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McCamy Taylor Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-22-08 01:05 AM
Original message
Democratic Primary as American Revolution
Among the charges against King George III in the Declaration of Independence written by Thomas Jefferson was this:

http://www.ushistory.org/declaration/document/index.htm

He has refused to pass other Laws for the accommodation of large districts of people, unless those people would relinquish the right of Representation in the Legislature, a right inestimable to them and formidable to tyrants only.


The right to self determination was hard won and has been fiercely protected in the United States. One of the surest ways to power has been to stuff ballot boxes or deny others their right to vote. The Black and women’s suffrage movements fought hard--and often hand in hand---for the 15th and 19th Amendments. The Civil Rights Movement of the mid Twentieth Century sought to enforce the 15th Amendment through federal legislation which was passed with the help of Lyndon Johnson in 1964

http://www.archives.gov/publications/prologue/2004/summer/civil-rights-act-1.html

The key to Senate passage of the civil rights bill was Minority Leader Dirksen, for only with substantial help from Senate Republicans was there any hope of success. Humphrey recalled LBJ putting it this way: "Now you know that bill can't pass unless you get Ev Dirksen. You and I are going to get Ev. . . . You make up your mind now that you've got to spend time with Ev Dirksen. You've got to play to Ev Dirksen. You've got to let him have a piece of the action. He's got to look good all the time."

So Humphrey spent considerable time conferring with Dirksen, in Dirksen's office. That infuriated Humphrey&'s liberal associates, who fumed, "You&'re the manager of the bill. We're the majority party. Why don't you call Dirksen to your office?" Humphrey replied, "I don't care where we meet Dirksen. We can meet him in a nightclub, in the bottom of a mine or in a manhole. It doesn't make any difference to me. I just want to meet Dirksen. I just want to get there."

Humphrey went public with that strategy. In early 1964 he made an appearance on Meet the Press. When asked how he expected to get civil rights passed, in light of Dirksen's early vocal opposition, Humphrey recalled replying, "Well, I think Senator Dirksen is a reasonable man. Those are his current opinions and they are strongly held, but I think that as the debate goes on he'll see that there is reason for what we're trying to do. . . . Senator Dirksen is not only a great senator, he is a great American, and he is going to see the necessity of this legislation."

Humphrey said later that LBJ immediately phoned him and exclaimed: "Boy, that was right. You're doing just right now. You just keep at that. . . . Don't you let those bomb throwers now, talk you out of seeing Dirksen. You get in there and see Dirksen! You drink with Dirksen! You talk to Dirksen! You listen to Dirksen!"
This vignette tells a lot about both LBJ and Humphrey. Its show what a determined president---and vice president can and will do to ensure the passage of important legislation.


In 2000, we saw a corrupt Secretary of State in Florida strip African-American Democrats of their right to vote and a partisan Supreme Court make a ruling based upon the identities of the party in a case in order to anoint George W. Bush the president of the United States, a job for which he was fit only if one believes in hereditary monarchy. Tom Paine, did not.

Did it ensure a race of good and wise men it would have the seal of divine authority, but as it opens a door to the foolish, the wicked, and the improper, it hath in it the nature of oppression. Men who look upon themselves born to reign, and others to obey, soon grow insolent; selected from the rest of mankind their minds are early poisoned by importance; and the world they act in differs so materially from the world at large, that they have but little opportunity of knowing its true interests, and when they succeed to the government are frequently the most ignorant and unfit of any throughout the dominions.
Thomas Paine Common Sense


Tom Paine’s words have been proven so true, that I still can not understand why the first act of the Democratic Congress in 2007 was not the impeachment of Cheney, then Bush in that order. We know that Ohio 2004 was also the seen of the suppression of the rights of legal voters, but on a much larger scale than in Florida 2000. If Tom Paine were alive today, he would have demanded it.

Fearing that Congressional Republicans would use impeachment as an excuse to close ranks behind their unpopular party leaders in order to snatch victory from the jaws of defeat, Congressional Democrats decided to wait for the 2008 elections instead, forgetting that elections are a most undemocratic, chancy process in 21st century America.

Now, we have Karl Rove and his hand selected gang of RNC veteran operatives attempting to “prove” that the Bush-Cheney administration was legitimate by stealing one more presidential election. This is like fighting the last battle of World War II on a chess board, and if the German master wins, Auschwitz is declared a labor camp ravaged by an unfortunate typhoid epidemic and the Allies admit that “Jews are responsible for all the wars of the world” just like Hitler said.

