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Hippo_Tron Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-25-04 02:46 PM
Original message
Question regarding the DLC
Edited on Sun Apr-25-04 02:46 PM by Hippo_Tron
If they have as much influence as some here claim that they do, then why isn't Joe Lieberman the democratic nominee?
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Classical_Liberal Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-25-04 02:48 PM
Response to Original message
1. John Kerry is dlc as well.
. He is also following Lieberman's program of agreeing with Bush on the war on terrorism.

I am sure TNR are just thrilled.
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Finch Donating Member (487 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Apr-26-04 06:39 AM
Response to Reply #1
37. Yeah Kerry's DLC ... right...
... so why the hell is he ranked as being so liberal?...and why has he voted against the DLC and other moderate dems in the senate so often?
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AntiCoup2K4 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-25-04 02:48 PM
Response to Original message
2. That's obvious.
They can't sell Holy Joe to the base. On the other hand, how many times have you heard the mantra "Kerry's 20 year Liberal Voting Record" repeated here daily?

(Never mind that he's been virtually lock step with the neocon agenda since the Coup and considerably to the right of his mythical "liberalism" for most of the 1990's)
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freetobegay Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-25-04 02:51 PM
Response to Original message
3. Fore the same reason Dean isn't. N/T
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Classical_Liberal Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-25-04 02:55 PM
Response to Reply #3
4. Dean had tons more support than Lieberman
and would be the lead candidate right now if it weren't for Gephardt's treachery, which was probably dlc inspired.


Dean wouldn't be say we are going to win the war on terror no matter who wins. He would clearly state if Bush wins we lose the war on terror as well.
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freetobegay Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-25-04 02:57 PM
Response to Reply #4
5. Just can't let it go can you.
Edited on Sun Apr-25-04 02:59 PM by freetobegay
In case it hasn't set in yet Dean lost!
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Classical_Liberal Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-25-04 02:59 PM
Response to Reply #5
7. I know, I am also pointing out that it was a big mistake
Edited on Sun Apr-25-04 03:01 PM by Classical_Liberal
for war opponants to follow the electability lie. I don't believe people who agree with Bush can defeat him for the obvious reason that someone who likes Bush's tactics will vote for Bush, not Kerry. Furthermore there is no way to look like a leader by saying "me too!"

Kerry is not following winning tactics.
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JI7 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-25-04 02:57 PM
Response to Reply #4
6. so why didn't Kucinich win ?
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Classical_Liberal Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-25-04 03:00 PM
Response to Reply #6
8. Kucinich was opposed to Afghanistan as well as Iraq.
.
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JI7 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-25-04 03:00 PM
Response to Reply #8
10. what's wrong with being opposed to Afghanistan ?
it was about oil.
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Classical_Liberal Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-25-04 03:02 PM
Response to Reply #10
11. Not many people opposed it
but pacifists. Al Qaeda was actually there, unlike Iraq.
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JI7 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-25-04 03:05 PM
Response to Reply #11
13. al qaeda is in america also and europe and africa
and not many people opposed iraq in america.
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Classical_Liberal Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-25-04 03:09 PM
Response to Reply #13
16. Not many people opposed the Iraq war?
Have you been living in a cave?
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JI7 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-25-04 03:11 PM
Response to Reply #16
19. in america
more supported it than were against it.
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Classical_Liberal Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-25-04 03:13 PM
Response to Reply #19
20. Most didn't think we needed to invade at that time.
. Many times the number of people protested Iraq than Afghanistan.
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JI7 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-25-04 03:16 PM
Response to Reply #20
21. doesn't mean they opposed it
they did mostly support bush. even though support for afghanistan was more. but afghanistan was about oil also.
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cosmicdot Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-25-04 03:09 PM
Response to Reply #6
15. he'$ not DLC ...... some just can't resist denigrating Dennis
Edited on Sun Apr-25-04 03:11 PM by cosmicdot
he's not from the corporate wing of the Democratic Party
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JI7 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-25-04 03:00 PM
Response to Reply #4
9. Edwards had more support than Dean
and of course, so did John Kerry.
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Classical_Liberal Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-25-04 03:03 PM
Response to Reply #9
12. Only because the dlc ran a scare campaign.
. MOst of Kerry's supporters in Iowa had been Dean supporters and were against the war. Kerry is doing poorly in the upper midwest right now, primarily because of the war.
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JI7 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-25-04 03:08 PM
Response to Reply #12
14. Kucinich was against the war
i was against the war. and i was never a dean supporter. i was always a kerry supporter. and edwards got more anti war votes than dean in iowa also.
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Classical_Liberal Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-25-04 03:10 PM
Response to Reply #14
17. ok
.
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freetobegay Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-25-04 03:11 PM
Response to Reply #12
18. I see it's time for my
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JHBowden Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-25-04 03:19 PM
Response to Reply #12
22. Nobody made Dean say yeeeargh,
advocate raising taxes on the middle class, say the Iowa caucuses were dominated by special interests, get bogged down in a smear campaign with Represenative Gephardt, blow 40 million dollars, et cetera.

