Does character matter anymore?

[NJmaverick]

You know I listen to the arguments of the Hillary supporters. They say she is a fighter. They say she will do what it takes to win. They say she is tough. What they don't say is she has moral values, ethics and honor, or in other words charcter. You know it seems to me that our nation used to consider character to be an important issue, when deciding who would be President. They wanted people they felt they could trust. They wanted people who would try to do what was right. They wanted people that would put the interests of the nation ahead of self interests.

Then came Bill Clinton. Suddenly we found ourselves saying, "sure he has some character flaws, but he does a good job as President". Not to be out done the Republican put a person, who made Bill Clinton look like an alter boy. An AWOL, coke snorting, drunk driving, frat boy of privelage who never did an honest day's work in his life. Thanks to that brilliant move, the Country has been suffering ever since.

Perhaps it was President Carter, who is to blame. There we had perhaps the most moral and upstanding man, to be president, in the past 100 years. Yet he was one of the least effective presidents. I think the mistake people make, is thinking it was Carter's strong ethics and morals that made him ineffective. I don't believe that to be the case.

Could it be that we need to start looking at the character issue again? Sure every politician will tell little lies and make some promises that they might not keep. There has to be limits, though. Making up imaginary stories of heroics and bravery is going over the line. Engaging in the worse sort slime politics and saying it's ok, "because that's what the other side would do", is again going over the line. Where in the entire campaign, has she shown the moral strength? You know where she didn't say or do something that would have benefitted her politically, because she felt it "just wasn't the right thing to do"? Where has Hillary inspired people to be better than themselves?


Well maybe it's an old fashioned way of thinking, but I want a President I can look up to. I want a President that is has good and strong CHARACTER.

:rant:

[ccharles000]

1. I think Hillary has all of those things.

That is why I support her.

[Vinca]

6. She's not truthful. I hate that more than anything.

We've gone through 8 years of lies and that's more than enough.

[ccharles000]

10. I disagree.

I believe that she is a honest and wonderful person who would do great things for this country.

[NJmaverick]

12. What is the basis of your beliefs?

[Avalux]

31. How can you say that? She is a proven liar.

Your belief is in direct conflict with the facts.

[AngryOldDem]

33. You're gonna have to be more specific than that.

Adjectives just don't cut it with me right now.

[Evergreen Emerald]

28. What do you think of Obama's lies? Or are his lies immuned from

scrutiny?

"Not truthful?" You are not seeing the reality of the situation.

[Medusa]

9. Your view of her is as distorted as that 20-year old photograph of her is

She has proven that she will say anything, do anything to get the nomination even if it means destroying this party. And that is why I do not and cannot support her. Not now, not ever.

[MyNameGoesHere]

24. I could no more disown him than I can disown the black community.

I can no more disown him than I can my white grandmother.

He did disown him and he has sequestered his white grandmother. So yes he does lie. He will do whatever it takes to win. Do you hate him?

[NJmaverick]

26. Do you think that Rev Wright left him any choice but to disown him?

It took moral courage for Obama to stand by his long time friend, when the politically benefical thing to do would have been to throw him under the bus. When Obama did finally act, it was because Wright's latest actions left him no choice. This is how I want a leader to behave, honorably and restraine, taking harsh actions only when he has no other alternatives.

[MyNameGoesHere]

29. There was absolutely no reason to disown him

Most people would have seen w<R>ight for what he is, a mean, racist, spotlight seeking imbecile. Someone in the Obama camp thought that this was a good political move to make. Wow did they fudge that up. Now it just won't die. Well i support HRC and this shit goes on all the time. This is a character builder for Obama if he chooses to make it one. But if he continues to allow his handlers make him a politician he will lose SOME of his base, probably not much but enough to hurt.

[NJmaverick]

32. "there is no reason to disown him"?!?!?! You think the government invented AIDS to kill

gays and black people?

[MyNameGoesHere]

34. Hmm why bring up something i never said or even hinted at?

I thought i had actually found a supporter of hope, unity, and change and then you go off on a tangent. Oh well.

[NJmaverick]

42. What you have is something that is complex, and not a black and white issue

Barack was good enough to give the Rev Wright the benefit of the doubt. He felt the outragious remarks were the exception to the man's character. That they were said in the heat of the momement. That they didn't define the man. When he saw that wasn't the case, he did what he had to do. It's a mark of high character, that Obama took the approach he did.