Under the guidance of Rove, the RNC and America’s major corporations, the candidate most likely to win this fall---John Edwards with his emphasis on economic issues, his clean record and his personable style---was knocked out of the race early. The two candidates with scandals in their closets, Barack Obama (Rezko, whose federal trial was scheduled for the campaign season) and Hillary Clinton (Whitewater) were anointed by the press as the front runners. Agitators have been pitting the two sides against each other, ensuring that whoever wins, the Democrats will enter the general election split as they were in 1972. The historic nature of the campaigns has added a cult of personality to each candidate. Among Clinton’s supporters are a faithful core who must have her or no one, because she will be the first woman. Among Obama’s supporters are a faithful core who must have him or no one, because he will be the first African-American. Together, they play out an old contest which Angela Davis describes eloquently in her classic study Women, Race and Class. The obvious solution—a Unity ticket---has become intolerable---thanks to the work of the Republican agitators posing as supporters of the two candidates, who have broken every truce, hurled every insult, violated every common rule of decency gleefully, the way they did back in 1972, when Pat Buchanan said that the number one strategy was “attacks against one Democrat from another Democrat”.


He also warned that the Republicans must make sure that nothing they did could be traced back to them. By the next year, 1973, everything which they had done would be traced back to them. This would enable future generations to spot members of CREEP (like Karl Rove) who tried to recycle the same dirty tricks, as long as the future generations remembered what George Santayana said

“Those who do not learn from history are doomed to repeat it”


When George McGovern, desperately reeling from the Eagleton affair, reached out to Humphrey to be his VP running mate, in order to salvage the Democrats’ chances in 1972, Humphrey, that intrepid party stalwart who had kissed the ass of the Senate Minority Leader in order to win passage of the Civil Rights Act, snubbed him.

We are repeating history.

****

In his first inaugural address delivered March 4, 1801, Thomas Jefferson said

http://www.bartleby.com/124/pres16.html

All, too, will bear in mind this sacred principle, that though the will of the majority is in all cases to prevail, that will to be rightful must be reasonable; that the minority possess their equal rights, which equal law must protect, and to violate would be oppression. Let us, then, fellow-citizens, unite with one heart and one mind. Let us restore to social intercourse that harmony and affection without which liberty and even life itself are but dreary things.


This was after an administration very much like the Bush-Cheney administration, one which made it illegal to criticize the government or praise France. One that liked war. One that liked to jail its political enemies and violate a Constitution so new that the ink was hardly dry.


But every difference of opinion is not a difference of principle. We have called by different names brethren of the same principle.


Here is a very quaint list of the political smears that Thomas Jefferson had to weather in his 1800 campaign for president:

http://www.theatlantic.com/politics/policamp/parton.htm

His opponents declared him an atheist with a Black slave mistress and illegitimate children who planned to dismantle the Navy, leaving the United States open to attack by all comers while leaving Revolutionary War vets to starve to death and the nation’s manufacturing sector to wither and die.

He also had to face a mini coup to name his VP Aaron Burr president in his place, proving that the course of democracy has never run smoothly.

Jefferson was a strong defender of the will of the majority—with the coda that the rights of the minority must be protected. So, he would look favorably upon the democratic process of nominating a candidate who gets the plurality of the vote in a series of primaries. What would he think about a nomination process that is dominated by contributions from corporations and lobbyists (on both sides)?

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/craig-crawford/obamas-lobbyist-fib_b_95399.html

Or a nomination process that takes a year and a half? One that becomes a substitute for ending the war, which this Congress was elected to do and impeaching Cheney and Bush which this Congress is morally obligated to do? A nomination process as ritual purge of the nation’s Bush Infestation (sort of like a secular exorcism)? I don’t know. He was pretty tolerant. He knew that people could not help being flawed. They are only human.

I think Thomas Paine would have had some harsh words to say about the current situation. If you think about it, the hundreds of millions of dollars we have spent on the primaries could have done more good in NOLA. And the political rhetoric that is flying back and forth between the two Democratic candidates’ camps is only serving to kneecap both of them. That doesn’t show much common sense . Nor does declaring that one is more electable than the other, when who knows if the GOP will even nominate McCain (he does not look real healthy) or what the hot topic will be this fall. And assertions that one candidate is already the winner, because as of a certain date he has a lead in pledged delegates if you exclude the Florida and Michigan primary are like saying that the South won the Civil War after the First Battle of Bull Run.

Speaking of Florida and Michigan, this is a really uncomfortable topic. Many democrats would like it to just go away. Unfortunately, the voters of Florida refuse to go away. As one little old woman proclaimed by hand lettered sign during the 2001 anti-inaugural march in DC when protesters outnumbered celebrators by at least 2 to 1

I am here because for the first time in my life my vote has been stolen.


The Florida vote was stolen again in 2004, but the nation focused on Ohio, because the theft there was bigger and flashier and people up north get even more irate when their vote is stolen. That is why Ohio is a blue state now.

