Obama cannot win and needs to realize this.

[PinkTiger]

I'm sure this will bring the crazies out to punch me, but please listen to what I say before you hit the buttons:

Obama might win the Democratic race within the party, but he will NOT win the general election. He cannot, and here is why:

There aren't enough Democrats who will back him in the general for him to win. And many of these voters in the primaries and the caucuses will not vote in the general election, because they are first time voters. Where were they when Al Gore was trying to beat George Bush in 2000? Where were they when Kerry was trying to win in 2004? Exactly. They weren't voting. Whether they felt disenfranchised, bored, uninspired, whatever, they didn't vote. I find it hard to believe they will show up in November in large enough numbers; it just doesn't compute.

Barack Obama is not electable. The progressives love him, but the US isn't progressive. And about half the Democrats won't vote for him. Many of those will stay home in November to protest. The rest will vote for McCain.

It doesn't matter how right Barack Obama may be for America. America doesn't care. And I'm sick about this, because it means that we will not have a Democrat in the White House for at least four more years. The party will be splintered so badly by all this fighting, that we are likely to dissolve somewhat.

OK - I've had my say. Now flame away. But remember -- as you post -- where were you in 2000 and 2004 when we needed you then? Will you REALLY be there for our candidate in November? And will it matter when 51 percent or more of the electorate votes for the other candidate?

[SoFlaJet]

1. read as;

I'm a bitter Clinton supporter who will not vote for Obama-let it sink

[Craftsman]

35. I can not in good conscience vote for a bigot

So I may skip that race in the election.

[Sulawesi]

40. Who is the bigot?

[Craftsman]

42. Obama

If he was in that church for 20 years hae had to know. Since he stayed that is enough for me I will not vot for him.

[Name removed]

61. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Craftsman]

67. That is not how I see it

If a rethug who is white was in a white church that said similar things we would be all over him. I hold both to the same standard.

[Liberal Gramma]

96. They do and we are

nt

[Voice for Peace]

95. People here who continue to talk about Obama and his pastor are not trying to have a

reasonable conversation. They may not even be Democrats at all in many cases. I've stopped responding to that crap. If you see "let it sink" anywhere that's what it means. Don't bother debating this point, let it sink. It's irrelevant.

[bpeale]

119. it may be irrelevant to you, but here in NM it has legs & it ain't going away

just because you ignore it. people are talking about it. if this were a white guy in a white church that espoused KKK stuff, we would be all over it & it wouldn't be going away. he was in that church for 20 years. as my dead momma used to say ... you are who you associate with. obama is a racist. and trust me, a lot of people will not vote for him. they think of obama as trying to start a race war & that won't go away.

[EFerrari]

153. That's ridiculous. Obama IS HALF WHITE. His kids are partly white.

White people attend that church and white student groups go there to visit. Wright is not a bigot. He's a respected pastor in Chicago and he's received three presidential commendations.

You heard a two minute clip spun by Fox News but I'd bet you didn't see the original in context. And you feel free to call Obama a bigot? Who wants to start a race war?

You people are disgusting.

[Craftsman]

172. Agreed on every point

[onetinsoldier]

215. florida,texas,the entire old confederacy,ohio,arizona and most likely pennsylvania

he is in deep trouble in the above states in a ge,he cannot win

[bpeale]

219. yeah, i know, and failure to acknowledge reality ... well, we all know

what happens then. it will beat you over the head until you do acknowledge it.

we might like to think that racism is a thing of the past, and thats a nice thought, but it is not reality. GWB has promoted all kinds of racism for the last 8 years and if you think that is just going to go away, well, i have a bridge i'd like to sell you. racism is alive and well in this country in all the states you pointed out.

and those who would call names just because someone points out the reality to them (i.e. "you people disgust me") has a lot of growing up to do. be disgusted if you want, but there are a lot of racists in this country and they vote, and they out number non-racists by a large margin. you think all these racists are going to jump out of the woodwork & announce that they are racist? hell no they won't.

obama can't win in a general election. let's see what he has against him ... hmmm. his supporters have completely alienated those who support other candidates, he has underestimated how much racism there is to overcome, he can't get the latino vote. if obama is the nominee, we will lose in a landslide.

[Yes We Did]

166. don't feed the animals please. they'll just keep coming back.

[tabatha]

104. NO, that is not true and shows how you will believe anything from Fox.

A STATEMENT CONCERNING THE REV. JEREMIAH WRIGHT

The Reverend Jeremiah Wright is an outstanding church leader whom I have heard speak a number of times. He has served for decades as a profound voice for justice and inclusion in our society. He has been a vocal critic of the racism, sexism and homophobia which still tarnish the American dream. To evaluate his dynamic ministry on the basis of two or three sound bites does a grave injustice to Dr. Wright, the members of his congregation, and the African-American church which has been the spiritual refuge of a people that has suffered from discrimination, disadvantage, and violence. Dr. Wright, a member of an integrated denomination, has been an agent of racial reconciliation while proclaiming perceptions and truths uncomfortable for some white people to hear. Those of us who are white Americans would do well to listen carefully to Dr. Wright rather than to use a few of his quotes to polarize. This is a critical time in America's history as we seek to repent of our racism. No matter which candidates prevail, let us use this time to listen again to one another and not to distort one another's truth.
Dean J. Snyder, Senior Minister
Foundry United Methodist Church
March 19, 2008

on the basis of two or three sound bites - get it - it was not twenty years worth
on the basis of two or three sound bites - get it - it was not twenty years worth


And has not Obama's entire campaign been based on unity?

THINK!!!!! instead of spouting what you have been spoon-fed like a baby.

[otohara]

149. Unbelievable Reason

I watched Trinity service yesterday, and other services at Trinity online, very uplifting and all about God & Jesus. So let me get this straight, by condemning Obama, you therefore must condemn the entire 8000 member congregation who sat and listened to a few uncomfortable remarks over a 20 year period.

I've discovered some democrats on this site and other sites are about as tolerant as republican's and have the same tiny brain capacity.

Some asshole who works for McCain watched hours and hours and hours of Rev. Wright and came up with a 2 minute loop of those few remarks and it sends them into

How many people has the US killed in the world with out blinking an eye? The Japanese were about to give up, but no we had to show them a lesson and kill 1/2 million more. Iraq, no problem there - we kill and it's okay cuz we're the mighty USA. If he were lying, that to me would be worse, but there's much truth to what Wright says. The US has done some good things in wars, Iraq and dropping the bomb on two Japanese cities, not our finest hour.

[MarjorieG]

165. Ignorant of Wright, and Clintons' racial divide.

How do we know that their friend Murdoch, of Fox News, didn't edit and loop that tape 24/7 just for his friends-the Clintons. Gave her a fundraiser. Now that they are global players and very corporate, they're welcomed into that club. We need to understand what we'd be voting for with the opportunistic Clintons.

[cyndensco]

198. Please answer - I really want to know...

What did Rev. Wright say that was racist? I have heard only anti-government stuff - all of which I agree with. What exactly did he say against white people?

[IndependentDem]

202. i will give you an answer- and tell you what is wrong with Wright--

nothing.

[dkf]

45. Yup. I really do think this is behind the Hillary push lately...

Underlying this mess is the message "The United States will not elect a Black President".

I'm feeling more and more disgusted every day.

As an Asian person in Hawaii I haven't been exposed to much racism. Now I see it is alive and well, and really really really bad in parts of my own party.

