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H2O Man Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-27-08 06:49 AM
Original message
Reveille for Radicals
{1} Mere Tolerance is NOT Enough
"The American people were, in the beginning, Revolutionaries and Tories. The American people ever since have been Revolutionaries and Tories regardless of the labels of the passed and present. Regardless of whether they were Federalists, Democrat-Republicans, Whigs, Know-Nothings, Free Soilers, Unionists or Confederates, Populists, Republicans, Democrats, Socialists, Communists, or Progressives. They have been and are profiteers and patriots. They have been and are conservatives, liberals, and radicals.

"The class of radicals, conservatives, and liberals which makes up America's political history opens the door to the most fundamental question of what is America? How do the people of America feel? It is in the feeling that the real story of America is written. There were and are a number of Americans -- few, to be sure -- filled with deep feeling for people. They know that people are the stuff that makes up the dream of democracy. These few were and are the American radicals and the only way that we can understand the American radicals is to understand what we mean by this feeling for and with people. Psychiatrists, psychologists, sociologists, and other learned students call this feeling "identification" and have elaborate and complicated explanations about what it means. For our purposes it boils down to the simple question, How do you feel about people? …..

"America's radicals are to be found wherever and whenever America moves close to the fulfillment of its democratic dream. Whenever America's hearts are breaking, there American radicals were and are. America was begun by its radicals. America was built by its radicals. The hope and future of America lies with its radicals.

"What is the American radical? The radical is that unique person to whom the common good is the greatest personal value. He is that person who genuinely and completely believes in mankind. The radical is so completely identified with mankind that he personally shares the pain, the injustices, and the sufferings of all his fellow men."
--Saul Alinsky; Reveille for Radicals

The March 25, 2007 edition of the Washington Post had an interesting article by Peter Slevin, titled "For Clinton and Obama, A Common Ideological Touchstone." The article discusses the connection that both Hillary Clinton and Barack Obama had with Saul D. Alinsky, the legendary community activist. Alinsky is recognized as one of the most successful grass-roots organizers in modern political history.

He was born in 1909 in Chicago, and studied archaeology and then criminal justice, before becoming a grass roots activist. He got his start in the Back of the Yards neighborhood that Upton Sinclair made famous in "The Jungle." He believed that power flowed upward, and that individuals could best access power by being part of a group. Groups, he said, had two types of power: money and numbers. Because poor people had relatively little money, he believed that their power came in joining into groups that represented their combined strength.

Alinsky believed that the poor could obtain results through direct action, more than in voting. He did not advocate violence; quite the opposite, he knew that would be a self-defeating course. Rather, he favored using street theater, sit-ins, and constantly up-grading tactics to capture the public’s attention.

His students include Edward Chambers, the Executive Director of the Industrial Area Foundation; labor activist Patrick Crowley; East Brooklyn community organizer Michael Gecan; and the great labor leader and civil rights activist Cesar Chavez.

Along with Dolores Huerta, Chavez founded the National Farm Workers Association, which became the United Farm Workers. Cesar Chavez When a U.S. Subcommittee examined issues involved in the "grape strike," Chavez became closely associated with Senator Robert Kennedy.


{2} Rules for Radicals
"There's another reason for working inside the system. Dostoevsky said that taking a new step is what people fear most. Any revolutionary change must be preceded by a passive, affirmative, non-challenging attitude toward change among the mass of our people. They must feel so frustrated, so defeated, so lost, so futureless in the prevailing system that they are willing to let go of the past and change the future. This acceptance is the reformation essential to any revolution. To bring on this reformation requires that the organizer work inside the system, among not only the middle class but the 40 per cent of American families - more than seventy million people - whose income range from $5,000 to $10,000 a year . They cannot be dismissed by labeling them blue collar or hard hat. They will not continue to be relatively passive and slightly challenging. If we fail to communicate with them, if we don't encourage them to form alliances with us, they will move to the right. Maybe they will anyway, but let's not let it happen by default.."
--Saul Alinsky; The Latter Rain

Hillary Clinton has called 1968 a significant year in her "personal and political evolution." When she began her senior year at Wellesey College, a number of historic events had taken place: there was the Tet Offensive and major escalation in the Vietnam War; President Johnson’s decision to retire; the assassinations of Martin Luther King, Jr., and Robert F. Kennedy; and the Democratic National Convention in Chicago.

