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dsc Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Apr-30-04 06:02 PM
Original message
Why I criticise Kerry
Four years ago this month my dad took me on a little drive. He told me many things I didn't want to hear. Some of them made me angry. It would have been easier for him to tell me what I wanted to hear. Instead he told me what I needed to hear. This month I celebrated 4 years of sobriety.

It would be much, much, much easier and much, much, much more pleasant for me to tell you what you want to hear. But Kerry is our only nominee. Failure is not an option. Our country needs Bush to lose at least as much as I needed to stop drinking. Thus I will continue to tell you what you need to hear, and not necessarily what you want to hear.

By any measure things are not going all that well. Kerry is doing well in the area of raising money. That is it. Time is running out for him to fix this. Bush is organizing like mad, as another poster has pointed out. In states like mine the only advantage we tend to have is organization and grassroots. I see even that advantage slipping away.

We have had a few solid weeks of very bad news for Bush. The 9/11 Commission has been bad for Bush, the war has been bad for Bush, Richard Clark has been bad for Bush, the economy has been bad for Bush, yet Kerry actually lost ground during this time. This is down right scary. As Bush's approval drops to around 50%, Kerry isn't gaining.

All of the following are problems. Kerry's ads are not very good. The people who Kerry is targetting, the elusive swing voters, aren't impressed. The ads don't have enough information. The positive ads took too long to appear. Some of this is MoveOn's and the Media Fund's fault. Their ads aren't that great either. I have seen virtually every ad put up as I get TV out of both Erie PA and Cleveland OH. Bush's ads are substantially better than either Kerry's or our idependent groups. This can't go on. This needs fixed.

There appears to be no effort at all by this campaign to help traditional Democratic groups spread the message. Time and again I have been at meeting of people discussing increasing voter turnout in Cleveland (mostly gay but some straight too) and time and again, there has been no Kerry presence. No Kerry presence at the Stonewall Democrats. No Kerry presence at the HRC MeetUP. No Kerry presence at DFA meetings. Many Ohioans are still very bitter over Gore not campaigning here in October (a defensible decision which in hindsight was wrong). The base needs to know it won't happen again. People are really beginning to wonder what is up.

Kerry isn't making the sale. I know alot of marginal type voters. And many of them are very anti war. Many of them are certain Bush is a liar. Many of them want the man out. But, unlike us, they are not so anti Bush that just anyone will do. They need to know that the person they are choosing will be better (or at least have a reasonable belief he is). Kerry isn't making that cut. Bush still gets a lot of credit from these people for his handling of 9/11. Many are honestly afraid that Kerry wouldn't have done as well. He needs to make that sale.

You are welcome to take the above as the bitter ramblings of a Dean supporter if that is what you wish to do. Just like I could have taken what my dad said as the angry ramblings of someone who I had let down. I thank God every day I didn't do that. I pray to God now that the people around Kerry don't do it now. Just like I wouldn't be sober now had I stayed in denial, Kerry will not win if his campaign stays in denial now. It is as simple as that.
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ChompySnack Donating Member (612 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Apr-30-04 06:08 PM
Response to Original message
1. Nothing.
There is nothing. And I mean nothing more important than removing Bush from office. We have been in the mind set we are in on DU for many months, it takes a while to ramp up public opinion to a particular viewpoint. I don't like waiting either, but this must be done slowly and deliberately. I think Kerry has started well, he has taken away *everything* that Bush can run on. He is running on the "stay the course" argument, nothing else. We still have 5, count them, 5 months left. Peaking too early would be a mistake.

I am concerned as well, but we are just along for the ride. I've contributed money to Kerry till it hurt. He is our best hope, please don't diss him.
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Donating Member (549 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Apr-30-04 06:09 PM
Response to Original message
2. Actually, Dean Supporters Are The Best Judges
We've already lived through this once, with Dean.

The ads sucked, he didn't hold his leads, he didn't connect when it was important.

For the sake of our future I sure as hell hope Kerry learned more from Dean than how to tap the internet for donations.
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dsc Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Apr-30-04 06:12 PM
Response to Reply #2
4. Yes
You have some valid points. Dean did have a serious problem with his ads. And now Kerry is getting the same kind of media treatment that Dean got with the attendent results. Ad wise Kerry needs to have a really good humorous ad. Perferably a positive one but negative will do.
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HalfManHalfBiscuit Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Apr-30-04 06:15 PM
Response to Reply #2
6. Damn good point
I'm a solid Kerry guy, perhaps somewhat blindly.

But, while not criticism per se, your post is about as constructive as it gets.
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Kahuna Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Apr-30-04 06:24 PM
Response to Reply #2
11. Wrong lesson learned from that Deanie.. The lesson of the Deanies...
Edited on Fri Apr-30-04 06:24 PM by Kahuna
is something I cautioned you all about time after time after time after time. All of my good advice was totally discounted because you all were caught up in your moment and didn't want to accept advice or criticism.

The Deanies demanded red meat over and over and over. That last bit of red meat in Iowa finally sealed your fate. If Deanies want to caution Kerry against throwing out too much red meat, they are in a postion to give that kind of advice. But, some Deanies aparently haven't learned from their mistakes and want red meat from Kerry. :eyes: They have learned jack.
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Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-01-04 02:24 AM
Response to Reply #11
54. Deleted message
Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.
 
surfermaw Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Apr-30-04 10:20 PM
Response to Reply #2
35. Dean is out of the picture as a candidate, but we need his help
Dean, help is needed with the grassroots. But we should stop trying to bring Dean back, some are trying this, keep it up and you are going to have Bush back...Forget the Doctor, I liked him too, but with the conditions we have now, Kerry is the man with the experience and knowledge of government we need.. and I am a Edwards supporter, so if I can fight for Kerry, the Dean people can to.
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nothingshocksmeanymore Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Apr-30-04 06:11 PM
Response to Original message
3. I don't fault you for this but ANY Democrat has an uphill climb at
Edited on Fri Apr-30-04 06:12 PM by nothingshocksmeanymo
striking just the right note with the public given the media climate.
The same press that made Dean's scream larger than life is taking a 30 year old medal incident and making it a character issue.

The same press that is idolizing a football player as a hero for giving up comfort for Iraq is ironically not noticing the corrollary between Kerry giving up that same level of comfort while Bush hid behind a cushy assignment in the National Guard that he didn't even show up for.

Blame Kerry for being too cautious, but to claim he is in denial is a bit of a stretch.

Kerry seems to be damned if he does and damned if he doesn't. He can take similar position to your candidate on gay marriage but Kerry is persona non grata when he is caught in the political crossfire Dean was NOT in due to not being the presumptive nominee even though there are plenty examples of Dean backing off or retooling his own positions in order to please the press as well.

Look, the way I see it..there really are only TWO CHOICES in this election..Bush or Kerry...if one can think of a reason on earth why Bush should get 4 more years, then continue to detract from Kerry.

If not, it is as incumbent on US to get people on board with Kerry as it is on Kerry.
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dsc Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Apr-30-04 07:09 PM
Response to Reply #3
24. Dean wasn't in the crossfire?
In 2000, Dean was offered the same senario as Kerry in regards to the amendment. He was facing, in a matter of months, a reelection bid in which he had to gain 50% of the vote. He didn't endorse the amendment which he could have done. Kerry did. That is different. You can claim it isn't until the cows come home, but it isn't.

