Nothing changed last night...

[MonkeyFunk]

so everything changed.

Clinton needed to change the whole direction of the race - and she had a chance to do that. There's nothing wrong with her staying in and trying to do that. She's in it to win it, as is Obama.

But last night didn't change anything, so she didn't succeed. I imagine she'll be dropping out this week. And that's the right time - not a month ago, not three months ago, as many of you have demanded.

She fought hard and I still love her, I still respect her, I hope to see her on the national scene for a long time to come.

Congratulations, Senator Obama.

[krawhitham]

1. YES she should have quit three months ago

She could not win then
She can not win now
All she did was hurt the GE chances

[Umbram]

5. Lay off. (nt)

[subsuelo]

9. Why? It's true (nt)

[nxylas]

37. But she didn't, so it's irrelevant

What's done is done.

[ProSense]

16. From the OP: "There's nothing wrong with her staying in and trying to do that. "

Trying to do what? According to the OP: "change the whole direction of the race"

It's over.

[Umbram]

25. I support Obama, and even I'm not going to disagree with that statement.

Is it best for the party, maybe not - but she has every damn right to stay in.

I'm not going to hold Clinton to a different standard than I do other candidates, and I wish D.K. was still in this race.

I think if you reread the OP, and consider it beyond a sentence or two, there's no reason to be smearing shit in the OPers face.

[ProSense]

36. "Is it best for the party, maybe not - but she has every damn right to stay in."

Right, Clinton before party. BS!

[Umbram]

47. Perhaps the nuances of the word 'right' confuse you.

It's a tricky word...spend some time with it:

http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/right

[ProSense]

55. "Is it best for the party, maybe not..." Nothing confusing there. n/t

[Umbram]

56. Good work, now try and comprehend the WHOLE sentence, all at once. (nt)

[ProSense]

57. Face it, your comment is Hillary's logic: She can't win, but has every right to continue,

even as you admit it may not be good for the party.

Q: Does her right to continue trump the damaging the party?

[Umbram]

60. Logic...

"Does her right to continue trump...damaging the
party?"

Every candidate has the RIGHT to be heard and run their race
until the race is over.  I have no problem with saying that
that fundamental democratic RIGHT "trump[s]"
whatever damage it causes a particular party.

Is it RIGHT that she does so, no. 

[ProSense]

62. Logic summary: Hillary comes first. "Is it RIGHT that she does...no."

That's the problem isn't it?

If Hillary is supposed to be a party leader, she isn't behaving like one.

I see a lot of people calling for unity, how can the party unite if Hillary is still "fighing on"?

Supporters will continue to take sides, that's the reality.

This isn't a race she can win, but she has the right to continue. The question is: at what cost?

[Umbram]

64. Context.

As an Obama supporter, it's pretty damn easy for me to say that she should drop out and put the party first.

The thing is, we've been calling for her to drop out since Super Tuesday. She's fought a good campaign since then and made some inroads. After last night, I think even most Clinton supporters agree that the writing is on the wall.

But, I don't agree with the premise that it's wrongful for a candidate of a political party to continue their race merely because it might incidentally be harmful to the party. If Lieberman were still in the party and looked like he was going to get the nom, I would want progressives in that race causing hell all the way up to the nomination.

If Clinton supporters think that she brings something to the table that Obama doesn't and it's worth fighting for, so fucking be it. You and I aren't objective. If you can't imagine a situation where you would want someone to keep fighting the likely nominee up till the better end even if they were likely to lose, then we simply have different core principles.

[ProSense]

67. Well, we completely disagree.

I don't agree with the premise that it's wrongful for a candidate of a political party to continue their race merely because it might incidentally be harmful to the party.

If she damages the party and knee caps the nominee (giving the GOP more angles to attack Obama), she will prove that she only cares about herself. That may significantly jeopardize her political career.

She's fought a good campaign since then and made some inroads.

Again, I completely disagree.

[Umbram]

69. Fair enough.

I think we can both rest on our arguments.

Peace.

[Frances]

22. If Hillary had quit 3 months ago,

the Wright thing would not have come up until October. Much better that it came up in April.

Also, if she had quit 3 months ago, Obama would not have had the impressive victory in North Carolina, nor the near win, which amounted to victory politically, in Indiana.

Many, many more people registered to vote in the primaries and will thus be eligible to vote for Obama in November because of the Obama-Hillary rivalry.

Obama is stronger, not weaker, for winning the delegates he has in a hard fought battle IMO.

Winning the battle with Hillary, whom everyone considers tough as nails, at the ballot box will work in Obama's favor in November.

