Hillary women.

[searchingforlight]

I had dinner at my son and daughter-in-law's house last night. Let me preface this by stating that I love my daughter-in-law dearly. She is a combination of daughter/friend and an amazing woman. She is spunky enough and spontaneous enough to keep my son fully interested. She is a wonderful mother. She has embraced a close knit family completely and facilitates that every day. Hillary is her choice and she is visceral about it. She sees the writing on the wall and her disappointment is palpable. She said she will not vote this time around. She said it lightly but it had an edge that showed the pain of loss.

I believe that for women like her this choice is a much about being recognized as equal players as it is about a woman president. Hillary was suppose to walk away with this. It was her time, our time. Our two candidates represent a crossroads in american politics. They represent two groups of people that deserve a place at the table. These women see it as a greater win for everyone if women - black/white/brown/yellow/red get the shot. It is not that Obama is not worthy but that he is another man. He came on the scene when these wonderful women had already convinced themselves they were going to take down a big wall that was keeping them and their daughters from an equal chance in the future of this country. They feel he is an interloper and nothing will make this pill easy to swallow.

My daughter-in-law is one of many. The good news is that women are forgiving and when the healing begins they tend to put self-interest behind and act for the greater good. Give them time and embrace their feeling of betrayal.

[saltpoint]

1. Many men supported Sen. Clinton's bid for the White House and are

similarly disappointed, but it seems as if most grown-ups realize that of our original 8 contenders (make it 11 or so if you count the early-on bids by Mark Warner, Evan Bayh, and Tom Vilsack) -- of that bunch -- only 1 can emerge as the nominee.

A process which has been in place for some time.

My first choice is not going to be the nominee -- John Edwards. It doesn't mean I throw a fit and refuse to support the man or woman who IS our nominee.

Our Party is not perfect, but we've made amazing strides from the Kissin' Jim Folsom days of yesteryear. I didn't see a Hispanic, a female, or an Afro American candidate on the GOP ballot in the initial primary and caucus states. How odd, huh.

The Constitution of course is specific about qualifications for high public office. Under its provisions, so long as a candidate meets those minimal and clear criteria, he or she may seek the presidency and therefore is no interloper.

Agree with you that HClinton was supposed to walk away with this. She evidently thought so herself, which is the difficulty in public life. She was outflanked in several respects. Iowa's build-up was extraordinary. She spent lavishly. She had already negotiated Vilsack and Bayh out of the race. Warner was persuaded to seek the long-GOP-held Senate seat in Virginia. She thought she could shovel Obama and Edwards out, claim victory in Des Moines with the endorsement of the REGISTER, and sail to the nomination under blue skies and favorable press winds.

Didn't happen. Of her own accord Mrs. Clinton lost a commanding lead and a boatload of money, all the while driving her own negatives -- already significant -- way up. Her public addresses were idea-thin. Her surrogates, no matter what you think of them personally, dabbled in race-baiting, undermining the most visible constituency The Clintons held in the 90s and one on which they needed to rely for any Hillary bid. I've watched political campaigns since the 60s. Hers is the worst I've ever seen by a Democrat.

Bob Smith's is the worst by a Republican. Bob Dole's is second.

Your daughter-in-law sounds like a great person. IMO, she needs to reconsider her refusal to vote for the ticket.

[peace13]

13. My guess is that she will come around in time.

My dear friend who is in her sixties was all the way for Hill. She called me after the Bosnia event and she was totally done in. In time your DIL will heal and realize that she needs to continue to make this world better, for the sake of her children. Peace, Kim

[saltpoint]

16. The sniper fire incident was not a huge plus for the HClinton effort.

Instead of bolstering her international creds it reinforced their absence in her resume.

A role can be found for Hillary Clinton to make the world better, but I really don't feel she has earned a place in Obama's Cabinet.

[kenny blankenship]

47. So true: the bullet not fired often proves the unkindest cut of all

Unfortunately there are people for whom telling the truth feels like a lost opportunity, a missed chance to make up something even better than the truth.

[boobooday]

2. I know several women like this

Including my mother. My parents are in Indiana. Dad voted for Obama, and Mom for Hillary.

I hope that Obama chooses a woman for his VP candidate. He really needs to reach out, because the disappointment is real, and damnit, why can't we just break all this new ground at once. We've all been waiting for so long.

