My gawd! I WISH Obama would learn how to speak!

[scarletwoman]

Just caught a clip of him on the Jim Lehrer News Hour, talking about what a completely bad idea the "gas tax holiday" thing -- making arguments that I COMPLETELY AGREE WITH, btw -- and it drove me fucking nuts.

He was terrible getting at his message across -- stumbling, stuttering, "uuum"-ing, pausing. Come ON! If you believe what you're saying, you sing it out! It was so frustrating to watch!

It was like he had only just NOW caught onto the thought that making a contrary argument might be a good idea.

The night Obama appeared on Jay Leno in 2006 (His very first appearance on Leno, shortly before he officially announced his candidacy for president), I purposely stayed up late to watch it. (Watching Leno being something I had long studiously avoided.)

What struck me most was how easily and smoothly his speech flowed out when he was answering Leno's queries about his book and his life. As long as Obama was talking about himself, there were no "um"s, no "uh"s, no long pauses. He was talking about something that really mattered to him.

And whenever Jay steered the conversation into matters of policies and political philosophy, the stutters and stammers and "uh"s came back.

I was NOT impressed, and I posted about it several times back when it occurred. Obama loves himself more than you and me. I don't care, really. I pretty much assume that only heavy-duty narcissists are going to go through all the shit that running for U.S. president involves, anyway.

And, yes, I also watched his speech way back at the 2004 Dem Convention. It was nice, it was of considerably better quality than the past 2 or 3 decades of political speeches. But I never saw (felt!) that there was anything transcendent about it.

In fact, it mainly seemed like a smooth reworking of the themes and frames that we've been locked into for decades. Like reworking a fox trot into a bossa nova -- same tune, different percussive emphasis.

All that being said -- please hear me out before you start wailing on your keyboards -- the BEST reason to support Obama is because he's managed to get all these people all hopeful and wanting change and all. If only they had a SMART leader (or leaders), they could become a profoundly powerful political force.

The dilemma that this presents to Obama is that he may be forced to move into a more genuine populist direction. If so, he damned well better hurry up.

And he better learn how speak about it with the same passion he allegedly put into his pre-Wright campaign rally speeches. (I don't have cable, and my antique computer cannot handle audio or video files, so if it hasn't been on network TV, I haven't seen it.)

I despise Clinton with the fire of a thousand suns, btw, lest anyone think I support Obama's opponent.

sw

[YDogg]

1. "lest anyone think I support Obama's opponent."

I thought mccain is Obama's opponent?

:shrug:

[scarletwoman]

33. "I thought mccain is Obama's opponent?" Not yet. (nt)

[butterfly77]

105. Whats the matter...

you can't take a well spoken,thoughtful speaker. Or are your ears just trained to listen to BUshit.

[Condem]

147. yes,yes.

[mystieus]

2. Its a good sign that one is giving great thought to their words.

[NorthCarolina]

16. With the media ready to pounce on his every word

he has no choice but to parse every word before uttering it.

[knixphan]

43. exactly.

[1776Forever]

72. You got it - Who can blame him for that! Anyone that has half a brain should know that!

:thumbsup:

[JoFerret]

113. Poor thing

Thank goodness they don't do that to Hillary. And thank goodness people on DU are reasonable and fair minded about both candidates.

[roguevalley]

61. some people have lived half their lives thinking that presidents talk

like that twat in the white house. actually having measured words, to insure your remarks are thoughtful and complete is a new thing for some. He knows how to speak. He isn't willing however to just shoot off his mouth. Go, Obama. Give me an educated person any day.

[Two Americas]

94. very similar, actually

I have always noticed that when Bush talks about himself, he is much more fluent.

This is a tell tale sign that reveals what a person's true priorities are. When Obama talks about politics, he is more afraid of making a mistake than anything else. picking his words laboriously and hesitatingly. There is no fire there at all and words do not come smoothly. He is afraid that he might say something that will hurt him.

With great leaders who have a clear and selfless vision, the reverse is true. They hem and haw when asked about themselves, but on matters of public interest the words flow naturally and smoothly, and are infused with great passion.

[goclark]

143. He speaks for me and he speaks to me...

[VolcanoJen]

62. And wouldn't that be refreshing?

It's amazing to me, after the last eight years, what people get all in a twist about.

"He pauses too much between words! He's too thoughtful!!!"

:eyes:

[butterfly77]

95. He pauses and thinks about what he says because...

he knows they are going through tape after tape to parse every word he says. These people who try to pretend that they are angry because he said bitter or cling are full of it.

This was an excuse made by the republicons and Hillary to keep everyone's eyes off of the issues and hillary could go out and pretend that she is the only person in the world who could be president.

[dbmk]

132. I gather from the OP

..that she would consider a car salesman smart even if he spouts BS. As long as he does it fast.

The guy IS smart. Predicting the results of the Iraq war before it began. Early on asking for intervention against the practices that was instrumental in bringing about the mortgage crisis. Saying no to the gas tax holiday, because its dumb. He is showing more insight than anyone I can remember seeing in his position.