Politics ain't beanbag.
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Hippo_Tron Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-25-04 03:29 PM
Response to Reply #12
23. And Dean called them Republicans...
I'll admit that the Osama ad was HORRIBLE and should not have been used on ANY democrat (except maybe Zell Miller) but Dean doesn't walk away guilt free either.
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Classical_Liberal Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-25-04 04:55 PM
Response to Reply #23
26. Kerry is republican light, but also better than Bush
Edited on Sun Apr-25-04 04:57 PM by Classical_Liberal
who is a christian taliban memeber.
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Hippo_Tron Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-25-04 08:20 PM
Response to Reply #26
29. You may believe that Kerry is a Republican lite, but I don't
And with the exception of a few stances like gay marriage, I think that Kerry and Dean are in just about the same place on the political spectrum. Now, are Kerry's policies as liberal as Kucinich? No, of course not. But neither were Dean's.
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saracat Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Apr-26-04 05:43 AM
Response to Reply #12
36. If most Kerry Supporters
in Iowa were for Dean, Why didn't they vote for him instead of Kerry?
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Warpy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-25-04 03:29 PM
Response to Original message
24. Voters pick the nominees
The DLC provided media outlets with the cherrypicked audio/video of Dean trying to be heard in a packed room, and since Dean had promised to break up the media monopolies, they ran with it, effectively torpedoing the one non-DLC candidate with a real chance.

The DLC brought Clark in because Kerry dumped their handlers in favor of Kennedy's guys because he was getting bad advice and was losing in all the polls. Once he did this, his candidacy started to take off, but he's still pretty much DLC.
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Hippo_Tron Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-25-04 03:40 PM
Response to Reply #24
25. Well... You don't win a democratic primary by running to the center
Or at least that's how it's supposed to be.
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ulysses Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-25-04 07:13 PM
Response to Original message
27. a disagreeable party membership.
Hasn't been the best of times for our friends at the DLC.
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salonghorn70 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-25-04 07:30 PM
Response to Original message
28. Lieberman
I don't think it was the message. The message wasn't much different than Clinton. It was the messenger. How shall I say it. Uhh...he just isn't very dynamic as a Presidential candidate. I like Lieberman a lot. I agree with most of what he stands for. BUT, he lacks charisma. And I would not say things are going so bad for the DLC. Kerry is finally giving the middle of the road message that I have been waiting for. Bayh is being talked about as a VP. I know that this probably drives lots of you liberals crazy. The way to win elections is in the middle. That is where the American people are.
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Hippo_Tron Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-25-04 08:26 PM
Response to Reply #28
30. I agree that you need to run to the middle BUT
You also need to trash your opponent's policies when they are just plain WRONG. Lieberman was saying that Bush was doing a swell job in Iraq. He would've been a disaster in the general election because he wouldn't have attacked Bush on foreign policy, something that Kerry can do and will get him somewhere. Granted I think Kerry is doing a good job overall and will make a great president. Do I think that Kerry is taking perfect stances on the issues right now? No. But you do what you have to do to win. My point was that Lieberman is basically head of the DLC. Many people say that hte DLC determined the outcome of the primary and people really didn't have a choice. But my point was that if the DLC really had the ability to determine the outcome of the primary, then Lieberman would've been the nominee and not Kerry.
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salonghorn70 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-25-04 08:40 PM
Response to Reply #30
31. I Agree
I don't think the DLC "pulled strings" or determined the outcome. I think that Demo voters just decided that Kerry had the best chance to win in November. So I guess democrat voters determined the outcome. How can anyone argue with that?:)
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Pastiche423 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Apr-26-04 01:40 AM
Response to Reply #31
34. It is quite easy to argue with
The Democratic voters DID NOT determine the outcome. The media (w/a little help from the DLC) determined the outcome of Iowa, then continued w/their electabilty bullshit script.

Two states, supposedly, determined the candidate for the whole fucking country. Two states does not equal the Democratic Party.

