Blacks and gays have a lot in common in how they experience America

[ruggerson]

Both groups have experienced being completely shut out of the system.

Both groups have experienced the unique isolation of being second class citizens in a country that offers bromides about liberty and equality but does not even remotely follow through on its promise.

Both groups have been discriminated against systemically.

Both groups have had the government ignore health epidemics in their communities.

Both groups routinely experience ugly violence at the hands of bigots who simply hate them for being themselves.

Both groups have experienced the profound feeling of "otherness" as children. Of being on the outside looking in.

Yes, obviously gay people were not systematically enslaved and put through the physical and emotional horror that blacks experienced during the first few hundred years of our country.

And, conversely, black people don't know the experience of having to live out invisible lives, or wrenching existences totally contrary to one's true nature. Something which gay folks had to do for thousands of years, and in many countries, still do.

Yet, the shared experiences are there and the commonality of exclusion is very powerful.

Gay people of color have an even more uniquely experience in the duality of their identities - trampled on by both America and, in some cases, their very own communities, they very people who should hold them dear.

Gay Americans and African Americans have very much in common.

It's a great tragedy that the two communities are not more mutually supportive and bound up in each other's quests for justice and freedom.

[Sarah Ibarruri]

1. The difference tho is that a black person can generally not pass for white

Gays notoriously have passed for straights throughout history by merely hiding their identity. How do you hide skin color?

[ruggerson]

4. Why do you think gay people get gay bashed?

Do they hold signs saying "Over here. Beat me with a hammer."

[Sarah Ibarruri]

5. No, I'm saying many gays (and in fact, in the past almost all) tried to pass as straight

I have a boss that passes as straight. Who's going to ID him unless I out him? His skin doesn't have the words, "gay" imprinted on it.

[ruggerson]

6. yes, and many lived utterly miserable lives because of it

[Sarah Ibarruri]

10. When you can conceal your identity, you have an advantage.....

... it's infinitely better to not have to conceal your identity. However, when your identity is hated, and you cannot hide it, you never get a chance even to escape.

[NMMNG]

24. Do you have a clue how bad it is?

When you are hated to the point that you feel you have to conceal yourself? To deny yourself love and affection. When you are forced to live a lie to protect yourself from the ignorance and hatred of others?

Just imagine how much pain that can cause. Now ask yourself why the depression, drug/alcohol abuse and suicide rates for gay people are so high.


I cannot believe the utter ignorance in a so-called "progressive" forum. :banghead:

[casus belli]

71. With all due respect...

You're probably not going to get far by saying something like "How stupid of you not to get it", and expressing incredulity at the lack of understanding in a progressive forum. The fact is, if all people "got it", it wouldn't be an issue and it wouldn't need to be discussed. So why not try to NOT turn people off to the message with the delivery.

[NMMNG]

72. Thank you

But I think I'll just leave it to others to explain. I'm too weary right now.

[casus belli]

76. :)

:hug:

I understand the emotional investment. Most people don't live with these issues every day. It's ridiculous we should even have to fight about this issue, it should be common sense to anyone with a brain. But, I feel like many people who may not otherwise support GLBT issues, would if they were more aware of the specifics. It's those people we need to be focused on, and we need to make sure we don't alienate them by coming off as hostile or pretentious. I'm not saying we should sugar-coat the issues or tip-toe around them, but some people honestly don't understand how bad this really is. Some people perceive GLBT issues as a request for "special treatment", because they are largely unaware of the very real prejudices that the GLBT community faces daily. It's strange to me that some people are actually SHOCKED when I give them examples. It's a fairly common occurence that people will say "My God. I had no idea."

I know it's hard to be patient, but think of the impact one person can have. If you patiently listen to someone who is in the dark about the issues and are mindful of how you bring them to a more intimate understanding...each one of them holds the potential of becoming an advocate.

[Sarah Ibarruri]

78. Wait, you're confusing two different and separate things

1) You're saying being gay is difficult in a place where being gay is either a reason to discriminate, or is looked down upon, or both. I AGREE. It's very bad. Gay people end up having to conceal it.

2) I'm saying being black is difficult in a place where being black is either a reason to discriminate, or is looked down upon, or both. I'm sure you agree. It's very bad. However, a black person can almost never conceal his skin color.