For her senior thesis, she wrote a 92-page paper on war and poverty, titled, "There is Only the Fight….:An Analysis of the Alinsky Model." She interviewed Saul Alinsky three times, and wrote that he "does not sound radical," that his tactics were "non-radical, even ‘anti-radical’," and that they represented the values found in the schools and churches of the communities he worked in.

On October 25, 1968, Saul Alinsky offered Hillary Rodham a job. She declined to accept the offer, and her career went in a different direction. In the 1990s, when republicans attempted to use Alinsky’s name to discredit her, the White House requested Wellesey College to seal their copy of Hillary’s thesis.

Although she had attempted to disassociate herself from Alinsky, as First Lady, Clinton did meet with some of the community organizers who were Alinsky students. Michael Gecan noted, "She would always say, ‘I did my senior thesis on Alinsky’."

In her 2003 "Living History," Clinton included but one paragraph on Saul Alinsky. She calls him "a colorful and controversial figure who managed to offend almost everyone." It is this approach that has convinced the majority of Alinsky students to conclude, in the words of Greg Galluzzo, that "Hillary leans toward the elites."


{3}The Democratic Promise
Alinsky: "Conservative? That's a crock of crap. Right now they're nowhere. But they can and will go either of two ways in the coming years -- to a native American fascism or toward radical social change. Right now they're frozen, festering in apathy, leading what Thoreau called "lives of quiet desperation:" They're oppressed by taxation and inflation, poisoned by pollution, terrorized by urban crime, frightened by the new youth culture, baffled by the computerized world around them. They've worked all their lives to get their own little house in the suburbs, their color TV, their two cars, and now the good life seems to have turned to ashes in their mouths. Their personal lives are generally unfulfilling, their jobs unsatisfying, they've succumbed to tranquilizers and pep pills, they drown their anxieties in alcohol, they feel trapped in longterm endurance marriages or escape into guilt-ridden divorces. They're losing their kids and they're losing their dreams. They're alienated, depersonalized, without any feeling of participation in the political process, and they feel rejected and hopeless. Their utopia of status and security has become a tacky-tacky suburb, their split-levels have sprouted prison bars and their disillusionment is becoming terminal.

"They're the first to live in a total mass-media-oriented world, and every night when they turn on the TV and the news comes on, they see the almost unbelievable hypocrisy and deceit and even outright idiocy of our national leaders and the corruption and disintegration of all our institutions, from the police and courts to the White House itself. Their society appears to be crumbling and they see themselves as no more than small failures within the larger failure. All their old values seem to have deserted them, leaving them rudderless in a sea of social chaos. Believe me, this is good organizational material.

"The despair is there; now it's up to us to go in and rub raw the sores of discontent, galvanize them for radical social change. We'll give them a way to participate in the democratic process, a way to exercise their rights as citizens and strike back at the establishment that oppresses them, instead of giving in to apathy. We'll start with specific issues -- taxes, jobs, consumer problems, pollution -- and from there move on to the larger issues: pollution in the Pentagon and the Congress and the board rooms of the megacorporations. Once you organize people, they'll keep advancing from issue to issue toward the ultimate objective: people power. We'll not only give them a cause, we'll make life goddamn exciting for them again -- life instead of existence. We'll turn them on."
--Saul Alinsky; Playboy Interview; 1972
http://www.forestcouncil.org/tims_picks/view.php?id=1075

In 1985, 21-year old Barack Obama accepted a job as a community organizer in Chicago. Although Saul Alinsky had died in ’72, Obama would work for the Developing Communities Project, which was connected to the Alinsky programs. It was there that Obama learned the Alinsky tactic of listening closely to the people at the community level, and helping to develop a program that met their needs.