I really hope to see a woman president in my lifetime. I hope that I do. But I have reasons for choosing Obama over Clinton that relate to my feelings about war, and how as a woman I feel that to be pro-war is always to be anti-woman. I vowed never to vote for anyone who supported the war (although I would have swallowed that had she won the nomination) and so I supported Kucinich, and now Obama.

For all my sisters, I say we must keep fighting for our rights.

:grouphug:

A strong first lady would be a refreshing change, a female VP would make it even better, as would an appointment for Hillary that recognizes her contributions (SCOTUS?).

[Rene]

3. If it comes to it...we're writing Hillary in.

you and your daughter-in-law and other thoughtful voters should realy see www.attacktimeline.com to see how the obama sheeple ran their sleazy campaign for all these months and months.....very karl-rovian like and nsty from the gitgo.

Fight On Hillary, Take it to the Convention floor.
This guy is a packaged, manufactured product by kingmakers.....little to very-thin resume. No decision maker, hence 120 PRESENT votes...does not fulfill his ONLY committee chairmanship sincd 2007---has not held one meeting(oversight of NATO and thus Afghanistan)

I'll not vote for the man..I don't want either he or mccain appointing justices.

I hope theres a massive campaign to do a Hillary write-in....by absentee ballott, so they MUST be opened and counted.

[saltpoint]

4. If Hillary Clinton were to sanction a "Write In For Hillary" effort she would

be regarded as a pariah in all future Democratic doings.

And properly so.

[MindMatter]

8. Another one for my ignore list.

[peace13]

14. Good luck Rene, I have one word for you....

Bosnia. Please help me wrap my little pea brain around that one.

[mkultra]

17. and to bring you back to reality, try this

http://hillaryattacks.barackobama.com/

Its a annotated time line of Hillary's "Go negative early" strategy.


Try comparing the two and youll see that she directly attacks him earlier and more seriously.

[dbmk]

23. You people are dangerous

Coming from a european you might that that with a grain of salt or two. But you make me feel ill at the thought of someone being willing to risk the needed powershift, in order to make it clear that you indeed took your ball and went home. Urgh!

Thankfully, I am pretty sure people like you are in a very small minority of all Hillary supporters.

[slinkerwink]

40. Think about the future of your children. Writing in Hillary is a vote taken away

from the election of the Democratic nominee that we need to put more judges on the Supreme Court, restore habeas corpus, pass health care, and environmental protections to fight back against global warming.

[Name removed]

50. Deleted sub-thread

Sub-thread removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Shakespeare]

57. That is a despicable post.

You are so blinded by your hatred of Obama that you'd risk your own good health (by working against our nominee, you work against Roe, reproductive issues, etc.). Pathetic.

[Beacool]

58. Hear, hear!!!!!!!!!!

:thumbsup:

[lumberjack_jeff]

63. That is a mistake. n/t

[roguevalley]

66. too bad that the one who follows the rules and wins by the will of

the people is excoriated by people who gave their loyalty to an idea not the country. i don't truly care what anyone does. if you don't vote, you have only your conscience and the outcome. I believe he will win without the small number of sore losers that feel more loyalty to an idea and a gender than to the future of this country. most will get over it as we all did when our dearly loved candidates (Gore, Clark, Edwards) fell by the way side. those that don't, you are pathetic and you need to examine your conscience. Vote for the country.

[seaglass]

5. Is that 2nd paragraph what you believe or what you DIL said?

Just wanting to keep things honest here - too many people have been projecting what they "believe" women who support Hillary feel.

[searchingforlight]

10. I started the second paragraph with "I believe". Maybe you missed that.

I expressed an opinion but I do not live in a bubble and speak with other women all the time. I have lived the women's movement so I feel I have some experience with the feelings therein.

I was a Hillary supporter but at a certain point I felt Obama would be better for the country. My post only reflects my opinion and a desire to acknowledge the right for my DIL and others to heal.

[seaglass]

46. Yes, I did notice that you said I believe but I didn't know if it

was because of what your DIL said or because that's how you interpreted her feelings.

[sufrommich]

6. I hope your daughter in law decides

to vote for the nominee.You put the discouragement many of us feel beautifully,disregard the ugliness you're bound to get for voicing it.

[JohnnyLib2]

18. Allow me to second this. The honest portrayal of a different

opinion is refreshing to see. Very.