[NJmaverick]

11. Can you offer some examples, of things she did that made you draw that conclusion?

[ccharles000]

17. Here are a few things.

Following the September 11, 2001 attacks, Clinton sought to obtain funding for the recovery efforts in New York City and security improvements in her state. Working with New York's senior senator, Charles Schumer, she was instrumental in quickly securing $21.4 billion in funding for the World Trade Center site's redevelopment. She subsequently took a leading role in investigating the health issues faced by 9/11 first responders.She has also worked in the past to create universal health care. It failed but she has learned from it and plans to try again. there are many things that I think of Hillary. She is strong and caring. And the leader this nation needs.

[NJmaverick]

19. Those are good things, but they don't demonstrate character or moral courage

Something like voting against the Iraq war, when it would have hurt her politically, that would show character. Do you have something along those lines?

[ccharles000]

22. I think fighting for universal health care for everyone...

was something that showed character.

[NJmaverick]

23. What exactly did she do in that "fight", that took character or moral courage?

universal healthcare is a popular issue, that helps her. Where is she taking a tough stand that isn't popular, but is what she feels is the right and moral stand?

[ccharles000]

30. I don't think at the time it was as popular as it is now.

[ccharles000]

18. Here are some things.

Following the September 11, 2001 attacks, Clinton sought to obtain funding for the recovery efforts in New York City and security improvements in her state. Working with New York's senior senator, Charles Schumer, she was instrumental in quickly securing $21.4 billion in funding for the World Trade Center site's redevelopment. She subsequently took a leading role in investigating the health issues faced by 9/11 first responders.She has also worked in the past to create universal health care. It failed but she has learned from it and plans to try again. there are many things that I think of Hillary. She is strong and caring. And the leader this nation needs.

[NJmaverick]

20. This was a poltically popular thing to do. While it was a good thing

it didn't take moral courage or charcter to do it.

[TwilightGardener]

2. She's as sleazy as her husband, and surrounds herself with sleazy people.

[NJmaverick]

13. Forget the point about the surrounding one's self with sleazy

[Armstead]

3. We've had characters -- but not much character

Bill and GW were both characters -- but didn't have much character. I think people overlooked that because of their "entertainment value." Say what you wil, they were never boring.

Alas, I think Hillary tends to be in the same mold. Never a dull moment with Hillary. Always something for the talking heads to gossip about.

But I thinkl at this point, we need someone who is steadier, and who actually would try to choose to do the right thing.

[NJmaverick]

8. Good point, didn't think about that

[Yossariant]

4. Apparently, for some, character only matters if the candidate is white. Otherwise: free pass.

[ingac70]

5. If character mattered...

Hillary and John McCain wouldn't even be allowed to run for Pres.

[NJmaverick]

14. Both do seem to have some serious deficits in this area

[Pavlovs DiOgie]

7. Bravo!

Well said - kicked and highly recommended!

[graycem]

15. Sad isn't it..

After watching the John Adams series it's amazing how far we are from those first Presidents. Why has it become a vote for a "common man" instead of an exceptional man? It truly boggles the mind how people are comfortable giving one of the most powerful positions in the world to a person because they like bologna sandwiches and beer, and then have the nerve to complain about gas prices. We are a sad population. *sigh*

[NJmaverick]

16. You know Al Gore is an exceptional man, yet the nation allowed

the village idiot/drunkard to take his job. I guess in a way we are getting what we (the general nation we, rather than the DU we) deserve

[graycem]

25. I agree

and I am not a vindictive person, but some members of my family, redneck backwoods people who voted for Bush because "we gotta' win the war" and "John Kerry is a flip-flopper" and "ain't no democrat gonna' take my guns!" have the audacity to complain about the price of groceries and gas and now want out of Iraq,...well, I can't help but think "I told you so, you idiot!"

I do feel sorry for those who have had to suffer, because of the ignorant majority.

[NJmaverick]

27. Yeah it sucks that we have to suffer for other's stupidity

[DeanDem10]

38. Right.

The media and voters pretended it was about "character." They claimed falsely that Al "lied" about being the subject for a novel, that he "invented the internet," that we was "wooden," that he was as stupid as George. We our nation sees how unlike George Gore really is. But it is too late.

[NJmaverick]

43. The sad part was that Al Gore and his supporters couldn't get their message out

Fortunately with the internet, it's easier for the truth to be disseminated to the public.

[gal]

21. Not since the last president that was impeached.

[GoldieAZ49]

35. that leaves out this election year

but I agree Character not caricatures.

