I am embarrassed to even post this (racism in PA)

[Yael]

My sister and I were raised in the south. One of us ended up in Baltimore, the other Manhattan -- and now by fate or circumstance, we both live in eastern PA, the home state of our father.

In January of 2007, his mother followed him in passing. Funeral was in western PA and after the service, we had lunch with extended family -- most who still live in that area.

Sis and I have a cousin who is a Director of Player Personnel and has worked for various NFL teams. During the lunch, the conversation turned to him being interviewed by the Pittsburgh Steelers, only to have the job given to "a blackie" with agreement from several others about that "being the way".

I horked iced tea straight out of my nose and she dropped her fork. Literally. My mom just buried her head in her plate and tried to pretend it didn't happen. Fortunately, later we found out that she was as shocked at this as we.

While I sat in stunned silence (and pain), sis looked over at them and demanded, "what did you just say"?

Several of them went on and on about how we just didn't understand what "affirmative action" did to "them".

Un-fucking-believable.

They are (to a one) in their 60s and 70s.

I get angry about the racial stereotypes in PA, but my own fucking (extended) family seems to be right in the middle of it.

</venting>

[Cant trust em]

1. Good luck, man

Don't know what to say about that.

[NC_Nurse]

2. Ouch.

It's always bizarre to have someone blurt out something so fucked up in casual conversation.
It's hard to know how to respond without making a war out of it. Yikes.

[Yael]

15. Thanks NC_Nurse

I was geared up for it. Just glad that my sister responded instead of me. I have no idea even today what I would have said in response to that.

[MADem]

3. There are a shitload of old racists (of all colors and persuasions) who are

"of a certain age." There are white people alive who resent that "integration" ever happened, there are black people alive who resent poor treatment of the past and continued denial of economic parity and opportunity, there are Americans of all shades who still, and till the day they die will, hate the "Fucking Japs/Nips" from their own experiences in WW2, and Japanese Americans who resent the fact that they were interned, and harbor an understandable prejudice against mostly white America for that reason.

There are Irish who hate Italians, Italians who return the favor, Turks who hate Greeks, the beat goes on.

Lots of people are racists. Lots of people are prejudiced.

[woolldog]

4. how is that racist?

"there are black people alive who resent poor treatment of the past and continued denial of economic parity and opportunity"

how is that racist? And why are you drawing an equivalence between resenting racist treatment and racist treatment?

[MADem]

6. They assume every white person has it in for them, absent empirical evidence thereof.

THAT's how it's racist.

Anytime anyone does that stereotyping, it's racist.

[woolldog]

9. aren't you doing the exact same stereotyping right now

that you say is racist?

[MADem]

11. No. Go back and read what I wrote, and put it in context. You seem to assume

that only white people can be racists, I see.

[jenmito]

13. Only the majority can be racist. Minorities react to the majority's racism. That's not the same

as being racist.

[MADem]

20. Bullshit. "Minorities" CAN be racist. And they are.

And they're as idiotic and broad-brushed as the "majorities" for doing so. Two wrongs never make a right, except in Panderland.

Really, under your moronic "rule of racism," Asians, who are a minority, can never be "racist" against blacks, or hispanics, never mind whites. What, it's all just a silly misunderstanding when Mister Chang uses the "n" word or calls Mister Rodrigues a "taco munching effer?"

:eyes:


How patently ABSURD.

[jenmito]

41. Nope. They're not racist. They're prejudiced and ignorant. Minorities aren't racist to majorities

since they're the oppressed ones. The Black people were brought here and have justified resentmet. They may take it out on people who didn't do anything directly to them, but they were never in a position of superiority to white people.

I'm talking only about minority vs. majority here.

[MADem]

47. Ask for a thesaurus and a dictionary at your next major gift-giving holiday.

You don't get to make the rules, or invent new definitions for words to suit your half-baked theories. And that one you're shopping about ONLY minorty v. majority is frankly idiotic.

What's your context? Are we talking about the WORLD? America? A region? A neighborhood?

Never mind--you are in way over your head. You're making no sense whatsoever, you are showing your OWN prejudices, and you really ought to stop digging.

[jenmito]

59. You have no idea. I have Black, White, Asian, and Indian all in my immediate family

(married to me, my brothers, and sister). Racism is something we're all very familiar with. The MAJORITY, WHITE (caucasian) people, who OWNED Black people, killed Native Americans, and took control of this country, are the ones who could be racists, thinking they are (still) the superior race. Black people are justifiably resentful of those who owned them and their relatives. I'm talking Black vs. White since that's what the OP seemed to be about.

[Name removed]

63. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[jenmito]

75. Ah-but you were the one who ASSumed I'm in way over my head and may be prejudiced...

which is not the case at ALL.

If I was prejudiced, as you implied, I wouldn't have married someone out of my race nor would I love my in-laws and nieces and nephews, all of whom are of mixed races. I've experienced racism first hand.

Minorities RESPOND to racism. They're not racists.

[MADem]

81. You ARE prejudiced. You were the one who said only white people can be racists.

That was a false assumption on your part. Blatantly untrue.

Minorities are racists, too. Gee, what "majority" were the below examples "responding to," pray tell?

Here, read, learn, and stop making absurd and inaccurate presumptions:

http://www.latimes.com/news/printedition/opinion/la-op-hernandez7jan07,1,414328.story?coll=la-news-comment

THE ACRIMONIOUS relationship between Latinos and African Americans in Los Angeles is growing hard to ignore. Although last weekend's black-versus-Latino race riot at Chino state prison is unfortunately not an aberration, the Dec. 15 murder in the Harbor Gateway neighborhood of Cheryl Green, a 14-year-old African American, allegedly by members of a Latino gang, was shocking.