Thank you Hillary people for exposing the ugliness and hypocrisy in our party. Our most loyal group is being stigmatized and kicked to the curb and we don't deserve their vote.

Now I realize how important it is for Obama to be elected. Otherwise the rest of the world will realize how awful we are as a people. We have got to overcome this.

[Craftsman]

57. I have no doubt I will see a minority President in my lifetime

It just will not be the unelectable Obigot. He is toast.

[dkf]

60. Apparently not a black person, because likely they will be supported by black ministers

and you all are turning black ministers into monsters.

It is very telling you talk about a "minority" President and not a "Black" President.

Very telling indeed.

[Craftsman]

64. Not all black ministers and clergy have these racist views

One of the ministers at my church was black (he was an associate and left to take a position leading another church nearby) he never said anythign near this devisive. The quote one of his sayings on race, "There is one race, the human race."

[dkf]

80. One of your other supporters has a link up on some

super delegate who is a minister who is backing Obama.

I hope you run to that thread and condemn it.

I notice you attribute the whole "one race" view to a black minister, not yourself. And if you believe that you should support Obama because that is exactly what he himself has said this whole election. I've got a read on you and its not nice.

[Craftsman]

82. See post #76 Please.

[dkf]

83. See post #81

[Craftsman]

76. I see only on race, the human race

if you see different then you might want to do some soul searching yourself.

[dkf]

81. Ha! You had to add that as a second thought I see

Your first impulse was to attribute it to someone else...and then you realized it would make you look like a much more decent person if you added that in your own voice.

Well at least you aren't stupid.

On Edit: If you had started off with this argument, maybe you could have won it...but you added it at the end when you were being called out. So pardon me if I take you with a grain of salt.

[ieoeja]

108. You are practically quoting Obama to state your view on race, then calling him a bigot.

Obama has stated that same sentiment in speech after speech after speech. He has gone before African-American crowds a hundred times this campaign and given his speech on how they need to stop blaming all their problems on racism and take responsibility for fixing those problems themselves.

Do you listen to Obama speak a hundred times? No. You listen to his fucking preacher and decide THAT must be what Obama thinks, not what Obama has said himself a hundred times.

[Craftsman]

174. I do not believe him, I think he got caught and is lying to save his run at the Whitehouse

[mrreowwr_kittty]

146. That reminds me of Stephen Colbert when he says "I don't see race".

You do know that he's doing satire, don't you?

[Craftsman]

175. I am not, I do not see race, I judge people by their character

And I have heard enough to find BHO's character lacking and troubling.

[Blue_Roses]

157. very telling indeed

nt

[Zodiak]

141. Welcome to ignore

You are pushing a right-wing viewpoint on a left-wing message board that has no basis in reality. Calling a black man racist because his pastor said a couple of divisive things (taken out of context) in a 30 year career is disingenuous and indicates that the person making such a judgment is either too intellectually lazy to be allowed to spout an opinion, too bigoted to see anything but "reverse racism" everywhere they turn, or has an agenda. Under all of these circumstances, you are not here to have an honest discussion.

I cannot wait for Obama to clinch the nomination so you "concern trolls" can go the fuck away.

[suziedemocrat]

91. again - any questioning of Obama HAS to be motivated by racism.

There is no other explanation.

Only racists don't recognize Obama as the messiah he is.

</end sarcasm>

[kerry-is-my-prez]

171. They are also alienating many women.....

n/t

[LVjinx]

183. Yea, let's stir up bogus cries of racism to completely fracture the party. Brilliant.

You should be ashamed of yourself. If not, I'm ashamed for you.

[Auntie Bush]

209. So if we don't vote for Obama...We're racist?

since when? I'm not going to vote for Obama and I'm not racist. How dare you accuse me of being Racist! By your ridiculous thinking...All those who don't vote for Hillary are misogynist!

[goclark]

77. Not this time!

[SoFlaJet]

41. I hate idiocy

like this I really am so fucking done with this shit-be a fucking democrat and vote for your better interests

[Craftsman]

43. It is in my best interests not to have a bigot in the Whitehouse.

[dkf]

46. You are really exposing yourself you know.

Not good.

[Craftsman]

51. Why because I refuse to vote for someon who supports racist views?

If a rethug went to a white church that held similar view we would be screaming about it. I do not hold double standards.

[Froward69]

63. Ahhh yes the diffrence between

Black and white churches... the difference you are failing to acknowledge is in fact "white" churches have nothing to bitch about. pat robertsons 700 club is so overtly racist no one reports it. as it is old news. then theirs the you tube no one likes to see, or acknowledge.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H-CAcdta_8I

Obama (D) would be so much better for all of us than the other two... Republicans.

[Craftsman]

70. I would not vote for him either

Like I said I do not vote for racists.

[cyndensco]

211. Obama is NOT a racist!!!

[dkf]

73. OMG, the man is half white and half black.

He was brought up in Hawaii by his white mother and white grandparents where there are no majorities.

What racist view has he expressed?

This is silly. You are silly.

[Texas Hill Country]

103. techinically yes, but he has chosen to identify himself as an African American...

not that i care what he is, but just pointing that out.

[dkf]

109. I'm just pointing out that I highly doubt he hates everyone who raised him because they were white.

How ludicrous is that?

[LVjinx]

184. Well, he did say Wright isn't racist but his Grandma IS... So it just may be.

Unlikely, but ya never know.

[cyndensco]

210. He did not say his grandmother was racist

If she had been racist, she would have chosen to have nothing to do with her biracial grandson. No, she loved him - did not fear HIM but feared those who looked like him. Unfortunately, such fears did and still exist.

I think he excused her distrust, even though some of her comments made him cringe. He suggesting some of her feelings were almost justified because of her exposure being limited to how the MSM portrayed/s the "typical black person."

[comrade snarky]

150. Do you really believe

That in this country a person who looks like Obama gets to choose what race he will be identified with?

[Enthusiast]

133. If you believe Barack is bigot,

I you believe Barack is racist, if you really believe it, you are misinformed. Anyone that has even a passing interest in truth knows that Obama is not racist. I don't think you are being honest. You are pretending to believe Barack is racist, you can't seriously hold that view.

[liberal1973]

62. If mcBush gets in then yes you will

[Craftsman]

71. So, as I see it there are 2 bigots running now

That leaves me to support HRC.

[odelisk8]

130. the Clinton

campaign STARTED the race baiting and you call OBAMA the racist?!!?...this is the Orwellian nightmare come to USA...absurd...

[burythehatchet]

68. How you got to 244 posts before getting flushed down the shitter is a mystery to me.

Better late than never

Bye loser.

[hell-bent]

155. Who in the hell are you

to determine who should be flushed? Oh, I see now. You are one of the Messiah's followers,right? Therefore, anyone that disagrees or has a unfavorable opinion of HIM must not me a follower of HIS teachings, and should be castigated for their evil intentions. Take a hike, Fool!

[Blue_Roses]

159. there is a rule here at DU

flamebait is not tolerated.

[LVjinx]

185. If that were so, 75% of the posters here would be banned.

[Blue_Roses]

158. we've had one

for seven years--how do you answer that?

[sabbat hunter]

50. why

who exactly on the D side is a bigot?

[Craftsman]

54. He was a memeber of a church that supported a racist agenda for over 20 years

He had tro know what was being preached, yet he stayed. If he was white and the church was white adn said similar things you would be screamin about it. What is good for the goose is good for the gander.

[sabbat hunter]

75. so is

HRC also a bigot?