[DeanDem10]

36. The problem with "character"

The problem with "character" is that it becomes whatever the media (or an opponent) says it is. It also becomes a sink for anyone to put any biased aspect of their own person perception into the mix.) No matter whom you favor, employing just (or even mostly) a "character" test is a dangerous path to embark on. That path is littered with gossipy tidbits, rumors, irrelevancies, and worse. Our perceptual processes kick in and before you know it, the taller candidate wins (that's true most of the time). As an Obama supporter I should like that one. But I don't because it is just so lazy a way for us to judge others. Fortunately (or not) the process by which people use such lame reasons is not completely their "fault." It's what people do. Unfortunately, many folks are unwilling to examining and challenge their assumptions of how personal physical and character traits affect their judgment.

The examples of Hillary's "character" touted here include she's "tough," a "fighter," etc. You could just as easily introduced some of the other supposed qualities when tend to (but don't necessarily) correlate some, with leadership, but not really tell the story. That's why leadership isn't about traits much at all. It's about the interaction of leaders with their followers to accomplish something. At minimum, it's about transactions: What will this leader accomplish for us? Hopefully, it's also about the transformation they build, a transformation bigger than the sum of the parts. Using character as they be-all of our campaign decisions enables the media to supply us with gossipy, tidbits to wear away at the fabric of a whole person. Furthermore, for traits, there tends to be optimal levels which work efficaciously. Though leadership has some correlates, traits like flexibility and extroversion, there can be too much of them. Those things matter to a point, but they are not literally requirements for leadership. Introverts can learn to compensate. And BTW, a "fighter" can go too far. The flexible can be wishy-washy, etc. A leader can be too strong (and be stubbornly out of touch). A leader can so so "strong" that she alienates a sizable portion of the party. She can talk in beliggerant terms so as to look tough and by doing so may fan another war or endanger our country. There just is no magic bullet. How "tough" is enough? How "tough" is too much? Will she go too far because she wants to look touch. We know John McCain might. What about Hillary, who is increasingly sounding like him regarding Iran.

Re behavior, there is no universal, specific leader behavior check list. I could tell you some behaviors that many leaders engage in. But their is no universal prescription. This is true despite researchers trying to come up with such a list for much of the previous century. That's one of the difficulties.

Much of what we are fed is journalists' and celebrity analysts' take on or interpretation of candidate leadership. And so the media moves in and tries to fill a vacuum they can manipulate for their own purposes. John Edwards' hair gets supplanted for his supposed character. Hillary's husband's extramarital affair(s) become equated with the totality of his character (and hers), when that is a far more complex thing that one value or issue. Or earlier on, her pantsuits (as if that has anything to do with anything (innuendo of the press, notwithstanding). And that doesn't address slapping the victim (of Bill's affair)with the responsibility, as some do. It's just not right. Obama gets equated with his minister. The absurdity of all of it astounds.

If any of us believes that "being a fighter," (unfortunately for Hillary, this is not Rocky No. Whatever) being "tough, means anything, other than campaign buzzwords, they misunderstand the leadership construct and how perceptions are formed both by the person and manipulated by the media. Mark Penn is a fighter and scrappy and tough. Do you want him for president? Those terms mean little, except the advancement by partisans of their candidate. I will write more on this later this week.

[NJmaverick]

40. You want examples of character

The Iraq vote- At the time of the vote, is was most popular and beneficial to vote yes. It took a person of character to bite the bullet and vote no.

The torture issue- McCain showed character when he bucked his party and spoke out against it. He showed a complete lack of character when he flip flop and voted to continue torture.

The School voucher program- It took character to sacrifice political points, when Obama spoke out in favor of the program.

The gas tax holiday- The easy and politically beneficial thing to do, was to support the program. The high character and moral thing to do, was oppose it (and take the political hit) because you knew the idea was a bad one.


If one is informed on the candidates and the issue, the media is powerless to control your view of the candidates.

[knixphan]

37. House is absolutely right.

That's why I supported Dennis, and why I support Barack.

If I want a divorce lawyer, I get a fighter with no moral compass.

If I want a president, I get a leader with sight.

[NJmaverick]

41. Well said! I like it!

[redqueen]

44. House? Whoever you're talking about...

I wouldn't even hire a divorce lawyer with no moral compass.

[TragedyandHope]

39. Of course it matters

Americans have demonstrated that by casting their votes for Obama.

Unfortunately, some supporters of his opponent feel as if they've been given a free pass to run wild with cloaked bigotry by railing against Wright and persisting with the notion that Obama and Wright are one in the same, despite every word Obama has ever said or written and his longer record of elected office and public service to the contrary.

The fact that Hillary does not step up and defend any all cases of offensive attacks against a loyal core of the Democratic party, tells you all you need to know about her character.