At Clinton HQ, they're making a list... checking it twice.

[Coexist]

I read this over at Americablog, and it amazed me because I recently heard the same thing from someone else.

For your reading pleasure, think of it what you will:

Another reason Hillary Clinton is losing may be explained in tomorrow's NY Times. The Clinton campaign seems to spend a lot of time figuring out which disloyal Democrats to hate -- and to what degree they should hate them. The Clinton campaign is on life support and they are busy making an enemies list.

<snip>
It does sound like the crew at the Clinton HQ puts a lot of time into tracking who, in their minds, has screwed them over. John Kerry is currently at the top of the hate list (a top Clinton supporter says Kerry is now "dead" to the Clintons):

Mr. Kerry, his top aides and family members have received varying degrees of tongue-lashing from Clinton surrogates, chiefly two top fund-raisers — John Coale and Peter Maroney — with previous close ties to Mr. Kerry.

(Quick aside: Mr. Coale is married to Greta Van Susteren from FOX News. Oh, and for what it's worth, they're both Scientologists.)

Now, I'm just saying that it might have behooved the staffers, fundraisers and consultants associated with Team Clinton to put some time into being decent to those who could have helped them. However, Team Clinton took a different approach -- and look where it got them. The arrogance of that campaign, and the sense of entitlement, permeated everything they did. John and I learned first-hand that if you weren't 100% with them every step of the way, even if you went far out of your way to help them on numerous occasions, you were persona non grata - not needed. Not that we ever wanted to be needed by Team Clinton, but we saw how they treated people who ever strayed from the reservation. And we weren't the only ones to experience the special charm that is Team Clinton. Lots of political types -- and reporters -- we've spoken to have similar stories of how they too were mistreated by the campaign. It's a window into the character of the campaign, and its leader - and it isn't pretty.

Your thoughts?

[C_U_L8R]

1. Where do we sign up to get on the list?

hahaha

[Coexist]

2. as a donating, canvassing, phonebanking MoveOn member

I guess I'm already on it.

Agent Mike - do you have access to 'the list' and would you let me know if I'm on it, please!

[AZ Criminal JD]

57. The list is for people that have influence

You won't end up on it.

[C_U_L8R]

59. elitist.

ha.

[SunsetDreams]

3. My thoughts are it, sounds along the lines of

her "screw em" statement and mentality. She uses people.

[Coexist]

who does "if you're not with us, you're against us" bring to mind?

[Coexist]

4. delete - dupe

[krkaufman]

53. And has no concern for those who aren't their supporters.

Very much a Bush-like "you're with us or against us" mentality, which we need to be very done with in this country.

[merh]

5. Well at least now I know what she did that interview on fox

(Quick aside: Mr. Coale is married to Greta Van Susteren from FOX News. Oh, and for what it's worth, they're both Scientologists.)

And this has always been the impression I have of these folks which is why I have always found bill's friendship with poppy bush so disconcerting. I mean, it makes no sense to be buddies with the man who was part of the efforts to destroy you.

[dkf]

6. We had better make sure Obama wins the whole shebang or they will make his life hell.

"This arrogance and vindictiveness of the Clintons is important to understand. It helps explain why Hillary won't get out of the race even though she can't win it. The world revolves around Hillary and Bill. They're willing to destroy anyone who gets in their way. "

[Coexist]

12. it worries me that she will still be a Senator

with the power to work against Obama.

[dkf]

15. When is she up for re-election?

Maybe we can get RFK to add himself to the "enemies list".

[Coexist]

18. she was re-elected in 2006

4 more years to go.

[dkf]

23. Ugh. Guess we have to live with her then.

Maybe she'll wreak enough havoc to disgust everyone if they aren't there yet.

[grantcart]

37. yeah but the other Senators don't like it when one of their own gets too big for their

britches. If she continues and ends up humiliating herself she will have a much reduced power in the Senate.


Also they are not going to appreciate the fact that she made life so difficult for them.


And they are particularly not going to like what they did to Richardson.


Finally if Obama wins it all they are going to see her as just another lame duck Senator with no presidential possibilities.