As to the rest. I really think I went out of my way in that post to point out it wasn't all Kerry's fault. I really do.
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Dr Fate Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Apr-30-04 06:13 PM
Response to Original message
5. You, the media & the GOP all have their reasons for attacking Democrats...
Edited on Fri Apr-30-04 06:14 PM by Dr Fate
...I could care less what your motive is for attacking democrats, any more than I care why the media or the GOP does it.

I did not support Kerry either- I supported Clark. One thing I NEVER DID was to join the GOP & media in attacking DEMS like Dean, Edwards OR Kerry.

Why dont you just sit back and let your apparent brothers-in-arms, the GOP and the media, attack Kerry- (I am not saying you are a Republican, I am saying that you are joining them and the media in attacking the nominee- the company you choose to keep is your own choice)

Isnt a 2 to one fight against Democrats unfair enough w/o making it 3 to one???

Can you at least let the media & the the GOP do the attacking- and let us at least TRY to unseat George for a little bit of change?
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dsc Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Apr-30-04 06:19 PM
Response to Reply #5
9. fine
When he loses, and you can count on him doing so if he keeps running this campaign, then don't blame me. I have been down this road before. I vividly remember Dukakis.
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Dr Fate Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Apr-30-04 06:30 PM
Response to Reply #9
13. So does Kerry. In what ways are they similar???
Hey- I'm sorry for my harsh response.

But I dont have time to discern MOTIVES for attacks- all I have time to do is defelct,and attack back.

I am trying to get it across to the non-Democratic left that YOU ARE NOT DOING US ANY FAVORS.

Instead of a negative post, how bout start a letter to the editor writing campaign, or a thread that takes suggesstions on how Kerry can improve- then e-mail it to Kerry, or Air America...

ANYTHING is better than the same old negative threads...

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Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Apr-30-04 06:36 PM
Response to Reply #13
15. Deleted message
Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.
 
Dr Fate Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Apr-30-04 09:55 PM
Response to Reply #15
31. If the shoe dont fit, then dont wear it!!!
Edited on Fri Apr-30-04 10:05 PM by Dr Fate
This is a message board- I am talking to ANYONE who happens to read my post, not just you...

There are plenty of people on this board who ARE indedd, the non-Democratic left- I'm glad you are not one of them.

If you love DEMS so much, then start a POSITIVE thread about the Democratic nominee, John Kerry, for a change...

BTW- instead of cussing me out- why not finish your point about how Kerry is like Dukakis- you made a negative comparison to the DEM nominee- now back it up.
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dsc Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Apr-30-04 10:13 PM
Response to Reply #31
34. Ok here goes
Just like with Dukakis campaign no one could ever tell them anything no matter what. When we said, stand up for yourself we were told you aren't a good Democrat. You are negative. We won the primary. We know what we are doing. Any of that sound even a little bit familiar.
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no name no slogan Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Apr-30-04 10:24 PM
Response to Reply #34
36. You're right, and your criticism is valid
I worked hard for Dukakis in 1988-- it was one of my first campaigns that year, which was a bad year for Democrats in Minnesota (my state).

I supported Dukakis at my precinct caucus and even organized two precincts for him. I went to the state convention as a Dukakis delegate, too. That campaign also had the blind arrogance that I see in so much of the Kerry campaign. Dukakis locked up the nomination by Super Tuesday, too, and was up by five points before the convention.

He came out of the convention in August with a solid 12-point lead, which his campaign sat on. Unfortunately, the Bush I team (those who brought you the Willie Horton ads) were scheming all along, and tore Dukakis a new one. Dukakis and his team, in their arrogance, continued to campaign as the "electable" Democrat who wouldn't change the "Reagan Revolution" much, but would at least put a smile on its face. Not only did the lead evaporate, but Bush pulled ahead by nearly 10 points.

However, in the last half of October, Dukakis found his voice, and started talking like a populist. He started to close the huge gap he had with Bush I, but to no avail. He got crushed in November.

I sincerely hope that Kerry does NOT run the same kind of campaign Dukakis ran. Just because you get 35% of the primary vote does NOT give you a mandate-- you STILL need the other 65% of the party on board to win. Kerry's campaign had best keep that in mind, especially given the stakes this year.
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Dr Fate Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Apr-30-04 10:30 PM
Response to Reply #36
38. Right about the Duke, yes, but Kerry?
You did not illustrate direct comparisons to the Kerry campaign.

I think the comparison is tenuous at best- I hope I'm right.
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dsc Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Apr-30-04 10:42 PM
Response to Reply #38
41. Well Gee
Look at the reaction to my post here. This is nothing like what the Duke campaign did, no not at all.
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Dr Fate Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Apr-30-04 10:50 PM
Response to Reply #41
42. I am not on the Kerry campaign yet.
But I will be this Summer- how bout you? Will you volunteer & boost DEMS, or just complain about them on DU? (This questions is for ANYONE reading this, by the way, it's not aimed at you personally.)

Incidentally- I dont "get" your post. All I said was that you and the other guy are RIGHT about what Dukakis did.

You are also right RIGHT that Kerry should not do what he did.

It is certainly debatable that Kerry is "tough"- and doing better everyday- unlike the Duke...
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dsc Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Apr-30-04 10:53 PM
Response to Reply #42
44. I take it you didn't read my response to volunteering
please do so as I am watching Nightline and am thus busy.
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Dr Fate Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Apr-30-04 10:56 PM
Response to Reply #44
46. I did & I mentioned for you to disregard. Peace out.
n/t
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Dr Fate Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Apr-30-04 10:27 PM
Original message
Have you volunteered for the Kerry campaign, only to be turned away?
Do that 1st, then tell me they wont listen to your ideas & suggestions.

DU is not the Kerry campaign- its not even Democrats anymore(it used to be, so I still hold on for the "Golden Days" of DU to come back)

You can show how DEMS how to stand up on the issues in your own community- if you think the DEMS at the top dont take notice of local organizations that do particularly well, you are wrong.

Perhaps you already do these things- do you?

Look- constructive criticism is fine- perhaps I'm a little out of line with my responses- but I'm just sick of the negative posts- Tell us ways we can make it work, rather than just merely itemizing the problems.

As far as Kerry not standing up- well, I can say that we all want Kerry to say & do different things- but Dukakis?

ABSOLUTELY no comparison- can Kerry get tougher? Sure- and he is, every day. Did you see him on his recent TV appearences- He was one tough customer- very agressive and not backing down- Did you hear any of the clips from his speeches- like ones played on Air America?

We never saw that kind of fire-back & agressivness with the Duke- Kerry is already showing that that mistake wont be repeated.



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dsc Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Apr-30-04 10:33 PM
Response to Original message
39. It is a little hard to volunteer for a campaign with no headquarters
I live it what is supposed to be one of the targetted states. There isn't a Kerry headquarters in my county, in any county that is adjoining mine and in my state (there may be one in Erie Co PA). I am not even sure there is one in Cuyahoga County, a county he needs to win by 150k. What I have done is all of the following. Volunteered for my local Congressional candidate, joined the Cleveland Stonewall Democrats, and the HRC. All of these are working to Kerry's benefit one would hope. BTW I drove 70 MILES ONE WAY after a day of work to try to help out the HRC. So I think I am doing my part Dr. Fate.
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Dr Fate Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Apr-30-04 10:52 PM
Response to Reply #39
43. Glad to hear it...
...so disregard where I asked you again.