After working at this level, Obama decided that in order to do more, he had to get his law degree. When he finished his education at Harvard, he returned to Chicago, where along with teaching Constitutional Law, he continued to to advocate for community-based groups. Obama never felt the need to distance himself from the Alinsky theory that the wisdom of democracy is found at the grass roots level.

During the democratic presidential primary, Barack Obama has called his work with the Developing Communities Project as "the best education I ever had."

Towards the end of his life, Saul Alinsky recognized the importance of grass roots organizing among the middle class in communities across America. He saw that the nation was moving in a direction that would pose similar problems for both the lower- and middle income families. He also knew that the grass-roots could combine to have both types of power: money and people. We see evidence of that in the internet campaigns of Howard Dean in 2004, and Barack Obama in 2008.

I strongly recommend that people interested in organizing people in their area, including for the November elections, to take the time to study Saul Alinsky’s works.
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OnTheOtherHand Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-27-08 07:00 AM
Response to Original message
1. everyone should read Alinsky n/t
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H2O Man Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-27-08 09:55 AM
Response to Reply #1
10. The younger generation
can use the internet to connect on the grass roots level on a scale that Alinsky could only have dreamed of. A key is to take the information gathered on the computer and to translate it into the community around them. The Obama campaign is helping in this area.
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ulysses Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-27-08 07:04 AM
Response to Original message
2. great post!
:thumbsup:
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H2O Man Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-27-08 09:56 AM
Response to Reply #2
11. Thanks.
I think that it should be of interest to the progressive members of the DU community.
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leveymg Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-27-08 07:20 AM
Response to Original message
3. What happened to the Clintons? Were they ever real radicals, or just opportunistic posers?
Edited on Sun Apr-27-08 07:20 AM by leveymg
When it was fashionable to be radical -- in the "golden age" of the late 1960s and early '70s -- they wore funky working class clothes and long hair, were With The People, and tried their hand at all the rest that went along with it. After law school, there was that short stint in a progressive organization, Europe, and then it was off to the Rose Law Firm and the State House.

Bill's pardon of some of the Weathermen and Puerto Rican Liberation people seems a nod to that past. Hill's roots as a Goldwater Republican still show, and with age, that seems to have again become her primary coloration. I'm afraid, she will only move further back to the Right.
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H2O Man Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-27-08 10:20 AM
Response to Reply #3
13. Interesting questions.
Last weekend, a few friends were here to watch a boxing match on HBO. The conversation before the fight involved our thoughts on the elections, includng Bill and Hillary Clinton. One friend thought Bill was a great president, but isn't impressed with Hillary. I thought he was a good president, but I've always liked Hillary more. I think Bill was a moderate-to-conservative democrat, who was able to get through both good and bad legislation. I think that Hillary is a liberal democrat with some moderate-to-conservative tendencies. Although she lacks her husband's "charm" -- a glibness that I have never cared for -- I've always considered her more organized and more capable of long-term planning.

An interesting thing about individuals and groups is how they cycle. Alinsky recognized this tendency with radical individuals/groups: those who start out radical, and who succeed in gaining advances in social status, eventually become part of that system they were fighting. This has almost always been the case, and is not in and of itself negative. A classic example in US history has been the immigrant experience -- though it has not been identical for all groups, of course, there was a general pattern for most groups in the 1800s and 1900s.
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leveymg Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-27-08 10:54 AM
Response to Reply #13
15. I'm wondering how deep her "conversion" to progressive politics was in the late 1960s.
Edited on Sun Apr-27-08 11:00 AM by leveymg
Let's not forget that many of the most prominent neoconservatives were once on the Left, but once you strip back the layers of progressive rhetoric at the core you find someone who's very comfortable using overwhelming State power to impose preferred solutions. Many of the seminal neocons -- Kristol, Podhoretz, etc. -- are former Trotskyites who veered Right in 1970s and '80s, and were welcomed into conservative think tanks and funding networks. This type is what Adorno, et al. tagged as the Left-Authoritarian personality type.

HRC, once a Barry Goldwater Cold Warrior, shows signs of regression into militarism. There's an interesting post up this morning on the Greatest about how her foreign policy advisors are all Iraq War activists or apologists. See, http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=132x5695296 Since wrapping herself up in NY politics, she's been surrounded by and seduced by the neocons, and now appears committed to the AIPAC agenda.