This Democratic voter has not even voted yet. When I do vote, it will not be for Kerry.

The Democratic Party, (not the DLC) can do better than Kerry. I want a brokered convention!
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Tinoire Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-25-04 09:24 PM
Response to Original message
32. They tried. Big time. Desperately.
Edited on Sun Apr-25-04 09:34 PM by Tinoire
Do you not remember the early stages of the run when the media was pumping up Lieberman as the Democratic Front-runner who was going to take it by a land-slide because he had "name recognition"?

Lieberman & Kerry were their golden boys. Edwards was given a DLC time-out for not being pro-NAFTA. When neither Lieberman nor Kerry looked as if they were going to pull it off, the DLC brought in Clark who bombed too.

They marginalized Kucinich and deliberately destroyed Dean who was just too much of a loose cannon for them. Dean was getting confused, talking populist and being beholden to the wrong people (you know the little guys).

Had Lieberman not been booed so repreatedly and loudly at the debates, who knows, they might have told us he won the Primaries :shrug: but how believable would that have been?

Lieberman, btw, is not only DLC but he is also co-founder of the NDN. This way we have 2 DLC organizations peddling their neo-liberal trash.


This is a cut & paste. Sorry if the focus is on Clark but there's plenty of information about the DLC & Lieberman there.

==========

Clark, btw, was the guest of honor at the NDN's annual meeting in June: http://www.newdem.org/annualmeeting/clark.php (Speech also available)

Here is how he was drafted by the DLC

July 22, 2003
Draft-Clark enthusiasts grow hopeful. This article from the Financial Times has been reprinted at Draft Clark 2004.

Chris Kofinis, a Democratic political consultant, suggests Mr Clark's entry would electrify the presidential race. "Democrats want someone who can win," he says, and that may mean the party's liberal wing may have to contemplate someone whose name begins with "General"

http://wesleyclarkweblog.com/archives/000122.html


<snip>

But members of the DLC, meeting in Philadelphia over the weekend and today for the group's annual "conversation," say they're holding their centrist ground. Their "Third Way" or "New Democrat" ideas will reclaim the White House for the Democrats in 2004, they say, as they did for Bill Clinton in his two victories.

<snip>

Despite the political focus, however, the declared Democratic presidential candidates were asked to stay away.

<snip>

The absence of candidates has hardly back-burnered the presidential race. It was still the dominant discussion in the hallways and ballrooms where the group gathered over the weekend. Center-of-the-road names like Lieberman, Kerry and Edwards were bandied about. As was a name that many participants said they were surprised to hear often: that of Gen. Wesley Clark, the former NATO commander. Clark has not declared his candidacy but has said he is considering a run. Supporters say he could go toe-to-toe with Bush on military issues.

<snip>
http://www.philly.com/mld/dailynews/6400042.htm

Another article about this same meeting in Philly:
Centrist Dems weigh Dean dilemma: At Philly meeting, praise and scorn for presidential contender

By Tom Curry
MSNBC

PHILADELPHIA, July 28 - Meeting in Philadelphia to plan strategy for the 2004 elections, members of the centrist Democratic Leadership Council grappled Monday with what one Democratic political consultant here called "their worst nightmare," the possibility that Howard Dean might win their party's presidential nomination. DLC activists said that despite Dean's recent fund-raising successes, his winning the nomination is far from a sure thing.

<snip>
DLC'S ROLE AS COUNTERWEIGHT

The DLC is the business-friendly group that helped write Bill Clinton's platform in 1992. It serves as a counterweight in Democratic politics to labor unions and interest groups such as the NAACP and the National Organization for Women (NOW).

<snip>

“The main theme of the next election is going to be national security,” said Chris Kofinis, a political consultant who attended the DLC gathering and is advising the campaign to draft retired Gen. Wesley Clark as the Democratic candidate.

MSNBC article but now archived. You can find it here:
http://blog.forclark.com/story/2004/1/4/144349/2024

And just to clarify that the NDN is DLC:

DLC AND NDN
Two acronyms that junkies know and that Democratic candidates hear in their sleep. The Democratic Leadership Council, chaired these days by Sen. Evan Bayh and run for 17 years by its founding director, Al From, is the spawning ground of moderate “Third Way” thinking in the party. Bill Clinton was chairman when he launched his own presidential bid in 1991. The New Democratic Network is the DLC’s overtly political cousin, run by an operative named Simon Rosenberg. It doles out cash to candidates and, increasingly, supports independent spending efforts.

http://www.msnbc.com/news/834591.asp?0bl=-0&cp1=1

More about the NDN:

Centrist Democrats launch new agenda
By Hans Nichols

The centrist New Democratic Network (NDN) unveiled a new six-point agenda yesterday that it says can serve as a blueprint for making the Democratic Party the governing force in American politics for the next generation.