He wants to be precise. Nothing wrong with that. One would think that its more important to have the president make the right decisions than have every word roll of the tongue. Would it be better it it came a little more freely flowing? Sure.

[hedgehog]

3. Intelligent people with a large vocabulary often speak in that manner

when they are thinking through a problem as they speak and/or selecting just the right word for the moment. It's one way you can tell that Obama is really answering the specific question rather than parroting the closest matching memorized sound bite.

[Hutzpa]

17. You're wasting your time with that one

LIV!

:evilgrin:

[scarletwoman]

38. Who is "that one"?

Sorry, I'm not familiar with the acronym, "LIV".

And I sincerely hope that no one wastes their time.

sw

[H2O Man]

23. That's it.

Onama often thinks while he is speaking. It is not as easy for some people to listen to him when he is doing this (others have no problem with it), but it is often the most important time to listen.

[scarletwoman]

48. The thing is, I've done public speaking.

I know what it's like to present a position and bring the audience along with me. I've been a performing artist for a very large part of my life. I know what it takes to win over an audience, to pull them so far into your experience that they lose their own sense of themselves and are pulled along into a current that they never would have experienced otherwise.

Effective political advocacy is no different; you pull people out of themselves. You lure them into an expanded worldview by the power of your convictions.

I still haven't seen anything that leads me to believe that Obama has the power of very many convictions besides his own ambition and self-love.

I've given public speeches, just gave one today, in fact. It's NOT difficult to speak about the things that really matter to you -- not if you've been thinking about them for awhile.

sw

[H2O Man]

60. Respectfully disagree.

I have also been involved in public presentations for many years. I've studied it, to try to improve over time. One thing that I remember is Jesse Jackson saying that most people are okay with a person who at times struggles when they are speaking; I think that is especially true when a person answers questions. A good example was Senator Robert Kennedy, who was not a gifted speaker, but is still recognized as being one of the most powerful voices of the 1960s.

In terms of presidents, only three of the past eleven have been good public speakers. At his best, Obama is as good as those three at their best.

[scarletwoman]

71. It really hurts to do this, but I guess I have to disagree back.

And I am totally open to the possibility (probability?) that I am misunderstanding what you've written.

What I'm saying is this: If you've been thinking about how the world works for awhile, you ought to, perforce, have developed some vocabulary with which to express yourself. Especially if you are attempting to sell yourself up as being the alchemical process by which lead is turned to gold.

Simply put, you already know your arguments inside and out, if they truly arise out of your deepest convictions. You don't need to choose your words carefully, because you have already carefully sifted through the nuances of language for the words that most accurately reflect what you truly want to communicate.

You only have to choose your words carefully if you are equivocating.

sw

[Two Americas]

101. those are completely opposite

Struggling, or making mistakes is one thing. Having the confidence to correct oneself, pause for reflection - those are signs of confidence and strength. Hesitating and being cautious is another thing - fear of making a mistake, fear of losing control.

The contrast between the two is very clear, though superficially they can seem similar, and this reveals what a person is passionate about, what they are willing to give themselves over to. Obama is very fluent and flowing and comfortable talking about himself and his career and campaign. He is very cautious, hesitant and fearful when talking about issues. In this he is not any different than most politicians, so it is not some terrible slam against him. But we should pay attention to this, and not get too carried away with the comparisons to RFK, etc.

Someone who has studied public speaking may err on the side of seeing caution as a good thing. The best speakers don't study it, they speak from the heart and their passion is what is communicated, not their skill.

[H2O Man]

111. Both Malcolm X

and Martin Luther King, Jr., studied public speaking.

Struggling and making mistakes are not the same.

[Two Americas]

127. understood

Thanks. We see this a little differently, but I respect your opinion and it has value in my view.

[VolcanoJen]

64. I've done public speaking, too.

More importantly, I've watched our public speakers speak for decades now.

And while it's clearly Rovian to attack a candidate on his strengths rather than his weaknesses, this dog won't hunt for you. This argument has a broken leg.

Obama's an amazing, inspirational speaker. It's the main reason he's where he is right now, and to hit him on that front only makes you seem, I don't know, reaching comes to mind.

Did I pause too long?

[scarletwoman]

73. As I said in my OP -- I wrote this post in reaction to watching a clip on the PBS NewsHour.

As I also said in my OP; I don't have cable TV, so I only see what shows up on network TV. Which means PBS, ABC, CBS, NBC; period. Nothing else.

Nothing else also including online video and/or audio, because I'm nursing along an antique PC that crashes repeatedly.

I'm probably much worse than Karl Rove, btw. I'm a leftist.

sw

[Two Americas]

118. lol

"I'm probably much worse than Karl Rove, btw. I'm a leftist."

}(

That describes me, as well.

[scarletwoman]

140. Thank you. (nt)

[Two Americas]

124. false assumptions

People are so caught up in the candidate wars, that they make false assumptions about what other people are doing and saying and project their own mindset onto others. Throw in a few inflammatory terms like "Rovian" and pretty soon everyone loses their minds and communication completely backs down.

There is no evidence that I can see that the OP is "attacking a candidate on his strengths" as some sort of dishonest trick or subterfuge for the purpose of advancing a covert agenda. None. And the posting history of the OP strongly contradicts your demeaning and insulting narrative about the OP's motives. You offer no evidence.