I think she wants to redeploy forces out of Iraq, yes, but to free up forces to occupy Khuzestan.
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H2O Man Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-27-08 11:16 AM
Response to Reply #15
18. Right.
There are numerous overlapping interests in Washington DC. The neoconservatives, who had a foundation in liberal domestic policy, but have become more focused on an aggressive, imperial foreign policy. That foreign policy involves two primary allies: England and Israel.

There is a similar group in the democratic party, the neo-liberals. The obvious example is the now former democratic senator, Joseph Lieberman. He has had a liberal domestic voting record, and is an advocate of the agressive, imperial foreign policy of Cheney & Rumsfeld.

As the neoconservatives have lost some juice in the republican party, they become more invested in cooperative efforts with their democratic counterparts. For example, John McCain isn't going to have Scooter Libby or Dick Cheney holding his puppet strings. So Lieberman does the job.

Neo-liberals continue to give vocal support to funding domestic programs. However, it is worth our focusing on their positions on trade, etc, to see where they really stand. I also suggest that people read or re-read John Dean's book "Worse Than Watergate," where he describes the characteristics of neoconservatives.
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leveymg Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-27-08 11:07 AM
Response to Reply #13
16. On a different subject . . .
Did you see my post a couple days ago about McCain's role in the Iraq WMD deception? What do you think about it - a story worth developing further? See, http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=389&topic_id=3207010&mesg_id=3207010
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H2O Man Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-27-08 01:54 PM
Response to Reply #16
32. Great work!
Thanks for linking that. I think you did an outstanding job.
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DemReadingDU Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-27-08 11:14 AM
Response to Reply #13
17. reminds me of William Ayers


William C. ("Bill") Ayers (born 1944) is a Distinguished Professor of Education at the University of Illinois at Chicago who has worked on school reform in Chicago. He was a 1960s-era radical and a founder of the Weatherman group, which later became the Weather Underground.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bill_Ayers


There is some relationship between Ayers and Obama concerning fund-raising that the media is spinning, but haven't read enough to get a true picture.



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H2O Man Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-27-08 11:55 AM
Response to Reply #17
20. Sure.
Jerry Rubin was another example. Even in his "underground" phase as Berry Freed, Abbie Hoffman had become a different type of activist.
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me b zola Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-27-08 07:37 AM
Response to Original message
4. K&R
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H2O Man Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-27-08 11:56 AM
Response to Reply #4
21. thanks! n/t
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mmonk Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-27-08 08:27 AM
Response to Original message
5. As someone who has been exposed to the Obama campaign first
hand, one can see the fruits of community organizing in action. Common everyday people with a purpose handing our flyers, voter registration forms, and one stop registration and early voting forms. They have check lists and forms to gather people's information in order to bring them aboard. It's something to see and behold and give one hope. They are from every walk of life, not just suit operatives one normally sees.
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H2O Man Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-27-08 11:57 AM
Response to Reply #5
22. Right.
The need of the day is not the suit operatives that visit the neighborhood when they are after votes. We need true grass roots organization and activism.
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blogslut Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-27-08 08:36 AM
Response to Original message
6. Recommended
I learned about Alinksy just this last week. I dig his philosophy. :)
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H2O Man Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-27-08 12:00 PM
Response to Reply #6
23. I'm sure that we
will be hearing more about him in the fall campaign. One democratic candidate is open about his ties to the Alinsky community organizations, while the other asked for her senior thesis to be sealed. I think that's one of Obama's strong points.
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Coexist Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-27-08 08:37 AM
Response to Original message
7. I wish Senator Obama would give concrete examples of what he did in Chicago
instead of saying he was a 'community organizer'. People need to know exacctly what this means. He needs to speak about how he went door to door, working to get landlords to fix plumbing, finding out people's need and problems and working to address them directly.