What exactly was this racist agenda that you claim his church had? Please give details and links.

[dkf]

87. Most churches have been preaching against homosexuality for longer than that

Do you belong to a church? Have you ever heard anti homosexual statements?

Have you ever heard anti-muslim statements?

If you have ever heard any of the above, I expect you to renounce your church and your minister immediately.

Thank you.

[GOTV]

137. Bullpucky! 3 or 4 cherry picked soundbites out of a multi decade career is not a "racist agenda"

[sabbat hunter]

140. you mean the church

that has hundreds of white members?

interesting that they would attend a church that hates them.

[cyndensco]

212. What did the church/Rev Wright say that was bigoted?

[marshall]

100. If we are defying the rules, why not just run Bill Clinton as president

The Constitution and DNC rules be damned. Could Bill Clinton beat McCain in the general election?

[zonkers]

142. So how is responding to OP at all, an act of "letting it sink".

[roguevalley]

173. they all had a meeting last night and decided to flood the site with

the same email. sad. :)

[MethuenProgressive]

2. "about half the Democrats won't vote for him" Over half *didn't* vote for him.

Clinton is ahead is if Michigan and Florida are added in. She has 13,612,347 to Obama's 13,578,741.

http://www.politifact.com/truth-o-meter/statements/391 /

More votes have been cast for Hillary than for Barack.
DUbamas hate this fact.

[YOY]

7. Well then I guess they're not really democrats are they?

n/t

[Terry_M]

8. How can you count Michigan?

HE WASN'T ON THE BALLOT.

[Mezzo]

74. How can you NOT count Michigan?

HE, and he alone, took his name off the ballot. those good dems stood up to be counted, and they should have more of a say than a republican in Texas.

[GOTV]

139. Because it was an illegitimate primary election.

[CitizenRob]

178. GOTV don't even bother trying to reason with an HRC supporter.

[democrattotheend]

10. Only if you don't count the uncommitteds for Obama

If you give him the uncommitted votes he still leads with Michigan and Florida. And does that number factor in all of the caucus states? Some don't release numbers, but it is possible to compute it once we have a turnout figure. Has that been done for this analysis?

[MethuenProgressive]

13. Math is math. She has 13,612,347 to Obama's 13,578,741.

More votes have been cast for Clinton than Obama.

[nxylas]

36. Not according to Real Clear Politics

RCP has the totals at:-

Obama: 13,345,318
Clinton: 12,634,376

With Florida and Michigan:-

Obama: 13,921,532
Clinton: 13,833,671

[Perky]

55. Here is the actual Math

Date Winner State ….. Clinton ….. Obama
Details ….. 13,358,629 ….. 13,524,122

3-Jan-08 O IA ….. 69,310 ….. 90,820
8-Jan-08 C1 NH ….. 112,610 ….. 105,007
15-Jan-08 NV MI ….. 328,151 …..
19-Jan-08 C1 NV ….. 60,690 ….. 53,550
26-Jan-08 O SC ….. 141,128 ….. 295,091
29-Jan-08 NV FL ….. 857,208 ….. 569,041
5-Feb-08 C OK ….. 228,425 ….. 130,087
5-Feb-08 O IL ….. 662,845 ….. 1,301,994
5-Feb-08 O MO ….. 395,287 ….. 405,284
5-Feb-08 O AL ….. 226,454 ….. 302,684
5-Feb-08 O UT ….. 48,719 ….. 70,373
5-Feb-08 O GA ….. 328,129 ….. 700,366
5-Feb-08 O AR ….. 202,055 ….. 77,962
5-Feb-08 C NJ ….. 602,576 ….. 492,186
5-Feb-08 C TN ….. 322,599 ….. 250,730
5-Feb-08 C MA ….. 704,591 ….. 511,887
5-Feb-08 C AZ ….. 201,391 ….. 167,053
5-Feb-08 O CT ….. 164,831 ….. 179,349
5-Feb-08 C NM ….. 67,921 ….. 66,829
5-Feb-08 C NY ….. 1,003,623 ….. 697,914
5-Feb-08 O DE ….. 40,751 ….. 51,124
5-Feb-08 C CA ….. 2,132,166 ….. 1,735,015
5-Feb-08 O MN ….. 68,193 ….. 141,292
5-Feb-08 O CO ….. 38,387 ….. 79,344
5-Feb-08 O KS ….. 9,462 ….. 27,172
5-Feb-08 O ND ….. 6,948 ….. 11,625
5-Feb-08 O ID ….. 3,655 ….. 16,880
5-Feb-08 C AS ….. 163 ….. 121
5-Feb-08 O AK ….. 103 ….. 302
5-Feb-08 O DA ….. …..
9-Feb-08 O LA ….. 136,959 ….. 220,558
9-Feb-08 O WA ….. 61,070 ….. 133,960
9-Feb-08 O NE ….. 12,374 ….. 26,296
9-Feb-08 O VI ….. 226 ….. 1,833
10-Feb-08 O ME ….. 17,600 ….. 25,960
12-Feb-08 O VA ….. 345,018 ….. 619,036
12-Feb-08 O MD ….. 273,828 ….. 439,079
12-Feb-08 O DC ….. 27,326 ….. 85,534
19-Feb-08 O WI ….. 452,757 ….. 645,954
19-Feb-08 O HI ….. 8,835 ….. 28,347
4-Mar-08 C1 TX ….. 1,459,814 ….. 1,358,785
4-Mar-08 C OH ….. 1,207,896 ….. 979,025
4-Mar-08 C RI ….. 108,750 ….. 78,115
4-Mar-08 O VT ….. 59,640 ….. 91,740
8-Mar-08 O WY ….. 3,312 ….. 5,378
11-Mar-08 O MS 154,852 ….. 253,441

THIS INCLUDES EVERYHING Including MI And Florida.

[sabbat hunter]

17. one major problem

Obama wasnt on the ballot in Michigan. If he was, he still would be way ahead in the popular vote and still be ahead in delegates.

Care to try again?

[MethuenProgressive]

30. Math is math. More have voted for Clinton than have for Obama.

Your claim that they only votred HRC because BO wasn't on the ballot is fantasy.

[sabbat hunter]

47. oh really

so are you saying that Barack wouldn't have gotten any votes at all if he was on the ballot in Michigan. That is fantasy my friend.

[cyndensco]

213. he didn't get any votes in that Harlem district, either...

[sabbat hunter]

220. after a recount

he did.

[cyndensco]

221. it was sarcasm...

[sabbat hunter]

224. you should use

the sarcasm tag :sarcasm:

you put it in by having a colon, then the word sarcasm followed by another colon.


Welcome to DU! :hi:

[cyndensco]

225. thanks

Didn't know that. (Though I thought 0 votes in HARLEM for Obama was obvious enough):hi:

[dkf]

You need to back up your numbers...the poster above you did

and I have a hard time believing Hillary people nowadays.

[bpeale]

122. and you can't just arbitrarily give someone votes when they weren't on the ballot

because they MIGHT have gotten some either.

[CitizenRob]

179. Math is Math... ESPECIALLY when I make up numbers! Hillary: 1 vote, Obama: 15 trillion. Hooray!

Look I can make up numbers too! I swear my numbers have REAL sources, I'm just not going to bother linking to them.

[indimuse]

33. Question.

Will the out come be dramatically different anyway, considering Obama won alot of his support through caucusing...and in the GE...there is no caucus. Do you think that will translate?