Yet there was nothing really new about it. Rather, the murder was a manifestation of an increasingly common trend: Latino ethnic cleansing of African Americans from multiracial neighborhoods. Just last August, federal prosecutors convicted four Latino gang members of engaging in a six-year conspiracy to assault and murder African Americans in Highland Park. During the trial, prosecutors demonstrated that African American residents (with no gang ties at all) were being terrorized in an effort to force them out of a neighborhood now perceived as Latino.

http://www.wnbc.com/news/9327857/detail.html
MASSAPEQUA, N.Y. -- A white woman said she was in shock after a black man threw a 10-inch chunk of concrete at her sport utility vehicle in what police were labeling a hate crime.

Kim McCandless, of West Islip, was driving to the Sunrise Mall in Massapequa on Monday with her two daughters, a niece and a nephew, all between 7 months and 4 years old, when the concrete struck her windshield. No one was injured.....Carl Graves, of Amityville, threw the concrete at the SUV because the driver was white, Nassau County police Detective Lt. Karl Schoepp said. Graves and two friends were in the mall for a couple of hours Monday morning and were upset that the arcade and the movie theater were closed, Schoepp said.

He said Graves, 20, told police "the mall had become too white."


http://www.tabunka.org/newsletter/black_racism.html

In poor neighborhoods across this country Asians endure daily racial hatred just as I did. Because of their language deficiencies, their small size, their fear of violent confrontations, they endure in silence. Unlike me, many of them will never depart for a new life in a beautiful place far, far away. So each day they grow more bitter against a group that much of America refuses to acknowledge to be capable of racism: African Americans. ... At San Francisco’s Hunter’s Point public housing complex, for instance, low-income Southeast Asian residents, who are in the minority, have consistently encountered racial harassment from their black neighbors. Racial slurs, physical threats, violence, and destruction of property have festered for years. Philip Nguyen of the Southeast Asian Community Center, who has worked on the case for years, notes that there are no economic differences between the Asian and black families in the complex. The Asians, he says, are very quiet and have made every effort to befriend the black residents, yet serious friction has persisted for ten years.

http://www.nytimes.com/2007/05/26/nyregion/26bias.html?_r=1&oref=slogin

According to the Queens district attorney, Richard A. Brown, the teenager, Umair Ahmed, 17, walked up to the Sikh, Vacher Harpal, in a hallway at Newtown High School in Elmhurst shortly after noon on Thursday and said, “I have to cut your hair.” Mr. Ahmed was holding a pair of scissors, Mr. Brown said.

Vacher replied: “For what? It is against my religion,” according to Mr. Brown. Mr. Ahmed, who is of Pakistani descent, then displayed a ring inscribed with Arabic words, and said: “This ring is Allah. If you don’t let me cut your hair, I will punch you with this ring,” Mr. Brown said.

Mr. Ahmed then forced Vacher into a boys’ bathroom, and Vacher began crying as he removed his turban, begging Mr. Ahmed not to cut his waist-length hair, which, in accordance with the Sikh religion, had never been cut, Mr. Brown said.

But Mr. Ahmed cut Vacher’s hair to the neckline, then threw the hair into a toilet and onto the floor, Mr. Brown said. One student, who was not charged, stood at the bathroom door and acted as a lookout, the police said. Another student, a friend of Vacher’s, saw the attack, they said. The police said a teacher’s aide notified a school safety officer after being alerted by a student.

See? Idiot racists come in ALL COLORS. All ethnicities. All religions. Skin color is not an "inoculation" against racism. And anyone who thinks that is playing a few cards short of a full deck.

[jenmito]

82. No I'm not. I stand by what I said. Speaking of white vs. black, only white people can be racists.

Black people can have anger towards white people. They can be prejudiced towards them (prejudging them due to generalizations and preconceptions based on past behavior) and be hostile towards them for the same reasons, but not racist. Spin it any way you want. Black people didn't bring WHITE people to this country against their will and legally treat them as property. Therefore, you can't compare dislike of one group towards another the same way as you can the other way around.

IDIOTS come in all colors. Racists don't. Deal with it. Just like BLACK people have for generations.

[Name removed]

83. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[jenmito]

84. "...and, FWIW, all racists ARE idiots." OF COURSE they are. But not all idiots are racists.

You don't seem to understand the difference between prejudice/ignorance and racism. You may not be a racist, but...let's just say-YOUR ignorance knows no bounds. But like I said-all idiots aren't racists. :hi:

[MADem]

85. So you have to be "intelligent" or "informed" to be racist? That seems counterintuitive to me.

Racists ARE prejudiced. Racists ARE ignorant. And here you are, saying that prejudiced, ignorant people aren't racists.

Please. Morons can be racists, and they often are. Stupid people can be racists. Smart people can be racists.

I think you need to check your own high-handed mirror before you start calling people "ignorant" there. Take a good hard look.

:hi: indeed.....

[jenmito]

86. Try reading my first sentence and understanding it this time, as I said just the opposite.

:hi: You have big comprehension problems.

[MADem]

90. I did read your first sentence, and you're the one with the difficulty.

You're also in profound denial about what racism is. There's where you "comprehension problems" lie.