<snip>

Several announced and potential Democratic presidential candidates addressed the gathering at a Capitol Hill hotel, including Sens. Joe Lieberman (Conn.) and Bob Graham (Fla.), as well as retired Army Gen. Wesley Clark. Sen. John Kerry (Mass.) addressed the convention by phone, and former Vermont Gov. Howard Dean sent a video greeting.

<snip>

Rosenberg explained in the interview that the network’s revamped agenda and new strategy are the beginning steps of “a 10- to 45-year” plan to elect centrist Democrats to local, state and federal offices.

http://www.hillnews.com/news/061803/centrist.aspx

----
About the NDN


The New Democrat Network (NDN) is one of the nation’s most influential political organizations.
NDN promotes a new generation of leaders who advocate economic growth and fiscal responsibility, strong American leadership in world affairs and world markets, a smaller, smarter government, and a progressive approach to social issues that respects family, faith, and community.

<snip>

NDN is led by NDN President Simon Rosenberg, with advice from NDN's Advisory Board, a group of leading New Democratic thinkers and strategists. NDN’s Advisory Board includes former Democratic National Committee Chairman Joseph J. Andrew, pollster and Latino electorate expert Sergio Bendixen, former Army Secretary Louis Caldera, former Member of Congress and Chairman of the Democratic Congressional Campaign Committee Vic Fazio, former Member of Congress and Chairman of the Democratic Leadership Council Dave McCurdy, former White House Press Secretary Mike McCurry, former White House Chief of Staff Mack McLarty, and former Federal Trade Commissioner and White House Cabinet Secretary Christine A. Varney.
------------------------------

Want to know who founded the NDN?

The NDN was founded in 1996 by Senator Joe Lieberman, chairman of the DLC. "NDN acts as a political venture capital fund," a special type of political action committee among political action committees. NDN raises PAC money from many sectors, which they then distribute to their top federal candidates -- Lucas received $10,000 from them. NDN also provides a mechanism for fat-cats to donate directly to candidates without worrying about all those pesky Election Commission limits. Clinton campaign aide, Simon Rosenberg, is now NDN's President. Joe Lieberman is chairman.

The DLC does the same thing, actually. But, by forming the NDN, the DLC contribute more than twice as much to favored candidates. The favored candidate is Clark.

Wesley Clark: The DLC Focus Group Candidate

<snip>

Still many believe Clark’s late entry will cause him problems in both raising money and establishing a cohesive campaign. If Clark catches fire quickly, the DLC will make sure neither will be a problem. But the fourth and biggest question, his stance on issues, is a bit tougher. But don't worry, the DLC focus groups will tell feed him talking points soon enough.
<snip>

Clark is very unsure on many of his positions, and they can change at any time. There is a clear reason for this. The first wave of the Democratic Leadership Council focus group data is barely in, and needs to be reviewed. Once the data is analyzed, the DLC machine will steer the General towards his newly formed positions.

<snip>

The DLC had nothing going for it until Clark was shoved into the race with zero political experience. Joe Lieberman mirrored their stance on many issues, but lacked charisma. John Kerry looked wimpish and went from frontrunner to bottom feeder in only a few weeks. It was becoming clear that Dick Gephardt stirred no emotions among the primary voters. John Edwards was irrelevant and even joked that no one knew he was running for the Presidency.

<snip>
The only candidate making noise and catching fire for the Democrats on the campaign trail was Howard Dean, who proudly proclaimed that was he was from “the democratic wing of the Democratic Party.” Clearly Dean couldn’t be controlled by the DLC and his successful campaign could set them back years in but one election cycle. And that led the DLC to shove the four-star General into the race. He is the perfect focus group candidate. Smart, looks good, speaks clearly and confidently and he fits the suit. Now the DLC just has to tell him what to say. And that’s where the DLC may run into trouble. Many published reports speak of Clark’s arrogance, and his stubbornness. Many say the General wants things done his way, and only his way. And this may also make Clark difficult to control for the DLC.