[rocktivity]

28. If there hadn't be a Rev. Wright

the job of being Obama's surrogate angry scary radical black man would have been outsourced to someone else.

:headbang:
rocknation

[Frances]

33. Absolutely true

The race card would have been played no matter what.

Much better that it was played over and over by the MSM in April when the opponent was another Dem rather than in October when the opponent will be McCain.

[izquierdista]

46. I suspect that in October

All the Republicans will have left is to run endless clips of old 'Tarzan' movies with hordes of "restless natives" to whip up fear in their base.

[Brundle_Fly]

35. true if anything

she vetted Obama, and cleared up lots of the murk.

[yardwork]

50. I agree. I think that this whole thing has been a net gain for the Democrats.

It's really absurd to get mad at a politician for doing what politicians do - trying to win.

[rocktivity]

24. By the second Super Tuesday, she was so far behind

she needed to win ALL of the remaining contests with at least 60% of the vote to catch Obama. Now she'll have to win them with 86% of the vote.

:headbang:
rocknation

[Spirochete]

80. Naw, I don't think so.

She might have hurt herself a little, but that's about it. On the other hand - look at all the brand new voters the alley fight between these two candidates has attracted so far. The turnout in the GE looks like it is going to be monstrous. McThusaleh is so going down in November.

[AllentownJake]

2. Thank you

Ignore those of us who are too imature to be gracious in Victory.

[Umbram]

3. Congrats to both Obama and Clinton

For getting this party riled up and getting voters to turn out in record numbers.

I hope all the passion that's gone in to this primary can go into the GE.

[ProSense]

4. "Frankly, whoever on her staff that approved that button should have been fired."

Yes to Unity. But Let's Not Go Overboard.

[Name removed]

6. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[MonkeyFunk]

15. No need to be obnoxious

Nothing's changed regarding my feelings about both candidates.

[BlooInBloo]

7. Yup. The fight's on until one side gives up. Keep beating her.

[stray cat]

And if no one gives up does it go on past the general election?

[Boz]

8. Do you think she would go for governor?

[Tatiana]

10. Let's get ready to take back this country.

:hug:

[Occam Bandage]

11. Actually? I don't think she should drop out. Seriously.

She is *going* to win WV and KY. Obama is *going* to win OR. And you know what? It looks really bad to lose two primaries in one day to a candidate who isn't even running.

I want to see her run positive; last night was a great opportunity to start changing the tone, and she took it, to her great credit. I want to see her keep pushing her ideas (though we could do without that awful gas-tax holiday). I want to see her stay in through the next round. And then I would like to see her concede the nomination gracefully.

I'd like to see her as VP, but I don't know that she'd accept that. Either way, though, I'm just glad that the end is in sight.

[MonkeyFunk]

18. I'd like to see her as VP

because I think that's the strongest ticket, not because I think the job is any great shakes for her.

But despite what Obama fans here think, she IS the best choice to unify the party and beat McCain.

[Occam Bandage]

29. Agreed. Not just to unify--to expand. She's proven that she can draw on independent groups

that Obama cannot. She adds some gravitas to the ticket, too. Plus, I think most of her negatives are nullified in the VP slot, so I'm not concerned she'd drag it down at all.

[Usrename]

40. She would make a fine VP, but there is a huge problem.

She could not govern if anything happened to Obama, considering history and everything. Someone a lot more trustworthy is needed.

[MonkeyFunk]

41. I don't understand

what history would prevent her from governing?

[Occam Bandage]

44. I think she'd do fine. She's voted with the Democratic party 97% of the time.

If you can't trust a party-line Democrat, then who can you trust?

[Colobo]

12. Thanks Monkey. It's time for unity.

[RiverStone]

49. I'll echo that --- time to heal, unite, and focus on McSame.

[NeedleCast]

13. I Don't Think She'll Drop Out

I say this as an Obama supporter who has not been calling on her to drop out. She has a right to run. As a Democrat, I don't know if it's hurting our chances in the GE or not. I don't have a crystal ball and unlike some supporters on both sides, I don't claim to be able to predict the future.

I think after Hillary failed to get what she needed out of TX and OH that it was pretty much a done deal and had I been in her place that's when I would have hung up my saddle.

It's been hard for me to say nice things about Hillary during the primaries because I think she has run a pretty brutal attack campaign. It's politics though and I understand how it works. I'll be happy for her to return to New York as a senator, because although she's appeared to run to the right in this campaign, I think she's still a Democrat.

[lojasmo]

14. I think she'll stay in for a while

As long as she doesn't go further in debt, and stays positive, I think that's fine.

Hell hath frozen over.