[cd3dem]

78. BO's fuzzy math starts with him winning and uses the stats to make it work

[RUMMYisFROSTED]

3. Absurd.

[LTR]

4. If he can add more voters than Kerry...

...And that is a definite possiblity, why couldn't he win?

So far, it seems like Obama has more outside appeal than Kerry.

[Cha]

197. The poster is for hilary so naturally the

pinktiger is going to say Obama can't win in the General like :wtf: does it know?

[Terry_M]

5. Where will those same new voters be if Hillary is up?

They'll be even less likely to get out of the house to vote for her, if only because Obama is out there registering them and raising their interest. How will Hillary get more votes in the GE than Obama with even fewer of those new voters than Obama would get?

[countingbluecars]

6. Have you noticed the amazing

turnout for Democrats during this primary? People want change. They will vote in November if the candidate represents change from the policies of George Bush.

[comrade snarky]

152. Exactly

In how many states now have the Democratic front runners each gotten more than the total number of Republican votes?

I'm beginning to read "B.O. cant win the election" as "I don't want B.O. to win the election"

[olkaz]

9. Heard this sooooo many times....

Oh you progressives.

You've had your fun, now it's time for the grownups to take over. Put your toys away and go to bed.

I'm wearing a palm imprint on my face.

[YOY]

11. Actually Hillary is less "progressive" than Obama

And Obama really isn't that much to the left of Hillary. They're both centrists.

You do know what a "progressive" is, don't you?

[olkaz]

18. You missed my point entirely.

I'm saying that the DLC types want control back.

I was saying that Carville and his ilk think they're entitled to something. I thought my last line served as the sarcasm tag, but next time I guess I'll be more straighforward.

[EFerrari]

29. The DLC cannot be happy right now, that's for sure. nt

[Yossariant]

12. Many years ago, one of my left wing poli-sci professors described the GOP as

"the party of crooks" and the Dems as "the party of fools."

The Dems are, AGAIN, proving how right he was.

Obama is, as you say, unelectable.

[cyndensco]

214. do you REALLY believe hillary is electable??

[Eurobabe]

14. Meet my ignore list! BYE!!

[EFerrari]

15. Gore won and so did Kerry. n/t

[Yossariant]

19. Yeah, Obama will win just like President Gore and President Kerry won.

:wtf:

[EFerrari]

28. Do you not know that the media consortium concluded

that Gore won Florida? How is that possible?

Do you also not know about the mountain of evidence that show Ohio was stole from Kerry? How is that possible?

Obama will do better because there's been a lot of work done to clean up Ohio AND Florida AND we have much better election protection infrastucture now.

[bpeale]

124. that tells me if obama can't win decisively in a rout, they will steal the election again

no matter who the nominee is, if the election is close, we lose. and this divisiveness is going to cost the democrats the election.

[EFerrari]

144. They are going to try to steal it no matter who we run.

And it's not clear that there is "too close" any more with electronic voting. We knew they were stealing Ohio and no one would even cover the story.

But, divisiveness probably is hurting our candidate right now. That is already being promoted by the media.

[bpeale]

151. in order to keep them from doing that, it has to be a landslide

and we're not there. it will be a close enough election to steal. why can we not stop shooting ourselves in the foot?

[sabbat hunter]

16. and you are sure

that HRC with her high negatives and all the people (independents) that hate her has any better of a chance?

[MercutioATC]

20. If Obama can't win, Clinton is doomed.

I believe Obama is both less threatening and more appealing to disaffected Repubs and Indies than Clinton. Couple that with the fact that he's obviously more popular among Dems, and you're left with a REALLY bad situation if Clinton is the candidate.

[Cheap_Trick]

123. the name clinton carries more baggage

than a Samsonite factory.

[mucifer]

21. There is too much angrer on both sides.

Seems to me people would rather fight about Barack and Hillary than elect a dem for president.
It's a problem with both sides so mccain will win and our country will be lost.

[indio55555]

22. Personally I think it will be the other way around

for the non-votes in November. See the thing is there was this guy Limbaugh who told fellow Repubs to go and vote for Hillary….. Now when November comes…. You get the picture.

For me it really won’t matter who the candidate is in November. I mean I like Barak and want him to be the next president, but if Hillary slithers her way into the ballots in November I’ll vote for her.

[tedrick8]

168. Speaking of "Let it sink"

If Hillary gets the nomination, how does she expect to get elected against rabid repugs and no black vote. The way she has treated Obama, I'd be surprised if she got more than 10% of the black vote. The rest would stay home.
Hillary would be toast. Again, a democratic congress would have an easier time keeping McCain out of Iran than Hillary.

[BeyondGeography]

23. I used to write these kinds of posts about Hillary a year ago

Half the country actively despises her.

They're tired of Bush Clinton Bush Clinton.

All the old scandals will be dredged up in the general (plus some new ones).

Etc., etc.

And then I realized I wasn't getting anywhere, for the simple reason that I left out the part why my candidate was right for the party and the country. If all you do is trade on someone else's challenges, you do nothing but piss off that candidate's supporters and your words are easily dismissed.

In other words, dismissed.

[rodeodance]

52. And we see copy cat posts like it almost every day for last two months. but she is still in.

[earthside]

24. "Clinton cannot win and needs to realize this."

Just take out 'Obama' and insert 'Clinton(s)' ... the analysis in this post means that the Democrats are doomed in November.

This thinking is simply defeatist.

[DainBramaged]

25. I read these threads and think, how big can my ignore list get

and then I realize, pretty fucking big.

Buhbye.:hi:

[SharonRB]

26. A lot of those new voters weren't old enough to vote in 2000 or 2004

They will turn out to vote for Obama in November, but they may not turn out to vote for Hillary.

Hillary is no more electable than Obama -- maybe even less so, since he has support from more Indpendents, and even some moderate Republicans. The Republicans hate Hillary.

All that being said, if we don't unite once we have a candidate and ALL turn out to vote for whichever one it is, neither one will be electable. Hillary has been turning me off more and more lately, but if somehow she pulls this out, I will vote for her in November. It's too important an election and we all need to get together when this is over -- whether the nominee is Hillary or Barack.

[tedrick8]

169. I will never vote for Hillary.

say goodbye to the black vote.

[Craftsman]

176. I would never vote for Obama

[tedrick8]

182. Do you plan to abstain or vote for McCain?

[Craftsman]

227. Skip that vote and go to the down ballot races.

[LVjinx]

187. Just four months ago 80% of black voters were behind Hillary.

The only problem with the black vote is Obama supporters constant lies about the Clintons, and complete fabrication of quotes in the case of "Obama is just like Jesse Jackson." Or that the Obama candidacy is a fairy tale. Or that "talented young man" is secret slang for "boy."

Sickening. Doesn't it bother Obama supporters that they have to make stuff up, sliming a former President of the US as a racist, to prop up their candidate?

[cyndensco]

216. You probably should not attempt to explain the black vote

THIS black voter decided AGAINST Hillary several years ago. She voted to authorize the bush war - remember? She never felt guilty enough to apologize - even Byrd said he didn't want it on HIS conscience.

She has run a laughable campaign. Enough said about that...

Obama represents a change, not a BLACK change, but a change. He has refreshing ideas: imagine, TALKING with your enemies. If Clinton had at one time had 80% of the black vote, I and most everyone I know, including lots of New Yorkers, must have comprised much of the 20%.