[Zhade]

7. Sounds like b*s*' "with us or against us" - and her supporters here do, too.

NT!

[rwheeler31]

8. Very sad, she has supporters who are undermining her

campaign. She should have taken control of this a long time ago.

[me b zola]

69. Make no mistake, she is at the helm

She is the one who has run her ship aground.

[global1]

9. The Quickest Way To Make The Clinton's List Impotent Is To......

get as many democrats to support Obama. When Obama wins - the Clinton 'disloyal' list won't even matter. I can't understand why these powerful senators and congressmen/women let themselves be intimidated by people like the Clinton's or Bush's that make lists and say - you're either with them or against them. If no one supported them - or if everyone supported a different candidate - no list would even have the possibility to exist. There's power in numbers.

List like described above are old time Washington politics. It's time for a change and our elected officials to stand up to bullies like the Clinton's and Bush's and tell them to shove their 'loyalty lists'.

[Stephanie]

49. They let themselves be intimidated because they thought she was going to win.

Last year, it seemed as if she had it wrapped up. Everyone wants to be on the inside, nobody wants to be left out in the cold. Unless, of course, you are guided by principle instead of self interest. Regardless, when she seemed to be headed for the WH those career pols and operatives wanted to make sure they were headed there with her, in line for a nice government position or backing in their campaign efforts. The Clintons run an old school game.

[OnceUponTimeOnTheNet]

50. I wonder if Sheldon Whitehouse regrets his choice at this point.

I've not seen him standing behind Hillary since her Celestial Choir speech. Obama did alot for Whitehouses' election.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H08BL5q47h0

[Jane Austin]

62. I heard an interview with Lincoln Chafee,

who Whitehouse defeated for his Senate race, and Chafee has left the Republican party and has endorsed Obama.

When asked what he thought of Whitehouse, he said something positive, and then he added that he didn't like his vote for declaring the Iranian armny a terrorist group or his vote against telecom immunity.

He said, "I wouldn't have voted that way."

[krkaufman]

54. Yep. She had about 160 superdelegates on her side before the first vote was cast.

(and we didn't hear her berating those superdels to give ALL the people a chance to vote before committing)

[TML]

10. I want in

Put me on the list. :evilgrin:

[ProSense]

11. Well, I'm sure this didn't make Hillary's day

Video

[Coexist]

14. great article!

[karynnj]

32. Campaigning for Obama seems to be agreeing with Kerry

He sounded and looked great. You would never guess that he is about 3 years older than Clinton.

[Triana]

13. Sounds.....

....Republican.

Specifically, bu$hco-like Republican.

No thanks. I'll stick w/ Obama.

[boppers]

16. This is Scientology doctrine.

No, really, it is.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scientology_controversy#.22Dead_agenting.22

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Suppressive_Person

This is how they think. Things that aren't real, or aren't convenient, can be wished away, or denied, simply by attacking and alienating any others who dissent.

[dchill]

17. Maybe someday, we can ALL be dead to them!

:eyes:

[Coexist]

34. I see voting people....

[JanusAscending]

48. OK.... just killed my keyboard !!

:bounce: :spray: :rofl: :applause: GOOD ONE !!!

[FightingIrish]

19. I guess we can expect "massive retaliation"

[globalvillage]

This is really sad.

Sen Kerry has made a point every time he's questioned on it that Hillary would be a good Pres, but that he prefers Obama. He's been cautious, I think, not to say anything unkind about her. Even after she threw him under the bus.
Honestly, as a Kerry supporter, I can't see myself voting for her even if by some miracle she won the nomination. I would never vote for McCain of course, but I don't see how I could vote for Clinton either.

[Cha]

20. bush, clinton..what's

the dif? Just in the way they pander. The clintons and the bushes should get together after they're outta here and write a joint book on "How to stab friends in the back and turn people off."

[JTFrog]

60. Should get together? Ha! That books been being written for years now. n/t

[Cha]

70. Right...I only meant write

that one special book that culminates what LOSERS do to get that way.

[Barack_America]

21. How do I get on that list?

It seems rather prestigious!