[Smarmie Doofus]

14. "Passing"... and *having* to pass is such a great thing?

I'm not so sure.

[NMMNG]

17. So we keep getting told.

Now get back in your closet, dear.

[Sarah Ibarruri]

79. Of course not. But they're not equivalent situations.

When all is said and done, there is a difference between being black and being gay.

[Kurt_and_Hunter]

37. Here's a question... (re: merely)

You do realize that a lot of these folks passing for straight are black?

Here's a question... how many black people have to hide the fact they are black from their own families?

[Sarah Ibarruri]

80. You're right. One doesn't have to hide it from their families.

But again, being black and being gay are different situations. What about being female? Being female entails being discriminated against from the time we open our eyes. We are discriminated against by nearly every culture on the planet, black, white, yellow, red, you name it. We have internalized discrimination to the point where even we don't even see it anymore.

[Creideiki]

73. The difference is

that black people (generally) grow up in families that experience the same things that can help them learn while very young how to deal with societal mistreatment. And generally, black people aren't kicked out of their homes for being black and getting cut off from all social and material support.

I know it's tough.

Now, look at things like suicide statistics. Are black people statistically much more likely to be driven to suicide?

Then look at teenage homelessness. Are black people kicked out of their homes at statistically higher rates than the general population and left to fend for themselves?

Gay people (generally) have to deal with parents that don't know how to deal with a child that is fundementally different from them. I had a student who was in tears for weeks and refused to tell me what the problem was at first. Eventually she told me that her (black) mother had told her that her bisexuality was extremely disappointing to the mother.

How often are black children told by their parents that the parents are disappointed that the child is black?

So, yes, there is an extremely psychologically damaging method of pretending to be something that you're not that one group deals with.

[JackBeck]

77. Care to explain to me, then,

Why I got gay-bashed in New York City, and continue to get called "f**" from random, passing cars?

Care to explain why straight-identified individuals also get gay-bashed?

[thevoiceofreason]

2. Amen

[angie_love]

3. Its true. Actually my boyfriend and I talk about this all the time.

AA's should definitely be more supportive of gays. I heartily agree.

[sorrybushisfromtexas]

8. My nephew

almost killed himself as a teenager, because he had such a hard time reconciling his sexual orientation to what his pastors had to say about Gay Americans. The hubris of being scared of what a family will think leads many gay teenagers to suicide. After Gary came out, my father told my sister what he called a queer joke. When she said that his grandson was gay, he got quiet, then told her how much he loved him. We never ever heard another derogatory statement about sexual orientation. He even took Mom to see the movie with Robin Williams, I think it was called " the Birdcage", when they were in their late 70's. My nephew basically has turned his back on organized religion because of the hate he has seen.

[daleo]

32. That's a nice anecdote

Sometimes people have see things up close to understand. I am glad your father changed.

[Whisp]

11. the system should be supportive of everyone.

I take a bit of exception that blacks should be more supportive to gays than anyone else.

but the system is what it is, marginalising to distract that we really are all the same, whatever colour, gender, sexual orientation, etc. And it's worked well for them, the System, we nip and bite at each other while they carry on their travasties of fake wars and fake enemies for distraction, and mega ca-ching in their pockets, thanks to our ignorance.

[ruggerson]

21. I don't think they should be more supportive

but there is credible evidence that they are less, which is tragic.

[davidinalameda]

7. I don't think that anyone ever confused me for a straight guy

sorry but I'm a big fag and there's no hiding it

[Creideiki]

74. Unfortunately it's not much easier when you can operate under "deep cover"

[David__77]

9. I'm gay, and I don't think it's the same thing. Black people have it far worse.

In general, in any case.

"Yes, obviously gay people were not systematically enslaved and put through the physical and emotional horror that blacks experienced during the first few hundred years of our country.

"And, conversely, black people don't know the experience of having to live out invisible lives, or wrenching existences totally contrary to one's true nature. Something which gay folks had to do for thousands of years, and in many countries, still do."

The horrors are only now resolving for Black people in this country. Full enfranchisement only occurred in the '60s.

No, Black people haven't lived out invisible lives. They've systematically been targets for harassment, exploitation, and even annihilation. I think that invisibility would be preferable in many ways.