[MindMatter]

7. Get over it. Obama doesn't represent black people. Hillary doesn't represent women.

If they did, then I wouldn't consider voting for either one.

They were both running to President for all Americans.

[peace13]

Exactly. Look at *!

He appeared to have it all. Money, education, looks, good ol' boy humor. To the outsider he looks to be the perfect candidate. As it turned out he was a lying, thieving, murdering war monger who *issed on the Constitution and the American People. I think that rational people will listen to the message of the candidate before voting this time.

[Darth_Kitten]

27. You read the OP and saw nothing huh?

:eyes:

Wish people could read better.

[papapi]

73. Thank you!!!

...and if Hillary is the best they can do, tough.

[saltpoint]

9. "Give them time and embrace their feeling of betrayal."

What is the source of this "betrayal" ?

I'm not getting "betrayal" in the 2007-08 primary, unless you want to grocery-list the betrayal of truth by FOX News.

Who betrayed whom or what?

[olkaz]

11. "The good news is that women are forgiving..."

Now THAT is a rosy appraisal if I have ever heard one.

[LizW]

12. You get it.

kicked and rec'd.

[Evergreen Emerald]

15. "Hillary was suppose to walk away with this. It was her time, our time..."

I have never heard a Clinton supporter suggest that Clinton was "supposed to walk away with this." The only people who said it were the media, to create something to tear-down.

It is a false argument.

[JohnnyLib2]

19. For sure.

[peace13]

22. Did you hear many of Big Bill's stump speeches?

If you did then I would say that your argument is the false one!

[Evergreen Emerald]

37. they were no different than Obama's "when I am president" please

stop vilifying her for the same things Obama did.

[peace13]

48. Really, I know some here are all about kissing and making up.

I am pretty sure that you do not have the concept down. Good luck in the future. I, myself have had to change candidates in this election. It is not easy but I will say that no one was there to wipe my behind for me. You may want to suck it up sometime soon and join the real world.

[NashVegas]

33. Thank You. I Was Just About to Post

"Hillary is inevitable" is like "Gore invented the internet."

Especially galling, here, because of the "Barack Obama is our nominee, now let's unite and get behind him" campaign that started on the evening of January 3.

[eridani]

69. So, Clinton's statement that it would be over by Feb 5th meant what, exactly? n/t

[democrattotheend]

41. I've heard Clinton supporters say it

Here and in real life. There are plenty of Clinton supporters who feel it was her turn and resent Obama for running. They think he is young and should have "waited his turn", whatever that means.

[mrreowwr_kittty]

61. I've heard it too. Many times.

What I wonder is, what did they expect the GOP to do if she got the nom? Also step aside because it was her turn? Not likely. "I'm entitled!" is not exactly a compelling campaign strategy.

[NashVegas]

67. I Saw Where Someone Wrote

That it was kind of like, "you've been busting your butt for years to go after a certain promotion in your company. In comes the new guy, he's young, he's attractive, everyone thinks he's the coolest thing since icewater - and he wants that desk you've worked 15 years to even be considered for."

While the situation wasn't exactly the same, it was not entirely unlike watching that unfold. For every woman who did work her way into that desk, there are 20 more who were equally or more qualified but got passed over for the guy the office politicos would rather hang out with.

[democrattotheend]

72. I'm working on a blog post about that analogy

Because I think that sums up how a lot of women feel. The thing is, what they fail to consider is that the younger man here may have less experience, but he had done the better job on the campaign trail. He has earned the promotion.

[Alexander]

60. Hillary Clinton: "It'll be over by February 5th"

Apparently your idol disagrees with you.

[susankh4]

20. "Hillary Women"

We just love to be patronized.

[leftofcool]

26. What about the thousands of Hillary men?

I guess they don't really count

[susankh4]

28. Lucky for them

they are not being patronized by the O.P. here.

[leftofcool]

31. Yep

They are assuming this is all about Hillary and feminists. They just don't get it

[mkultra]

21. i have great sympathy for those who have invested so much

in HRC and the possibilities that she represents. I realize that technically , the primary season isnt over but, from my point of view its really done.

I think that those who feel that a Hillary lose is a lose for barrier breaking are just selfishly voting their own identity. Having a black man as president is a major event. Both are historic in nature and shoudl be seen as such. Im sure that doest ease the pain of the lose.