Last year, Republicans in Florida decided to move up the primary. They probably did this to help out Rudi, the candidate whom the Bush family was backing. They got some Dems to go along by promising them an end to hijacked elections with fair voting technology. The Dems probably did not expect their own party to disenfranchise them.

Shows what they know.

Of course, a year ago the Democratic leadership had every reason to expect that the winner of Michigan and Florida would be the winner of the nomination. And if not, there would be a clear winner, as there usually is, within the first month or two of the nomination process, so it would not matter if those early primaries did not count. But then circumstances changed. The RNC interfered. They set up Clinton and Obama neck and neck, taking care to add news media support to whichever candidate was behind and attack whichever was ahead in order to achieve a Brokered Democratic Convention just like the one Pat Buchanan engineered in 1972. And suddenly the voters in Michigan and Florida had the feeling that they mattered a lot.

Now, in a practical sense, they don’t matter. If the Florida and Michigan results were thrown in, Clinton would get 56 extra delegates more than Obama would get and his 136 total delegate lead (or 162 pledged delegates since that sounds bigger, I expect once Obama has more SDs than Clinton we will hear that number used) would fall to 80 total (or 110 pledged). That is still a lead. It still is not enough to give either of them a win by delegates alone.

Are 56 delegates that do not change the dynamics of the race worth alienating a state like Florida and its electoral votes, which can easily go for a moderate Republican like John McCain with his unorthodox immigration views? Only if the prize is the Democratic nomination and not the presidency.

This election is truly historic, just as people say. We have the possibility of the first woman receiving a major party nomination for president of the United States—in a year when the Democrats are supposed to win. We have the possibility of the first African-American receiving a major party nomination for the president of the United States—in a year when the Democrats are supposed to win. The nomination is a prize to be coveted in and of itself. That is why each side has resorted to slash and burn tactics. Clinton says that Obama is not fit to be Commander-in-Chief. Obama says that mandatory health insurance---a prerequisite for universal health care---is unfair. Clinton says “Shame on you, Obama.” Obama says “Shame on, you, “ back. Bob Novak accuses Clinton of having dirt on Obama before the Iowa primary and Obama calls out---Clinton. Matt Drudge creates a doctored tape of Clinton’s “60 Minutes” interview and Hillary’s supporters call it Obama dirty oppo. Obama says he wants no distractions but his campaign sends out repeated emails to keep the Bosnia lie story—started by his own supporter, Sinbad—alive. Clinton says that she will not use the Wright story, but then her surrogates do.

Someone needs to take them both into a corner for a time out. This is not political theater. This is not street protest or an antiwar demonstration. The enemy is not a fellow Democrat. And the enemy most definitely is not the voters of the states of Florida or Michigan. The later in particular have suffered terribly under the Bush-Cheney administration.

What about the rules. I hear a lot of talk about “the rules”. People forget that this country was founded upon breaking the rules.

There never did, there never will, and there never can, exist a Parliament, or any description of men, or any generation of men, in any country, possessed of the right or the power of binding and controlling posterity to the "end of time," or of commanding for ever how the world shall be governed, or who shall govern it; and therefore all such clauses, acts or declarations by which the makers of them attempt to do what they have neither the right nor the power to do, nor the power to execute, are in themselves null and void. Every age and generation must be as free to act for itself in all cases as the age and generations which preceded it. The vanity and presumption of governing beyond the grave is the most ridiculous and insolent of all tyrannies. Man has no property in man; neither has any generation a property in the generations which are to follow. The Parliament or the people of 1688, or of any other period, had no more right to dispose of the people of the present day, or to bind or to control them in any shape whatever, than the parliament or the people of the present day have to dispose of, bind or control those who are to live a hundred or a thousand years hence. Every generation is, and must be, competent to all the purposes which its occasions require. It is the living, and not the dead, that are to be accommodated. When man ceases to be, his power and his wants cease with him; and having no longer any participation in the concerns of this world, he has no longer any authority in directing who shall be its governors, or how its government shall be organised, or how administered.

Snip

The circumstances of the world are continually changing, and the opinions of men change also; and as government is for the living, and not for the dead, it is the living only that has any right in it. That which may be thought right and found convenient in one age may be thought wrong and found inconvenient in another. In such cases, who is to decide, the living or the dead?
Thomas Paine The Rights of Man


http://www.ushistory.org/Paine/rights/c1-010.htm

Paine was speaking about laws of one generation being imposed upon people living in new circumstances, but they can apply to any people who find themselves in a changed situation who find that old rules are suddenly counter productive. For Paine, as for many of the Founders, government did not exist outside or above the people. People actively created governmental bodies or rules to serve their needs. When rules took precedence over the immediate needs of the people, the rules became tyranny.