There is no evidence that the OP is trying to get any "dog" to "hunt" by trickery or deception, as you imply, either - and in fact, I find that "this dog" does in fact "hunt" - that is to say there is value and validity to the OP's point of view. You offer no evidence, merely insinuation.

"Obama's an amazing, inspirational speaker" you say. The OP does not find that to be true. Why should we assume that your personal opinion is valid, and the OP's opinion is not on a matter that is so clearly subjective?

"It's the main reason he's where he is right now" you say. Again, that is an opinion, and it also mis-characterizes the OP's position. Obama does inspire some people - has anyone denied that? The OP is about his relative passion and the relative power of his speaking depending upon what he is talking about. There are many other factors that explain why Obama is where he is today. He most zealous followers love his speaking style and his speeches. But many do not. That means that it is subjective, and if some are not inspired by his speeches, why assume that the fault is with the listener?

"Reaching comes to mind" and "did I pause too long?" are just sarcastic and mean-spirited swipes at the OP that are devoid of any meaningful content, and cannot be helpful or constructive. Finishing your post that way strongly suggests to me that you do not so much deny the validity of the OP's points, but rather don't like them and do not want to hear them.

[scarletwoman]

142. The OP very much appreciates your well-stated and supportive appraisal of the OP.

I hope your reputation doesn't suffer as a result.

:D
sw

[Auntie Bush]

163. Congratulations! And thanks for the post.

[Marie26]

100. I disagree

Think of yourself, or other people you know. When people start talking about something they're really interested in, they speak faster, more intently, & w/more fluidity. Look at Edwards, Gore or Hillary Clinton - when someone asks Gore about global warming, his eyes light up and the lecture begins. Same thing w/Hillary on health care, or Edwards on poverty, because they are talking about a subject that they truly care about & know a great deal about. W/Obama, it's almost the opposite. On personal or philosophical matters, he is very eloquent. But when it comes to policy, his speech becomes very halting & stammering. That reminds me more of Bush than anyone else.

[woolldog]

4. I've noticed it's gotten worse lately

He's suffering from paralysis by analysis. He's so worried about his words being twisted and taken out of context that he double and triple checks them before they come out.

Hope he gets back on his game soon.

[Bensthename]

9. you are right..

He knows everything he says is poured over looking for a way to attack him as the front runner.

[tridim]

10. Every word he says is microscopically scrutinized by the MSM

He's just being careful. That's a good thing.

[woolldog]

22. He's got to shake it and get back to the old Obama.

I don't know how and I can certainly understand it, but neither McCain or Clinton do that. It's bad.

[scarletwoman]

55. See, I don't think that it IS a "good thing".

Just say what you really mean and say what you really feel, and let the spin be damned.

sw

[tridim]

63. He always says exactly what he means and what he feels.

What are you talking about?

[scarletwoman]

79. I'm talking about the fact that I don't get that at ALL.

He always says exactly what he means and what he feels.

See, the thing is, that's never been *my* impression of Obama.

[tridim]

84. Give me some examples of things he has said that he didn't mean.

[Texasgal]

11. I think I would be the same way!

It's gotta be rough knowing that every word will be scrutinized... I don't blame ANY candidate for having a few..."ahhh...errr...uhhh" Moments.

[scarletwoman]

19. Bingo! The thing is -- imho, of course -- if you really BELIEVE something, then the words to defend

your position just fall off your lips.

I want to hear someone say what needs to said without having to fucking think about it because it's so fucking obvious -- if you really fucking care!

sw

[TahitiNut]

The days of "candidate-as-advocate" are long gone in the Democratic Party, sadly.

Look what happened to Kucinich. Even Edwards. Anyone who speaks strongly and fluidly against the insidious stances promulgated by the plutocrats gets raked over the coals.

[woolldog]

31. Well, I disagree with that basic premise,

It doesn't have anything to do with how strongly you believe something.

It has to do with not wanting to be misunderstood and wanting to put things in precisely the right way (if you're a perfectionist).

[Raine]

59. That's ridiculous if you believe and

want others to understand you choose your words more carefully. Only a fool would not care about taking their time in explaining when something really is important to them.

[Piperay]

68. Like Ronald Reagan huh?

I hated the guy but can't deny he was one of the best at giving speeches and answers, is that what you want? Lies and manipulations can fall really easily off the lips, maybe you're too young to remember him though.

[dbmk]

134. Pretty easy to say

for someone that hasn't had their every word sifted through for soundbites that could be used to misrepresent, attack or even ridicule you on national television.

He got hit hard, doing exactly what you advocate, on the bitter issue. In that case pausing a few more seconds might have spared him TONS of explaining and time wasted on a non-issue.

Kerry by error omitted one word from a sentence (that was written in the speach beforehand and handed out afaik) - and he got KILLED over it.

Small errors that doesn't really speak to their overall qualities as speakers. But hurt their cause immensely.