[dana_b]

22. Sounds like the damn Sopranos or Corleones!

My God, spend that time worrying about getting people pumped up instead making a list of people who won't get Christmas cards this year. :eyes:

[Starbucks Anarchist]

25. Speaking of the Sopranos:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9BEPcJlz2wE

[dana_b]

29. omg.... it's almost too much to take.

thanks for the link but jeez, was that necessary?? do they really think that was funny? :puke:

[Coexist]

33. geez, warn a person will ya'

:-)

[Starbucks Anarchist]

35. To be fair, Hillary 4 U&Me was way worse.

[Coexist]

40. What? It has everything...

Asian supporters,
AA supporters,
White people that can't dance,
Wham-stype boppiness (can you say jitterbug... clap, clap!
and Airline commerical grade choreography!


It is totally gnarly, dude!

[Adelante]

61. Nothing beats Hillary 4 U&Me, true nt

[razors edge]

24. Just can't see myself

working on her plantation.

[karynnj]

26. How would Kerry even notice the difference?

The Clintons were awful to him starting nearly the day he lost. We all saw how they and there allies vilified him when he took a principled stand and spoke against a failed policy in Iraq in 2006. What bothered me about the Clinton position is that both put it in terms of politics - Kerry was speaking in terms of soldiers' lives and what the right thing to do was.

[ProSense]

28. What's with the Nixonian "enemies list"?

Kerry was on that one too.

[Coexist]

30. I guess there's a difference between

being a List Maker

and a list-maker, no?!

[karynnj]

39. If Reagan or GHWB had one, he was likely on that one too!

I guess you can tell a man by his enemies. What these Clinton supporters are ignoring is the number of times when Kerry has appeared as an Obama surrogate when he has blasted McCain's positions - then included HRC when he contrasts with Obama's position noting that it was a Democratic position. He also has said nice things of her when asked and that he will "work his heart out" for whoever the Democratic nominee is.

I just hope they are not vindictive enough to try to hamper his re-election.

[ProSense]

67. Wonder what she plans on doing with the list? n/t

[karynnj]

72. I guess it won't be to send Christmas cards to or for WH invites

or as a list of people who she needs to make peace with. I didn't believe it true in the 1990s, but there were allegations that the Clintons pulled FBI records on potential Republican opponents. http://www.cnn.com/ALLPOLITICS/1997/gen/resources/fbi.files/ As President, with the new powers that Bush gained could she add these people to that type of list? It bothers me that I can't rule it out of hand.

What I worry about is whether as President or not they could try to drive these people out of power. Kerry is likely too strong, but I wouldn't be surprised if others are pushed out.

[mudesi]

27. These kind of things are OBVIOUS

Just look at the way she has run her campaign since super Tuesday. Her words and actions have revealed everything. It's amazing that people can't deduce who and what the Clinton's are based on the very way they have run their campaign.

[dano81818]

31. they are very selfish people

bill's "triangulation" cost us control of congress in 94 to the republicans.

his presidency was BAD for democrats.

he only did what was good for HIM, in order to keep his poll numbers high enough to keep him from being impeached and convicted...

[BlueIdaho]

36. How can I get on

the Clinton's Shit List?

I want to be a Clinton Shit Lister!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[AllentownJake]

38. Well at least we know she picked up one thing

from her work on Nixon's impeachment.

[NJSecularist]

41. Hillary is beginning to emulate her child hero... Richard Nixon. n/t

[Elidor]

42. This reminds me: did the Clintons ever criticize Carville for calling Richardson 'Judas?'

There's been a remarkable pattern of people being unwilling to be perceived as crossing the Clintons. People are scared of her, and it shows. They never had that problem with Bill. Even when Hillary said "screw'em!" Bill was much more open to working with those who had opposing viewpoints. In Hillaryland, you are indeed either with her or against her, and just in case you aren't clear on that, she'll be happy to show you how it works. She takes no chances: she'd rather burn the bridge now than work on a rapprochement - unless you're a republican, in which case she'll kiss your everloving ass. And this all ties in with accounts I've read of her take-no-prisoners approach to health care during Bill's administration. Despite years spent cultivating her former political enemies, she still retains this bullheaded mentality that she will not be restrained by anyone. Her will mote it be. She will work with the GOP and simultaneously steamroll her own party. It's a more aggresive form of the disfunction that Lieberman displays.