[jenmito]

92. Where'd you get this conclusion: "So you have to be "intelligent" or "informed" to be racist?"

:shrug:

[MADem]

94. That was your conclusion, based on your post 84 comments.

Your assertion that black people can't be racist is flat-out insane.

[jenmito]

104. Huh? Then your comprehension leaves a lot to be desired as I said NOTHING like that.

And the comment you consider "flat-out insane" has NOTHING to do with your conclusion. :shrug:

[MADem]

107. Let's walk it all the way back, shall we?

Your words:

jenmito (1000+ posts) Wed Apr-02-08 09:22 PM
Response to Reply #20
41. Nope. They're not racist. They're prejudiced and ignorant. Minorities aren't racist to majorities
since they're the oppressed ones. The Black people were brought here and have justified resentmet. They may take it out on people who didn't do anything directly to them, but they were never in a position of superiority to white people.

I'm talking only about minority vs. majority here.

I rest my case.

[jenmito]

112. Um, no. I asked how you got your conclusion that you have to be "intelligent" or "informed" to be

racist from my post you were responding to. You haven't answered that in any way that makes sense.

[MADem]

119. You aver that there's a difference between prejudice/ignorance and racism.

The bottom line is, if you are ignorant and prejudiced, you ARE a racist. Then you claim that all idiots aren't racists. In which case, what's left, using the process of elimination? Intelligent and informed people.

The bottom line is this--anyone can be racist. Stupid, smart, white, black, young, old, urban, rural. ANYONE.

Look, you're the one who cluelessly insisted that MINORITIES can't be racist. Then you claim that ignorant and prejudiced people aren't, in fact, racists--when they are. Stupidity is NOT a bar to the condition.

You lit this bullshit off with...well, a BULLSHIT assertion. All the word games in the world aren't going to paper over your false assertion--which is the point you're desperately trying to run away from-- that "minorities" cannot be racists.

-----------------------------------------------------

jenmito (1000+ posts) Fri Apr-04-08 12:10 PM
Response to Reply #83
84. "...and, FWIW, all racists ARE idiots." OF COURSE they are. But not all idiots are racists.
Edited on Fri Apr-04-08 12:11 PM by jenmito
You don't seem to understand the difference between prejudice/ignorance and racism. You may not be a racist, but...let's just say-YOUR ignorance knows no bounds. But like I said-all idiots aren't racists.

[jenmito]

120. Wrong. Being ignorant and prejudiced does NOT equate to being a racist.

And your "logic" as to how you came to the conclusion that I feel all racists are intelligent and informed is RIDICULOUS! :rofl: You really have no ability to comprehend anything. Your conclusions that you get from what I said make no sense at all. Saying "all idiots aren't racists" does NOT mean that "all racists are intelligent and informed." You're giving me a good laugh, though!

Keep going with this though. I'm not going to stop pointing out your ridiculous "conclusions." :hi:

[MADem]

122. Yes, it does. The person may be ignorantly racist, but they're still racist.

STUPIDITY or innate prejudice does not excuse or mitigate the condition--you might want to file that key factoid away for future reference.

You're the genius who insists that 'minorites can't be racist,' remember? And you've got the gall to talk about "ridiculous conclusions?' :hi:


That is deserving of a :rofl:

[jenmito]

124. No, it doesn't. They're NOT the same thing. I'll go back and forth with you on this all the way to

the election and beyond if you want. I'm not going to stop responding to your nonsense. :hi:

[MADem]

125. Yes, they are. And minorities CAN be racist.

:hi:

[jenmito]

127. No, they're not. And no they can't.

Infinity. :hi:

[MADem]

129. Infinity, indeed. Infinite ignorance. nt

[jenmito]

132. Yup-that's you!

Made ya look! :D

[ekwhite]

99. Not all racists are idiots. That is what makes them so dangerous. N/T

[jenmito]

105. True. But I was just agreeing with that poster to take that issue "off the table" yet she STILL

somehow came up with the opposite conclusion. :shrug:

[MADem]

108. My conclusion was based on your post forty one. Where you made your views clear.

You do a lot of assuming, I notice.

[jenmito]

114. You still don't UNDERSTAND my views which was made clear by your responses to my

posts.

[MADem]

118. Look, your words. Not mine--yours. They're plain as day, and they

shop an erroneous assertion.

[jenmito]

121. You're laughable with the conclusions you draw from things I say!

It's like if I said, "all squares are rectangles," what YOU would conclude from that is, "all rectangles must be squares." :rofl:

[MADem]

123. No--"minorities can't be racist" is laughable. And a stupid conclusion, too. NT

[jenmito]

128. I wish people would take the time to read your ridiculous inferences from my statements.

They're BEYOND ridiculous! :rofl:

[MADem]

130. Not inferences--those are YOUR words, And now you're backing away from them.

Whatever.

[jenmito]

131. I'm backing away from NOTHING. You still don't UNDERSTAND my words with your faulty

"conclusions." :rofl:

[MADem]

134. Oh yes I do. You said minorities can't be racists. And that would be amusing, except it's dumb. NT

[jenmito]

135. Oh no you don't since you think I said you have to be "intelligent" or "informed" to be racist.

That's what you inferred from something I said, which you got TOTALLY wrong. :rofl:

[MADem]

136. No, you actually can be a stupid racist too. RIF, there Skippy! NT

[jenmito]

137. And I didn't say otherwise! CIF, too, Bif!

[auburnblu]

109. You are "enlightended"

If let's say in a major U.S. city, the city council is 80% African-American and the African-American members get together and say, only African-Americans should be considered for certain leaderships job openings in the city. If an Asian, White, r Latino tries to apply, nope. Then the council influences hiring in that way, then that is racist. To say simply becase of someone's skin tone that they can't be racist is laughable.