[ChairmanAgnostic]

17. ah, at last. the non-funky monkey I've loved and missed.

nice words, well said.

[Phillycat]

19. Agree, I posted a similar thread last night.

It's over; all we can do it look forward to November. I'm not thrilled about it, but I will willingly support our nominee. But man, I would have loved to vote for Senator Clinton as our first female president.

[JVS]

20. I agree with your analysis with one caveat

If she wants to continue, she should begin to consider what kind of tactics are not "scorched earth" and what aren't.

[MonkeyFunk]

38. I think you

need to understand the term more than she does. There was nothing "scorched earth" about this campaign. It was pretty mild, all things considered.

[JVS]

42. Look, I doubt you want to hear this, but I'm going to lay it out.

HRC surrogates have recently been stressing that white voters will not support Obama. If Clinton tries to exploit racial division and polarization, this is a scorched earth tactic. The reason is that when she is gone, and it's pretty clear that she's going to be gone soon, a racially polarized Democratic Party is not going to be able to fight John McCain as well as one where this division has not been played on.

[MonkeyFunk]

43. well

I shouldn't expect you to change your ways now. I congratulated Obama. That's what you're getting from me today, so take it or leave it.

[JVS]

45. I take it, but don't cry foul when people here criticize, denounce, or bash HRC if she pisses on...

that electrified rail. It's bad business.

[still_one]

21. That is quite nice of you to observe, Unofrtunately I don't think it will happen /nt

[lisa58]

23. You're right...

...This morning Pat Buchanan said, "there's nothing wrong with fighting if you still have a chance to win, but fighting when you don't will only hurt the party"

He was right and you are right.

I'm sorry, I know (we all know) how it feels when your candidate loses.

[goclark]

26. Now that is classy

[Maven]

27. I agree with your analysis of the situation AND the timing.

K/R

[LSK]

30. Thank you n/t

[hokies4ever]

31. The biggest change: MSM

The media has completely abandoned Hillary's campaign. That's been the biggest change.

[rucky]

32. Next week...

She'll go out fighting, and she'll go out with class. In another week after that, Dems will have their shit together again (as much as Dems can).

[NC_Nurse]

34. Thanks for that, MonkeyFunk. I appreciate how hard it is when your

candidate is losing. I hope we can rise above our differences and beat the Repubs this year. :-)

[Pavlovs DiOgie]

39. Monkey speaks!

I agree with your assesment. I dont think She is going to heed your advice though.

[Orsino]

48. The competition was just too strong for her to pull off the miracle she needed.

That's not meant to diminish her campaign's great achievement in marshaling and maintaining enormous (and historic) support. I think that the VP slot is hers if she wants it.

Congratulations to Clinton and her supporters.

[yardwork]

51. This is a very thoughtful post - I appreciate it!

[Hepburn]

52. Thanks for the congrats to Sen Obama...

...I hope that all of us can again unite and go after the real problem in the race for the WH ~~ John McCain.

Threads like this are a good start...and I hope things settle down and Clinton and Obama supporters can again be Democrats without the need to ID who anyone supported in this primary season. Sen Clinton fought hard to get what she wanted...and it has to be a huge disappointment to her supporters that she is not the person in first place.

:hi:

[MonkeyFunk]

61. It will be difficult for a lot of Clinton supporters here

to unite with you guys. You have been in the forefront of the effort not to defeat Clinton, but to destroy her. To treat her supporters as mental deficients and moral degenerates. For all the talk of dividing the party, you guys have to look at your own behavior.

I've been an ardent Clinton supporter, but I have not once started a thread trashing Obama. I never started a thread trashing ANY candidate. I have said repeatedly that I like Obama and that he'd make a fine candidate and a fine president, but you still treated my side like a scourge on the party.

The hardest thing to accept is not Clinton's loss, but that you guys will be rewarded for your behavior. That really hurts.

[Phillycat]

63. "The hardest thing to accept is not Clinton's loss, but that you guys will be rewarded for your

behavior." A-MOTHERFUCKING-MEN.

[Umbram]

66. Just make sure you are comparing the apples to apples

and the oranges to oranges.

Compare the best of Clinton's supporters to the best of Obama's. Compare the worst as well.

I do it all the time - pick the worst example of the side I don't like and hold it up to the best example of the side I do.

I'm CERTAINLY not one of the better ones, but I'm sure you know who they are.

Team Obama here on DU:P has three times the cretins, of which I am probably one, but some good folk too.

You've been admirable and clever through these whole primaries. I look forward to eventually pointing our snark-cannons at the same targets.

[MonkeyFunk]

71. Oh, there have certainly been plenty of pro-Clinton assholes

most of them have been banned.