Let’s step back a second. What are our needs? We need to end the war. We need to get the economy back on track. We need to restore the Constitution. We need economic justice.

How will we satisfy those needs? By driving Bush and Cheney from office. And how do we do that? Not with a symbolic nomination victory of any one candidate. Neither candidate is the magical Anti-Bush whose mere existence proclaims Bush and all he stands for to be illegitimate, the way that voters in 1972 thought that McGovern's nomination proclaimed Nixon's system illegitimate. A symbol will not cut it. We need results. Since our Democratic Congress will not do its job, we must drive the Bush/Cheney NeoCon regime out of office. Our goal is and must be victory this fall. Our goal is not to nominate the first woman or the first Black. Our goal is to elect a Democratic president. Anything that stands in the way of victory this fall---including people’s egos and petty grudges—is superfluous and has to go.

So, if Democratic leadership says We must make an example of Michigan and Florida now or other states will test our authority again that is putting the power of the Democratic leadership above victory this fall. There are other ways to punish states that break the rules—or better yet to encourage them to follow them. I am sure that over the next four years, the Democrats can think of plenty of them. If Democratic leadership insists upon not counting these state’s votes and if the fall election is lost because of Florida, I can tell you which Democratic leader will be the first one hounded from office—and we need him.

If Democratic voters think that counting these votes is unfair, then this is where the Super Delegates will come in. With over 200 uncommitted there are still plenty out there to make up for any perceived wrong that may have been done to either candidate.

Now, about the Super Delegates, I agree that their presence in the primary does not seem entirely democratic. However, after 1972, when Republican interference lead the Democrats to nominate the lovable but unelectable George McGovern after the primary from Hell, the Democrats agreed that they needed SDs. And this year, as Karl Rove seeks to relive the best days of his youth, it looks like the SDs are finally going to get to do what they were create to do. They are going to bring order out of manufactured chaos.

So, just be glad that we have Super Delegates, who can not be hacked and who want what is best for the party and who, for the most part, already have jobs and so they are just going to try to pick the best candidate for the nominee. If Congressional Dems are smart, they will keep Rove tied up this summer with investigations, so that he does not have time or inclination to blackmail SDs. That is how dirty this election is.



And one more time, I am going to go on record as saying that the Unity ticket---Obama’s college educated, white collar, youth, African-American, male base, plus Hillary’s working class, blue collar, older, Latino, female base—is the obvious way to go. It does not even matter who is at the top of the ticket. The two complement each other, like the sun and the moon. Michigan and Florida are no longer a problem. None of the dirt that has been thrown by either candidate is a problem. Bush Sr. laughed off his “voodoo economics” remark when he was running with Reagan. It is like those Las Vegas ads. What you say in the primary stays in the primary--- if you run with your main opponent.The fact that neither candidate has succeeded in chipping away at the other’s base ought to prove how devoted a following each candidate has and how the combination of the two will spell victory this fall.

But a Democrat with half a base and the other half lukewarm or maybe even alienated because of negative campaigning aimed at their darling? That is 1972 all over again.



Bonus. These are all most likely RNC lies being played on the Democratic Primary:

1. Stories about how Obama bussed in the same 800 voters to caucuses all across the country

2. Stories about how Hillary has been hacking the E-vote

3. Stories about how Obama/Hillary is doing push polls but the person did not use their caller ID so they do not have a number and they did not record it but they know what was said word for word

4. Anything you read in Drudge that says it comes from a Democrat

5. Stories about violence directed at supporters in which no police report is filed--real violence of this nature would be a big deal and would lead to a police report, newspaper coverage, major media coverage

6. Polls that are totally screwy

I keep posting this link just to remind Democrats of what people like Rove did to Ed Muskie back in 1972 to drive him from the race. With the internet it is possible to do much more sophisticated dirty tricks now. Be skeptical of any anonymous claims you read that sound weird and which can not be documented.

http://www.woodstockjournal.com/elections.html

If in doubt, do like the patriots did in Boston Harbor and dump that tea into the water. Do not drink it.

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bhikkhu Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-22-08 01:22 AM
Response to Original message
1. Well done, and well worth a read (or two).
I know not everyone likes to think about stolen elections, but I would certainly rather know. Thanks.
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newmajority Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-22-08 01:25 AM
Response to Original message
2. "Men who look upon themselves born to reign, and others to obey, soon grow insolent;...."
That explains both Chimpy and Hillary right there.
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splat Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-22-08 01:39 AM
Response to Reply #2
4. The OP tags Howard Dean with that
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Dammit Ann Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-22-08 01:28 AM
Response to Original message
3. Damn smartest thing I have read in GD:P.
Thank you for your voice of reason. K&R
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gateley Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-22-08 01:53 AM
Response to Original message
5. K&R! nt
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splat Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-22-08 01:54 AM
Response to Original message
6. It's by Ed Sanders of The Fugs


Now, about the Super Delegates, I agree that their presence in the primary does not seem entirely democratic. However, after 1972, when Republican interference lead the Democrats to nominate the lovable but unelectable George McGovern after the primary from Hell, the Democrats agreed that they needed SDs. And this year, as Karl Rove seeks to relive the best days of his youth, it looks like the SDs are finally going to get to do what they were create to do. They are going to bring order out of manufactured chaos.

