hold on a minute about this Kantor thing....

[flowomo]

Somehow I think there may be more context for Kantor's remarks.

As I recall, Bill Clinton was aggressively courting the black vote in 1992 (and was very popular with black Americans). So it makes no sense for Kantor to use the phrase "white n----r" except to refer to whites who were voting as the blacks in Indiana were voting -- i.e., for Clinton. I think it is possible that Kantor was remarking on the 42-40 spread and thinking that a lot of white voters were voting for Clinton -- and those people would have been considered by the GOP as "shit" and "white n-----s." I think Kantor might have been chortling over the fact that the GOP was losing white votes to the "blacks' candidate" in Indiana -- and using the GOP's words to describe them in a "so much for that argument" way.

This could be wrong; Obama supporters will want it to be wrong; but I sense there was a history to that phrase known to the people in that room. Otherwise it makes no sense whatsoever.

[NJmaverick]

1. Considering the whispered tones he used, it's clear he was not saying something he was proud of

[flowomo]

5. of course not, but he seems to be "quoting" something....

perhaps phrases he had heard GOP operatives use to describe Indiana whites who supported Clinton.

[graycem]

60. He sure seemed to be

snickering to me, and that says he was saying something he didn't want overheard, and it was said before he remembered cameras were there. The problem is, it's reactionary, it was pretty automatic for him, so that must REALLY be his opinion.

[Orsino]

86. ...or that what he was saying was just semi-private Sekrit Campaign Stuff...

...that he wanted to keep below the level of audibility. I can certainly understand his doing that in front of a rolling camera.

[ingac70]

2. "White Ni@@er"..... the DLC codeword...

for working class.

[flowomo]

12. links please

[SoxFan]

20. Bullshit

I've been to a half dozen national DLC conferences, and I know most of the folks involved in the organization's leadership team. I have never heard ANYONE involved with the DLC make a racially offensive remark.

[ChairmanAgnostic]

66. exactly. They only say that with no witnesses.

[Exilednight]

71. He's technically correct. It may not be a DLC code word, but that iswhat the term.................

"white n----r" means. It's basically a term used against people who are non-black with limited education or working-class roots. It was used to described Irish immigrants, Polish immigrants, or people of mixed race.

[speedoo]

3. As much as I hate thinking about the n-word....

I think you may be on to something here.

[dkf]

4. I really doubt any explanation as to what the phrase meant will help much

[flowomo]

9. you're right as a political metter....

but that doesn't mean we shouldn't consider the possibility as a historical matter.

[Binka]

6. Are You A Stand Up Comic When You Aren't Posting On DU?

Actually this isn't that funny but you never really are.

[flowomo]

18. thank you for the respectful reply....

though I can't remember the last time I tried to be funny here.

[oviedodem]

7. N****R is a very bad word to classify ANY human being; black or white

[HereSince1628]

8. Good luck with that. That's like saying a woman is a great c**t

and arguing it was a compliment.

Even in 1992 the N word was never a word to be used. I think the same might be said of shits

I've never heard anyone say Oh man you are a great Shit! I wish I had more SHIT friends like you.

[mrreowwr_kittty]

10. Uh, nice try.

Kantor was saying that he didn't really care if they won IN because they were a bunch of _______s anyway.

[boobooday]

11. Noble effort - I understand benefit of the doubt and all that but

Not convincing to me. Seems like a stretch. As a Hoosier, I am totally offended.

As an American citizen, I am totally offended that this is how we are discussed behind closed doors.

[marimour]

13. how does that make it any better?

Im offended at the word white ni**er no matter how he used it. Im black and I don't even use the word. Its despicable.

[Starbucks Anarchist]

14. Are you a NASCAR driver?

Because you're going in circles.

[thevoiceofreason]

15. Put "those people are shit." into context. Spin away, baby.

[high density]

The media doesn't care about context

Nor does the Clinton campaign. Guilt by association boomerang time.

[rox63]

16. Sorry - There's no way to put a positive or innocent spin on what he said

With or without context.