If a white guy who is responsible for hiring for a job looks at a resume and says Asian name, not interested solely based on that, that is racist. If an African-American guy is responsible for hiring for a job looks at a resume and says Asian name, not interested solely based on that, then get ready, shock of shocks, is also being racist.

This type of nonsense is why this country struggles to have a meaningful dialouge on race.

[jenmito]

115. No-those are NOT examples of racism...

they're examples of discrimination.

[auburnblu]

140. per dictionary dot com

rac·ism Audio Help (rā'sĭz'əm) Pronunciation Key
n.
The belief that race accounts for differences in human character or ability and that a particular race is superior to others.

Discrimination or prejudice based on race.


Thus it appears my example meets the definition. Your belief "if someone is of a certain demographic group they are incapable of racism" is sadly held by way too many. You seem to have no desire to assume that we're all the same save for skin color. Funny how your "this group can't possibly be racist" shows only one thing that you yourself are racist based on the definition. Unbelievable.

I'll take the racism we're fighting now over what we had 50 years ago any day. Only hope is we continue to move towards a color blind society.

[Freedom Train]

113. Is it April 1st all over again?

"Only white people can be racists"? That has by far got to be the stupidest thing I've heard all year; and in this primary season, believe me, I've heard a lot. You are not really deserving of anything more being added, so I'll simply say: Deal with it.

[jenmito]

116. Nope. It's April 6th.

And yes, when you're talking about white vs. black, only the MAJORITY can be racist towards the minority-not the other way around. Deal with it.

[DemVet]

141. "Speaking of white vs. black, only white people can be racists"

That's the most retarded thing I've read on this board in a LONG time.

[NDambi]

68. jen, you're wasting your time and intelligence on MADem...nothing there but bitterness..save

yourself..move along..or you will be caught in a perpetual circle jerk of I am right, I am right, I want to argue, I want to argue..my candidate is losing..so I'm stuck in angry mode.

Save yourself.

[Name removed]

71. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[NDambi]

72. Love You...Muuuuuuuahhh... ha ha

[jenmito]

76. True, NDambi...

but I can't help myself. :D

[FlyingTiger]

32. Please, please tell me you're just not very good at telling jokes.

Please.

[jenmito]

38. I'm GREAT at telling jokes. This isn't a joke.

[billyoc]

61. What about apartheid? Were the white South Africans not racists?

They were the minority.

[BzaDem]

87. Shhhh. Stop using facts.

[ekwhite]

100. Yes, but they had the power.

As Mao said, "all power emanates from the barrel of a gun."

[Freedom Train]

111. What about the minority of white farmers in Zimbabwe?

Being run off their land and beaten by Mugabe henchmen because they were white? They had the power too? But no, poor Mugabe and ZANU-PF are not racist at all, right?

[ekwhite]

143. They might be in that case

It goes back to the definition that bigotry + power = racism. But that begs the difference between inter-ethnic hatred and violence, and racism. I suppose that if they felt the white farmers were an inferior of evil 'race,' then it would be racism. If they wanted the land and didn't care who they had to kill to get it, that is a different kind of evil.

This gets us into the slippery slope of what is 'racism,' and what is 'race' to begin with. The idea of race is an European invention, so-called Scientific Racism that was heavily relied on, especially in the 19th century, as a justification for exploiting militarily inferior countries. I would argue that to be a racist, you have to believe in the existence of races to begin with. Your definition of racism is most likely different, as is the definition used by the next person down the line. The whole subject is complex and emotionally charged.

One thing we should all be able to agree on is that bigotry is wrong. As FrenchieCat's signature says - "There is only one race - Human."

[McHatin]

138. That is false

It is thoughts such as these which will always keep us in the stone age of race relations, seriously. This is a commonly accepted theory that does much more damage to race relations than the KKK.

If you don't call all discrimination based on race, regardless of who is doing it, racism, you are encouraging its survival. But let us look at this theory more closely.

There are plenty of places where "minorities" in the country are actually a majority, just on more local levels. More than that, there are many places where they hold the political power as well and will use it quite willingly to help out their own race. Why do you think it is that since Martin Luther King race relations have not improved much? It's because shit like this, which King would have never agreed with, has come into vogue among certain minority leaders and organizations.

Affirmative Action, for example, has done little to nothing to improve the condition of African Americans, look at the statistics today. But what has it done to race relations? Just that one issue has hurt race relations much more than all the racist groups out there combined. It is institutional racism promoted by the government and it has created a lot of resentment.

What it really comes down to, though, is this. Many minorities want to ignore the racism that exists in their own ranks, so they say they can't be racist, just bigoted. I have NEVER heard of the problem of black bigotry or hispanic bigotry etc. being discussed. This is surprising, considering they are just as bigoted as any other group. The sad reality is that some minority leaders are trying to improve race relations while letting bigotry and racism in their own ranks grow and fester. I honestly think some of them are scared to contemplate a world without race or racism, and don't wish to see it brought about. Race has become such a perceived source of identity, especially among minorities, that destroying race as a myth would be tantamount to attacking a part of who they are.