So, just be glad that we have Super Delegates, who can not be hacked and who want what is best for the party and who, for the most part, already have jobs and so they are just going to try to pick the best candidate for the nominee.


I was fervently for McGovern. I wasn't wrong, but my fervor contributed to the re-election of Richard Nixon.

My older self would like to reach back in time and say, "We need to front somebody who can beat Tricky Dick or the war will continue and America will get a lot worse." (And show me how it turned out!)

This has all been going on far too long.
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Tyler Durden Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-22-08 05:20 AM
Response to Original message
7. ANOTHER great piece. K&R
The still, small voice of REASON speaks again, thank Dog.
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santamargarita Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-22-08 06:01 AM
Response to Original message
8. What are we going to do if they steal yet another election?
Excellent piece, thank you.
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Bluenorthwest Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-22-08 08:00 AM
Response to Original message
9. Great post
And nice to see quotes from our Founders, we do have history to call upon. Hell, even I can remember that Ted Kennedy, Obama endorser, ran against a sitting Democratic President in 1980, Kennedy went all the way to the Convention and tried to get delegates to switch to him from Carter and failed. Teddy had far fewer delegates than Clinton has. I have not heard Teddy speak about his personal experience in regard to this campaign. I hear people say Hillary should drop out, and cite Teddy's endorsment of Obama, but I've yet to meet one who even knew that Teddy ran against Jimmy. By Teddy Kennedy rules, we could be fighting this whole thing again in four years, not eight. If fighting hard for a contested nomination is 'tearing the party apart' then what the hell do we call what Kennedy did, going up against Incumbent Democrat, going into the Convention behind by over 900 delegates and still trying to take the nomination?
In fact, by Teddy's rules the one who does not win the nomination should plan on running against the one who does, should the nominee take the office. And even if they are rejected by a margin of hundreds and hundreds of delegates, they should try to take it away. Not just in Denver 2008, but in 2012 as well. Teddy did.
The fact of the matter is the vote is close. I see a winner in there, but not the kind of margin that I'd want if I were the candidate. I guess since Bush won by a tiny margin, his will is the 'will of the people' too. Other opinions are merely attempts to squash the will of the people, who picked Bush and sent Kerry back to the Senate. It is the duty of the majority to remain democratic, especially when the majority is a slight one. There is such a thing as a landslide vicory. With winning comes responsibility or corruption. Winning is where one's real worth is found. Victory is the greatest spotlight on character.
This cycle is filled with people drunk on their own words and opinions, seeking not the health of our nation, or our Party, not even seeking to persuade voters or change minds. They seek only to gain praise from those who agree and to start fights with those who don't. Those who want to gloat before the finish, are always the ones too lazy or disconnected from American daily life to have any motivation to really politic. They just throw fuel to the fire. For jollies.
Those who write opinion without fact or citation, heavy on characterization and adjective, always need to be inspected for objectives. Why are they posting? If the objective is not winning more votes it is the wrong objective. Sound and fury often signifies nothing.
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McCamy Taylor Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-22-08 01:48 PM
Response to Reply #9
24. Well said! Worth a thread of its own. I would recommend this if I could!
:applause:
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LDB Donating Member (95 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-22-08 08:10 AM
Response to Original message
10. there is no single document more powerful
Than the Declaration of Independence of the United States of America. It is more eloquent and determinant in defining a Nation's rights and the individual's rights than any other in human history.

In today's USA it has been seen in various "on the street"-type tests that when text of the Declaration has been shown to people, without the calligraphy, and without the "In Congress ...." heading, there are those who deem it, without recognition, "un-american" sedition and "liberal" support of the terrorists. On the other hand there are many indeed who recognize it as our american genesis and use it and other documents like Paine's, and Jefferson's "Rights of Man", and others, to remind us why tyrants who seek to Rule in the United States must be resisted and overthrown. Despite two stolen elections, feelings of forlorn hope, and dictatorial rule by the most corrupt regime in American history we must resist, each time, time after time, until the dictators are overthrown.