[Marie26]

27. Of course he can

This whole passage makes no sense: "There aren't enough Democrats who will back him in the general for him to win. And many of these voters in the primaries and the caucuses will not vote in the general election, because they are first time voters. .. Whether they felt disenfranchised, bored, uninspired, whatever, they didn't vote. I find it hard to believe they will show up in November in large enough numbers; it just doesn't compute."

Obama has been winning states because Rep. & independents have crossed over to vote for him, and large numbers of young people have turned out to vote. These people were excited & enthusiatic about an Obama candidacy, so why would they suddenly decide not to vote for Obama in the GE? These "X can't win" things are getting tiresome. ANY Democrat can beat McCain.

[mucifer]

32. any dem could beat mccain if voting wasn't media driven.

The media refuses to cover issues. I hope I'm wrong.

[Colobo]

31. So what do you suggest?

[RoadRage]

34. You do realize...

That you could insert the word "Clinton" every place you have the word "Obama" and the post would be equally as true (if not more)?

Frankly, Obama is bringing new voters into this election.. young, independents & republicans. And, unlike Clinton - many of these people really DO plan on voting for Obama in the G.E. if he gets there.

I'm not flaming you at all - i'm just saying we have a really divided party right now.. and 1/2 want Obama and 1/2 want Clinton. Either side can easily say "Your candidate won't win a GE.. but neither can say with 100% certainty that their side WILL".

[CTLawGuy]

37. Hillary gets 10% of the black vote

how can SHE win without that crucial constituency???

[LVjinx]

188. ...Because Obama is in the race. Before Obama was known, she had 80% of that vote.

[CTLawGuy]

205. and how do you know that Obama wouldn't have

HIllary's vote if she weren't in the race?

[cyndensco]

217. you are so clueless

Hillary lost lots of the black vote WAY before Obama entered.

[Sulawesi]

38. If you feel Obama should realize this, why not just email him? It may not have occurred to him.

[Recursion]

39. Where they were

Where were they when Al Gore was trying to beat George Bush in 2000? Where were they when Kerry was trying to win in 2004? Exactly.

They were being talked down to and treated like idiots by professional political consultants rather than being asked to do something for a candidate. So they stayed home.

[Jennicut]

44. Oh get over yourself already. I would vote for Hillary if she were the nominee and I voted for BO

Stay home in the general election. Don't vote for Barack if he is our nominee. And then if John McCain wins I don't want to hear a word from you or others like you that we are once again stuck with a Rethug criminal in the Whitehouse. People like you make me sick. The main goal here is not whether Hillary or Barack's faithful followers have their egos massaged or their feet kissed. The main goal is to rid the United States and therefore the world of the scum of Rethugs. I am not a fan of Hillary Clinton. I don't even feel why I need to go into it as some many other people post on here negative/positive things about the two candidates all day long. I don't give a crap about that as much as I care about getting a Democrat elected to the Whitehouse. So learn to hold your nose and vote for the constitution, against needless war, for healthcare reform, against individual rights being taken away, against mass corruption in our political system. The Democrats are not God's gift to the political process. But either one of them just might stop a war mongering senile hypocritcal Rethug from taking the Whitehouse. In this new age of the imperial presidency that Bush and Cheney helped create we desperately need to put aside our differences for the sake of the country and support whoever the nominee will be. Right now it looks like Barack Obama will be it as he has more delegates and the popular vote as counted so far. If its Hillary, than I will proudly hold my nose and exercise my right to rid the world of Rethugs in major power (at least for another 4 years). Wake up and make the right choice or just become a victim and do nothing. I didn't stay home and cry like a baby when Al Gore ran for president and I did not when Kerry ran. I didn't vote for a third party knowing they would never win. I voted for the Democratic nominee.

[SoFlaJet]

86. great post Jenni

STFU already with this I won't vote for anybody else shit man-be a FUCKING DEMOCRAT, because I can tell you this every single one of you fuckers will get alerts from me if you push that shit when the nominee is choisen-regardless of which one it is

[Shae]

116. AMEN!

'nuff said

[bpeale]

125. welcome to ignore Jennicut for name calling

[bpeale]

126. welcome to ignore Jennicut for name calling

if you can't discuss issues without name calling, then you have nothing i want to read or hear.

[Jennicut]

218. I don't recall name calling in my post

If I offended you I am sorry but my point is that we as Democrats need to come together and vote for the nominee whether it is Hillary or Obama. I have no problem with criticizing either candidate over any of their views, the way they have led thier lives, the things they or others working/supporting them have said. I DO have a problem with not supporting the Democratic nominee when it comes to the GE. McCain is even more enamored of the use of military when it comes to conflicts around the world. I want to ensure he has no chance to become our president. To do that we need to strongly support our nominee.

[comrade snarky]

154. Woo!

Now that is a rant I can agree with! Every dang word!

Thank you

[tedrick8]

170. She's no different than McCain on Iran! She can't wait for another war!

[rodeodance]

48. Thanks for your post

[rodeodance]

49. REC

[cd3dem]

53. A former Ross Perot supporter said he would vote for Clinton but not Obama

If Obama is the candidate, he will vote for McCain. He is concerned about spending and the national debt. He trusts Hillary Clinton because Bill Clinton balanced the budget. He then trusts McCain and last Obama.

Obama cannot win!

[Jennicut]

65. If he voted for Ross Perot than he was probably not a Democrat anyways

Really, come on now. My ultra conservative father voted for Ross Perot because he was worried about the deficit. Then he turned around and voted for George Bush twice, the biggest deficit buster if there ever was one. A true Democrat should vote for Barack or Hillary. I used to be an independent that voted for Democrats. Than I woke up and realized its Democrats or bust so I officially registered as a Democrat in 2004. They are not perfect but they are all we got against the Republicans. I don't care who the nominee is. They are both better than McCain!

[cd3dem]

89. U R missing the point! democrats = 1/3; republicans = 1/3; winner takes 51% of the other 1/3

[Shae]

121. A former Ross Perot voter?

ONE former Ross Perot voter says he will vote for Hillary but not for Obama?
Therefore Obama cannot win??
Well, hopefully the election won't hinge on the vote of this ONE Perot voter.
You think? Sheesh.

[zulchzulu]

56. So what's your solution, Mr. OP with the Hillary avatar?

:rofl:

Your "analysis" is laughable and complete conjecture on your part. But thanks for playing!

Here's one big grenade in your "argument". How do you come up with your theory about not enough Democrats voting when IN FACT there have been records broken with how many Democrats are participating? You got jack, pops.

[yurbud]

58. Obama is already proving to be a more adept campaigner than either Kerry or Gore

Kerry essentially followed the Shrum way: piss on the base and try to win the middle with vagueness.

Obama has figured out that appealing to the Democratic base and independents and new voters are not mutually exclusive--strip the progressive message of jargon and it reaches both, and he'll get more foot soldiers in the base working for him.

[Larkspur]

59. If Obama can't win in November than Hillary will get blown out in NOvember

The Reich Wing has been preparing for a Hillary Prez run and they are armed and loaded to go after her. They want Hillary as the Dem nominee because they know that they can easily defeat her.

[Strelnikov_]

84. Ka-Ching n/t

[burythehatchet]

66. Your opinion was worth every penny I paid for it.

that's 4 minutes I'll never get back :(

[sybylla]

69. That's a bit of rewriting of history

And many of these voters in the primaries and the caucuses will not vote in the general election, because they are first time voters. Where were they when Al Gore was trying to beat George Bush in 2000? Where were they when Kerry was trying to win in 2004? Exactly. They weren't voting.