I have a big problem with the NUMEROUS DUers who think all they have to do is post at DU to be an "activist"...once again, glad you are not one of them.
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Dr Fate Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Apr-30-04 10:27 PM
Response to Reply #34
37. Have you volunteered for the Kerry campaign, only to be turned away?
Do that 1st, then tell me they wont listen to your ideas & suggestions.

DU is not the Kerry campaign- its not even Democrats anymore(it used to be, so I still hold on for the "Golden Days" of DU to come back)

You can show how DEMS how to stand up on the issues in your own community- if you think the DEMS at the top dont take notice of local organizations that do particularly well, you are wrong.

Perhaps you already do these things- do you?

Look- constructive criticism is fine- perhaps I'm a little out of line with my responses- but I'm just sick of the negative posts- Tell us ways we can make it work, rather than just merely itemizing the problems.

As far as Kerry not standing up- well, I can say that we all want Kerry to say & do different things- but Dukakis?

ABSOLUTELY no comparison- can Kerry get tougher? Sure- and he is, every day. Did you see him on his recent TV appearences- He was one tough customer- very agressive and not backing down- Did you hear any of the clips from his speeches- like ones played on Air America?

We never saw that kind of fire-back & agressivness with the Duke- Kerry is already showing that that mistake wont be repeated.



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AP Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Apr-30-04 07:04 PM
Response to Reply #5
23. This is a bullshit post.
Good dems can have legitimate criticisms. And if Kerry is a good candidate, invective doesn't have to be the rebuttal.
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dsc Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Apr-30-04 07:14 PM
Response to Reply #23
26. thank you
I honestly appreciate that.
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Dr Fate Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Apr-30-04 10:03 PM
Response to Reply #23
32. The GOP the media & ther Non-democrat left all share one attribute-
They constantly attack DEMS, and they never say anything positive about Democrats.

I am talking about people on the left who are NOT voting Democrat and people who activly campaign against Democrats.

I see them on this board everyday- they proudly declare it.

If the non-Democratic left here at "Democratic"underground does not want me to compare them to the GOP & media, then they should stop acting like them...

There are more positive ways to point DEMS in right direction than by complaining, or making excuses for why we should attack our own man...

I dont see enough of that here, so that is why my post was confrontational- the constant negativity against Democrats has GOT to go...
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AP Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Apr-30-04 10:37 PM
Response to Reply #32
40. I don't disagree that there are many on DU who are really interested in
seeing the Democrats lose, but hide those desires behind a facade of being a Democrat. However, you can't go around defending Kerry like EVERY person who criticizes the slightest thing about him is one of those people.

I'm sure the people who run the Kerry campaign would love to know what people HONESTLY think (and I have no doubt that dsc is being honest).

Why do you want to scare all these people who would give honest advice from DU?

Furthermore, what is so hard about identifying the covert RW'ers from the honest DU'ers?
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Dr Fate Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Apr-30-04 10:55 PM
Response to Reply #40
45. I concede that I'm being a bit of a jerk.
I also concede that I am SO frustrated with the disruptors and "principled Liberals" that I somtimes lump honest, capital "D" DUers in with them...

But I will say that we should start threads on WAYS to change it- like local volunteerism, for an example- rather than just listing gripes...

Doc
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Donating Member ( posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-01-04 03:33 PM
Response to Reply #32
68. I am a Democrat who has the same opinion as DSC
Edited on Sat May-01-04 03:34 PM by 56kid
in his original post & so when you say that - the constant negativity against Democrats has GOT to go... my response is that I agree and I perceive your post in post 5 as being an example of constant negativity against Democrats that has got to go.
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Donating Member ( posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-01-04 03:16 PM
Response to Reply #5
67. He's not attacking Kerry
at least from my reading of this particular post.

From advice to criticism to attack is a continuum & I understand that some advice or criticism is really a disguised attack, but I don't think DSC is attacking in this particular post, he is giving advice.

That's my perception of it. Yours is different obviously.
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Old and In the Way Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Apr-30-04 06:17 PM
Response to Original message
7. "Kerry isn't making the sale."
No, it's you that's trying to sell it and I'm not buying. But better luck next time.
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Classical_Liberal Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-01-04 06:00 AM
Response to Reply #7
59. DSC has been a Duer as long as I can remember
where as I just noticed you a couple of weeks ago.

To accuse him/her of disrupting is way beyond insane.
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Kahuna Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Apr-30-04 06:18 PM
Response to Original message
8. Nothing wrong with critisizing Kerry. But, why do you "have to" ..
do it here on a public forum where your words could be used to show that "Democrats" aren't behind Kerry? There is no good reason in my opinion for you or anybody to base Kerry on a public forum.
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buddy22600 Donating Member (426 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Apr-30-04 06:23 PM
Response to Original message
10. First off, congratulations on your sobriety
second, it is early and there is a long way to go. Kerry will get there at the right time
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dsc Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Apr-30-04 09:06 PM
Response to Reply #10
30. thank you
and I hope so. Kerry is running out of time. 6 months seems like a really long time but it terms of getting 50 million votes it is no time at all.
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H2O Man Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Apr-30-04 06:25 PM
Response to Original message
12. Here's some sobering news ....
the ONLY choice this fall is between bush and Kerry. You might wish it were different, but it's not. And to pretend at this late date that there is any other option is foolishness of the most disturbed type.
I'm glad you quit drinking. I think everyone should refrain from being intoxicated at least until the election. I believe that if we were to practice self-discipline, we can have a land-slide victory.
Self-discipline also means that if you are at a meeting, you do not waste time thinking about "are democrats here?" My friend, this election is not about some "them" -- it is about you (in your case), just as it is about me (in mine). We do not need "leaders." We do not need race horses. We need work horses. You do it. Then, after Kerry is elected, you will be in a position to take full advantage of the ORGANIZING that you have done, and to keep the movement alive. Kerry will not transform America. We must transform ourselves .... just as your quitting drinking was a transformation. You've had four years to get on steady feet. Now get to work, and make your father proud.
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dsc Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Apr-30-04 06:32 PM
Response to Reply #12
14. I have done plenty of work
but Kerry needs to lead us. We aren't psychics. At the very same HRC MeetUp that there was no Kerry presence there was a man from Americans Coming Together. He signed us up to help register gay and lesbian voters.
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AP Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Apr-30-04 06:37 PM
Response to Original message
16. You might make it sound worse than it is.
I think Kerry's ad with vietnam footage is very effective and I saw firsthand it's effect on voters in primary state. That commercial seared an indentity into people's heads which really got them to vote for him.

Also, today's Wilogren article notwithstanding, I'm pretty sure that I've seen first hand that Kerry is doing pretty well with black and latino voters.

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dsc Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Apr-30-04 06:43 PM
Response to Reply #16
19. I hope you are right
I really do. But the ad is a perfect example. Where has it been? As you correctly point out it was run often during the primaries. Yet it wasn't run at all in his first ad barrage. He will do well amongst those minorities who do vote. The question is how many will vote. We are trying to make it alot.
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AP Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Apr-30-04 07:02 PM
Response to Reply #19
22. Why run it now? Dean ran ads in Texas. What good did that do him?
Edited on Fri Apr-30-04 07:03 PM by AP
Just because they aren't running ads today doesn't mean they will not run them when they need them.

They ran that add in the primaries and, I for one, think it's one of the biggestr reasons he rolled through late January and February.

They have that commericial ready to go when they need it and I'm sure the smart people who figured that one out have some other shit up their sleeves which they'll use when they need it.