[tabasco]

17. There was more context to Rev. Wright's comments too.

But nobody gave a shit. All we heard was "God damn America."

[flowomo]

19. exactly....

and both cases deserve the same consideration with respect to that point.

[tabasco]

26. Let me search your posts begging for greater consideration of Rev. Wright's comments.

Then I'll get back to you.

[tabasco]

54. Goddamn hypocrite.

Here's your latest post regarding Rev. Wright:


"The danger is that Sen. Obama, or his wife, said something to Wright over that 20-year relationship that Wright will now use to discredit the senator, who, of course, has now denounced him. If Wright pulls out some remark made privately or casually to him by Sen. Obama (and can do so without violating the pastor/congregant relationship), that would drag the senator back on stage for another rebuttal."

Nowhere in all of your posts did I find a single one in which you asked people to consider the context of Rev. Wright's remarks.

You are a goddamn hypocrite.

[flowomo]

70. why would I need to?

since dozens of other posts were making the point about context in the Wright case.

But what exactly did you find problematic with the post you cited here?

[BklynChick]

23. exactly

[rateyes]

21. Isn't gotcha politics a sad thing?

Wright was used against Obama, taken out of context.

It may be you are correct. But, in the press it won't matter.

[Lerkfish]

28. live by the smear, die by the smear.... oh how they hate it when the chickens come home to roost

[Blue_Roses]

22. calling someone a "white nigger" is the same as calling them "trailer trash."

and you can spin and twist this all you like, but is clear and on video that he said those things to mean exactly that.

[SteveM]

47. Respectfully, only somewhat accurate. See #41 below

[Blue_Roses]

75. oh for the love of God,,.

mincing words about the "definition" doesn't matter to Joe sixpack. He knows he's been offended and in a bad way. That's the only way he sees it.

[SteveM]

84. I agree, but knowing the origins of these expressions is worthwhile...

For example, I wonder where both the meaning of "Joe sixpack" comes from and how it is actually used.

[demwing]

24. Here's your context

up by 2 in Indiana
Kantor says "It doesn't matter if we win, these people are SHIT"
and asks Stephanopolis "How would you like to be a worhless, white nigger"

Kantor is psyched that Clinton is looking at a landslide. He doesn't care that the margin in Indiana is tight. It doesn't matter if Clinton carries the state, because he's doing so well everywhere else.

[libnnc]

31. exactly

open and shut

there's no explaining this away

The Clinton camp is and always has been garbage.

[flowomo]

32. you could be right...

but thanks for at least engaging the point -- as most others here are only interested in insult-and-run responses.

[Lerkfish]

25. and I could be a pink centaur! I could! prove me wrong!

sheesh, just speculatin don't make it so.

[alcibiades_mystery]

27. Yeah, sure

Hey stupid: this is what all political consultants think about voters: they're worthless pieces of shit to be manipulated.

Get a fucking clue.

[Orsino]

29. I sense missing context, as well...

...but context won't matter when the sound bite hits the news--as with "God damn America!"

[Occam Bandage]

30. The pathetic consistent defense of Hillaryworld: "Um, they're just saying

what Republicans would say!"

It's how they defend bullshit attacks on other Democrats, and now it's apparently how they defend outright racism.

[Life Long Dem]

33. And also - which pales to what this video is about - is

how cozy James Carville and George Stephanapoulos are. Carville with his arm around Stephanapoulos.

I just know, Stephanapoulos and Clinton staged that ABC debate. And Clinton had all those questions to review and rehearse. You just know it.

Different story, but this video also shows how cozy they really all are. Just wanted to point this out.

[dionysus]

34. omfg, are you serious, deluded, or really that fucking stupid?!?

:rofl:

[flowomo]

38. thank you for the respectful reply....

n/t

[dionysus]

59. ok you answered it, you really are that fucking stupid...