In 2000, they were voting for Nader because they were told there's no difference between the parties. In 2004 they voted for Dean until he left the race. He tried to keep his supporters involved and motivated, forming Democracy for America. But let's face it, Kerry wasn't the most inspiring candidate for new voters or they would have been with him from the start.

In this case, Obama is bringing a large block of inspired new voters with him. Whether or not the same thing will happen to HRC if she gets the nomination that happened to Kerry in 2004, is hard to say. But I suspect history will repeat itself.

But you are welcome to your opinion on the matter.

[1776Forever]

72. Right - RCP Average 03/13 - 03/22 - 46.3 43.4 Obama +2.9

http://www.realclearpolitics.com/epolls/2008/president/us/democratic_presidential_nomination-191.html

:rofl: :rofl: :rofl:

[Firespirit]

79. Too young to vote?

And many of these voters in the primaries and the caucuses will not vote in the general election, because they are first time voters. Where were they when Al Gore was trying to beat George Bush in 2000? Where were they when Kerry was trying to win in 2004? Exactly. They weren't voting. Whether they felt disenfranchised, bored, uninspired, whatever, they didn't vote.

How about.... they were too young to vote?

I am on the cusp of Generations X and Y -- i.e., one of the oldest Gen-Y'ers, an important part of Obama's voting base, and the largest U.S. generation in history. Think about that. Larger than the boomer generation.

I was too young to vote in 2000, and because I'm one of the oldest members of the largest generation in history, that means that none of the others could vote for Gore either.

Those of my generation, the 80s kids, who were of voting age in 2004 went for Kerry in large numbers. He won our age group. He didn't win yours. So whose votes are not to be counted on?

Now all of Gen-Y can vote and the cusp of the Millennial generation can as well. Obama is inspirational to them. They delivered the primaries, they got out and caucused for him, they gave him money that they couldn't really afford. They prove their mettle and walk the walk, and all you do is piss on them and state that they supposedly won't do the same in the general.

I'm tired of the generational warfare, but honestly, you need to pull that big two-by-four out of your generation's eye before you "cast asparagus" at mine. We're not the ones who are so damn cynical and pessimistic that we think "oh it won't matter, might as well stay home."

[SoonerPride]

85. Maybe so, but he will do a helluva lot better than Clinton, who is a sure loser.

She can't beat a "loser," so she would go down in a Mondale style landslide defeat of epic proportions.

[undeterred]

88. You are out of touch with reality,

desperately grasping at straws, like your candidate.

[BigDDem]

97. Speaking of reality...

do you think "typical white person" and "God Damn America" will sell
with white America?

Good luck with that.

:rofl:

[undeterred]

99. I am white america

and I've been to Obama's church. And I can tell you that non racist Americans of every color are ready for a wonderful leader like Barack Obama.

[BigDDem]

111. "non racist Americans"

So if you dont sign on to "God Damn America," Bill Clinton rode blacks
like he rode Monica Lewinsky, the govt invented HIV then you're a
racist? Sounds about right.

[WinkyDink]

127. "I am white america (sic)": Ego much? Oh, wait; I am white America, too!

How is Obama such a "wonderful" leader?

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

105. Meh, the only people worried about that are racist Republicans.

Fuck 'em.

[olkaz]

107. Sells with me. Sells with my family. Sells with my friends.

And they're mostly white.

Are we missing something?

[BigDDem]

117. Then please do what I've been doing....spread the word!

Ive sent the Wright YouTube link to everyone I know in PA, please do the same.
If it goes over well with you, your friends and your family, Im sure the
rest of America will love it.

[olkaz]

129. The funny thing is that...

My family and friends were savvy enough to know a smear job when they see it. Of course they were initially surprised. Fortunately the people I know have an idea of nuance.

And good god, if your best use of time is spreading the Reverend Wright clip, just what does your candidate offer Pennsylvania? Is that it? "At least she's not connected to THIS guy! Sheesh!"

[BigDDem]

132. Why be snarky? I'm just trying to help your side.

Since you're in the "Wright is right" camp, I'm just helping spread
the word for ya!

[olkaz]

136. Well, don't let me stop you.

And for clarification, I never said he was right. I think he's justified, but not right.

Go on trying to scare people. Karl Rove will be proud.

[ieoeja]

112. Obama said that?

What I have heard in speech after speech Obama has given to predominately African-American crowds is that they should stop blaming all of their problems on racism and concentrate on how they themselves can do better.

Which is more important to you, what Obama himself says a hundred times or what his fucking pastor says?

[BigDDem]

120. It's the "judgment" haven't you heard?

That's BO's claim to fame.

The fact that he CHOSE this "fucking pastor" to be his
spiritual adviser and his mentor speaks loads about his
judgment.

[thereismore]

90. Igged. nt

[clevbot]

92. in 2000 i was in middle school, in 2004, i was apathetic to politics

in 2008 its BARACK ALL THE WAY. THE YOUTH WILL SHOW UP>>>>

[hell-bent]

161. Yeah, liked they showed up for Dean in Iowa?

Sorry, I don't want a candidate that is primarily supported by youthful, easily brain-washed surrogates aligned with the guilt-ridden White elitists; and, 90% if the Black community. I wouldn't call that coalition in my best interests. Sorry. If he should be the nominee, than I suppose I will hold my nose while voting for him knowing he will not be elected. You can't possible win with that coalition of voters.

[Voice for Peace]

93. I don't agree with you.

There are enough Democrats who will back him.

One of his talents is energizing people to vote. This will continue to be part of his 50-state campaign through the GE. It is especially the first-time voters who have campaigned and supported him in the primary who will continue to be excited about campaigning and getting out the vote until November. He inspires people to get involved and take personal responsibilty, and inspiration should NEVER be underestimated.

Independents and many republicans will vote for him in the GE. They would not vote for Hillary but they will vote for Barack.

A lot of America does care. This has been a big surprise to me personally, but I am discovering it's true.

[adoraz]

94. Clinton is less electable.

If Clinton steals the election like she is trying to do, there is no chance in Hell she will be elected.

[scheming daemons]

98. Even if you are right.... Hillary has even LESS of a chance in November than Barack...

Hillary is even more polarizing.... and is the one candidate on either side that can rally the GOP to the polls.


Our key is keeping GOP turnout low..... Hillary on the ticket guarantees record GOP turnout to vote against her.


Bank on it.

[SeaLyons]

101. It's true

We will lose the White House if Obama is our nominee..

[Amelie]

102. Uninspiring?

Al Gore in 2000 was not inspiring. John Kerry was not inspiring. The same is not true for Barack Obama. The man does not sweat; he leaks inspiration. I think people will come out in droves to vote for him.

[BigDDem]

147. "people will come out in droves"

do you think they'll come out in droves in PA?

[Amelie]

226. No, because

Republicans are doing everything they can to screw up the elections. They're going to continue to prop up her run because they want this stupid in-fighting to go on forever. No one is focusing on McCain, who they know is nuts. No one can live through five years of torture without going batshit crazy. If there was more pressure on McCain, he'd lose it, everyone would see that he's unstable, and he'd be toast.

If Hillary is the nominee, I'll vote for her. But I think Obama is more electable.

[hell-bent]

162. You can't be serious?

What are you drinking or smoking? Those kind of statements are real frightening.