If people knew what being a 'community organizer' really meant, they would be much more impressed with the Senator.
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mmonk Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-27-08 09:15 AM
Response to Reply #7
9. I agree.
I tried to explain it somewhat in an LTTE. I got compliments for the piece from people who saw it.
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Coexist Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-27-08 10:40 AM
Response to Reply #9
14. do you have a link to that
so I can read it, please? I would love to read what you wrote.
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H2O Man Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-27-08 01:08 PM
Response to Reply #7
26. I agree.
I think that he found in an election early in his political career that people can tire from hearing "I've done this for you" and "I've done that for you." But he has to find the balance, and that is what communities did together during the years he was employed as an organizer.
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Annces Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-27-08 09:12 AM
Response to Original message
8. I think politicians provide facades


except for some of the genuine people like Jimmy Carter. I wish the election were over already.
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H2O Man Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-27-08 01:10 PM
Response to Reply #8
27. It's a tough business.
Strength, as Jimmy Carter has shown, can exhibit itself in different ways.
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Scurrilous Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-27-08 10:11 AM
Response to Original message
12. K & R
:thumbsup:
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H2O Man Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-27-08 01:10 PM
Response to Reply #12
28. Thanks n/t
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ClayZ Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-27-08 11:25 AM
Response to Original message
19. K and R
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H2O Man Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-27-08 01:10 PM
Response to Reply #19
29. Thank you n/t
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ekwhite Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-27-08 12:05 PM
Response to Original message
24. K&R for Saul Alinsky and H2O Man N/T
:yourock:
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H2O Man Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-27-08 01:12 PM
Response to Reply #24
30. Thanks!
There are a lot of talented grass roots activists on DU. We should be focusing on building our party for the fall elections, on the national, state, and local level.
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Tatiana Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-27-08 12:09 PM
Response to Original message
25. Alinsky is a hero of mine. One of Alinsky's most important suggestions: AGITATION.
You know, as I read this post and found myself nodding in agreement, I also wondered how many people know about Saul Alinsky? How many people actually have read any of his works? How many politicians see the relevance in what he did in his lifetime with our political process today?

Once you organize people, they'll keep advancing from issue to issue toward the ultimate objective: people power.

Curious that Sen. Clinton has begun to attack Sen. Obama's "supporters."

As Alinsky illustrates so brilliantly in the quote you've included, "people power" works. Dean was almost there. But Obama is going to cross the finish line. Start small, and move to bigger things. We may not achieve everything in an Obama Presidency, but I am confident we will make significant progress.
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H2O Man Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-27-08 01:15 PM
Response to Reply #25
31. If each person on here,
no matter if they support Obama or Clinton, were to register a couple new voters a week, through the next two months, we would probably find less to argue about on DU. I think we would find that those things we have in common are more important than the things that divide us.
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Tatiana Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-27-08 02:01 PM
Response to Reply #31
33. Many DUers here (including myself) have worked in support of voter registration drives.
You certainly get an opportunity to see many viewpoints on the current Presidential race.

And I don't need to point out that there is one campaign, in particular, that includes voter registration and GOTV as a focal point of its electoral strategy.

We all, for the most part, have a desire for the same things: a better economy, more opportunities in terms of jobs and education, peace, prosperity, a government responsive to the needs of its people. We just differ on who will best be able to achieve these goals.
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H2O Man Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-27-08 03:59 PM
Response to Reply #33
35. Right.
There are a lot of talented people on DU. Early on in the primary, it was clear that a variety of people supported different candidates. And as you point out, we almost all want the same things ..... and they are what the democratic party stands for, at its best.

As we have come down to two candidates, the fighting between the two groups of supporters has intensified, both on DU and in the larger world. It's time for grass roots groups to recognize the value of winning in November, in terms of promoting our party's values, and to be very clear on what losing would mean.

The ability to win in November will depend in large part on the ability to organize and coordinate those at the grass roots level -- the neighborhood leaders that the Alinsky movement represents.

Thank you for the work you do. Mighty glad to be on the same team!
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Me. Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-27-08 03:04 PM
Response to Original message
34. I Wonder Who HRC Is Betraying More
Us or herself. Naturally it is a betrayal which she'll expect us to pay the price for one way or another. I also wonder, if the taste of bitter ashes, for all their wealth and lifestyle, is already in her mouth, but her taste buds are currently overwhelmed by Crown Royal. It is rather stunning to see raw naked ambition and lust for power so blatantly displayed.