[Berry Cool]

24. I guess what I want to know is,

what makes women like your daughter-in-law identify with Hillary so much? Are they married women who have derived a large amount of their status in life and their professional achievement from the advantage of being married to the men they married, as she has? And if so, how do they think Hillary's becoming president would recognize women as equal players? Or is it more about women like themselves being recognized as equal players (women married to men who derived a certain status from their marriages but have worked to build a career of their own standing on the shoulders of their husbands)?

I guess as a single woman I've never felt that Hillary was particularly representative of me or of women in general. A large part of her adult life has revolved around her husband and his career and helping to advance him. For many years, she stood beside him as the adoring wife, and her career came second. When he publicly humiliated her with women and rumors of other women, she gamely stood by his side. Only after he had had his turn at the top of his chosen career did she begin actively seeking to follow in his footsteps, using the prominence she had gained from being his wife to her advantage and claiming his years of experience as her own. She has not earned everything she has because of him, but she owes a large amount of what she is today to being his wife.

If you're a single woman, you just can't relate to that. You've spent your whole life working for yourself and getting yourself ahead with no help. You've never stepped back and aside and done the standing-by and smiling and dinner-party hosting and child-raising that married women do to help hubby get ahead. And unless you come from wealth, no one has ever handed you anything. You've had to earn it all yourself, which only makes you all the more keenly aware of how much easier it is for a woman with a prominent husband to make herself known.

Maybe many women relate to her because they know what it's like to be the woman behind the man and spend a certain number of years of your life subsuming your ego in that role, on the assumption that in the future, the roles will be reversed and you will be the one in front. Now is supposed to be the time for Hillary to be the one in front, and it's not going to happen, and they feel cheated.

Well, maybe they felt that it was her time and that somehow she represented their time and their "turn." But while spouses may agree to "take turns," politics doesn't recognize any such arrangement. Bill and Hillary's marriage may well have had a private agreement of "I'll run for president, then you run for president," but neither was guaranteed the win. Bill got the win, twice. Now Hillary is up the first time, and she's not making it. But that's not the fault of an "interloper"; that's politics. To win, you have to beat those who choose to run against you. Little girls take turns when everyone wants to ride on the swing, because that's what we've been socialized to do, rather than fight for the privilege. But in politics, there is no "turn taking"; no one steps back politely and lets you have something so you can pass it on to them next. You have to win it; you have to take it.

I believe that if women want to take down a big wall that is keeping us from an equal chance in the future of this country, the first thing we need to do is re-socialize ourselves to realize that there are some situations in which we have to get our heads out of the idea that it is "our turn" and realize that no one will hand us anything and that if we want it, we must win it. We also have to stop putting men first--boyfriends, husbands, etc., and stepping aside to "let" them experience success first so we can "go next." That way, we will feel a lot less bitter when the men in our lives finally agree that it's "our time" and we step out into the world to get what we feel we deserve, only to lose it to someone else who didn't look at us and say "Hey, you've been waiting a long time for this, and I've been here only a short while. You go first."

[Darth_Kitten]

25. Single women.....

can really relate to a woman being slammed and degraded like Hillary as. Let's face it, she's been "hated" before people even thought they knew anything about her. I remember her coming onto the scene in 1992, and I thought to myself, what has she done to make people hate her so much?

Maybe they are tired of the smug, condescending attitutes of those who slam their decision to vote for Hillary, the degrading treatment of women in the media, on the internet, etc.

I have and NEVER put a man first, they have done little or next to little for me my entire life. THAT's why I'm so pissed off when some smug misogynist just out of high school still living with his Mommy and Daddy thinks any woman over 30 deserves to be derided and dismissed.

[democrattotheend]

39. What about the women who have been guilt-tripped for not voting for Hillary?

Is that any better than those who criticize you for voting for her?

I agree that a lot of the hatred toward her is irrational, btw. I am an Obama supporter and sometimes she makes me mad but I don't hate her, and I have been disappointed by the degree of hatred some Democrats here and elsewhere have shown towards her.

[Darth_Kitten]

42. I am not familiar with all this supposed guilt-tripping going on......

maybe it is, but the misogyny out there is far, far, FAR worse. I've never seen anything like it.

If you vote for Obama because you believe in him, all the power to you.....but the delirious hatred too many people have for Hillary is off-putting. :(

[democrattotheend]

45. I've had women try to make me feel guilty

Saying I'm failing to stand up for women or stand up to sexism by not voting for her.