[Perry Logan]

106. Scientific polls show Americans to be largely progressive in their views.

Check out "The Progressive Majority: Why a Conservative America is a Myth"
http://mediamatters.org/progmaj/report

"This report demonstrates the inaccuracy of that picture of America. Media perceptions and past Republican electoral successes notwithstanding, Americans are progressive across a wide range of controversial issues, and they're growing more progressive all the time."

[Asgaya Dihi]

110. No flame, but an observation

You say he's unelectable because half the dem party won't vote for him, the progressives love him but half the party isn't progressive? Fair enough. But has it ever occurred to that other half of the party that they can't win either if the progressives stay home in protest? The argument you seem to be making is that with the campaign we're running today we can expect neither side to win.

Personally I'd have to agree.

The progressives can't have it demanded of them election after election that they vote against their own interests on so many issues such as prison reform or corporate growth then never have major issues offered in return. That seems to be the way it's gone for a long time now. The dem party isn't as progressive as it used to be, granted, but this nation already has a Republican party so if the dem party goes through too much effort to spit on the grassroots, the blogs, and the most active parts of the party these days they might find themselves short on votes too. Seems too often these days they are running more on hair splitting differences between the parties rather than major ones. Without the progressives the party doesn't have a chance, and they won't keep voting against themselves forever.

Then who do we blame? Them again?

[mopinko]

113. he will win because record numbers of people are voting

for him. that is how it works, see? where will those new voters be in novemeber? if hillary manages to bully her way into the nomination, yes, many will stay home. but if obama is awarded the nomination that he so clearly has earned, they will not only be voting, but registering more new voters, making phone calls, attending fundraisers, and working the polls.
last i looked, that is how you win elections.
and if every person who ever got pissed off about the disgusting way that aftrican americans are oppressed in this country, and shouted out "god damn america" when everyone around them was papering over the centuries of crimes with a stupid "god bless america" is some sort of "black racist", then i guess i am one, too. i hope there is a lapel pin for this.

the entirety of your comments here are pretty demonstrably not true. especially as they pertain to the good reverend. and your pathetic attempt at guilt by association.

and now i intend to let this sink.
let it sink
let it sink
let it sink
let it sink

[Shine]

114. I respectfully disagree and point out that fatalistic thinking is very unproductive n/t

[bpeale]

115. uver mind the U.S.

<<Barack Obama is not electable. The progressives love him, but the US isn't progressive. And about half the Democrats won't vote for him. Many of those will stay home in November to protest. The rest will vote for McCain.>>

Obama is not progressive either. the only true progressives that were in this race were Kucinich and Edwards and the dems ran them off so they could have a "first" in this election. only the democratics could pull a loss out of a sure win. only the dems...

[harun]

118. * punch *

It is about independents, rehabilitated republicans, democrats and progressives.

[cooolandrew]

128. They didn't show in 04 because theywanted Dean. Time for their future to be honored.

[MrCTLib]

131. ....

Only one way to vote

Hillary

[Firespirit]

134. Think before you post

Assuming you are indeed a Deaniac who stayed home because he lost, and you're not just saying this to make Dean and Obama people look bad, THINK before you say something like this.

2004 wasn't stealable because young folks stayed home. Kerry WON young folks. He did not win their parents and grandparents. I'm tired of my generation being blamed for 2004, for the fact that we're still in Iraq, for this year's clusterfuck, and whatever else goes wrong. Pretty damn easy to blame the people who have been broke and powerless, isn't it? Who had the LEAST to do with any of it. Posts like this just give ammunition to the "blame your children first" crowd.

[hell-bent]

167. So, these Obama supporters that

were Dean supporter in '04 took their marbles and went home when Dean didn't get the nod? Oh, so they let Kerry sink and thereby gave the Idiot four more years? Is this what will happen of Obama doesn't get the nomination? Sounds like these youthful supporters are not real Democrats to me. If they don't get their way, they are out of here! :wtf:

[Hippo_Tron]

194. Dean didn't have the recognition that Obama did

Dean definitely had an intense following among young people but it was largely from those who were already politically active. Obama's following is much more widespread than Dean's.

[L0oniX]

135. Nice kool aid post ...maybe a little too much LSD though.

[rolleitreks]

138. That's you opinion and wishful thinking, not analysis. This place is slipping. n/t

[PoliticalAmazon]

143. Obama's chances are MUCH higher than Hillary Clinton's chances

Hillary Clinton cannot win the general election.

She is so thoroughly loathed by the majority of rightwingers, that they would rather vote for Satan than Hillary Clinton. In addition, her campaign tactics (which many view as the same as the Bush Jr campaign tactics, which totally infuriated Dems during the 2000 and 2004 elections), have alienated many Democrats who themselves would rather vote for Satan than Hillary Clinton.

But here is the important part.

Not only would she not get the votes of the majority of rightwingers and many liberals, but she would be the best voter-registration incentive the GOP every experienced. Rightwingers who had never bothered to vote before would come down out of the hills to register to vote if it meant they could vote against Hillary Clinton. And, they may so much enjoy kicking Hillary in the metaphorical kiester in the voting booth, they might show up for future elections to see if it is as much fun kicking other Democrats in their metaphorical kiesters in the voting booth. This would negatively impact future elections, as these newly-registered Republicans continued to vote against all Democrats because they hate Hillary Clinton so much.

Indeed, at this point the only way John McCain can win is if Hillary Clinton is the Democratic Party candidate.

Why do you think rightwinger forces like Limbaugh have urged Republicans to vote in the Democratic primary for Hillary Clinton? Because they KNOW they can win against her as the Democratic candidate.

Even if she did become president, we would be stuck in another four years of Bush policies (she has endorsed almost all of his policies, despite our pleas with her to stand up for the American people and not cave to the neocons)AND another four years of investigations of the Clintons' actions in the White House. HRC has been an eager proponent of outsourcing jobs overseas, and the Clintons are very involved in sending American jobs to India. They have huge financial interest in it, in fact.

Also, we have the Nookiegate issue. As my midwestern mother would say, "A skunk doesn't change its stripes overnight," so we could look forward to Bill Clinton's continuing womanizing in the White House, with an anticipated Nookiegate II, Return of Nookiegate, and Nookiegate: The Horror Continues.

These are all reasons why Hillary Clinton is unsuitable for the Democratic Party's presidential candidate. In the first place, she can't win, and even if a miracle occurred and she did win, she would continue the destruction of our nation Bush Jr started.

[backscatter712]

145. *plonk*

[not_too_L8]

148. similar arguments could be made for Hillary

and from what I have read about 25% of Hillary supports say they will not vote for Obama...the real question is can we convince all dems, no matter which camp they support to vote for the dem nominee

[LSK]

156. why the hell would they vote in a primary but not a general?

This is ridiculous. Nobody ever votes in the primary while the vote in the General. If all these new voters are making an effort to go to caucases and primaries, they most certainly will vote in the General.

[totodeinhere]

160. Wrong. The economy might well be in such bad shape by November...

that any Dem including Obama will win. It might be just like 1932 all over again.

[Blue_Roses]

163. ...

[LWolf]

164. I'm a "progressive,"

if that means "liberal leftist," anyway, and I don't love him. I don't see anything "progressive" about him, unless you count the way his policies fit the orwellian "progressive policy institute."