I've imagined a political death-match between Hillary and Nixon, and by god: Nixon would faint away before her. Sure, he had an enemies list, but it tended to be people in the opposition. Hillary saves her greatest enmity for democrats. There is something to be said for someone who is so perfectly cast in iron, there is a place in the party for a hard taskmaster, but it doesn't compare well to a person who knows you catch more flies with honey than vinegar, someone who goes to great lengths to remain civil. The nastier she gets, the better he looks.

I've never actually said this before, and I'm very reluctant (for several reasons) to sound rah-rah, but:

Gobama.

[Coexist]

43. I know how you feel about

"Gobama"

I feel like I'm too old, or something.

The rest of your post - wonderful stuff.

[Elidor]

45. You're too kind

Thank you too much. :blush:

[Stephanie]

47. Wish I could recommend a post.

So everyone would read it. :thumbsup:

[Coexist]

66. maybe the poster can expand on it for their own OP

thats why I like kos, you can troll rate and rec each post in a diary.


However, there is not even 1/18th the amount of info there as here!

[davidpdx]

44. The Clinton's have borrowed Bush's post 9/11 theme

"You're either with us or against us"

[Stephanie]

46. "The world revolves around Hillary and Bill.They're willing to destroy anyone who gets in their way"

I guess we knew this, didn't we?

"This arrogance and vindictiveness of the Clintons is important to understand. It helps explain why Hillary won't get out of the race even though she can't win it. The world revolves around Hillary and Bill. They're willing to destroy anyone who gets in their way. And if the majority of the Democratic voters, the majority of the states, and the majority of the delegates get in their way, then they'll be on the top of the list. Right after John Kerry."

[johnnydrama]

51. don't forget Rev Wright

One day you're helping President Clinton get out of a major scandal by appearing at a photo op for him in his darkest day. The next day you're Unamerican.

That's two people/organizations they throw under the bus that helped him to stay in office.

[smiley_glad_hands]

52. Another reason why warrantless wiretaps are a bad idea: political hit lists. eom

[krkaufman]

55. What does political payback have to do with experience.

Panetta: “These are people that the Clintons gave an opportunity to serve,” said Mr. Panetta, speaking generally. “They helped give them the titles they now have, and made them a lot of money. I think the Clintons probably feel they are owed something.”

Hillary should be supported for President because of debts the former First Couple feel are owed them by former staffers? Sounds more like royal succession than merit.

[karynnj]

75. Not to mention - they ignore what all those people gave the Clintons

Objectively many supported the Clintons at least as well as the Clintons supported them

[krkaufman]

79. yes. from their service to defending him during his sex scandals

The Clintons have been more than repaid.

[karynnj]

81. In Kerry's case it was utter chutzpah to even suggest that he owed them anything:

When Bill Clinton ran, Kerry defended him in the primaries on his Vietnam avoidance of the draft - even though Kerry was closer to Tsongus, who he was friends with from the 1970s when Kerry gave Tsongus his voter information data for the district Kerry lost in 1972 and Tsongus won in 1974 and Kerrey, who was part of the group of Vietnam Vets in the Senate who Kerry was closest to. Read Kerry's words then:
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=132&topic_id=5197294
Kerry in the general election defended Clinton often on this - even though it risked some of his own support from veterans.

Had Kerry just done this, it would have been enough to put Bill Clinton in his debt.

Then when Bill Clinton got stuck on his promise to let gays into the military, Kerry (along with Clark) was one of the few people with military credentials who was willing to speak in favor of it - again risking his personal support.

Kerry defended HRC when her patriotism was attacked when she demanded an exit plan. (Kerry, Biden and others had been working longer, more consistently and less as a play to the cameras on this than HRC - but he was the first to stand behind her.)