It takes votes, and candidates, and unity, and determination, and just plain caring about the greater whole as opposed to the personal. It means giving a damn about the environment, about illegal war and corrupt use of military forces, about whether corporations buy candidates and oil lubricates the palms of elected officials, about health care for citizens not based on insurance actuarial profit margins, and on .....

McCamy Taylor's post above is moving and is a clarion call of truth.

Thanks from a long-time DUer who doesn't post much but reads a great deal.
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cali Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-22-08 08:18 AM
Response to Original message
11. I'm the dissenting voice thus far on this thread.
Pretentious and wordy nonsense for the most part, full of erroneous "information". I'll just mention a couple: The ridiculous WWII comparison and the absolutist statement about Edwards. It was largely the voters of Iowa and NH who knocked out JE- not Rove the boogeyman or even the MSM. And he wasn't some perfect candidate. The repubs wouldn't have had any trouble with painting him as the ultimate elitest, ambulance chaser flip flopper. There was potent ammunition aplenty. I could go on. and on. Your crap about how the RNC set up Obama and Clinton as the frontrunners, your mischaracterization of what happened in FL re the primary, your erroneous blaming of Dean.

And you really, really need to read Orwell on writing. You may be able to snow a lot of people with your verbosity, red herrings, pointless quotes and prolific little boxes and liberal use of bold, but you can't snow everyone.
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suzie Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-22-08 11:05 AM
Response to Reply #11
15. 2 dissenting voices
This former Edwards supporter was disappointed that he didn't make a better showing, but that's politics. And like all candidates, he did have flaws.

"Mis characterization of what happened in FL" is a charitable way of putting it.
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cali Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-22-08 11:13 AM
Response to Reply #15
17. why people are so easily bamboozled by pretentious wordiness
and little gray boxes, is quite interesting. The substance in the OP- if you want to call it that- is thin and full of egregious errors.
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Tyler Durden Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-22-08 09:16 AM
Response to Original message
12. Another kick past the rants and snide comments.
Thank you again for some good writing as opposed to the childish rants that seem to draw triple digit posts/recs.
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bpeale Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-22-08 09:35 AM
Response to Original message
13. wow! you are surely my favorite poster! K&R
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Missouri Blue Donating Member (84 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-22-08 10:09 AM
Response to Original message
14. If you cut 90 percent of this, it would be a better post.

You are all over the place. Most striking: no way, no way is this election going 90 percent Republican, nor 80, nor 70-- nor 50 for that matter. No matter what you say, McCain isn't Nixon-- if for no other reason because he's not an incumbent. That's crucial.

McCain got the nomination because he was the last standing. He was the default among many weak Republican candidates.

There has never been a time like today. The bridge between this time and the Revolutionary War is really weak.
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cali Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-22-08 11:17 AM
Response to Reply #14
18. But what is the OP actually saying if you cut out the pretentious crap?
Let's take a look:

That Howard Dean is solely to blame for the messes in FL and MI.

That Edwards was hounded out of the race by the RNC and the MSM.

That the RNC chose Obama and Clinton.

That Rove is such a genius and so powerful that all resistance is futile.

This is a dreadful piece of writing. Orwell would savage it.
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grantcart Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-22-08 12:25 PM
Response to Reply #18
20. if you cut out the pretentious crap you have this:
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cali Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-22-08 12:42 PM
Response to Reply #20
21. nothing would be good compared to
the distortions and lies tarted up to be deeply intellectual. I hate that shit.
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suzie Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-22-08 04:31 PM
Response to Reply #18
26. That Howard Dean is solely to blame for Florida
Edited on Tue Apr-22-08 04:32 PM by suzie
The OP attempts to divert attention from the lack of response of the Florida Democratic Party to the potential loss of delegates by stating the the Republicans wanted to hand Florida to Guiliani. Which is a diversion from the point that the Florida Party undoubtedly wanted to hand Florida to Clinton and made little attempt to devise an alternative to the early primary until March 2008.

Or, that Florida Party leaders seem to spend most of their time justifying their own behavior and blaming everything on Howard Dean.
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Seabiscuit Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-22-08 11:07 AM
Response to Original message
16. Kick & Rec. - Interesting.
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tabasco Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-22-08 11:24 AM
Response to Original message
19. Can Richard Mellon Scaife play Patrick Henry in your fantasy story?
I bet Hillary will get him to help with the "revolution."

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cali Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-22-08 12:44 PM
Response to Original message
22. Emperor's new clothes. this is what the OP exemplifies.
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ProSense Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-22-08 01:00 PM
Response to Original message
23. "the hundreds of millions of dollars...spent on the primaries could have done more good in NOLA."
Want to talk about waste and NOLA:

Finally, according to USA Today, former Clinton aides helped secure a multi-million dollar federal contract for a Georgia-based company in which Yucaipa had 20% ownership. AmeriCold, one of the nation's largest cold-storage companies, was paid up to $85 million, to help with Katrina recovery efforts after James Lee Witt, who headed Federal Emergency Management Agency in the Clinton administration, lobbied on the company's behalf.