[RedShoesBlueState]

177. You're correct; he will lose in the Fall

And one of the main reasons he will lose is that Obama supporters are not listening to average Americans -- they are only listening to other Obama supporters. If you talk to moderates of both parties, and to Independents, they have very strong reservations about him, and the Wright thing has hurt him very, very badly. I'm so disappointed and disgusted that my party's leaderhship didn't vet him more thoroughly, and didn't see this coming.

[NOLALady]

180. Obama's supporters are

average Americans.

[Asgaya Dihi]

181. Considering the numbers...

Obama has more donations coming in than anyone else and has for quite a while now, he gets them $50 at a time from a couple of million people where the other candidates are more dependent on special interests and big money donors. He's ahead in every measure including popular vote and that even including Florida and Michigan with him not even on the ballot in the last so getting zero votes there. Give him the undecided there since he wasn't on the ballot and he's ahead by even more.

So, if more widespread popular support than anyone else in both money and votes and that with less support from big money than most of the others doesn't make his supporters "average Americans", then exactly what would? The easy right wing slander about latte sipping rich kids just doesn't hold true and I'd suspect the vast majority of people slinging that talking point around already know it and find a way to justify the lie to themselves. Worked construction myself. They're trying to overturn the will of the people by simply disregarding them and deciding they don't matter.

Obama can win though his chances are lower after the recent hatchet job by some, Hillary can't. If she had won the nomination fair she would probably have had the support of most but she can't swiftboat her way into it then expect the same support. Nothing at all to do with "my guy" winning or not, I don't have one in the race I really like. She screwed up. I don't care if you hang a big D behind it, I don't vote for neocon tactics. Haven't yet and don't plan to start now.

[LVjinx]

191. An anti-war candidate CAN'T win against McCain.

All he has to do is paint him as the old, stereotypical weak-on-defense Democrat, an image we just FINALLY shook in 2006.

[Asgaya Dihi]

200. Horse crap ;)

The nation is largely against the war still and in spite of being sold the lie that the surge worked. That's one I can't believe we let them get away with, by the standards Bush himself set the surge failed. The military part was supposed to enable a reconciliation and progress which never happened and that progress was the measure the surge was sold on. Now we've let them retroactively adjust it to a simple "we paid them off and they stopped for a while" as the measure of success. Might help to share the facts with the people but still even without them, they don't think the war was worth it.

At this point I do expect we'll lose though and that under either candidate. Personally I think Obama would have been the better candidate and the Wright thing would have just blown over, if it wasn't for the sound bites from the Clinton supporters which we're sure to see again in a general election. Taken in context and given that some of it was actually a quote from a US Ambassador it wasn't actually so bad and could have been played down and put in context but that's not what those sound bites say and when dems said it they can't take it back for the general.

Hillary doesn't have a prayer. Some doubted if she was electable before but if she gets the nomination by swiftboating another dem, and at this point that's what it would be, she'll not only lose the black vote but she'll also lose much of the white progressive vote, we'll be facing an energized Clinton hating repub party with a crippled dem one.

Maybe we can pull it out but I don't see how. When Hillary started that kitchen sink strat and Obama supporters answered it in kind we lost, we just don't realize it yet. We've written the repubs best ads for them already and there's no taking it back just because the primary is over.

[NC_Nurse]

186. I disagree. He energizes a lot of folks. Gore and Kerry didn't do it as well.

Both were pretty stiff on the campaign trail. Gore has loosened up considerably since
and Kerry did improve but it wasn't enough. Obama is a natural. I think it will happen.

[RBInMaine]

189. You're full of crap !

[Alexander]

190. Translation: "My candidate's losing, so I'm going to throw a tantrum."

[Cha]

192. You're the crazy who's punching..so

get off your soapbox 'cause I don't think you have clue what you're talking about. For one thing you support a lying warmonger so that tells me you're not capable of seeing the whole picture.

[Hippo_Tron]

193. Not a flame, but here is why I strongly disagree with you

1) Primary turnout is MUCH MUCH lower than general election turnout. Most people who vote in general elections don't vote in primaries. I haven't seen the statistics but I would imagine that a high percentage of people who vote in primaries also vote in general elections.

Put another way, it's a hell of a lot harder to turn first time voters out for a primary than it is to turn out first time voters for a general election. The fact that Obama can turn out first time primary voters is evidence that favors his ability to win a general election.

2) There is no evidence to suggest that half of the Democratic Party will stay home or vote for McCain in November. Obama's issue positions are nearly identical to Hillary's and Democratic voters vote on the issues when it comes to the general election. They may like Hillary better than Obama but Obama is basically the same as Hillary and more importantly infinitely better than McLame on labor, the environment, the war, GLBT rights, women's rights, and pretty much everything else that the Democratic Party cares about. Anybody who is really a Democrat will see this.

3) I was in middle school in 2000 and I phone banked and knocked on doors for Kerry in 2004. I liked John Kerry a lot but I fit the mold of a typical Democrat. What typical Democrats like in a candidate and what swing voters like in a candidate is very different. That is why I think Obama is electable.

[RiverStone]

195. America does care and America has not had a candidate...

...like Obama for over a generation.

You are not factoring all the people across all walks and parties who have been sitting it out - until the election. Then you will see his true numbers - and his win in the GE!

[AmericanUnity]

196. IT'S PEOPLE LIKE YOU WHO WILL CAUSE HIM TO LOSE- HE WON FAIR AND SQUARE - YOU SHOULD BACK THE DEM

[TK421]

199. WHY ARE YOU SHOUTING?!!!!!11212

WE ARE NOT HARD OF HEARING!!!!22213

[IndependentDem]

201. and how exactly does this not also apply to Clinton?

with clinton you could also add in (or subtract) all of the voters that will feel disenfranchised because the dem nominee IS NOT the candidate that won the popular vote and the majority of delegates in the primary process. Also, if you are assuming that half the democratic voters stay home in protest than you are assuming that half of the Democrats are self-righteous assholes who think that their opinions/feelings are more important than what is best for america. I'm sorry but your argument makes absolutely no sense.

Anyone who does not vote for the democratic nominee is voting for the McCain- period.

[TheDonkey]

203. That was not an effective argument that Hillary has any better chance than Gore, Obama, or Kerry

but it is disturbing that you do not care how right a certain candidate is for the country and still rally against him.

[walldude]

204. I'll be there for whatever candidate..

he question is apparently will you? You had your say, you stated your opinion as fact, now go and vote for the nominee no matter who it is.

[guruoo]

206. K&R

[Pisces]

207. THose people were to young to vote for Kerry and Gore, no one has electrified the youth like Obama

[Skip Intro]

208. Except Red Bull.

[gamot]

222. Ditto Pink Tiger

The pattern is becoming more and more distinct about Obama:
a skillful but certainly politicians, employing the same low-down politics.
I especially don't like his effort to block MI,FL voters.
Found a good collection here:
- The "I didn't know" pattern
http://noquarterusa.net/blog/2008/03/24/barack-i-didnt-know-obama/
- "Square Pegs and Round Holes"
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AqUVSDEwNgw

[PinkTiger]

223. Thanks..,,,

Actually, the flames weren't as bad as I expected. I've been watching the posts grow; I never dreamed I'd get so many responses.
We will just have to see.

I didn't say I wouldn't vote for Obama, either, people. I just said he won't win if he is the nominee. I like him just fine and I am not a racist. OK?
But I live in a region of the country where people are racist and bigoted, and I hear what they say. I can't change them. You can't change them. They all just have to die out, unfortunately. I wish we were ready for someone like Obama. But I understand the fear of the people in middle America, even if I don't agree with it.