In contrast, what real support did Bill Clinton give Kerry in return:
- He did one fund raiser in 1996 for Kerry that raised money - some of which Kerry, one of cleanest politicians in DC, returned because it was tainted. The Clintons did little otherwise, partially because as can be seen by Bill Clinton's autobiography they were friends with Bill Weld.

- In 2004, neither endorsed Kerry until he was the Defacto nominee - Bill Clinton told New York Magazine in late 2003, that the only stars in the Democratic party were HRC and Wes Clark.

Then in 2004, Bill Clinton did things where he could be in the spotlight - he spoke at the convention - about Kerry in Vietnam, Edwards (briefly) then about how great the Clinton years were and he spoke at a huge rally in Philadelpia, that Clinton supporters have spoken of as if he deserves a purple heart. As to campaigning for Kerry - Clinton was, as he was for Gore, an asset who was tricky to use. I bet that it was WJC who called the campaign rather than the campaign begging WJC to help. He has always wanted to be in the public eye. In addition, he campaigned about 5 or 6 weeks after his surgery. In PA, it involved walking a very short distance and giving 5 minutes of comments. A person I know very very well was walking 4 miles routinely within three weeks of open heart surgery - it was part of his rehabilitation program from a top hospital. He was back full time in a demanding job 6 weeks after surgery.

In fact, given the way it was handled, Kerry appearing ALONE might have been more useful. The cable stations switched away after Clinton's speech - not catching that Kerry got a tremendous reaction as well - that was seen by us CSPAN viewers. Kerry was getting huge crowds all over the swing states - breaking Clinton records. The Clintonophile media ignored that or discounted it by crediting the crowds to Clinton, Caroline Kennedy or Springstein. It's true the crowd may have been somewhat smaller without WJC, it would still have been huge and the candidate would have been the story.

Also, Clinton's speech was a very routine "Democratic party elder speaking of the Democratic nominee" - he did NOTHING that went beyond boiler plate - Kerry's name could have been replaced by any name. WJC did not even mention Kerry's long involvement with Youthbuild that was likely what WJC did vaguely speak of in his book as Kerry working for underprivileged youth, which WJC then described as something that there were no votes in. In front of intercity Philadelphia bringing this up and speaking of Kerry's extremely strong advocacy since the 1980s would have made some people see Kerry for who he was. http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=273&topic_id=148023&mesg_id=148029) Every Clinton speech for someone ends up about 60% plus about Clinton - except his extremely strong speech for Leiberman in the 2006 primary where he actually spoke about Leiberman.

The fact is that Kerry DID get the innercity vote everywhere and likely would have done every bit as good without that short Clinton event. Where Clinton could have helped was to have delayed his idiotic book say 6 months to let Kerry have more a chance to get airtime in July 2004. Or, he could have given Kerry credit for his many real accomplishments when WJC opted to write a 2 page discussion of whether he wanted Weld, who he clearly liked personally vs Kerry, who he credited as expert on the environment and technology. Very meager praise - that he likely looked at when Kerry was the defacto candidate.

Here is a broader expansion of what WJC did with his book and in the aftermath of Kerry's defeat. http://journals.democraticunderground.com/karynnj/14 His actions after Kerry lost, verge on cruel. They were determined that Kerry not be seen as a Democratic leader. The Clintons and all their surrogates rewrote the 2004 election - which was a narrow loss after a highminded campaign with none of the scandals that plaqued the Clinton runs. They created as truth the myth that Kerry did not fight back against the SBVT - ignoring that when Kerry spoke before the Firefighters he spoke directly against the SBVT saying the truth was that the Navy gave him his medal - this was the time period when Clinton was quoted by friends as saying that if Kerry spoke of Vietnam again, he might vote for Bush.