[woolldog]

22. No, but I know what you're doing.

Yeah anyone can be prejudiced or a bigot. But you're trying to downplay (or excuse) the perniciousness of white racism by saying "hey, every race can be racist!"

White racism is much more potent than, for example, Japanese resentment/prejudice simply because whites make up so much of the population. It is possible to go through life as a white man and not ever be really affected by racism from other groups, simply based on numbers and population patterns. Not so as a minority.

So spare me your "every race has bigots!" bullshit.

[MADem]

33. What a load of BULLSHIT. I know what YOU'RE trying to do, and it's pretty fucking ugly.

You're a bit pissed that I ripped the scab off of your own prejudices, so you're trying to suggest, in veiled fashion, that I am engaging in subtle racism because I don't agree with this absurd thesis.

Already you're shifting the argument, trying to preserve that lame point. No longer is this all about white racism, it's now about the "more POTENT" white racism.

Tell that to the Korean guy who gets his ass kicked by a crew of people who are "other than white."

Tell that to the Jew in the same boat.

I wager that the lonely Asian getting the shit kicked out of him by ten or twelve (Insert Your Favority "Minority Group" here) isn't worrying about those "more potent" white racists you're carping about. He is worried about the (Insert Your Favorite "Minority Group" here) who are kicking the shit out of him.

Do you live in a theoretical world? I can't imagine how else, if you actually interacted with, and lived amongst, real people of all races, ethnicities and hues, you could support such an absurd theory.

The one shopping the bullshit, here, is YOU. Every race DOES have bigots. Even if you don't care to believe that.

[woolldog]

36. Can you read?

I said every race has bigots. What I object to is your attempt to change the focus of the OP and excuse the racists in the OP with some banal truism that every race has bigots.

[MADem]

40. I can read. You're having trouble with it. That's not my problem, it's yours. NT

[woolldog]

42. If you could read

then you wouldn't have written this: "Every race DOES have bigots. Even if you don't care to believe that."--MADem

When I had already written this: "Yeah anyone can be prejudiced or a bigot."--woolldog

Maybe take a remedial reading course?

[MADem]

44. If you agreed with my point, why did you crawl up my ass?

Because you DIDN'T agree with my point.

Having fun, are you? Glad you're so easily amused.

[woolldog]

46. I agree with your point, but I think your point misses the point.

And that was my point. :rofl:

[MADem]

49. My point wasn't trying to make a point. My point was stating a reality, nothing more, nothing less.

[woolldog]

52. whether your point was trying to make a point or not, it is still a point,

as you yourself admit when you call it a "point."

And it misses the point.

[MADem]

64. No, it IS the point. Racism isn't the domain of any particular race.

Even though this thread is based on the false premise that only whites (which later morphed to "only the majority") can be racist.

Bottom line: that's bullshit. And that IS the point.

So much for the Hope/Change/Postracial society.

[woolldog]

65. Dumb

This thread isn't based on that premise at all. It's based on the OP's personal experience, which, for some reason, makes you uncomfortable and eager to change the subject. Nice try. :hi:

[MADem]

66. Change the subject? Are you dull of comprehension?

The OP said he had racist relatives. In short, my response was Yep, there ARE racists in this world, of all stripes and hues.

This reality does not make me "uncomfortable" at all. I have seen it, experienced it, am WELL aware of it.

It's regrettable, but it is what it is.

Projecting, are you?

:hi:

[woolldog]

69. then stop trying to change the subject

the OP is entitled to share her experiences w/o you attempting to marginalize them. good day, sir

[MADem]

70. My commentary was not "marginalization." Only someone with a major case of

OCD, unable to discuss any point at all with nuance or in larger context, would say such a thing. My points were immediately tangential to the discussion; in fact, they served, in part, to remove the blame/shame/stigma that the OP felt because the racists were distant relatives.

Good day to you too. You might think about getting some help for that condition.

[knixphan]

79. right on, woolldog

[Moochy]

95. Bigots And Racists

A great Post

That thing you are arguing with wont ever get it though.

Racism requires power, otherwise its just a bigot with a plan.

[ekwhite]

98. This is an argument about definitions

So I thought I would post the Wikipedia entry here.

From what I read, racism, as defined by Woolldog and Jenmito would be the sociological definition of a "system of group privilege" given in the Wikipedia article. It probably also encompasses Institutional Racism and Academic Racism.

MADem's definition, IMHO, is closer to what would be called bigotry in a sociological definition, because blacks don't have the institutions to implement their bigotry.

As Moochy says, racism requires power - bigotry does not.

The problem with the "only white racism is racism" definition is, where does it leave actions such as the reported ethnic cleansing of some neighborhoods by gangs such as MS-13, who are forcing blacks out of neighborhoods, and even killing those who stay? This is bigotry plus power, but it is Latino vs. Black instead of White vs. Black. White racism, of course, plays a part in this because of the blind eye turned upon what is happening by the LAPD.

Any thoughts on this? Be kind please.

[Zhade]

96. You just created a racist stereotype.

"They assume"

By your own post, you're a racist.

[Yael]

16. It is shocking in this day and age

to be confronted with this from people you "know" (even though not that well).

[MADem]

23. Unfortunately, there are young ones out there, too. Of all colors of the rainbow.

Some people just feel comforted by sticking it, either verbally or otherwise, to people who aren't in their same "group."

And when resources get scarcer, this situation is reawakened. I expect if this recession turns into a full bore depression, it's going to get worse.

[Yael]

26. Is it me?

I seriously don't get it.