[DadOf2LittleAngels]

35. Wow denile aint a river in egypt...

[DefenseLawyer]

36. He looks like a low rent Gordon Gekko in those suspenders too

I wonder if he was wearing guccis? The perfect get-up to wear when you call midwesterners shit and worthless white niggers. Greed, for lack of a better word, is good.

[global1]

37. I Guess KKKarl Rove Has Had An Influence On Your Thinking Here.....

nice spin and nice try - but no cigar (no Bill Clinton pun intended).

Looks to me that the HRC Campaign is in crisis mode now and is furiously trying to quash this video in any way that they could. I guess some e-mails and faxes have been sent out to the HRC surrogates as you can see that their are some HRC support posts now on DU. My, my - they work fast. Good spin network - I guess. It's that 35 years of experience.

[suston96]

39. It's from a movie ABOUT the 1992 campaign. A movie?.......

From NBC's Domenico Montanaro

With the Indiana and North Carolina primaries less than 96 hours away, making its way around the pro-Obama blogosphere is a clip in this video of former prominent Clinton administration official Mickey Kantor calling Indianans an expletive. It is an excerpt from the movie "The War Room" about the 1992 Clinton campaign. Kantor, James Carville and George Stephanopoulous are reading over results from various states, including Indiana, when Kantor says:

“Look at Indiana, wait, wait, look at Indiana: 42-40. It doesn’t matter if we win. Those people are . Excuse me."

http://firstread.msnbc.msn.com/

It's from a MOVIE about the campaign......! You know movies? That's what this is!

[flowomo]

40. it's a documentary... a very famous one...

and well worth watching.

[kenny blankenship]

49. War Room is a documentary

You know DOCUMENTARIES ?

[Dr Fate]

65. The footage contains real-life Clinton people- not actors. It's documentary footage.

LOL- This isnt "Rocky"- this is real footage.

[SteveM]

41. Some context from pre-civil rights-era South...

The term "white nigger" was used (chiefly) by whites to describe a white person who identified and associated with black people and their culture, and to white folks so poor that they were forced to use some of the same "welfare" services which blacks used. To be sure, it is a term of contempt.

I have used this expression in fictional dialog, set in circa 1890 Florida. It is an essentially obsolete term, like "bad Negro" (blacks who don't follow the laws or customs of the Jim Crow South), since few people still use it.

[flowomo]

43. and would you think that whites who "associated" with blacks...

would be a group that the Clinton campaign, in 1992, would have "insulted" -- or was this not part of Clinton's base?

[SteveM]

56. I don't know what is in Kantor's head, but there is danger in using old terms...

Sometimes folks use the "white nigger" term to disparage blue-collar/rural whites in general. Check upstream where someone likened "white..." to "trailer trash." This isn't how the hateful term was originally used; whatever precision there was has been lost from lack of use. Once resurrected, it becomes a generalized insult. Perhaps Kantor was doing this.

Keep in mind that blue-collar/rural whites (esp. males) have long been an accepted target in political and cultural dialog (see the debate over the Second Amendment for a quick study). This emboldens many within "liberal" ranks to throw out these insults like it was okay, even culturally hepcat. This is a practice too prevalent in "liberal" circles.

[futureliveshere]

42. Could be, but we dont watch ANYBODY's remarks in context do we??

As an Obama supporter I am thrilled that the Clintons are getting a taste of their own medicine now.

[asthmaticeog]

44. ...

[leftofcool]

45. It won't matter on context

HuffPo, Kos, KO and no doubt Tweety will be slobbering over it like gold.

[EffieBlack]

46. What is the APPROPRIATE context for calling someone a "white n-gg-er?"

[flowomo]

51. when quoting.....

Many of you have used the phrase in this very thread. Are you insulting anyone? No, because in context, you are quoting someone. I wonder if Kantor was quoting some GOP street-level talking point. Just wondering. And you can see how costly it is to wonder about such things as I am being bashed very hard here.