Clinton also spoke of Kerry losing because he was weak on defense, ignoring that it was likely for Clinton's sake that Kerry did not make MORE of an issue that he spent the 1990s trying as hard as he could to get people to see the dangers of non-state terrorism and global crime and pass the international laundering bill he wrote (included in the Patriot Act). Kerry went out of the Senate to a NYC DA to get action on BCCI and he wrote a book on what needed to be done - he was prescient on this - Bill Clinton was better than Bush, but chose to deal with Indonesian bankers with ties to BCCI and to pardon BCCI related Marc Rich rather than risk fighting these people. This was a selfish act as far as the party went - Kerry was right on terrorism and people like George Will later admitted it. That should have been taken as the Democratic position. That and the fact that the bipartisan ISG recommendations looked like what Kerry was recommending in 2004 and 2005. Clinton to further HRC's chances worked to undermine Kerry, who was one of the strongest Democrats on national security. Then with Kerry/Feingold - the Clintons and their allies went out of their way to make things miserable for him.

From my - admittedly biased position - Clinton never went out of his way to help Kerry. In 1996, he did only what a President would be expected to do for a 2 term Senator when the Senate ended up with 55 Republicans. In 2004, he didn't help him get the nomination and did nothing that an ex-President wouldn't routinely do - and he made NO effort to make a case for Kerry (as opposed to a generic Democrat). Kerry, on the other hand, has routinely put himself out tohelp the Clintons and others.

[Major Hogwash]

83. Bubba didn't have any military cred, he used Kerry like a paper towel.

Once he got into the White House, he dried his hands off and threw away the towel.

[karynnj]

84. Major, do you know how the veterans or the active military view the Clintons now?

I have seen HRC stuff that says that she is highly regarded by the military because of her Senate Armed Services Committee stuff - but I find it hard to believe. I've watched a couple of hearings and she seems to use her time giving 3 or 4 questions without taking a breath and then listens to the answers. Having seen other Senators do this on other committees vs Senators who ask a question, listen to the response, and then ask another question - it always seemed that the "filibuster your time" method got less information from the experts and could reflect someone who depended highly on the questions, probably written by staff.

The pictures of her with troops always seemed to be a brightly smiling at the cameras HRC surrounded by but not connected to the troops. Where Kerry's connect seemed heart felt, I just didn't see that with HRC.

[krkaufman]

85. Thanks for the background. n/t

[AtomicKitten]

56. An Enemies List? Game Over.

Holy shit, her campaign keeps getting freakier and freakier.

[Major Hogwash]

58. ". . the sense of entitlement . . " - that was her bumper sticker until lately.

Now, it's watch me duck sniper fire, throw bookbags, and act out in public to make it look like I DESERVED TO BE THE NOMINEE.

Never forget, her stand for NAFTA and the lies about that, as well.

[Skidmore]

63. That's some serious ugly in those people.

Same ugly as in the Bush family. Same sense of entitlement.

The nation will do better without either. Time to end the Bush-Clinton drama. Time for the people to write the script, not the media with its chosen cast.

[moondust]

64. Say goodbye, Billary.

Your brand of political enslavement has no place in the free world. Try to be good losers.

[dempartisan23]

65. hillary is a mean hate filled person

she just ripped all of us saying activists ruin the party. i am now an activist against this vile woman forever.

[Bensthename]

68. Hillary-GOP attacks vs. McCain-GOP attacks would be too much to stomach..

I don't think one legitimate issue would ever be brought up. Just a constant cat fight.

[rocktivity]

71. Vindictiveness. Sense of entitlement. Arrogance. Self-centeredness. Blind loyalty.

Right out of the Bush monarchy playbook, indeed.

:(
rocknation

[apocalypsehow]

73. "The Clinton campaign seems to spend a lot of time figuring out which disloyal Democrats to hate"

Just like her supporters here.

[Frank Booth]

74. I wish this deranged, dysfunctional, bitter couple would just leave us alone.

They can't seem to get it through their massive egos that they're just a small, increasingly insignifcant part of this Party.

[NJmaverick]

76. Sounds like Bush's either you are with us or against us, nonsense

[Scurrilous]

77. K & R

:thumbsup:

[D23MIURG23]

78. This is as bizzare as it is toxic.

No wonder the Clintons aren't making any friends. The end of Hillary's campaign will be an interesting meltdown to watch.

I hope the party isn't hurt to badly in the process...

[Piperay]

80. Their vindictiveness is going to

come back and bite them in the ass one day.

[Coexist]

82. yes it is.