I read about the differences in the Obama campaign and hers. His people are happy and yet disciplined. They congratulate themselves that Axelrod is their 'Mark Penn".
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H2O Man Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-27-08 04:17 PM
Response to Reply #34
36. Axelrod:
"Axelrod has been dealt two familiy tragedies that perhaps explain why I have always sensed a certain melancholy about him. His father committed suicide when Axelroad was in college, and his only daughter among three children became developmentally disabled after suffering epileptic seizures.

"For years, Axelroad was loath to acknowledge his father's suicide. Whenever I tried to broach the subject, he would deftly skirt around it, and I would retreat. But in 2006, Axelroad finally came to terms with the loss. He wrote a poignant column in the Tribune about his father's chronic depression: 'Dad never shared his anxieties or sadness with me or, as far as I could tell, anyone else. At his funeral, several of his patients told me that he had saved their lives. Yet he could not reach out for help to save his own ....We still have a long way to go before depression and other psychiatric conditions are fully accepted as illnesses, not defects of character or failures of self-discipline. I know, because it's taken me more than thirty years to say out loud that the man I most loved and admired took his own life'."
--David Mendell; Obama: From Promise to Power; pages 166-167

There are enormous differences in the depth of character between a man like Axelrod and a swine like Penn.
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Me. Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-27-08 06:36 PM
Response to Reply #36
42. Axelrod's Presence In The Campaign
Speaks volumes about Obama
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H2O Man Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-27-08 06:56 PM
Response to Reply #42
45. Yep.
The difference in the tone of the campaigns is huge.
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coeur_de_lion Donating Member (935 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-27-08 08:50 PM
Response to Reply #34
52. Hi ME!
It's my birthday so I came to post on one of H's threads. IMHO HRC has always had that naked ambition just beneath the surface. Also IMHO. She has done this country a terrible disservice in her quest to be President. She should have stayed out of the race. Some good people didn't run out of respect for her. If she fails to get the nomination it can only be a good thing. If she gets the nomination we are hopelessly screwed.

How are you?

Arby
:hi:
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Me. Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-27-08 09:18 PM
Response to Reply #52
54. OMG...Arby!!!
Happy Birthday, many happy and all that. :party:

Now that you're here again, please stay, your voice would be such a good addition.
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coeur_de_lion Donating Member (935 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-27-08 09:27 PM
Response to Reply #54
56. I do follow
most of H2O's posts on DU, but I am staying out of the political fray for the sake of my sanity. Demanding job, busy life, hectic schedule all that stuff.

I don't feel as if I have a political voice anymore. I am sooo disillusioned. But I do promise to pop in once in awhile. It's great to come to DU and see old friends like you and H20. I see some very familiar names on today's thread. It's like coming home.

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TragedyandHope Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-27-08 04:28 PM
Response to Original message
37. Thanks for the informative post!
:kick:

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H2O Man Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-27-08 05:50 PM
Response to Reply #37
40. Thank you. n/t
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TragedyandHope Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-27-08 04:28 PM
Response to Original message
38. Thanks for the informative post!
:kick:

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calimary Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-27-08 04:33 PM
Response to Original message
39. Kicked, recommended, and bookmarked.
Yet another SUPERB think piece by our resident DU sage!

:applause: :toast: :yourock: :headbang: :woohoo:
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H2O Man Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-27-08 05:52 PM
Response to Reply #39
41. Thanks!
Much appreciated.
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KoKo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-27-08 06:50 PM
Response to Original message
43. If Obama is the Nominee and he loses...he builds the foundation for the New Dem Party...
Edited on Sun Apr-27-08 06:50 PM by KoKo01
so we might have to "go down in defeat once again" to rise like a Phoenix from Ashes? And, if we can change Senate and Congress because of all the Youth and disenfranchised African-American Vote...then we have the "rock base" for the new Democratic Party?

Out of the ashes...and we will have to wait one or two more elections cycles?