But I honestly haven't seen much of an attempt to personally destroy Obama and his family. I've seen many here demand that the Clintons be thrown out of the party, that she be kicked out of the Senate, etc. etc. It goes far beyond just opposing her - it's about trying to destroy her. I think that behavior is far more damaging to the party than Clinton running against Obama.

[Umbram]

74. Could be.

There's a lot of anger on both sides - and a lot of it justifiable. Here's to hoping things don't get worse before they get better.

Take care.

[Hepburn]

78. Ummmmmmmm.....

...you're welcome? :shrug:

I guess trying to be nice and see if we could unite and work against McCain is not what you want.

Sorry you feel that way.

[Turn CO Blue]

53. You're a good egg, MonkeyFunk.

I think she should be VP too, and with Edwards as AG, then the B*sh Administration would be quaking in their shoes...

[DerekJ]

54. Thanks .. K & R for a good post.

[Gore1FL]

58. Good post MonkeyFunk

[quakerboy]

59. You are right

You know, the hype and the polls really had me worried before last night. I can admit it, if she had unexpectedly swept last night, it would have really done a number on Obama confidence. Last night was a needed win for us, not numerically, but morally.

[LVjinx]

65. I agree... If she doesn't drop out, she should change her focus to driving for unity

THat's what we need now. Her continued presence will help ensure continued big turnout in coming states. If she does drop out, and turnout drops, that is a worrying sign. I think she needs to stay in, while publicly acknowledging Obama is the likely nominee, to keep people engaged in the process... And to start reconciliation. I hope that's the route she will take.

[Thrill]

68. The problem is. She can't win. The math isn't there.

But if she stays in oh well. The Repukes are just going to steal it in November anyway

[PassingFair]

70. Wow.

That is saying A LOT!

I am gob-smacked, truly.

I hope she doesn't disappoint you by continuing
in the face of certain defeat, but I have no
such belief in her dropping out this week. I
think her jaws are locked onto the bone.

I HOPE you are right, and I hope
we have no hard feelings in
this, for Mrs. G's sake....

She loves you, so I knew you couldn't
be ALL bad.

:hug:

[MonkeyFunk]

72. She may stay in for the last few contests

at least ones she's expected to win.

[faithfulcitizen]

73. A very gracious post indeed. I never had a problem with her staying in...

I did/do have a problem with her when she crossed the line with some of her campaign tactics. i.e. Obama not experienced enough to be commander in chief, and McCain is. That was unacceptable, and hurt us all.

[MonkeyFunk]

75. Well

little point in rehashing it now, but I believe your side consistently misrepresented what she said and meant. She was making an argument for why she would be better suited to face mcCain in the GE, not that McCain would be a better president. But then, I think your side misrepresented almost everything she said or did throughout the entire campaign.

It's been a huge disappointment to see DU turn into what it has become.

And I think the Obama campaign was really unfair to portray the Clintons as racists. That hurts the party, too.

[LVjinx]

76. Yes, and I hope we will see that repaired now

Many Obama supporters employed absolutely heinous tactics against Hillary, and then turned around and accused her of being the one doing it. It's upsetting. I'm furious. But Obama is certain to be the nominee, and it is our passion for our individual candidates that has driven this debate. I would have preferred Obama win without Hillary being labeled corrupt and racist too. It makes part of me want to vote for McCain just to punish Obama for not telling his supporters to cool it. But, ultimately, a time for reconciliation has come. We need a democrat in the White House, and clearly Obama is the one who is going to get the nomination. I understand if Hillary is hesitant to come around after the kind of things that has been said about her (and I have to repeat, not by Obama but by some of his supporters), but I think now is the time to shift gears towards unification.

The truth is - Hillary now has the power to undo a lot of what's been done to her. She has a very narrow window of opportunity to put this campaign behind her. She doesn't need to drop out, but she does need to congratulate Obama and say she's behind him. But the race is so close to finished, she owes it to those of us who've given her money to see it through. She can't win, but she can show she's still a fighter but she knows what's best for the party. If the superdelegates have to publicly force her out, most of her supporters will probably go for McCain.

We can't afford that.

[MonkeyFunk]

77. Which is why I think he may well

have to choose her as VP.

It has two big benefits to me:

1) I think it's a winning ticket and

2) It would drive the Obama fans here absolutely batshit insane.

[Zachstar]

79. She is still not done yet so Obama Supporters we need to continue to work!

We need to continue to phonebank and support and not think this is over! Clinton could pull a "Red Storm Rising" on us!

Please Phonebank!

http://my.barackobama.com/page/content/phonebankmap/