Think of it this way. Bush is spending millions now, Kerry not much. What is bush getting out of it? 46:44? Is he getting bang for his buck? And, furthermore, Kerry is outraising him too.

Let Bush shoot his wad now. Kerry is going to bring it on at the right time.
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dsc Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Apr-30-04 07:12 PM
Response to Reply #22
25. because people are starting to form their opinions of Kerry now
The vast majority of the voters he is targetting have no clue who Kerry is, what Kerry has done, or what he believes. He is in the process of being defined, by Bush's ads, as a man who flip flops and is weak on defense. Once that sets in, the ad may well be too late.
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Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Apr-30-04 06:38 PM
Response to Original message
17. Deleted message
Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.
 
Mountainman Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Apr-30-04 06:39 PM
Response to Original message
18. I got 20 years and here is something you might not want to hear.
The coming presidential election will be between Kerry and Bush. The political things you do either help Bush and hurt Kerry or vise versa.

So I hope you choose wisely. I remember during my first years of sobriety how I had to learn the lesson of acceptance over and over.
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dsc Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Apr-30-04 06:54 PM
Response to Reply #18
21. Please show me one word
just one word from that post that in any way, shape, or form, states or implies that I am not voting for or working for Kerry. Just one. And yes, I want it quoted from that post.
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dsc Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Apr-30-04 06:52 PM
Response to Original message
20. For those who think I am insufficiently working for Kerry
On Tues day this week, I worked in what is basicly an inner city elementary school. I subbed for 2 hours in a 3rd grade, 2 hours in a 6th grade, and 2 hours in a kindergarden. I then went on a couple of errands and got home around 4 o clock. I cooked a quick meal and cleaned up after it. I took about a half hour off and left out at 5:30. Then I drove not 10, not 20, not 30, not 40, not 50, not 60, but 70 miles ONE WAY so I could go to a HRC Meet Up largley to help register voters in and around Cleveland. Now there is no other race of any import to me that I would be helping by doing that other than Fingerhut's Senate race which is a very, very, very long shot. In short, to the extent than any candidate benefited by this, Kerry did. But no, I don't care about him, not at all.
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H2O Man Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Apr-30-04 08:16 PM
Response to Reply #20
27. It's okay if you don't care for Kerry.
The work you are doing isn't only for Kerry. It's for you, for your family & friends, for your community, state, the trees, the water, and the air you are breathing right now. Listen, I'm not the knower of all, but I want to tell you something important. People have not always lived like they do today in America. In fact, a few centuries ago, the people such as the Iroquois lived at a higher spiritual level than we do today. Not a perfect society, but one built upon community, cooperation, sharing, and a search for truth. People often say "you can't go back," but as my cousin tells me, that means you can't go back to telling the truth, for caring about those around you, for accepting and respecting those different than you. Yes, we can go back to that. Yes, we can. But, my good friend, you do not need a democrat or a leader at your meetings. The opportunity is waiting for you, and I think that one a very real level, you know that. You don't need me to tell you, any more than you really needed your Dad to tell you to sober up. You knew. My friend, if you could quit drinking, you can step up at these meetings. Don't support Kerry for Kerry's values; support him for your values. Do you see this? We are at a time in history -- for oh so real -- where we do not have the luxury of NOT doing MORE. And no one can do that DRUNK! Your father told you that. In order to do more, you must be more. You are there. Now. So, again, get to work. I know you do work: that's why I'm asking you to do more.
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Redneck Socialist Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Apr-30-04 08:43 PM
Response to Original message
28. Kerry's doing OK
for the moment. I agree with your critique of his ads, but it is very early still and bush has been doing a pretty good job shooting himself in the foot. Kerry is sharpening his rhetoric and the volume of his attacks has increased. I say again it is still early. This race is going to go down to the wire. Does Kerry need to improve in some areas? Sure, but now is the time work that out. I am pretty confident that he will be rocking come October.

BTW I'm not surprised at the response your post has received. If you point out that Kerry's shoe is untied some folks react like you just tried to chop his leg off with an axe.
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AmyStrange Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Apr-30-04 08:52 PM
Response to Original message
29. Excellent thread...

and a very well thought out original message DSC.

Too bad your constructive post is getting slammed by the very people who should be listening, but I guess they figure that by slamming all apparent and imaginary disent they will get more people to vote for Kerry. I wonder how that's workin' for em? I don't see the poll numbers going up anywhere in any kind of significant way.

And as far as other folks using the DU as an example of how the Democratic party is divided. Hahahahahahahahahaha. Give me a break. The democratic party IS divided. That is the problem. Pretending it isn't doesn't help bring the party together. Some folks don't give a rat's ass about SCOTUS appointments. Using that is a reason why we should all pull together and vote for Kerry isn't going to pull in those folks. I think the SCOTUS scare people need to put another record on the turntable.


((((HUGz)))) to you and all the "real" Kerry supporters and I hope they listen to what you say. It'll be a good beginning to a wonderful ending in November.

Keep up the good work DSC. I'm pulling for you all the way down the line in all your endeavors. Maybe I can pull some friendly fire away from you with this post,



sig:
"The Truth knows no master" - AmyStrange said to me in a dream

10) And best of all, check these out:

the "First Seven Days Underground" by Skinner:
http://www.democraticunderground.com/articles/01/01/010127_7days.html
mirror pages:
http://du.seattleactivist.org/DU-JAN-27-2001-Skinner-7days-1.html
http://du.seattleactivist.org/DU-JAN-27-2001-Skinner-7days-2.html
http://du.seattleactivist.org/DU-JAN-27-2001-Skinner-7days-3.html
http://du.seattleactivist.org/DU-JAN-27-2001-Skinner-7days-4.html


the best "unofficial" DU slang Dictionary in the world:
http://DUG.SeattleActivist.org/





Dave (AmyStrange.com) Ayotte
Please, regularly check the One Missing Person (is one person too many) searchable website for the latest (and archived) missing person news stories:

http://NEWS.OneMissingPerson.org/


Serious serial killer news and
discussion at the "Serial Killer Cafe":
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Dr Fate Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Apr-30-04 10:08 PM
Response to Reply #29
33. Question- do you say "keep up the good work" to DUers...
Edited on Fri Apr-30-04 10:13 PM by Dr Fate
...who post positive things about Kerry?

Constructive criticism is a wonderful thing, but Christ, somtimes that is ALL I see at DU- some of it, not so constructive....

And BTW, why would anyone at Democraticunderground need to convince other posters to vote for Kerry? Are you suggesting that (GASP)there are people here who oppose him and who activley campaign against him???

Could THIS be whats is frustrating so many people, who thought they were posting at a pro-Democratic safe-haven??

- not HERE at a DEMOCRATIC website- tell me no!!!
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virtualobserver Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Apr-30-04 11:14 PM
Response to Reply #33
47. Telling the emperor that he is wearing clothes......
serves no one.

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AmyStrange Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-01-04 03:11 AM
Response to Reply #47
57. it gives the "pretend" Kerry supporters...

nothing to do which is why they flock to these post like bats to blood...

d
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AmyStrange Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-01-04 02:56 AM
Response to Reply #33
55. yes i do

i said as much in my post.

"real" Kerry suporters know I did,

d
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Leilani Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Apr-30-04 11:16 PM
Response to Original message
48. Hey dsc, I defend your right to offer constructive criticism!
I thought that is what we are all about! We are not mindless bots!!

To think that free speech is not allowed here is silly.