Sometimes I wonder if people who are truly close to me harbor feelings or stereotypes against asians or jews or blacks -- and have just never voiced it.

[MADem]

35. Like I said--start taking away resources, and watch it bubble up.

Or let one group be seen as expoiting another, and there ya have it.

It happens. It's not nice, but it happens.

[populistdriven]

34. imagine a world where old racists never die

[MADem]

73. That would be horrific. NT

[SwampG8r]

102. spoken

with the firm grasp of the obvious you are known for:sarcasm:

[Bucky]

5. "a blackie"? I live in Texas and I don't think I've ever heard that one.

Are you sure they weren't talking about a coal miner?

[Yael]

17. I graduated from HS in Georgia in the mid 80s and went to a southern college for undergrad

and I had never heard it in my life before then.

[ekwhite]

101. It's a Pennsylvania term

I heard it plenty of times when I lived there. By the way, there was a thriving Klan in PA in the 90's. I don't know if it is still thriving there.

[Muttocracy]

7. Don't be embarrassed - it's not your fault.

Obama's comments about an older generation making comments that make one cringe, and your post, certainly resonate with me. I grew up in the south though I've spent my whole adult life in the north. My parents were and are quite racist - primarily in dumb-stereotypes or anti-affirmative action comments. Both sexist too, actually. Recently an older out-of-state colleague made some really sexist statements without a clue at a meeting (along the lines of part-time-secretary-women won't work as hard) - when the rest of us in the organization are women, most of whom did or do work part-time.

I hope these things get better over time.

[NeedleCast]

8. It's everywhere

No need to feel shame for other people's ignorance. Whether it's PA or TX or NY or CA, racism exists there.

[Tatiana]

10. This is exactly what Obama was addressing in his speech on race.

People who hold these (sometimes surprising) views are in our own families, regardless of what race/ethnicity we are. Do we just throw them out? No. We still love them, and in the spirit of love and caring, try to influence them through our own examples.

Those of earlier generations had different experiences than our own and lived in different times. That is not to excuse or condone prejudice or discrimination. It is just to explain how even in this day and age, older Americans really seem to be out of step with the rest of us.

[Yael]

18. Tatiana, you are the best

:hug:

This just gnaws at me like you have no idea. Thanks for the comments.

[Tatiana]

53. I know. But prejudice and racism exists and I, for one, am glad that we can finally take

a cold, hard look at its ugliness in a way that we haven't in a long time.

I never met my paternal grandmother until I was almost 6 years of age. She was upset with my father for marrying a black woman. From the time that I met her until she died, I loved her. That didn't mean I loved everything about her, or some of her viewpoints on race (I'm sure somewhere in her background there was African ancestry). That is why I sympathized so much when Obama talked about his grandmother holding prejudiced views toward African Americans. My own grandmother did as well. And it hurts and gnaws at you, the fact that someone you love can be so ignorant. But hating them is not the answer. Loving them (and there is such a thing as loving correction) is.

I'll never forget what my grandmother said, a few months before she passed on. My mother, the same woman she didn't like because of her race, went with me to visit her in the assisted living facility where she resided. My mom (who had separated from my father) would bring her food and other necessities, when her own children wouldn't take the time. That day, after we had chatted for a bit, my mom leaned over to hug "abuelita," as we called her, and she gripped my mom's hand for a very long time. "Maybe I was wrong about you. Things were different back then. You raised your girls the right way."

She didn't come out and say "I'm sorry for being racist." But, I knew that's what she meant.

Don't give up hope :hug:

[Yael]

57. How heartwarming!

Thanks for sharing that and balancing out my negativity.

[jgraz]

12. Right there with ya

My extended family is old-school Sicilian. Most of the older generation are incapable of using anything but racial epithets when talking about non-Italians.

You should have seen their heads explode when we hosted a family reunion and they all got a look at my prom picture -- with my bi-racial girlfriend. I had to sit through several serious talks about "the way things are" from my relatives. :eyes:

[Yael]

19. Damn mick

:P

You would think my people would have a clue. Dad's side of the family is Jewish.

[uponit7771]

14. I don't think many know that the NFL before the Runny(sp) Rule that the was going to be sued ...

..to death by the likes of Cochran etc. because of the number of black head coaches vs. the number of players that have applied or been mentored.

The NCAA is even worse to blacks than the NFL was, out of 204 NCAA DIV 1 Schools there's a grand total (before Cochrans threats) of 3 black coaches.

I think when people look at those issues and the facts surrounding them I can see people looking at the Runny(sp) Rule a lot more openly.

[Yael]

21. You are assuming that these people are football fans of any stripe

I would be surprised if any of them even watched a game in the span of a decade.

Cousin was working for the Saints when he went for the job -- because his family wanted to move back north closer to his wife's family.

Sorry, but <whatever> rule had nothing to do with this one. Pure unadulterated racism.

[uponit7771]

27. wow, I never thought of that ...not all people working for the NFL would be Football fans...

...kinda puts a new spin on why some teams are constantly on the losing side even with free agency.

[Yael]

29. He = late 30s, they (relatives) = 60s and 70s

They were talking about him moving (but not getting the job), not the QBs completion ratio.

Edit to add -- In case I lead to a wrong impression, he wasn't there. I am sure he would have been as unglued as we were if he was. I have spoken to him since then, but never told him and I don't believe my sister has either.

[OzarkDem]

24. Thank the GOP and their hatemongers

They've worked hard since the Reagan years to make people feel comfortable expressing their bigotry.