AmeriCold's job performance became the subject of controversy and bad publicity. As USA Today wrote: "truckers who were paid $800 a day (to help Katrina victims) hauled ice from state to state without unloading, then delivered their cargoes to AmeriCold and other storage facilities as far away from the Gulf Coast as Maine."

link


Katrina: when a Bush and a Clinton team up, follow the money

From your OP:

The obvious solution—a Unity ticket---has become intolerable---thanks to the work of the Republican agitators posing as supporters of the two candidates, who have broken every truce, hurled every insult, violated every common rule of decency gleefully, the way they did back in 1972, when Pat Buchanan said that the number one strategy was “attacks against one Democrat from another Democrat”.


Come on, admit it: Hillary's despicable tactics made this impossible.

How will we satisfy those needs? By driving Bush and Cheney from office. And how do we do that? Not with a symbolic nomination victory of any one candidate. Neither candidate is the magical Anti-Bush whose mere existence proclaims Bush and all he stands for to be illegitimate, the way that voters in 1972 thought that McGovern's nomination proclaimed Nixon's system illegitimate. A symbol will not cut it. We need results. Since our Democratic Congress will not do its job, we must drive the Bush/Cheney NeoCon regime out of office. Our goal is and must be victory this fall. Our goal is not to nominate the first woman or the first Black. Our goal is to elect a Democratic president. Anything that stands in the way of victory this fall---including people’s egos and petty grudges—is superfluous and has to go.

So, if Democratic leadership says We must make an example of Michigan and Florida now or other states will test our authority again that is putting the power of the Democratic leadership above victory this fall. There are other ways to punish states that break the rules—or better yet to encourage them to follow them. I am sure that over the next four years, the Democrats can think of plenty of them. If Democratic leadership insists upon not counting these state’s votes and if the fall election is lost because of Florida, I can tell you which Democratic leader will be the first one hounded from office—and we need him.

(emphasis added)

Wow, your OP is a paraphrase of Hillary's talking points.

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McCamy Taylor Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-22-08 02:35 PM
Response to Original message
25. Thomas Paine on WHY he wrote "The Rights of Man"
http://www.ushistory.org/Paine/rights/c1-010.htm

Being an Answer to Mr. Burke's Attack on the French Revolution - part 1 of 16

Among the incivilities by which nations or individuals provoke and irritate each other, Mr. Burke's pamphlet on the French Revolution is an extraordinary instance. Neither the People of France, nor the National Assembly, were troubling themselves about the affairs of England, or the English Parliament; and that Mr. Burke should commence an unprovoked attack upon them, both in Parliament and in public, is a conduct that cannot be pardoned on the score of manners, nor justified on that of policy.

There is scarcely an epithet of abuse to be found in the English language, with which Mr. Burke has not loaded the French Nation and the National Assembly. Everything which rancour, prejudice, ignorance or knowledge could suggest, is poured forth in the copious fury of near four hundred pages. In the strain and on the plan Mr. Burke was writing, he might have written on to as many thousands. When the tongue or the pen is let loose in a frenzy of passion, it is the man, and not the subject, that becomes exhausted.


Or, as William Blake, the poet said more succinctly

The Crow wish'd every thing was black, the owl that every thing was white.
Marriage of Heaven and Hell


Now, what Burke's writing said about the man Burke and his audience in Great Britain is that they were scared as shit that the same type of revolution of the lower classes would happen in England. After all, just one hundred-fifty years before, that country had gone through a series of similar upheavals. So, they wanted to instill a message of fear in the hearts of Englishmen. Therefore, Burke lied, distorted and made villains of the French just as the John Adams administration would do in order to promote their own political leadership at home.

Modern people think of the Founders as being irreligious, but in fact they were opposed to organized state sponsored churches, which they believed corrupted religion. This was the view of Paine and of Jefferson. In the writing of Blake, we see that the revolutionary spirit of that time embraced nondualism, a philosophy that was a natural partner with the democratic urge.

http://www.foow.org/heretic/kabbalahwritings.html

YOU ENLIVEN EVERYTHING

There must be a contraction of God’s presence. For if we believe that Ein Sof
emanated the emanation and does not clothe itself within, then everything rhat
emanated is outside of it, and it is outside of everything. Then there are two. So
we must conclude that nothing is outside of God. This applies not only to the
sefirot
but to everything that exists, large and small –they exist solely through the divine
energy that flows to them and clothes itself in them. If God’s gaze were
withdrawn for even a moment, all existence would be nullified. This is the secret
meaning of the verse: “You enliven everything.” So divinity flows
and inheres in everything that exists. This is the secret meaning of the verse: “God’
s presence fills the entire world.” Contemplating this, you are
humbled, your thoughts purified.