I thought dsc s post was constructive; he was not putting Kerry down.. he was talking about the campaign, & whether or not it has been effective. And plenty of people with a lot more knowledge & experience than us are saying the same thing.

I read that every Sunday the Bushies get together & decide the talking points for the week, trying to do to Kerry what they did to Gore.

Where is the Dem team? I see Wes Clark a lot. I see Terry McCauliffe out there when things reach critical mass. There should be a strong Kerry team, made up of Senators, Congress people, Governors, Dem political pundits. They should have a coordinated message & they should be everywhere.

Commercials: Kerry should not be sitting on his money...he should use it to introduce himself to voters, before the Repubs finish ruining him. Besides, if he is doing well against Bush, there will be plenty more money. Nothing suceeds like sucess.

I would also like to see a few bold moves. So far, all I see is Kerry is not Bush.

Hope I have not offended, but this election is too important to lose.
And there is quite a bit of criticism at the Kerry site, so I do not think it should be prohibited here.

Congrats dsc on your life changes, & your courage in giving up drinking!





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dsc Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Apr-30-04 11:30 PM
Response to Reply #48
49. Thank you
For both your defense and for your congraduations. I sincerly hope Kerry doesn't wind up being our Neil Kinnock to Bush being John Major. Historically an unpopular incumbent usually loses but in many senses we are in the middle of a war. I really don't think that hatred of Bush is enough to carry us over the finish line.
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Leilani Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Apr-30-04 11:57 PM
Response to Reply #49
50. I agree with that analysis
If it was a bad economy only, like it was for Bush I, people would think nothing of voting Shrub out.

But 9/11 changed everything. Many people are spooked..of course, Bush encourages that fear...& many people are happy with the job Bush has done on homeland security. They figure we have not been attacked again.

Also, because of the war in Iraq, many people are afraid to change the President. Even though it has been a COMPLETE disaster, voters always give the benefit to Repubs on military matters.

I have advocated putting Wes Clark on the ticket, to try & neutalize this military deficit the Dems have. I thought Kerry s Vietnam history would solve this problem, but it has been neutralized by the Repubs assaults on medals vs ribbons, Vietnam Vets against the War, etc.

Hatred will not carry us to victory...Kerry needs to offer positives to motivate people to vote for him.

I hope there is strong organization on college campuses. Students need to know if Bush is elected a draft may be coming, & young women need to remember they are 1 Supreme away from losing choice on abortion.
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IndianaGreen Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-01-04 12:16 AM
Response to Original message
51. John Kerry is not an American Zapatero, which is quite unfortunate for us
If John Kerry were like Spanish Prime Minister Jose Luis Rodriguez Zapatero, he would have pledged to withdraw US troops from Iraq the moment he takes the oath of office and he would be supporting same sex marriage.

Zapatero is a true progressive!
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dsc Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-01-04 12:46 AM
Response to Reply #51
52. Zapatero is supporting same sex marriage?
That is pretty surprising given how conservative socially Spain is.
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IndianaGreen Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-01-04 01:11 AM
Response to Reply #52
53. Yes, Zapatero has called for legislation allowing for same sex marriage
Zapatero is a Socialist and as a Socialist he believes in equality for all the people!

This will be interesting since the Spanish Catholic Church is controlled by Opus Dei and it has a long history of support for Fascism and anti-Semitism.

Gay marriage rights lead Spanish PM's drive for sexual equality

Giles Tremlett in Madrid
Friday April 16, 2004
The Guardian


The incoming prime minister, José Luis Rodríguez Zapatero, set Spain on a radical course of social change yesterday by promising to legalise gay marriage and amend the constitution to give women the equal right of succession to the throne.

<snip>

"It is time to bring to an end, once and for all, the intolerable discrimination still suffered by many Spaniards exclusively by virtue of their sexual preferences," he said.

"Homosexuals and transsexuals deserve the same public consideration as heterosexuals and have the right to live freely the life that they themselves have chosen.

"We will recognise, on an equal basis, their right to marriage, with the consequent effects on labour rights, inheritance and social security protection," he added.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/gayrights/story/0,12592,1192987,00.html
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AmyStrange Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-01-04 03:08 AM
Response to Original message
56. Why "pretend" Kerry Supporters don't support you...

they don't really support you or kerry. They just enjoy being mean... and being mean in Kerry's name is their only legal loophole for not being tombstoned here in the DU.

Can you imagine one of us saying some of the things the "pretend" pro-Kerry folks have said to you here in your thread?

It's almost as if they are subconsciously working to NOT get Kerry elected... hmmm,

d
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Classical_Liberal Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-01-04 06:06 AM
Response to Reply #56
60. I personally wonder if some of them are pretending to be dems.
.
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Lexingtonian Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-01-04 03:36 AM
Response to Original message
58. Well, it's not 1988 anymore
and the point of the 'softer nicer' Dukakis campaign was to snag the votes of the swing vote- the conservative FDR (aka 'Reagan') Democrats, who were on the whole nice elderly people then. They voted in some more Democrats in 1990, went to Perot in 1992, stayed home in 1994, and as a voter demographic are now essentially gone off into the Great Blue Yonder. At the time the Party was openly hostage to them.

For another thing, Bush's nationwide approval number tends to be spot on as the statewide Bush approval number in the major swing states. Higher in the solid Red States, lower in the solid Blue States. Btw, he hit 50% in early December. His 'hard' approval number (the one that is the ceiling in actual voting at equal turnout) has dropped about 1% per month, in line with his reelect numbers, and a very soft boost but relatively large one was imposed on the 'approval' ratings by the Hussein capture and the vacuous happy talk on economic numbers. His real approval rating is 45%-46% and we can't squeeze it down much further- the 'culture split' is such that his approval may get unbelievably soft with 5%-10% of people, yet these conservative leaners will ultimately not let go until after the election.

I can understand about the Kerry campaign not wanting to do too much in April/May. Bush can and will easily flip positions on many or most issues between now and August. People get sick of hard campaigning- I know I only listened to any of it for two or three weeks after Labor Day in 2000 and had burnout, and so did everyone else I knew- and I don't live in a swing state at all.

No matter what Kerry does, The People knows Bush better and Kerry is more of a gamble simply for the fact of Bush holding the office for 3.5 or 4 years. No matter what we do or say, the November election will be a referendum on Bush. Kerry obviously has no intention of getting between The People and the truth about Bush. In fact, the Bush people would love to have Kerry engaging in full. They may suck at actually running the country but they are very proficient at harrassment and show trials and prefer to fight phantoms threatening Society- it may be the only they only thing they're actually good at- for which, however, The People rewards them, incidentally.

Additionally, look at the political dynamic at work all over the country. The Bush people are blowing all the substance and sucking all the political capital out of the built-up positive mythology about what Republicans stand for. This leads to this wierd climate in which moderate Republicans go through waves of betrayal, disillusionment, anger, denial, re-comforting, and clinging to the next remaining bit of the myth. And the erratic Inner Conservative also gets drawn out of people who, while they're on the Democratic side, do subscribe to the regional conventions of what is true and what is embraceable about the political sides. And wierdly enough, this upsets radicals on parts of the Left rather than encourages them. They suddenly realize that the slipping liberal if not Leftward of the mainstream could undercut what upheld their anti-conformity for so long, the sense of having the moral high ground and being a vanguard. Some do give up radicalism and go mainstream; others (e.g. Cockburn) revise their demands upwards and redefine themselves as more radical. (Note, however, that this literally a reactive and conservative behavior.)