[Yael]

28. This is sadly true.

I have no idea what political stripe they are from. I have a feeling that I don't WANT to know.

[Mimosa]

77. No thanks, Ozark Dem

OzarkDem, I grew up and have lived in the South and have spent time up North. My grandmother was a liberal sweetnatured non-racist liberal Republican, my grandfather a typical Southern Democrat.In the old days in the South the Democratic party was typically the segregationist party. Of course there were some exceptions.

My sister -who has always been a feminist Democrat- is married into a family of staunch Yellow Dog Dems. At the big Christmas bash I mentioned how much i liked obama and supported him. I found myself in a very uncomfortable position to say the least. Sometimes racism comes out of Democrats, a la Geraldine Ferraro. Republicans didn't 'teach' it, and to be fair few encourage it. Racism is a curse of the human condition.

[loyalsister]

78. That's way too easy

and simply not true. It's a matter of majority an privilege. If you get inside politics and see challenges to white male power, you will discover otherwise.

"White social status" is exchanged for a certain amount of loyalty.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/White_privilege

I have been in a house chamber and heard democrats sit and laugh at Democratic African American representatives during their floor speeches. I have seen legislation endorsing the confederate flag sponsored by Democrats. These were not just the democrats who were supposed to be Reagan democrats economically. They reflected a culture and were not afraid or ashamed to endorse bigotry.

[mckeown1128]

25. assholes problobly think any time an african american gets

a job it's because they are black.. racists use racism to make up for their own short commings... "I didn't get the job... so it must be because of affirmative action"... I hate racists... I had a friend(kind of) once tell me that it was ok that he was racist... because that is "just how he was raised." fyi I grew up in Louisiana.

[Yael]

30. That was the implication

Heaven forbid he wasn't the best person for the job.

[Berry Cool]

37. I had a friend (white) who said that every time she looks at an African American in a job

she wonders whether they got there through affirmative action. I asked her "How would you feel if people looked at you and assumed you might have gotten your job through affirmative action?"

Some white people just don't understand that even by assuming that some nonwhite person might have received some advantage that has put them where they are today, it's racist thinking.

[Condem]

31. Hey, Yael.

Where are you in Eastern PA? I live in Iowa now but I grew up in Bucks County.

[globalvillage]

39. If it helps

I called elderly Dems in Coraopolis (Pittsburgh) today, and they were 6-1 for Obama. I had a great time, and they were so informed, it was a little shocking.

Old folks for Obama! Yay!

[zulchzulu]

43. There are plenty of racists...usually hard-core Repuglicans

I've run into people in the 60's and 70's who will always be racists...they aren't actually bad people for the most part, but they easily can slip into draconian racist remarks on a whim...usually about political leaders.

It's a shame, but as crass as it sounds, they won't be around that much longer.

[bullwinkle428]

45. For someone that's held high-level positions in the NFL, does he

truly believe that it was affirmative action that put TWO black coaches head-to-head in the Super Bowl last year??? How could someone possess such an ignorant attitude with that kind of life experience? It boggles the mind!

[Yael]

48. He wasn't there

and as far as I know, doesn't know about it. He is a few years younger than I, mid-30s. These people are in their 60s and 70s.

[bullwinkle428]

50. "So can the Obama campaign count on your vote this April 22nd?"

:eyes: (directed at your cousin)

[Yael]

58. Scroll up one post

:P

[UALRBSofL]

51. Yael the time I spent in the DC area I met a lot of people that lived in eastern PA

And I never thought of them as racists. I think most of them were progressive.

[Yael]

55. Heya UALRBSofL

I hear ya. I haven't seen this anywhere I have ever lived. This was western PA, so am not as familiar in that area.

[PA Democrat]

74. I am ashamed to say that it's alive and well in western PA.

My son told me that there are quite a few kids in his school who make openly racist remarks. Our school district is about 99.9% white and about 80% Republican. It's especially sickening to hear it coming out of the mouths of young people.

[rainbow4321]

54. Don't be too embarrassed...

We all have those moments.
My teen daughter had told our neighbor that I was at our Dem county convention this weekend and she noticed there was a rather uncomfortable silence between them. He then told her that even if SATAN was running as a republican, he would still vote repub. No paraphrasing there, he really said Satan. My teen was horrified as she relayed the conversation to me. This was coming from an adult who she has grown to respect and confide in over the past several years.

He went on to say "well, you know, once people start believing a certain way, it's hard for them to change their ways".

And this is not an uneducated TX redneck... married professional living in the 'burbs, in healthcare management, got his life together after being homeless for 2 years with various addictions when he was younger.

Really awkward moment for my teen...to see someone she has liked/respected for a long time talk like that.

[Yael]

56. I am sorry she had to go through that

:hug:

[lisa simson]

60. race! fight! fight!

More manufactured race wars please.

[AnnieBW]

62. My own mother!

My Mom and Dad, who still live in Pittsburgh, are Hillary supporters. Mom asked me who I was voting for. I told her that both my husband and I had voted for Obama, but he wasn't our first choice. She was shocked that I didn't vote for Hillary, since I went to a women's college. She then said that, "if Hillary doesn't win, I'm thinking of voting for McCain. I'm not ready to have a black man be President." I just told her to hold her nose and think of the Supreme Court. Dad, OTOH, seems to be a little more open to voting for Obama if he wins.