[K Gardner]

42. This is true.. and as you and others have said, the microanalysis is paralyzing his normal verbosity

but gads.. I can't imagine that microscope. Every. Single. Word. If not uttered in cadence and order, he's analyzed and crucified.

[scarletwoman]

83. So what? If you believe in what you want to say, you just say it and let the chips fall

where they may. I'd rather have more GUTS and less calculation.

[dbmk]

135. That is naive. Plain and simple.

The world of the primary/GE in the US simply does not work like that.

And I fail to see the direct corrolation between speaking tempo and honesty/precision.

[Veruca Salt]

116. I'd wager money that you're right

Someone up-thread mentioned the whole 'bitter' fiasco, so it's understandable that he'd be choosing his words carefully since it's down to the wire now and the M$M is in full force against him.

[babylonsister]

5. Ironic that.

I heard Nancy Giles last night lauding Obama for speaking thoughtfully, pauses and all. She seemed to think his words came from his heart so he wanted to express them correctly. I think the same thing, but different strokes...

[Bensthename]

6. True.. I think he knows he has to be careful in this sound bite "gotcha" times now..

People want to take him down so bad if he uses the wrong adjective it will be talked about for weeks.

[cali]

7. he's reflective rather than reactive or canned

it's that simple.

[GCP]

8. Michelle Obama kept interrupting him

During the Meredith Veirera interview - even she could see there was a problem.

[tridim]

15. Not even close. nt

[Seeker30]

Jim Lehrer? Is he broke and needs free media coverage?

[cbayer]

51. What's wrong with Jim Lehrer? nt.

[TahitiNut]

12. He's a silver-tongued orator compared to Chimpy

I find his delivery to be contemplative, cautious, and pleasant. (It's a bit like I talk when being thoughtful.)

[Raine]

13. Yeah he shouldn't think before he

speaks, that really slows him down. It's so much better to be a motor mouth who speaks in sound bites and without thinking. :sarcasm:

edit: typo

[RainDog]

14. I heard him speak last night

and he was incredible. I suppose we see and hear what we want to see and hear, but the 13,000 people in the arena who came to hear him seem to have shared my pov that he was articulate, inspiring, informed about issues -- in fact, nothing like you have presented him here.

all in all, I'd say this issue gets a -

[crankychatter]

18. yeah but you support your candidate like...

well, nevermind

my opinion doesn't matter to you

[scarletwoman]

88. Just to be clear, I don't have a candidate.

I only have a default.

[ruggerson]

20. Interesting that it's the total reverse with Hillary

She is fluent, comfortable, eloquent and passionate when it comes to discussing issues and what she wishes to help accomplish for this country.

She is not so comfortable when discussing her personal life and things she holds private.

[TahitiNut]

28. So's Chatty Cathy.

Loaded with sound bites ... just pull the string. :shrug:

[stillcool]

39. that was good!

thanks...I needed a laugh!:rofl:

[VolcanoJen]

65. The cow goes "moo!" The chicken goes "cluck!"

:rofl:

[Pirate Smile]

67. The problem is that I automatically doubt almost everything she says.

Perhaps there are no "uhhh's" but there is a huge credibility problem.

[PM7nj]

121. She is too comfortable while speaking.

I honestly think she doesn't realize what she is saying sometimes. Sniper fire? Obliterating Iran?

[LisaM]

138. Yes, you're right.

I was thinking that, you said it very well.

[ErinBerin84]

21. haha, I'm listening to a song right now with the lyrics

"you stuttered like a kaleidoscope, 'cause you knew too many words"


His stammering bothers me at times as well. I'm not sure it's a demonstration of his narcissism as much as it is a nervous habbit, like of like Hillary's laugh. He should work on it. But in the end, it makes me think that he is reflective (because I am biased as his supporter).

[Faygo Kid]

24. If only he wouldn't keep saying "nukular."

Oh, wait.

Wrong dude.

[Erin Elizabeth]

25. That's funny because that's been something I've

always felt is really awesome about him--his confident, assured speaking style. I loved Dean when he was in the running, and I loved his ideas and his passion and he was awesome, but he sometimes could be caught off-guard or seem flustered or hesitant and it drove me crazy because I knew how awesome he was, but with Obama? I've never once felt that.

Whatev.

[Erin Elizabeth]

26. BTW, this is what gave you away:

What struck me most was how easily and smoothly his speech flowed out when he was answering Leno's queries about his book and his life. As long as Obama was talking about himself, there were no "um"s, no "uh"s, no long pauses. He was talking about something that really mattered to him.

And whenever Jay steered the conversation into matters of policies and political philosophy, the stutters and stammers and "uh"s came back.

[scarletwoman]

93. "Gave me away"? As what? Just curious, did you see that show? (nt)

[dbmk]

136. When they are talking about personal (himself or family) stuff

there is way more room for error. It is a topic that is much more loose and hard to come at him with afterwards, as he is not likely to say something that will offend people while on that topic. Or can be used to make people think he did so.

Your conclusion is a stretch at best.

[Muttocracy]

27. I think it's the TV interviews that are throwing him.

Videos here of him speaking to small or large groups in Indiana, he's much smoother - even when he's answering spontaneous questions rather than giving a speech.