--Moses Cordovero, Or Yaqar



Nondualism is still the way of the revolutionary.

http://www.stanford.edu/group/King/about_king/warandpeace/wpquotes.htm

Through our scientific and technological genius, we have made of this world a neighborhood and yet we have not had the ethical commitment to make of it a brotherhood. But somehow, and in some way, we have got to do this. We must all learn to live together as brothers or we will all perish together as fools. We are tied together in the single garment of destiny, caught in an inescapable network of mutuality. And whatever affects one directly affects all indirectly. For some strange reason I can never be what I ought to be until you are what you ought to be. And you can never be what you ought to be until I am what I ought to be. This is the way God’s universe is made; this is the way it is structured.

John Donne caught it years ago and placed it in graphic terms: "No man is an island entire of itself. Every man is a piece of the continent, a part of the main." And he goes on toward the end to say, "Any man’s death diminishes me because I am involved in mankind; therefore never send to know for whom the bell tolls; it tolls for thee." We must see this, believe this, and live by it if we are to remain awake through a great revolution.

--Martin Luther King, Jr., Remaining Awake Through A Great Revolution


Only through nondualism can a democracy founded upon majority rule respect the rights and needs of the minority as Thomas Jefferson hoped that it would.

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skepticscott Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-22-08 06:13 PM
Response to Original message
27. Could you possibly write with any more desperation?
I give you credit for imagination, and long-windedness, but let's put this all in a nutshell:

-You'll stop at nothing to see Clinton as the Democratic nominee.

-Clinton can't win the nomination without the delegates from Michigan and Florida.

-To that end, you'll spin the DNC's simple adherence to the principle that you can't have a fair election if you change the rules midstream in any way you can, no matter how much you have to twist facts
and logic to convince people.

You couldn't possibly be any more blatant about it if you were a paid shill for the Clinton campaign.
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Usrename Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-22-08 06:18 PM
Response to Original message
28. You can't be serious.
Last year, Republicans in Florida decided to move up the primary. They probably did this to help out Rudi, the candidate whom the Bush family was backing. They got some Dems to go along by promising them an end to hijacked elections with fair voting technology. The Dems probably did not expect their own party to disenfranchise them.


All the Dems in Florida went along with it, save one. The anti-Dean wing of the party (Sen. Nelson and the other DLC New Democrat types) are behind this debacle, and they keep trying to fuck up the party while pointing the finger at Dean. I think you should take a close look at http://journals.democraticunderground.com/madfloridian">madfloridian's journal if you want to know the truth about this stuff.



So, if Democratic leadership says We must make an example of Michigan and Florida now or other states will test our authority again that is putting the power of the Democratic leadership above victory this fall. There are other ways to punish states that break the rules—or better yet to encourage them to follow them. I am sure that over the next four years, the Democrats can think of plenty of them. If Democratic leadership insists upon not counting these state’s votes and if the fall election is lost because of Florida, I can tell you which Democratic leader will be the first one hounded from office—and we need him.


There isn't any other solution that would actually discipline the offenders. We have a rogue group in the party, and they would not be deterred by other sanctions (like the Republicans only seating half the delegates). They will not stop, they need to be kicked from the party into the waiting arms of the Republicans, just like Lieberman was.

And one more time, I am going to go on record as saying that the Unity ticket---Obama’s college educated, white collar, youth, African-American, male base, plus Hillary’s working class, blue collar, older, Latino, female base—is the obvious way to go. It does not even matter who is at the top of the ticket. The two complement each other, like the sun and the moon. Michigan and Florida are no longer a problem. None of the dirt that has been thrown by either candidate is a problem. Bush Sr. laughed off his “voodoo economics” remark when he was running with Reagan. It is like those Las Vegas ads. What you say in the primary stays in the primary--- if you run with your main opponent.The fact that neither candidate has succeeded in chipping away at the other’s base ought to prove how devoted a following each candidate has and how the combination of the two will spell victory this fall.


Of course it matters who is on the top of the ticket. Hillary would not be able govern if she were Vice President and succeeded him upon his death. Even she would not be able to overcome that sequence of events, no matter how he expired. Use your head.
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nonoxy9 Donating Member (154 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Apr-23-08 12:02 AM
Response to Original message
29. So, When will you call for Hillary to drop out so Obama can ask her to be VP?
And then we can all come together to defeat the GOP overwhelmingly.
Or is this crap about Florida and Michigan more important than that to you. Ya know, the sacrifice of the few for the benefit of the many?
Somehow I get the feeling Hillary doesn't understand that concept.
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