Frankly, by November the economy is going to be so bad that people will vote for a piece of toast if it says "Democrat" behind it's name.

[knixphan]

89. wow

well, there's no direction to go now but forward - one generation, one inch forward...

[npincus]

67. I think older folks will be drawn to McCain, racist or not

YES WE CAN!

[knixphan]

80. Sorry about that, Yael

Curious how many other posters have to deal with this in their family...anyone?

[WinkyDink]

88. OP alternate title: "Racism in my family".

Your relatives are people who could have become prejudiced anywhere (there are plenty of NFL teams); thus, your extrapolation from your blood to your adopted HAS-ALWAYS-GONE-BLUE state is specious reasoning.

[cooolandrew]

91. To all those in PA it's not considered that folks vote racially by everyone. I feel stats show

this. All the best PA.

[Zachstar]

93. Very sad to hear such direct racism.

We have alot of work to do. Thankfully tho a generation of racists (Those who never got over racism in the old days) will finally get to see with their own eyes an African American president and they will know that racism no longer wins. Perhaps then they will stop.

Educate them! When they say such racist crap let them know of the horror african americans went through to gain the rights they have today.

[ekwhite]

97. I know the feeling

I am a native North Carolinian, with family in North Carolina, Georgia and Florida. I live in California. When I visit my sister who now lives in Georgia, I am constantly biting my tongue because of some of the things they say. What you heard from your Pennsylvania family is nothing compared to what I have heard down there.

[NOLALady]

106. Curious.

What would happen if you didn't bite your tongue? Do you think they would disown you?

[ekwhite]

142. Possibly

I am pretty much estranged from my family except my parents and my nephew anyway.

[NOLALady]

146. Oh. I'm sorry.

I guess I just have this tendency to call out a family member if I believe they are wrong. If we disagree, so be it, but they will know where I stand.

I don't call out acquaintances so much as I'm not stuck with them for life. But, I will let them know that certain language and beliefs (hate towards lifestyles, religions, races) will not be tolerated in my home. I don't want my kids to see me accepting behavior from friends that I will not accept from them.

[knixphan]

147. it's their loss, ek

[stratomagi]

103. Look

I've lived in PA almost my entire life. There is some credence to the old saying "Philadelphia, Pittsburgh and Alabama in between". We do have a lot of backwards ass folk around here as much as I hate to admit it.

[Freedom Train]

110. No need to be embarrassed

Obama recognized in his race speech that these sentiments exist among whites, and expressed understanding for them. I hope with an eventual Obama presidency, we'll see an end to affirmative action.

[NOLALady]

144. What do you think

should be in the place of Affirmative Action?

Or do you think this country has moved past the need to address racism?

[sampsonblk]

117. I honestly don't consider that racist. Here's why

I had the same experience in grade school. A schoolyard buddy of mine related a story about his father being passed over for a job (for which he was obviously the most qualified). The language that came from my 10 year-old friend was not very kind and I took great offense to it back then.

Three decades later, he has reportedly earned his racist stripes in his own right, based on the decisions he makes in his daily life. But even so, I still don't fault him for his childlike emotional response to something that's so complicated and leads to hurt feelings, even among those with the best intentions.

The other sad reality is that he was probably led to where he is now by that hurtful event in his childhood. In retrospect, I wish someone had been able to talk to him about it back then, he might still be a great guy today.

We all understand the reasoning behind affirmative action. But we also should recognize that whenever we try to fix old problems, there are going to be a few who get hurt by it. I think the cost is relatively low. But then again, I am not in their shoes.

[knixphan]

148. the mind of a child

is incredibly malleable, and it's a crime when they're led down an erroneous road...

[2rth2pwr]

126. Typical White People.

[Kitty Herder]

133. Ain't extended family great? Mine are the same way.

I love 'em anyway; we're a tight-knit family. But there are some topics we just can't discuss.

You should hear my grandma when she gets started on Mexicans. It makes me ill. The irony is that her five sons, including my late father, are/were frequently mistaken for Hispanics because they are dark-complected. We have an American Indian ancestor and they were permanently tanned from spending so much of the childhoods outdoors. (Dad was pretty pale under his shirt.) My uncles get called racial slurs by their co-workers. People used to walk up to my dad and speak to him in Spanish which he didn't understand at all. Yet Grandma perpetuates this hate even when her own sons are victims of it. (Not the speaking of Spanish. That's not hate. I mean the racial slurs my uncles endure.)

[Dan]

139. Sad smile,...well I have always felt that race was America's fault-line.

...having said that, you have to wonder how the GOP plan to exploit the race issue if O is the nominee. Why, because we within this family of 'DU' can't have a civil conversation about race...yet. Its' ugly what has been said - and will continue to be said; but we need to find a way to communicate with each other in a positive, constructive, and informative way without being adversarial, because after the nomination - it has the potential of becoming very ugly - and we will have to be able to respond to those from the dark side (GOP).

[Alter Ego]

145. My own grandmother still makes references to "coloreds"

and I live in Massachusetts, for chrissakes.

When she was in the hospital for a gastrointestinal issue, one of her attending nurses was African-American. As my family and I looked on in horror, she said one night while said nurse was bringing her dinner, "You know, I used to have lots of friends of your kind when I was a little girl."

She didn't even mean it in a derogatory way (at least I hope she didn't), but it still made my father, my mother, and I turn red with embarrassment.

It's just deeprooted in some places I guess.

[knixphan]

149. PAT BUCHANAN

...just sayin'.