But I haven't seen that much because I don't have a TV, so I'm basing on what's been available online lately.

I remember him stammering in the debates a bit too, though it just doesn't bother me as much as someone clearly saying crazy stuff.

[stillcool]

40. I love watching the town hall's..

perhaps if the OP had seen more on say Youtube he/she would not have such problems with his speaking abilities. But if it weren't that, it would certainly be something else. I've seen posters here criticize him for his 'fake accent'.

[Orsino]

29. This is a strange claim.

Obama is IMO the finest speaker left on the campaign trail. If he's actually fumbled an appearance, that would be news to me.

[scarletwoman]

77. I hope I've made clear that my "strange claim" is based solely on what I've seen via my limited

access to corporate media.

I would never deny that Obama is an effective speaker; I'm only trying to point out that he's more effective in some contexts than in others.

Unfortunately, it's the "other" contexts that interest me.

sw

[democracy1st]

103. Exactly so why the hell are you so demeaning

[Bucky]

123. Well, who are you gonna believe, DU's pat responses or your own lyin' eyes?

Or make that "lyin' ears."

[scarletwoman]

128. I've always been a heretic.

;)

[merbex]

30. I wrote a comment yesterday mirroring your point except I was

bothered( and have been for a while how he says 'aaaaannnd' for 'and'......

It drives me nuts.

He takes a 1 syllable word and turns it into anywhere to 5 to 10 syllable word!!!

It is my pet peeve but it is becoming for me like nails on a chalk board.

It's like he uses that word like a comma to pause the sentence while he gathers his thoughts and it becomes like a droan/groan.

Listen to him sometime

Aaaaaaaannnnnd

Uggggghhhhhhhh!!!!!!!(says me)

[DogPoundPup]

32. I wonder why he has to measure his words so carefully before

speaking? Gee, I wonder why?

"In a presidential race with a former First Lady and a son of admiral who married into a vast beer fortune, it's the black guy who has to prove he's not "elitist""....

[Lucky 13]

34. well at least it's better than cackling manically at a journalists legitimate question.

But that's just me

[scarletwoman]

35. Heh. Not even one rec. I knew I didn't belong here. (nt)

[The Magistrate]

37. Cheer Up, My Friend

An interesting observation, over-all.

It seems to me like thinking aloud, more than anything else. But you are right, he is going to have to get it honed better in future. Oratory and conversation are different fields, and he is going to have to blend them.

And by the way, you now have one recommendation....

[scarletwoman]

81. Thank you. I'm delighted to find you here!

I value good oratory. I love language and the constant challenge of making oneself understood.

I love careful analysis and examination of data. You might say that I am emotionally attached to rationality. :D

I love making a case. I love marshalling all the intellectual ammunition I can bring to bear on an argument.

Which is precisely why weak, hesitant, stammering defenses of perfectly defensable positions just drive me frikkin' NUTS!

AAAAAGGGGGHHHHHHH! :banghead:

Love,
sw

(edited because I misspelled "ammunition" -- go figure)

[Genevieve]

36. Alot better than this:

''YOU KNOW. I gave contemporaneous accounts, I wrote about a lot of this in my book. YOU KNOW, I think that, a minor blip, YOU KNOW, if I said something that, YOU KNOW".

Actual quote from HC defending her imaginary sniper attack.

[Muttocracy]

44. there you go - that drives me CRAZY!!!

It's a lot more condescending than ummm. That and she starts every sentence with "Well......" to buy time. Or else "Well, you know, ......"

[Genevieve]

47. "Well, you know" . . . . .

and then there's that damn ear piercing cackle of her's (every time she tells another lie).

[knixphan]

46. ya knooow, ya knowww...

exactly

[Genevieve]

50. Actually, it's

Y'KNOWW.


:hi:

[knixphan]

70. YES!

:hi:

[GoldieAZ49]

41. umm er well I ah um errr wonder why that is important after 8 years of Bush we are used to it

not much difference, you just have to continue to fight the urge to finish their sentences for them

[blogslut]

45. It's called thinking before speaking

I know you're not used to it. None of us are used to it because we've had so many years of opposite behavior from our elected officials and public figures. We've grown accustomed to rapid-fire talky talk and blabbity blab. Measured, contemplative delivery has been sacrificed to protect us from the demon dead air.

If I were to give the Senator advice it would be to teach himself to simply pause instead of voicing audible 'covers' for pauses.

Personally, I dig the extended consonants and other "thinky" sounds he makes while collecting his thoughts. I don't hear them as the uhs and errs of a man with nothing to say. When he answers or expounds he is always clear and eloquent.

[flowomo]

49. he has been ineffective at extemporaneous speaking lately....

I agree with that. I've mentioned it in conversations with friends outside DU and they agree. His press conference denouncing Rev. Wright was painful at points -- both for the emotional content but also for the halting delivery. I actually teach public speaking (had our last class tonight!) and this is generally a sign that the speaker has not worked out an answer beforehand. If you can anticipate the questions (and he should have been able to do that on that occasion) then you just pour it out. Obama seemed to be forming the answer on the spot -- why would he do that?