I think that's the "calculated risk" of our Dem Party and why neither Nancy nor Harry would IMPEACH...it was better to WAIT...and hold off ...because BUILDING THE PARTY in the LONG RUN...is more important than going after the Bushies...and the PAST. Better to "Move On." Which is actually what "Move On.org" did in this election when they came out fast for Obama.

That's what most of your posts seem to go at. "Keeping your eyes on the prize....way down the road" and not bothering too much with what goes on in the middle...between the Evil act and winning the Prize. There will be NO PROSCECUTIONS...and NO ACCOUNTABILITY....because it will be an impediment to those who want to BUILD..the NEW PARTY...grass roots up. So...we must forgo animosity and hopes for reparations from those who did in "Al Gore" and forced us through Seven Years of Hell...so that we can at some "future point"....regain the prize.

That's what I hear you say... and I'm not saying that if what I hear from you is what you are saying is correct that it isn't a good "strategy"...but that some would disagree about the tactics... and if the strategy and tactics aren't the "same old...same old" we Dems have been doing for decades..:shrug:
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H2O Man Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-27-08 06:52 PM
Response to Reply #43
44. "Not this time."
With Obama, we win.
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KoKo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-27-08 06:56 PM
Response to Reply #44
46. My friend...you didn't answer what I posted. n/t
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H2O Man Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-27-08 07:02 PM
Response to Reply #46
47. Sure I did.
I am not talking about Obama winning the nomination and losing the election. I do not view it as even a remote possibility. What I am talking about is what is necessary to win now, and translate the victory into meaningful change.

I do not think we are in a position where we can afford to think in terms of searching for symbolic victory when we lose.
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KoKo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-27-08 07:12 PM
Response to Reply #47
48. Pie in the Sky....we hope it falls down with "goodies for all."
I hope so...but, I'm not as optimistic as you are... Maybe Obama will make it.......this time...but I'm not hearing much different from what I heard from Bill Clinton when he ran the first time...as a New Candidate for "Hope and Change." Or, frankly, that I heard from Carter when he ran.

I want to hear a Democrat speak out about what the Republicans from Reagan on DID TO AMERICA...and I know our Dems have to be "very careful" but I'm thinking the "Powers that Be" are very reluctant to have any candidate "tell the truth" because the words are "unelectable."

I have more faith in Rev. Wright's courage about speaking out about what the truth of what's gone on is for American's "tender ears to hear" and taking his "show on the road" than I do any Dem Candidate really "rocking the boat" of the "PTB."

It's all about "Move On for the future" and "What's past is past" to the Political System and those who advise candidates about "how to get elected." Just saying.....I'd have expected much more radical rhetoric given what we've been through under Republican Control...but instead maybe we get a more "amiable and charming Kerry" along with the wife of a two-term Dem who has MEGA BAGGAGE who doesn't seem to be able to SPEAK UP against what was done to her any more than the "Hope and Change" new kid on the block. ....just saying where I come from ...as a lifelong Dem, and involved.
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H2O Man Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-27-08 07:25 PM
Response to Reply #48
49. Of the three candidates,
Edited on Sun Apr-27-08 07:25 PM by H2O Man
I do not think it is "pie in the sky" to think that Obama is most likely to win. He has a significant lead over Clinton. McCain is running for the 3rd Bush-Cheney term, at a time when the president has the lowest polls in modern history.
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KoKo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-27-08 07:35 PM
Response to Reply #49
50. I don't think you yet get where I'm coming from....If he doesn't win or if he wins...
Edited on Sun Apr-27-08 07:41 PM by KoKo01
what have we "WON?" With all the "back tracking rhetoric" where when "Faux News" or "Russert" squeaks we Dems scurry to the bunkers with our "consultants" and revise our plan of attack.