I do think women have the obligation to stand up and call out sexism against her in the media and online and I have tried to do that here. I don't think that I owe her my vote though.

I agree with you that there is way too much irrational hatred against Hillary, although I admit that was one of the reasons I decided not to support her in the beginning. I figured Republicans are pretty disspirited this year and not thrilled about McCain but voting against Hillary would motivate them to come out. But I have always been appalled at how much hatred there is toward her. She makes me mad sometimes, but some of the stuff that gets said about her is sickening.

[Riktor]

68. I've never been to Wyoming, that doesn't mean it doesn't exist.

It is similarly illogical to declare misogyny as the root cause of the low-regard with which Hillary Clinton is held by a sizable contingent of Democrats.

For example, I dislike Hillary because she is just another centrist posing as a liberal. She is a prominent member of the Democratic Leadership Council, which seeks to generate wider appeal for the Democratic party by shifting the party's focus from liberalism to centrism. The DLC receives funding from notoriously illiberal sources, such as the Bradley Foundation, military contractors, Fortune 500 companies, etc.

It is safe to assume that there are at least a few other people out there who see a big difference between what Hillary says she'll do versus what Hillary actually does, and that they are disinclined to support her as well. It isn't that we don't want a woman in office, it is that we'd rather not have Hillary in office. Personally, I'm waiting for the day Barbara Boxer decides she wants to run for president.

Before you go running into a diatribe on Obama, I want to make it perfectly clear I harbor no love for the man. He's a politician after all, and it is unlikely he will change this country in any dramatic manner whatsoever. However, I do see him as the lesser of two evils. Hillary has proven time and time again that her morals are negotiable when her status is on the line, while Obama merely hasn't been offered that opportunity yet.

So, in conclusion, both sides of this asinine and childish debate are completely delusional.

[Riktor]

65. This whole argument is ludicrous

Here we have two camps doing battle to decide who is lower on the social totem pole: white women or black men.

[leftofcool]

29. Your second paragraph is the RW talking point

This has been said by Rove, Hannity, etal...........Now, we have Dems saying the same thing.

[sufrommich]

34. The whole post is a right wing talking point,

although I would call it classic Phyllis Schlafly.

[dana_b]

43. I agree

as a single woman raising a kid, I can relate totally. RW talking point?? whatever, I don't see it. The third paragraph is the one that gets me. Most of us have never felt like we were owed anything but that is the sense that I (and apparently some others) get from the Clinton campaign.

[Withywindle]

75. I wish I could rec this post!

:thumbsup:

I respect Hillary Clinton for the work she's done, and she really has broken down barriers and I'm thrilled about that. I think there will be many more serious female Presidential contenders in the years to come, and eventually, one will win.

But she's also in a position of privilege I can't begin to imagine--married to a two-term President; she came into this race with HUGE backing--and I don't feel I owe her my vote either.

Obama just did a better job of persuading me.

[suston96]

30. Try this.......

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=132&topic_id=6016064&mesg_id=6016551

[DU GrovelBot]

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This week is our second quarter 2008 fund drive. Democratic Underground is
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[saltpoint]

35. Who said anything about macaroni and cheese?

[dailykoff]

36. A sister who's a Hillarista won't even talk about it any more.

I didn't know she was backing Hillary until Obama's book came up at Christmas dinner and she started rattling off the talking points like the madrassa and how important the Supreme Court was. I made a crack about Hillary's demographic and she got upset so I dropped it and apologized. I was kind of disappointed she'd go for Hillary but she's single, early forties, and self-supporting, so she fits the profile.

Well I haven't talked to her about it since, but another sister who was backing Edwards talks to her more and says she's taken it pretty hard and now won't even discuss it.

I can only imagine the propaganda she's been hit with because there is nothing I can see in Hillary's past or present performance that makes her remotely appealing as a candidate for ANY office.

:shrug:

[Beacool]

59. Then you are blind.

I on the other hand, can't understand how anyone can fall for the snake oil salesman and his fake pitch.

:shrug:

[applegrove]

38. A few days ago, once Bush had made his appeasment speech, the

DU was together denouncing his antics. It reminded me of the DU of old. Where we weren't squabbling. And it was heartwarming and exciting to find the DU thus. I'm a Hillary supporter and I felt the need to defend Obama too.