I think the Kerry people are letting this remoderation process and its splintering effect on the Right-conservative political coalition in the country, aka Republicans, run its course without involving themselves in it very actively. Just providing little goads and revelations that keep the process running forward, and maybe even running in the middle to minimize Republican ability to use them as a distraction and bogeyman.

Between Bush and Kerry and some others all the 'rationales' developed since at least Goldwater to vote Republican seem to be getting rolled back. Bush himself rolled the issues/rationales back to 1990 by the economic slump, tax cuts, superpower games, and Iraq, then the manufacturing jobs problem and deficits and corporate scandals and happy talk rolled him back to 1980- remember his attempt at 'Morning in America' ads that failed so miserably seven or eight weeks ago? Then there's the attempt to paint Kerry as a Carter figure via the 'military weapons system underfunding' and $87 billion Iraq bill vote, and the initial collision about the Vietnam era roles along with the 'he's a McGovern candidate' assertion. Then there are more recently the arguments used against Humphrey (He's The Past), and the 'he's only a Senator who didn't accomplish anything' bit that is vaguely LBJ/Goldwater-ish. Now there's the Medal Flap, which is thinly something like the PT-109: Was He Really A Hero argument out of the attack waged on JFK. Wolfowitz was floating Eisenhower (vs Stevenson) Red Menace slogans a two weeks ago somewhere. Republicans will be dredging political angles and rhetoric up out of the Pearl Harbor debacle by the fall- it's the last politically important event still in human memory among their voters.

Kerry and Democrats are travelling in the opposite direction. Kerry started off as an FDR-ish Limosine Liberal Democrat figure in the Democratic debate in late 2002, got sidetracked into Trumanesque humiliations and Stevensonian behaviors and the resultant obloquy, then emerges to get touted as The Return of JFK during December and January and February. (Kerry beat Dean by focussing his appeal on the older, more liberal Democratic primary voters, btw.) That burst dies down a bit and he gets into the LBJ part ('voted for it before I voted against it') and gets the LBJ treatment by mid-March. Then Rove basically throws Nixonian methods and claims at him, and he fumbles around to some degree, vaguely resembling Humphrey and Muskie and McGovern in parts, but lets Bush get dragged down by the other Nixonian machinations within the White House. Now he's engaged in arguments about the domestic Vietnam politics of ~1973. The failure of Bush's minions' work in Iraq will get us to the arguments with currency in 1974 and 1975 in short order, obviously. It's not all that clear how things will go from there, but October will surely have Kerry together with Clinton and Gore in Palm Beach County though, talking about November and December 2000.

So that's an idea about the internal logic to the campaigns so far- not willingly or predicately done so, but necessitated in some fashion by events and focus groups and polling to conform to the safest and least safe voter demographics and patterns and issues of the American past within living memory. The hard Kerry support among the elderly and strongest Bush support among the younger half of voters, relative to each other, suggests that it isn't all fairy tale and guess. It's a "historical" election because voters have, somehow, made it so. And that's why ad campaigns seem so wierd and ineffective as a vehicle at the moment- if the issue is historical, people don't really change their minds about it. Doubts are created, sure, but voters tend only to rebound to the opinions they held before about e.g. Vietnam protesters.

I believe it's a "historical" election because both sides know it promises to be a 'realignment' election, and because of engagement this time by leading Democrats because they finally believe they have a real majority in the electorate for the first time since 1964. The Democratic social liberal/economic moderate line has gained 3% per four years nationally and will be at ~52% support of the voter population this November. (Rove's PowerPoint presentation of 2002 says that Bush/Cheney'04 estimates the same but hopes to win on turning out an additional 3-4 million religious conservatives who vanished from exit polling between 1992 and 2000. Personally, I suspect he was counting as politically AWOL people who died in that time span to his audience- but whether it was knowingly, I can't tell.) All of American history within living memory is now willingly being put to the test by the two sides: the election is a verdict on whether we want to stall/sabotage the cultural evolution and power devolution of the society for another four years (or more) or enable it. (I know you don't believe Kerry will be an enabler; I obviously do though I'll concede that the Kerry campaign isn't willing to go there let alone acknowledge it yet, but let's not bother with any dispute on the point on this thread.)

In short: we will have a real campaign, based in more pertinent issues, starting in July or August as I see it. And it will be painfully saturating. Don't worry about the 'defining' crap so much, watch how the de-radicalizing of conservatives in Cleveland (iirc?) is going. It's 2004, not 1992.

I don't know what to tell you about the lack of Kerry organizing- that is the only item that worries me in your post. Maybe you can find out something at your state or local Democratic Party headquarters. It's possible that things are being done as the Gore campaign did in Florida in 2000- they went around the state party on the view that it was grossly dysfunctional and an obstruction. I take organized voter registration drives as a sign of seriousness. With Cleveland sort of neutral on population recently it may be that it's low priority or avoided as a locale in which to register voters relative to others in the state. I wouldn't be surprised if the Kerry campaign is wavering between Florida and Ohio as their central gamble, though, and may already be betting Florida.






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dsc Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-01-04 08:55 AM
Response to Reply #58
61. You have some valid points
but you are also somewhat misreading my points.

First, I am not so much interested in an issue tit for tat ad war as I am in a biographical one. As you point out, Kerry is the unknown one. He needs to introduce himself to the voters before Bush does it for him. The independent groups can't run those kinds of ads so he has to. The one exception to this is that he has to counter the Dukakisesque ads on defense. And again, he has yet to do so. (I am referring to the one listing a bunch of weapons systems that Kerry voted against)

Second, If really isn't going to invest in Ohio he should let us know that. Much of Ohio's Democratic population lives close to PA or MI and thus could be freed up for those states which we know he is going to fight in.

Third, On gay marriage, my problem is as much political as it is positional. For the short term most people's minds are made up on gay marriage itself. The only argument people are entertaining is the extent to which we should go to ban it and what, if anything, should be offered in its place. Kerry has given up any principled argument in regards to the sanctity of Constitutions by agreeing to amend his state's. And he did so for nothing in return. That was the one effective argument with swing voters on this issue. Basicly he took about the worst position he could on this issue from a political stand point. He gets all the blame for pandering to gay voters in the general public thanks to his DOMA vote but none of the benefits of actually having pandered thanks to his position on the MA amendment.

Fourth, I know he needs to go around our state party. It is on an epic losing streak. Our last statewide win in a partisan office was in 1990 where we won the AG office by a very small margin and the Treasurer and Auditor positions. Since then it has been a disaster. Our only federal statewide wins were Clinton 92/96 and Glenn 92. But that is why it is all the more important that he have his own grassroots effort because our party sucks. Currently only independent groups with their accompanying limits and the Stonewall Dems are doing any registration that I know of. Only the Stonewall Dems can work with Kerry, the rest have to have a wall around them and thus can't be coordinated with the Kerry campaign and can't know what plans Kerry has. Thus we could end up actually harming his campaign without even knowing it. Even with a stable population turnout needs to be worked. Kerry needs a 150k margin in Cuyahoga County to have a chance.