For Obama to WIN BIG ENOUGH to overide the crap voting machines and the odds against him...he will come in weak...as all Dem Candidates come in (according to the "Powers that Be") and he will be faced with the Attacks all of the rest of them have. I wonder what he could have done...if he had SPOKEN OUT MORE FORCEFULLY! Maybe if he spoke the real truth of what the Repugs did..from Nixon on down....he would have more than African-Americans, Youth who would be turning out for him and making SURE...the Whore Media would go DOWN if they ever attacked him. Just like Bush II had the Press in his Pocket because America was perceived as the Religious Right...and one doesn't cross "POWER."

We Dems have no power because we are "part of the same system." So, the media can laugh and chortle at both Hillary and Obama and folks here on the Liberal Blogosphere now take their "Talking Points" from Bush Bot sites like the "Politico" and "Slate" and the rest.

We thought we made CHANGE..but we are even worse off than we were with the Compliant Media than we were before we won back the Senate on "slim margin" and the House by much healthier margins.

It will take DECADES...and we are not helped by candidate who are too afraid to go after the EVIL that's been DONE...and instead enable the "McCorporate Media to cause fighting and divison amongst our own enabled by Reid and Pelosi ...who always look for the "next election cycle" rather than make the CHANGES that just might implicate their own selves. Much better to scratch some kitty litter over it all and find every new candidates...to throw in front of a beaten down...worn out...starved for hope Dem Party. Same old ...same old. I've watched to see if it would be different...not seeing it.

:shrug:
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H2O Man Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-27-08 07:46 PM
Response to Reply #50
51. Sure.
It will take decades. But we can only deal with "now." We can learn from the past, but not change it. We can change "now" -- and that happens when people make changes. Things aren't going to change for the better because of some leader. It will happen when people at the grass roots coordinate efforts with people in other group/communities, and put pressure on their state and federal officials.And it is still difficult, but it can be done. The proof is in the pudding: the right wing republicans planned and executed a strategy of taking control from the school board and town/city council up. I do not think they are more intelligent or more capable than the progressive and liberal democrats.

Again, it will take decades. But in each and every day of the weeks, months, and years that make up those decades, the same questions will face each of us: are we expecting someone else to do for us what we need to be doing for ourselves? and how much effort are we willing to invest in making change?
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coeur_de_lion Donating Member (935 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-27-08 09:09 PM
Response to Original message
53. Well done
Wise words H2O.

I think Miss Hillary is relying primarily on conventional power structures rather than a community based effort. It does take a village but she seems to have forgotten that. Probably busy dodging snipers in Bosnia.

I would like to ask you, what is your prediction on the outcome of the general election? Who will get the democratic nomination? Who will be the next president?

You know I always love your predictions, especially since you refuse to predict when you are completely unsure of the outcome. Are you unsure this time around? Or do you have a pretty good idea what will happen?
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H2O Man Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Apr-28-08 04:19 AM
Response to Reply #53
57. Obama
He has already "won" the primary contest; the only way Clinton can get the nomination is for the party to steal it from Obama. A group of "elder statespersons" headed by Al Gore will not allow that to happen.

In the general election, Obama will beat McCain. Again, only a theft could change that. But I do not think that will happen.
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coeur_de_lion Donating Member (935 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Apr-28-08 06:00 AM
Response to Reply #57
59. ok, good to know
I hope you are right.
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bleever Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-27-08 09:26 PM
Response to Original message
55. This great post and discussion makes me wonder
(again) about the place of justice in a revolution.

Can it really be a successful revolution if the crimes of the previous regime go unprosecuted?

We've discussed previously the importance of truth and reconciliation to a healthy way forward, and the negative consequences of letting the criminals slip away unpunished to regroup.

I wonder how Obama's administration will handle this. His campaign has been so well run that it gives me hope, but like Bill Clinton, he will be under great pressure to just "move along". But can he really move along and fix the broken system without making sure the system does what it is supposed to do with regard to unconstitutional behavior of his predecessors?
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crankychatter Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Apr-28-08 04:54 AM
Response to Original message
58. When I was a boy my sister took me to hear Saul Alinsky at Stanford
An anonymous chatter once asked me...

"When will the liberals revolt, so we can start shooting them?"

I said "You can start now if you like, because in the long run, you won't have enough lead."

Saul Alinsky was both visionary and pragmatic.

Remind you of anyone?
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