[grantcart]

48. you may be right about this and there may be even better explanations

lets get you and everyone else on Larry King and explore the positive context of Indiana's 'white nigger and piece of shit remark'

love it

[Marnieworld]

50. Then that should have been his defense when asked about it

He just denies saying it and threatened to sue.

[flowomo]

52. didn't know that.... link please....

[Marnieworld]

64. Link to his denial

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2008/05/02/clinton-adviser-claims-in_n_99810.html

[flowomo]

72. ok, thanks for that....

people here seem to think I'm stupid, hypocritical or worse. Actually, I voted for Obama in the PA primary, as I've posted here many times. But that doesn't stop me from thinking or questioning.

And this is interesting, from that link:

Indeed, a review of the original copy of the 1993 film The War Room, from which the excerpt was taken (around the 4:40 mark) is virtually inaudible. The sound suggests, if anything, that instead of saying "How would you like to be a worthless white n****r?" Kantor says, "How would you like to be in the White House right now?"

[Spazito]

80. I find this comment by him to be very interesting...

"I have listened to and so have you. You can't tell what it is I'm saying in that second sentence, you can't decipher that."

He does NOT include, in his denial, what he DID say at that time which, imo, if he, indeed, did NOT say at that time he should have been very quick to iterate what exactly he did whisper. If his only defense is "I have never used that word" but cannot remember what he did whisper, it is still open for question, imo.

With today's technology, I have no doubt what he said will become audible and we will all know what he whispered.

[marzellino]

53. Very smart thread

Recommended. It makes sense, and is not simplistic.

[pompano]

55. Do I smell....

[flowomo]

63. can't tell what you smell because the link doesn't work...

but I'll be happy to look at it when it works.

[pompano]

68. I fixed it...sorry n/t

[Texas Hill Country]

57. ITS FAKE! .... link inside

http://www.politico.com/blogs/bensmith/

[ingac70]

61. Calling people in Indiana "shit" was crystal clear. n/t

[graycem]

58. Sorry..

but it is nothing but a derogatory remark, equating "white trash" with "blacks a.k.a. the n-word" so try again. James Carville knew what the heck he meant because he's from Louisiana. I assure you, it means exactly what it sounds like it means.

[Dr Fate]

62. I think Hillary should say exactly what you said in a campaign speech. n/t

n/t

[flowomo]

74. LOL -- well since I'm a "stupid," "hypocritical" evildoer....

who actually is an operative deep inside the campaign, I'll pass it on to her.

[Dr Fate]

77. Are you a hypocrite for real?

If you defend this language but attack Obama, I would believe it.

[flowomo]

78. all my posts since 2004 are available for inspection....

you can decide.

[Dr Fate]

79. I'll just take them as they come- thanx. n/t

n/t

[KittyWampus]

67. #1. he was whispering #2. he was playing to the cameras #3. look at Stephanopoulus's reaction

[flowomo]

76. all true.... but he said this "playing to the cameras"?

what does that tell you? Who did he think would see the film from those cameras? The world, actually, since the cameras were held by people making a documentary, The War Room.

[Terran]

69. A bit of a stretch, your explanation...

to say the least.

[flowomo]

73. sure, but what's a "discussion" board for?

It's pretty dangerous to speculate about some things around here. But what the heck..... some people enjoy discussion and engage the question.

[BootinUp]

81. The remarks in the video are not at all clear as to what he said

and what he meant. This blogosphere effort to make something out of it to attack Hillary is beyond childishness.

[mindfulNJ]

83. Are you kidding???

Do you really think if something like this came from someone associated with Obama you Clinton supporters wouldn't be shouting from the rooftops by now? C'mon...be honest...I know it's tough.

:eyes:

[BootinUp]

85. .

[izzybeans]

82. No excuses. They lost Indiana. it's over.

I'm done with them. Everyone I know is done with them.

[Barack_America]

87. That is my interpretation as well, BUT...

He needs to leave the campaign quietly. Explaining why you said "n*gger" just digs you a bigger hole. And if Clinton is going to be the nominee, this isn't going to help her with African American voters.