant find the puzzle piece that explains the numbers IE how many total delegates there were and what the Magic number became as a result. If anyone else can it would eb appreciated.

The OP stands with the caveat Mondale was in the lead when the Super delegates gave him the nomination(he did not gain it by Pledged votes) AND THEN THE DEMS GOT THEIR ASSES HANDED TO THEM 49 STATES TO 1, oh and the addition of DC.

So the superdelgates have never served their purpose in their whole existence.

[MonkeyFunk]

34. Right

But you may not realize that you are in fact arguing for the superdelegates to give the nomination to Clinton. I guess we agree! :D

[Boz]

35. I am,absolutely if they do what they were built to do, which is to stack the deck for the insider

That is absolutely what they were designed to do, to protect the nomination from people political people feel would not be in the best interest of the party insiders and their control spheres.

Just like UNIVERSAL healthcare is what other people think is best for the American people and we should trust they have our best interest in mind.

Do you trust that politicians have our best interest on an individual level in mind when they make all of their decisions, are they selfless human beings that have no self preservation instinct and will give their all to those they represent rather than their personal benefits or feelings?

[madrchsod]

24. we are doomed to everlasting failure

there is no hope left......it`s over

[bluebellbaby]

25. Do you really think the Supers will give it to Hillary...I support Hillary and I don't see that

happening at all...

[Hippo_Tron]

30. Mondale won the pledged delegates, but

If the super delegates were created to prevent the party from heading into a complete disaster when the pledged delegates picked a sure-fire loser, then they failed miserably at their job in 1984. Hart was polling far better against Raygun and if the super delegates had done their supposed job they would've ditched Mondale for Hart.

Basically, the system that was designed to prevent another McGovern produced another McGovern. Both party insiders and party outsiders are capable of choosing 49 state losers.

[BobS]

36. This thread is like reading the prophecy revealed

McCain/Clinton 2008

[anonymous171]

37. In that case however, I believe Hart was forced out by SDs

Anyways, Mondale was facing Ronald fucking Reagan. A more apt comparison would be to the Kennedy-Carter race.