Fifth, Ohio should be in play. Bush won an ungodly percentage of the vote in rural, southeastern Ohio. Virtually every county down there has double digit unemployment now. Some as high as 25%. This should be easy pickings for Kerry. Bush won this state in 2000 with that rural vote. He actually lost Columbus, was obliterated in Toledo, Youngstown, and Cleveland and did worse in Cincy than his dad did against Clinton. Had it not been for close to 70% in these rural counties he would have lost Ohio. He shouldn't even win those counties now.
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Lexingtonian Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun May-02-04 05:58 AM
Response to Reply #61
78. fair points
Edited on Sun May-02-04 06:28 AM by Lexingtonian
First, I am not so much interested in an issue tit for tat ad war

All in good time. Let me point out that the Cold War has been over for a couple of years, though- this stuff doesn't play as well as you think with the general electorate anymore. A much small portion works in the military-industrial complex these days and the Red Scare is on the limits of memory. Weapons aren't magical stuff to people who came of voting age after Vietnam. They see things through a pretty economic-centric lens and, in my experience, see weapons progams as mostly simply highly bloated big ticket spending items that fund jobs and CEO McMansions in other parts of the U.S. And, as tools, only work as designed in their third or fourth versions.

Don't forget the basic doctrine of Bush-Cheney 2004: they're not making the least effort to go after voters they see as liberal leaning, figuring that if Gore was able to pick them off as effectively as he did they're not worth any effort since Kerry is going to get them for very little. Liberal-leaning voters are simply resilient after this many years of losses, abuses, and the wedging off of the last conservative Democrats and Perot voters. (Well, I have to qualify that: the ones that haven't been through an election cycle can be fooled to some extent- but their elders tend to supply correction to a sufficient extent.)

Second, If really isn't going to invest in Ohio he should let us know that.

I think you're going to get drowned in ads, at very least. Kerry has been a little slow to pick people, but decisive and sharp in spurts. The best explanation I can come up with is that they're either not finding a person they can trust to do the job the right way, or they're having an internal argument about two or more people. As I see the numbers, Ohio looks like electoral votes 265 to 286 to them and the second, crucial, Red State they can tip (following New Hampshire). I'd figure that their perspective is that getting an exceptional person to run the effort in Ohio is more important than getting a somewhat lesser person with an additional week or two in April or May. Which supposes, I guess, that they don't expect significant movement in Ohio polling numbers before September or October.


Third, On gay marriage, my problem is as much political as it is positional. For the short term most people's minds are made up on gay marriage itself. The only argument people are entertaining is the extent to which we should go to ban it and what, if anything, should be offered in its place. Kerry has given up any principled argument in regards to the sanctity of Constitutions by agreeing to amend his state's. And he did so for nothing in return. That was the one effective argument with swing voters on this issue. Basicly he took about the worst position he could on this issue from a political stand point. He gets all the blame for pandering to gay voters in the general public thanks to his DOMA vote but none of the benefits of actually having pandered thanks to his position on the MA amendment.

I'm not convinced that that's how it works. He endorsed the proposed state amendment to buttress his stated position of voting against the proposed Allard-Musgrove federal amendment should that come before the Senate. But at bottom he has to take a nominal position for civil unions and against gay marriage so that his cred as an averagely Church-compliant Catholic stays intact. (Notice how they've tried to pry at that via ginning up the communion/pro-choice politician matter.)

And speaking as a Mass. resident following the game pretty closely, we're going to have another, though quite short, popular support spike against gay marriage during the next three weeks. We're going to have a three way fight involving Romney, the Legislature, and the SJC about crucial specific law changes since the Goodridge verdict court order is not specific- the SJC wins, of course.

The baseline support trend in-state is, however, such that by August or September it'll be clear to everyone that the state amendment is dead. Believe it or not, but my reading of the polling is that it's losing support of approximately 3% of the Mass. electorate a month. It's around 50% support at the moment, the fighting and first images of the actuality will drive it to 60% or 65%, that will collapse back to the baseline by mid-summer (then, at 45% or so). When it's under 40% state politicians will feel safe enough to declare it dead at the next session of the Legislature (where it requires another vote). (Our state's political Right is pretty firmly pegged at 32%, our Left/liberals are firmly at 44%.)

Bob Travaglini, the president of the state senate, admitted almost overtly on local TV talk shows (and Arlene Isaacson said as much during March) that a good majority of the Legislature- 120 to 130 of the 200- individually at this point find the arguments against gay marriage legalization ridiculous. He points out that the proposed constitutional amendment is absolutely minimal restriction (the legal distinction is only the name) and between the lines says it was all just a manouver intended to save a bunch of individual members of the Legislature from upset elderly voters this November- which is to say, until these folks find more important things to worry themselves with. (Vermont gave the Legislature a lesson in that regard.)

So as I see it it's quite possible that Kerry is gambling correctly- he may well be able to say in September that he's against the FMA and DoMA on principle as governmental intrusion and discrimination, that marriage is a right reserved to the states, and that if Massachusetts voters reject the Travaglini-Lees Amendment and tolerate/accept gay marriage as part of their package of civil rights it's not for him to tell them otherwise- where's the harm done. He'll get crap about enforcing DoMA if/when in the Oval Office but can say it's the law of the land and up to Congress to change, and also point out that the USSC will probably get a word in about it too. I doubt that gay voters are going to care much about his statement of March if the Massachusetts amendment does look likely to bite the dust in October.

Btw, Rhode Island is probably the next state to legalize gay marriage- I imagine right after the November elections. And chances are gay activists are probably brewing up a test case to federal DoMA as we speak, I'd be very surprised if we don't see a federal lawsuit filed in June or July after Massachusetts happens to marry an appropriate willing couple or two or five. Maybe we'll see the Goodridges and their kids in front of the TV cameras a couple more times.... And if/when the federal DoMA gets overturned the individual state DoMAs will necessarily come under attack. But that's another thread.

Fourth, I know he needs to go around our state party. It is on an epic losing streak....

Losing is not per se why. The Ohio Democratic Party simply seems to one of the ones that hasn't really renewed, internally, to the point that the better political talent finds them reliable and useful and relevant enough yet. There are Democratic state parties stuck in pre-1980 politically and Democratic state parties that have successfully renewed themselves since 1994/96 into the form described by Judis and Texeira. The former are treated as hopeless and as millstones by national Democrats, probably for good reason, the latter seem all to be kicking butt. But to be seen as part of one of the former tends to be fatal- it did in Mondale and Jean Carnahan in '02, poor fellows, if not Cleland and some others as well.

But that is why it is all the more important that he have his own grassroots effort because our party sucks.

Fifth, Ohio should be in play. Bush won an ungodly percentage of the vote in rural, southeastern Ohio. Virtually every county down there has double digit unemployment now. Some as high as 25%. This should be easy pickings for Kerry. Bush won this state in 2000 with that rural vote. He actually lost Columbus, was obliterated in Toledo, Youngstown, and Cleveland and did worse in Cincy than his dad did against Clinton. Had it not been for close to 70% in these rural counties he would have lost Ohio. He shouldn't even win those counties now.


You're implying that this rural vote is due to a secular rationale. I'm not inclined to see it that way. In the present Identity Politics the sort of Christianity that is most pervasive in rural, especially southern, Ohio tells its members to be Republican or non-voting. The best we can hope for is that they don't vote, I believe. I'm pretty sure they see Democrats as people representing a psychological force that will take over and secularize- effectively destroy- their subsociety if not resisted with a certain amount of energy. (At least this is what I hear is being said in the Ohio offshoot of my own religious denomination. Along with a lot of other bizarre foolishness.) This problematic, insular, deeply paganized Christianity is what they hold to be distinguishing for them themselves and unable to survive much more contact with Modernity. It's more important than prosperity to them though less important than survival. As long as they think Bush doesn't threaten their survival the opposition to Democrats won't change.