[crankychatter]

52. If every gesture, nuance and inflection was scrutinized 24-7 by everyone on EARTH

you might start picking your words with care

Clinton on the other hand... it's easy

JUST PULL THE RING AT THE BACK OF HER NECK

Sermonette number 37: Topic - Fill in the Blank

[dcindian]

53. I Agree!!!!!

If he could only say things like obliterate Iran or, God bless us rich people, or even you elitist pig..... Man if he just do that I would vote for him in a minute.

[scarletwoman]

56. Ah! Thank goodness the total idiot faction has been heard from! I was beginning to worry. (nt)

[dcindian]

66. sacarism can be pretty tough on a keyboard.

Really what did you expect.

You paint Americans as shallow bunch of idiots after 7 years of a man who cannot put a sentence together and you then you post this crap? If anything the last 7 years have proven you ignorant on the American electorate. People look past a lot. Even the ability to speak in a president.

No it has nothing to do with how well or even what a candidate is saying. We are even more shallow then you can imagine..... It's all about what someone looks like. It's all about who the media paints in the best light...

Now next time you pull out the idiot flag try doing a little critical thinking before posting.

[scarletwoman]

76. I'm sorry. I've seen very little evidence that Americans are NOT "a shallow bunch of idiots".

No. Really.

[burythehatchet]

54. we are the stupidest fucking society ever

[scarletwoman]

91. Well, there's that, of course. Actually, I don't believe that, We're just one of the most

programmed societies ever.

I think there was more actual free thinking in Soviet Russia. They at least were well aware of the fact that they were being lied to constantly.

sw

[cbayer]

57. A couple of comments

I think he is bone tired. I can't even imagine.

I think that his words get twisted and he is being very careful.

I find it really, really nice to see a thread where concern about one of the candidates can be discussed without people attacking the OP as being a traitor - well, for the most part anyway.

I think this shows one of the ways that Obama and Clinton complement each other. There are some things at which she is better and some things at which he is better.

Just my 2cents (lol, I just looked all over my keyboard for a cents sign and I can't find one - when did they get rid of that?)

[Catherine Vincent]

58. He's being extra careful. He is black, after all.

He doesn't want some redneck yahoo whining about Ebonics.

[livingmadness]

115. I think you're onto it there

I think its very easy to be an armchair critic, to compare with your own public speaking performance when the context in which you are called to speak is entirely different. If the media coverage of the primaries in the last few months has taught us anything, it is that Obama, as a black man under intense scrutiny, has a very, very narrow margin for error. People have already made the argument about how McCain can pretty much say what he likes without scrutiny, the same seems to be the case with Clinton. After all, where is the furore over the 'rich people, god bless 'em' (which I don't personally think is as it sounds) that Obama received for bitter? He is well aware of the tightrope he walks, and it is quite possible that has an impact on his hesitation in selecting his words. I too can find it annoying. For you to extrapolate that to some kind of psychological assessment of his 'self-involvement' is totally unsubstantiated, unless you want to offer up some other kind of evidence. As a psychology phd candidate, its an incredibly weak foundation on which to make such judgments.

So he hums and haws at times. Sorry, in the face of ongoing war, recession and rampant corporate greed, that is just not the kind of minutiae that is going to have any impact on my voting preference. He articulates and inspires beautifully when the situation calls for it, and that's good enough for me.

[Piperay]

69. Ronald Reagan was a great speaker

if that's all you look for in a president, he would've been your guy. :dunce:

[Condem]

74. Guess fuckin what

Barack Obama is a great speaker. Better than Reagan.

[TexanDem]

75. You're being MEAN! If every word you uttered was scrutinized 24/7 you'd be cautious too!

[scarletwoman]

82. I AM cautious. I make sure I fucking KNOW my arguments before I make them. (nt)

[Condem]

85. Sorry, Scarlet

You don't know shit.

[scarletwoman]

86. Thank you. I wasn't interested in knowing shit, anyway. (tn)

[Condem]

87. Be MORE cautious, next time.

[scarletwoman]

89. The hell if I'm going to be "cautious"! I'm not Obama.

:P

[Condem]

90. Clinton has run a great campaign, scarlet.

Tell me about her presidency.

[JoFerret]

112. That's funny

.

[scarletwoman]

129. I am nothing if not funny. (nt)

[Honeycombe8]

78. That is his manner of speaking about issues, when it's off the cuff, unprepared. He thinks about

what he says, and he chooses his words carefully, usually. I can actually see him thinking, sometimes. Yes, that is different from most other politicians.

But he can rattle off as well as the next politician, when he has prepared a speech ahead of time, or when he's casually talking about himself or something not so important. He's pretty funny, too.

Best line: At a huge rally....he's about to speak, when a woman yells out from the bleachers, "I LOVE YOU!" He looks in that direction and immediately responds, "I love you, too!" in his best Chicago style accent. Then he starts his speech. Priceless.

[ruby slippers]

80. I know what you mean, I get frustrated, too, BUT......

he can't be any worse than Bush who uses words incorrectly and can't even pronounce nuclear.....