<snip>
http://www.washingtondispatch.com/article_6667.shtml

You can see what gets them so excited about Clark here:

http://www.ndol.org/ndol_ci.cfm?kaid=131&subid=192&contentid=252098


Here are some excerpts from Clark's speech to the DLC:

<snip>

And, the challenges come from the fact that the United States today doesn’t have a real national security strategy. We lost our strategy. We lost our vision of how to deal with the world around us. We had it, we created it, we paid for it in blood during World War II. We came out of that conflict resolved that America would be engaged in the world. We were engaged. We built the United Nations, the International Monetary Fund, we formed NATO, we stayed involved. We recognized that what we had to do was head off conflict, we had to contain Soviet expansionism, we had to block the spread of Communism, we had to deter the use of nuclear weapons to intimidate our allies or, God forbid, wage nuclear war.

<snip>

Wesley Clark: Well, in the first place, I think it’s always dangerous to draw too tight an analogy between one situation and another. And there are many, many differences between the situation in Vietnam and Iraq. Secondly, I want to say that I wasn’t one of those who was anxious to get into Iraq. I always was skeptical of it. I always doubted that there was an imminent danger that required us to do it. Nevertheless, we’re there now and that’s all ancient history. So, what we have to do is I think, number one: establish legitimacy. For some reason, we fought the UN full endorsement of this mission and the full engagement of the United Nations. For the life of me, I don’t know why. The same people who fought the UN were telling me five years ago – all they could talk about was “burden-sharing, burden-sharing, burden-sharing,” “mission creep, mission creep, mission creep,” “exit strategy, exit strategy.” And somehow, all that disappeared and I don’t understand it. So, I’d go first to the United Nations. I’d say, “Look, we know you don’t have a security force. We’ll finish the job, we’ll work for security. We want you to come in and we want you to really help us work the reconstruction and the redevelopment of Iraq.” There’s political redevelopment to be done, there is economic reconstruction to be done. And, there’s a whole new climate in the Middle East to be created. Legitimacy is job number one. The second is the creation of public order over there. As soon as you can turn those responsibilities over to elements that speak Arabic and preferably Iraqis the better you are. The third thing is, stay engaged in the region and work for peace as an effective intermediary between the contending parties in the Middle East so we don’t attract more anger and more hostility in the region. But you know, my fourth point is, we’re there. This is a difficult situation. It’s going on on three levels: the resistance you see today, the ordinary life of the people in Baghdad and down below that something we’re not quite sure of, which is a sort of level three, subterranean forming up of Iranian dissidents coming in and organizations from Syria. We just don’t know where that’s going to go. We can influence it if we’ll work for legitimacy through international institutions, move the problem over to the Arabic-speaking and the Iraqis, and stay engaged as a constructive force in the region.
<snip>
http://www.women4clark.com/transcripts/ndnspeech.htm
Now only available via google cache

On June 17, 2003, when speaking at the New Democratic Network’s annual meeting in Washington, Clark was asked about the “Vietnamization” of Iraq. He responded by saying that what he thinks we need to do is "number one: establish legitimacy." Legitimize what? Our pre-emptive, unilateral strike that started the war, our complete disregard of the U.N., or perhaps he thinks we should legitimize our ongoing occupation in Iraq. Clark unfortunately did not convey any clear insight into his idea about establishing legitimacy. He did however continue to address the NDN on the subject, explaining that he would first go to the United Nations and say, "Look, we know you don’t have a security force. We’ll finish the job, we’ll work for security. We want you to come in and we want you to really help us work the reconstruction and the redevelopment of Iraq." So the General’s proposal to deal with the situation in Iraq and bring peace is to first legitimize. Then we should ask the U.N. to come in and help us clean up our legitimate mess. “Help us” clearly indicates a continued U.S. presence. And, correct me if I’m wrong here, but I didn’t hear anything about ceding authority. Do you think this plan will have a better chance if Clark were to present it to the U.N.? I ask because Bush isn’t having much luck with this particular agenda. Maybe new dog, old trick would work. quote from Rustie Woods for the LEFT-WING Dissident Voice.


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Hippo_Tron Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-25-04 09:56 PM
Response to Reply #32
33. Lieberman was the frontrunner because he had name recognition...
That was the VERY early stages of the primary before Dean became a "serious candidate".
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Zorra Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Apr-26-04 02:21 AM
Response to Original message
35. Would you vote for Lieberman?
I don't think I could bring myself to do it.

I honestly believe Nader might have just as much chance as Joe of getting elected. Because personally, I'd vote for Nader before I'd vote for Lieberman.

Maybe the Democratic Leadership Corporation understands this.
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