But the people who get out of that or get hostile treatment from it and its various emissaries and minions vote against it. That's one source of Democratic votes. But on the whole, in places like southern Ohio the great majority of Democratic votes simply have to come from urban and suburban areas disgusted with the conservative Christianity-derived and Industrial Age corporation-derived failures of a socioeconomic order being foisted upon them. It's the people who have gained some political distance from both that are going to vote Democratic, not people who agree with one and dissent from the other on the Democratic positions on them. So single issues can be pushed, but I don't see people changing their votes on the basis of a single issue this time. A good number will say so, but I think closer questioning will show that they broke away from a second Republican-embracing political line in the other realm, economic or cultural, some time before.

So I think your idea that pure energetic hammering by Kerry will yield ever more converts isn't quite how it works. It might be more effective to make multiple passes that plant seeds of doubt and give each latest willing set of people a welcome in, that pry a bit on the jobs angle and let people abandon their 'religion'-derived political attitudes and miscommitments as they discover they can afford to.



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dsc Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun May-02-04 11:03 AM
Response to Reply #78
79. some answers
First, I have seen the ad in question. I have no idea when Kerry cast those votes to be honest. But it is running unopposed at this time. There really should be an ad pointing out that Cheney favored many of those cuts as well.

Second, I am not saying that we have a chance of winning those rural counties. Merely that we can, and should, be able to cut that margin. If we merely lose those places 60/40 instead of 70/30 that should be enough for us to win. In a set of counties averaging 15% unemployment we should be able to manage that.

Third, I hope you are right on gay marriage but what I see happening to Kerry is this debate question. You are on record supporting amending the MA Constitution, you are on record opposing gay marriage, the only way to be sure to stop gay marriage is a federal amendment, why are you opposed to that? The follow up would be just how is what ever he suggests going to stop gay marriage? I don't see an honest, acceptable answer to that question.
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bhenries Donating Member (73 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-01-04 09:01 AM
Response to Original message
62. First posting!
Hi,

This is my first post.

I read your article, and I just wanted to say that I think your candor is sobering, but necessary. I agree with your statement.

Please keep up the good work.
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newyawker99 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-01-04 09:16 AM
Response to Reply #62
63. Hi bhenries!!
Welcome to DU!! :toast:
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bhenries Donating Member (73 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-01-04 09:22 AM
Response to Reply #63
64. Hey!
:hi: :beer:

(I've obviously discovered the "Smilies lookup table")
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jsanteramo Donating Member (101 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-01-04 10:33 AM
Response to Reply #62
65. Welcome bhenries
Welcome to DU :toast:
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Armstead Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-01-04 12:16 PM
Response to Original message
66. Kerry needs to be bold
Kerry's biggest problem is that he is strong on name calling, but werak on backing it up.

The anti-Bush people don;t need convincing about Bush's faults.

But the people in the middle, and those who support Bush, neerd some reason otehr than Kerry's "Crooks and Liars" style of attack. That just turns off those people.

And worse yet, when Kerry takes cheap shots while also echoing Bush policy stances, he fails to excite anti-Bush people.

That's the whole problem with this indistinct "angry centrist" strategy.

Kerry ought to stop apologizing for being a liberal, stop kowtowing to the corporate elite and start telling the truth. And offering real solutions with some teeth in them.



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Cocoa Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-01-04 04:25 PM
Response to Original message
69. I think you have a personal dislike of Kerry
A very strong personal dislike. I don't think there's much Kerry can do about that.

It might be YOU that will have to find a way to deal with Kerry being the nominee.

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IndianaGreen Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-01-04 04:32 PM
Response to Reply #69
70. Wait until it is your civil liberties that are affected!
How would you like to be treated as a second class citizen? It is bad enought that the other party openly advocates discrimination against GLBTs, it is worse when it is your own "liberal" party that throws in the towel on GLBT rights.

I don't know what's worse, gay bashing or hetero patronizing!
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Cocoa Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-01-04 04:43 PM
Response to Reply #70
71. you too, IG
I think your personal dislike of Kerry has caused you to have a distorted
view of Kerry's record on civil rights. Recall that he voted against DOMA, saying that it
codified gay bashing, and that he is in favor of civil unions, citing equal rights, and that he opposes Bush's constitutional amendment.

But your intense dislike of Kerry may force you to rationalize these things away,
since you seem to NEED to continue holding your negative view of him.

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IndianaGreen Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-01-04 04:47 PM
Response to Reply #71
72. There is no excuse for Kerry opposition to including the transgendered
as a protected class under ENDA.

I think that Kerry as a Boomer is too old to understand the principle that is at stake in here, and like many members of his generation, he may have a residual emotional hangup about GLBTs.

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Cocoa Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-01-04 04:56 PM
Response to Reply #72
73. if you hate someone
then nothing is enough. Having an opinion gets reduced to a game of finding the
flaw in that person's position for which there is supposedly "no excuse." Everyone has
such a flaw, so you will always be able to continue hating that person, if you want to.

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IndianaGreen Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-01-04 04:57 PM
Response to Reply #73
74. Who said anything about hate?
Edited on Sat May-01-04 04:58 PM by IndianaGreen
Not agreeing with someone on the issues is not hate.

This thread is about GLBT rights.

And speaking of issues, compare Kerry to Zapatero:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=132&topic_id=514301#514546
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dsc Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-01-04 05:01 PM
Response to Reply #69
75. In tomorrow's NYT
Kerry still doesn't have an Ohio headquarters nor an Ohio director.

In Ohio, the state that strategists for Mr. Kerry and Mr. Bush view as perhaps the most critical battleground, Mr. Kerry has yet to hire a state director or open a campaign office. His operation is relying so far on the work of committees working independent of the Kerry campaign.

By contrast, Mr. Bush appointed an Ohio state director on Jan. 1, and opened a headquarters in Columbus, staffed by 13 people, three months ago, his aides said.

http://www.nytimes.com/2004/05/02/politics/campaign/02KERR.html?hp=&pagewanted=print&position=

That is my problem with Kerry, in a nutshell. We are supposedly the new Florida. We are supposedly where this race is going to be won. Yet here it is May 2 and not even a state director. You can do as you will but this is not good. It shows every word I said in regards to his campaign not having organized here is 100% true. So even if I have this personal dislike of the man his own campaign admits what I said in regards to organizing is true. Care to comment on that. Or is his campaign a bunch of Kerry haters too?
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Cocoa Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-01-04 05:17 PM
Response to Reply #75
76. if you want to find flaws in Kerry's strategy
you will always be able to find them. The mainstream media will help you reinforce the
idea that Kerry's campaing is foundering, even doomed.

The question is why would you want to do that? Instead of hanging onto spite,
why not just adjust to what happened in the primaries, and join the winning team? All are
welcome.



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dsc Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-01-04 06:24 PM
Response to Reply #76
77. This isn't a flaw
it is a huge flaw. It isn't my fault the man hasn't gotten a state director in a state his own campaign says is vital to him winning. It is also a state that has no viable statewide Democratic party. We last won a partisan state office in 1990. Our last partisan statewide victory was Clinton's reelection. In otherwords om the 14 years since 1990, we are 3 and 19 in partisan statewide elections. Our wins were Clinton in 92 and 96, and Glenn in 92. Our losses are 15 statewide constitutional office elections, 3 US Senate races, and Gore. It would have behooved Kerry to name a state chair.
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