I think Obama is just measuring every response and I have to agree, it doesn't come off a smooth and flowing all the time. He does need to get a handle on it, though....

[scarletwoman]

92. Well, of course Obama is better than bush*. My DOG is better than bush*.

My coffee grounds are better than bush*.

I want an actual advocate who feels so strongly about the issues that he can rant about them seamlessly.

That's all I'm saying.

sw

[Radio_Lady]

96. Scarletwoman, for whatever it's worth, my husband and I were discussing this today.

We're both highly verbal people -- we have been speaking and writing our whole lives at various pursuits. We are longtime Democrats, and we supported Howard Dean until his untimely demise. My husband is currently a committeeperson for the Washington County (OR) Democrats, an elected position.

Obama's extemporaneous comments are so rambling that you don't even believe there's a passionate persona in him. This debacle over Reverend Wright just showed it up even more. Can anyone explain to me why he stayed in that church for so long? WHY -- WHY -- WHY??

Some people take that for an insult -- they say he's "too cool" for explanations.

I totally believe your views and am truly worried about this whole election cycle. Thanks for posting. K & R.

Cordially,

Radio Lady Ellen Kimball in Oregon

[ruby slippers]

99. I agree, too. That is what I was saying...he seems to want to "think" before he speaks

and even though I appreciate that he is judging his words carefully, I think that he isn't as eloquent a free-speaker as he is when giving a speech and I find myself agreeing with the others when they say he can give speeches and that is all. And, that is getting scary for such a 100 percent supporter like myself.

I just wish he would speak from the heart. Like with writing, that is the key. You can compate the difference when he is speaking with Michelle, too. It makes it too obvious. Having them together in an interview may not be a good thing. She speaks much faster. Maybe not as carefully, but with more passion...

[Jamastiene]

97. I predict...

you are in for a hot night here in the Pit. Can't say I envy you.

[Lord Helmet]

98. that's a pretty shallow critique of him

[rodeodance]

102. not shallow at all.

[Lord Helmet]

104. it would take a non-shallow person to discern it

which leaves you out, apparently, as far as I know ;)

[rodeodance]

106. name calling is shallow also. bye.

[Lord Helmet]

108. bah bye and take your failed candidate with you

[Forkboy]

126. You called Obama a "chicken" and a "wimp". You're right, you are shallow.

[datopbanana]

117. "not shallow at all. "

You really backed that up.

[Marie26]

107. Interesting

Never thought of it that way before, but you're right. When people truly believe what they're saying, usually it's very fluid, because there's no disconnect between thoughts and words. The halting, stammaring, etc. seems to suggest a disconnect there - either that Obama doesn't really believe the things he is saying, or that he is too worried about gaffes to speak naturally. That might be one reason why Bush has become such a gibbering mess; even he doesn't believe his spin anymore.

[milkyway]

109. He hasn't learned the politician's trick of filling those pauses with empty words. Most

politicians choose their words pretty carefully, but they fill those "thinking moments" with common words or phrases that mean nothing, but give them a second or two to gather their thoughts. Some just pause.

Obama had a conference with a small group of reporters and editors from the Indianapolis Star a few days ago. It was in their office and lasted about an hour and was webcast live. The questions were almost completely about policy, and his speaking style was excellent throughout, without the halting moments that the OP mentions, so I disagree with the assertion that he only speaks smoothly when speaking of himself.

[Cha]

110. Thanks, milkyway..

Obama speaks for me.

[michaz]

114. Obama speaks as he does because he "thinks" and chooses his words

carefully. I for one, like that. It is refreshing to find a candidate that actually thinks before they blurt something out.

[formernaderite]

119. he's not as good off the cuff... i doubt the public cares

though....look at the current president.

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

120. That's right. Obama can't speak.

There was a guy in GD last week who called Stephen Hawking stupid.

Stephen Hawking is stupid, and Barack Obama can't speak.

Good to know.

:eyes:

[Bucky]

122. I agree. He's got a terrible habit of thinking while he's speaking.

One downside to being intelligent is that too often smart people want to get the credit for being smart, rather than just the benefits. Obama got where he is in life by being smart and he thinks that's his top asset. So, naturally, he's showing it off. He's better at being nuanced than Kerry was, but he's still hell bent on looking like he's thinking rather than looking like he's got all the pat answers. Sadly, such an approach doesn't play well on TV.

Bill Clinton used to have the same problem in 1992 and had to learn to deliver shorter and better pre-packaged answers.

[haymakeragain]

125. WAP

Weak-assed post. Is that what is important to you, that Obama has been forced to be careful, and it bothers you? Must be nice.

[scarletwoman]

133. Oh how silly! He was talking about a POLICY matter!

He wasn't trying carefully parse a response to a question about flag pins, he was speaking to a supportive audience about a cold hard economic issue, not a defense of his character.

If you really BELIEVE in the specific, empirical course of action you are advocating, why should it be difficult to talk about? That's what I'm saying. I've seen how passionate and eloquent he can be in grand speeches, but I've never NOT seen him stammer and hesitate when it comes to speaking about concrete proposals.

sw

[Bensthename]

130. When MSM is trying to smear him. He has to watch his every word. If he uses the wrong

adjective it will make headlines for a week.