It will be a matter of less than a week for Clinton supporters to jump on the Obama bandwagon. We all hate the GOP so much that once the real GE starts - we shall overcome our reservations and sign up. I really miss DU speaking with one voice re: the GOP. We all do.

[WillYourVoteBCounted]

44. Your daughter-in-law would rather our country go down the toilet

what a shame. I can't imagine a young woman being that selfish.

The blood of our troops and the innocents in Iraq is on your daughter-in-law's hands.

Oh, and this says alot about her preferred candidate - alot of bad things.

A good democrat would never want their supporters to enable a republican.

[rodeodance]

49. oh for Ch** sake . Where do you get off talking of betrayal!!

.......My daughter-in-law is one of many. The good news is that women are forgiving and when the healing begins they tend to put self-interest behind and act for the greater good. Give them time and embrace their feeling of betrayal.

[EFerrari]

51. . . .

:hug:

[YDogg]

52. Supreme Court.

[femrap]

62. Johnny Bob Taliban and I-Lie-too...

The dems let them on the court.

I'm starting to think it's time for the young ones to fight for Roe, etc. They've never had to make a fist.

[iamthebandfanman]

53. my mom:'im voting for her because shes a woman"

"its something ive dreamed about since i was a little girl" (she was born in the 51)

i understand this plite, i really do... what i dont understand is how this isnt considered sexism as well?
i mean, favoring someone bacause of sex or colour is just flat out wrong.

my grandmother voted(absentee) for hillary because 'they will walk all over us if hes elected' by 'they' she meant black people.

now, i dont like to think my family is completely ignorant ... but if thats any sign of the way people base their votes on (especially in states like mine) ... i think we know why the vote counts are the way they are in states like mine.

[TexasObserver]

54. I agree that the sense of entitlement for Hillary by her supporters is a real problem.

People who think white women have had it worse than black men are simply not being rational or honest. This nastiness by many of her women supporters towards Obama is sexism, pure and simple.

[1776Forever]

55. OK you had me 'till "their feeling of betrayal." HRC only has herself & her staff to blame for this.

And even if they don't "get over it" I hope they will give Obama a chance to win them over with his detailed programs for children and families. If they will just listen and/or read about what he has proposed and not be biased about what they may have read on DU or in the MSM they will find that Obama is a very strong advocate of the very things women are longing for, including equal pay!!!!

And how in the H can they think McCain would be better for their children and grandchildren's future????
:shrug:

[jsmirman]

56. But that wouldn't be putting self-interest behind! It would be putting self-interest squarely

front and center. That is what is so maddening about this all.

[dorktv]

64. The good news is that women are forgiving and when the healing begins they tend to put self-interest

QFT.

My biggest problem with the Senator Obama supporters (and the reason why I defend the lady and her people) is that they are being told...sometimes gently, sometimes condensendingly, and often with threats to fall in.

It is the stages of grief and they deserve a chance to get through it.

[rosesaylavee]

70. Women who support HRC, need to understand its not about them

It's not about getting a woman in the WH.

It's not about women having a seat at the table.

It's about getting our country back on track and getting our constition back in place.

If the HRC supporters cling to this idea that that is what their fight was really about - we will lose the GE.

If women, like your daughter-in-law, sit this out, they run the chance of losing ROE and lots of other legal battles for the next 20-30 years. McCain is not the same as Bush. He is worse. His synapses actually work half the time. His stance on every issue will send this country reeling.

I understand the disappointment. All of us here have lost hope when our candidate has lost. We all went thru 2000, 2002, 2004 together. I personally took the losses very personally and remember them as very dark times for me.

Hopefully, you will be able to convince her that her vote is needed if not her active support.

[Barack_America]

71. Equal players still need a good game plan.

She didn't and that's why she loss.

[Jed Dilligan]

74. The two I knew have already turned.

So, my hope is that many more will. One of them was my boss, exactly the sort of middle aged professional woman (and former elected official) you would expect to be a strong Hillary supporter. I think she looked at it very objectively and decided Obama was running a better campaign. The other was a friend whom I believe supported her "viscerally" at first for the reasons you list then got fed up with her after sniper fire, etc. (She also started taking meds for depression, which might have made her more realistic or into a male-dominated zombie, depending on your point of view.)

[amelia]

76. I'm writing in Hillary Clinton's name in Nov. if it isn't on the ballot. Won't change my mind ever!