[lumberjack_jeff]

131. It must be desparately difficult to draw policy distinctions between the two candidates

In the interest of reducing fuel costs, Hillary wants to replace the gas tax with a windfall profits tax.

Obama, also interested in being seen as sympathetic to the plight of fuel consumers, is on record as wanting a significantly larger windfall profits tax in addition to the current gas tax.

When he's given the opportunity to explain his position he must make mutually contradictory statements. Either he thinks that Hillary's plan won't have any meaningful effect on prices because Oil companies will simply raise prices or he thinks that his big profit tax won't - he can't have it both ways.

In other words, if you're already on record as saying that high gas prices are bad, it's hard to say that Clinton's plan is flawed because it won't lower prices, when the same logic forces a conclusion that your own plan is worse because it will raise prices.

[sinderello]

137. Obama is a good orator

With a TelePrompTer.

[Muttocracy]

148. oh, more rising from the dead nt

[Condem]

149. Yes, Joe, Yes!

[dbmk]

139. What you MAY have an argument for

is that he is not as good a speaker (in the sense of someone that can just pick a topic up and go) as he has been given credit for.

But you used it to label him as not smart and that it somehow is a detraction from him being a good person and a good presidential candidate. That was entirely uncalled for and is not at all a logic deduction.

He shows plenty of passion when he can speak of the topic in broad general terms. Rallys and town halls prove that, beyond a doubt. But when it comes to specifics, he actually stops and makes sure what he says is the precise. Instead of rattling of a prechewed and empty speaking point.

[scarletwoman]

145. "But you used it to label him as not smart..." No, I did not. I labelled him as "unpassionate"

about things that do not touch him directely.

All that "plenty of passion" when speaking "in broad general terms" (your exact words) proves only that he is a good performer who gets energized by his audience.

It's common to any performer -- if you know any actors or dancers or singers or musicians just ask them about it. They'll all tell you the same thing.

There's a very specific kind of energy exchange that happens. It has nothing to do with rationality, it's wholly emotive. And it's very seductive -- there you are on stage with all this energy being beamed at you from the audience -- it's a total kick-ass high.

You -- YOU!!!! -- are so damn fucking cool that people swoon just from being in your presence!

I totally get that part -- as a performer I recognize and respect it.

However, as a citizen being daily fucked over by evil forces, I am decidedly less than convinced that Obama actually has a clue -- and if he does have a clue, then he is a piss-poor delivery system for what really matters to me.

sw

[smalll]

141. UMBAMA!

But then he may just be affecting that shambolic way of speaking to approximate the talk of some slack-jawed kid, and so bind Da Yoof to him ever more tightly...

"Um, like, I BELIEVE in Obama's, um, er, Hope, y'know? And that Change stuff? He, um, like totally sounds so like, um, REAL and, like, on my level, y'know?"

[Condem]

144. Do we want a liar or the truth?

You're name says it all. Probably in more ways than one.

[Condem]

146. You like apples, Scarlet?

How do you like those fuckin apples?????

[scarletwoman]

150. I have never fucked an apple. Nor was I aware that apples fucked.

Your question makes no sense.

:)

[Condem]

154. Could you please tell him how to give a speech, scarlet?

I bet you're an expert. You just lost NC. Any bets? I doubt it.

[scarletwoman]

159. "Could you please tell him how to give a speech, scarlet?" Actually, I'd love to.

Thanks for asking.

[Condem]

160. Start with Hillary!

[scarletwoman]

161. No thanks. Can't stand her. (nt)

[Condem]

162. Good night, scarlet.

[scarletwoman]

165. Good night, Condem.

[D-Sooner]

151. I agree

Obama is very impressive when delivering speeches, but much less so when speaking extemporaneously.

[dailykoff]

152. You'll get used to it.

I haven't noticed that kind of hesitation at all, but I do know that people who speak exhaustively get tired. He's been running hard for over a year.

[scarletwoman]

156. Perhaps you've forgotten what I wrote in my OP about listening to Barack BEFORE he announced

his candidacy.

It's a pattern that predates the campaign, not a product of recent exhaustion.

sw

[jillan]

153. "Um-bama"

Drives me nuts too.

[Condem]

155. Not alot of ums there, pirhana.

A damn good speech after the boredom. Gas Tax? LOL.

[CreekDog]

157. all those damned umms and ahhs

who does he think he is???

[Condem]

158. You'll get no answer, Creek

This is chickenshit, here.

[KoKo]

164. Maybe he's learning to "parse his words" after being flamed over Rev. Wright and he just

is too tired and worn out with the game to be his usual articulate self? :shrug:

[marions ghost]

166. Yeah

I think the repeated attacks have been hard on him and he's sick of the media distortion...also just tired

He'll be OK.

He and Hillary both must be getting to the end of their ropes. I don't know how they put up with this crap. Why do our candidates have to be Gladiators, fighting the Battle of Titans for two years just to lead the country? It's ridiculous. Reminds me of the movie Idiocracy...

[Thickasabrick]

167. Maybe he was tired, having a bad day, etc. It can happen!!!