[Smarmie Doofus]

12. In some ways, yes. But what's the suicide rate like for ...

... black teenagers ?

[ExtraGriz]

18. no sure about AA ten suicide rate

but i remember a few years ago, i read that the suicide attempt rate for GLBT teens were near 30%....

[Barack_America]

27. Must it be suicide? Why wouldn't homocide and incarceration count?

Must it manifest as depression rather than rage?

[David__77]

28. Lower. But the murder and imprisonment rate is higher.

...

[Smarmie Doofus]

33. Natch. My point: both groups suffer in different ways.

But no one is suffering more than a kid who prefers to be dead.

*No one*. Let's not minimize that fact.

[Teaser]

They have someone else suicide them

in very high numbers.

[ruggerson]

15. I don't think one

has to out-victimize the other. The point is there is great commonality of experience and it's sad that the two communities (generally) are not more supportive of each other's struggle.

[David__77]

25. Agreed.

I just don't want to compare or contrast. They're different struggles and should be allied.

[Creideiki]

75. Aside from here

I find it very easy to be supportive of the African American people I know.

Here--well, as a friend of mine puts it, anonymity + open forum = instant asshole.

There are people here that are doing their damnedest to convince me that from this point on, I'm not going to be advocating for them.

[MaryCeleste]

40. Agree

When riding the bus or trying to get a cab, its obvious if you are black. Its invisible if you are gay. I don't consider the invisibility the same as hiding or passing. Its just not observable.

What bothers as well is the level of discrimination against GLBTs in minority groups that are themselves the ongoing victims of discrimination

[Traveling_Home]

13. Not even close

[Bluebear]

16. Oh? What's "not even close"?

[Traveling_Home]

19. Blacks and gays have a lot in common in how they experience America

[Bluebear]

22. Yes we all know what the topic is, do you care to elaborate?

[bilgewaterbill]

30. For blacks, bigotry is in the eye of the beholder.

An instantaneous decision is made.

For gays...????

[Bluebear]

31. Your question marks indicate you really have no idea about the gay experience, then.

[bilgewaterbill]

34. You're right! Are YOU saying that I could tell you are gay by looking at you?

[Bluebear]

36. Are you saying that people aren't gay-bashed for nothing else than their appearance? Please.

Look how many idiotic posts at DU claim that some Republican makes the poster's "gaydar" go off.

[bilgewaterbill]

38. How 'bout you answer my question?

Can I tell you are gay by LOOKING at you?

[NMMNG]

42. Many people can be identified as gay just by their appearance.

And many straight people are mistaken for gay, and treated as such (with harmful or even fatal results), on the basis of their appearances.

The notion that people can or even should "pass" is a harmful and degrading one. It is high time we disabuse ourselves of it for the good of all.

[bilgewaterbill]

44. YOU missed the point!

[NMMNG]

45. Would you stop yelling please?

And how did I miss the point? It was about whether or not gay people could be identified as gay just by appearance, no?

[bilgewaterbill]

47. I wasn't yelling, I was emphasizing.

And it's "on sight" not "by appearance." When was the last time YOU (emphasis, not yelling) were pulled over for driving in a straight neighborhood?

[NMMNG]

48. In nettiquite typing in all caps is yelling

And while I look like a mousy librarian, not every gay/lesbian person does and at least one person on this board has been pulled over for "driving while gay--and not because she "flaunts it" either. So you can take your assumption that you're some special case and shove it up your backside. Being on the receiving end of bigotry is not a black-only situation. Just ask any of these people or even these people.

[bilgewaterbill]

49. You made my case for me.

[Bluebear]

50. 800 posts in four years and it took THIS to bring you out?

Ciao, off to ignore land, bigot apologist.

[bilgewaterbill]

51. Nice!

[NMMNG]

52. Piss the fuck off

I didn't make any case for you, you merely decided your own assumptions for yourself. Just go ahead and live in your own little "my life is so much harder than everybody else's" bubble.

The thing I always hate about these threads is that people like you use them to pretend that LGBT people have it so fucking easy compared to you. You are so full of shit because you don't know jack shit and you don't want to come outside your self-absorbed world to even try to learn. When you don't even have equal Human or Civil Rights get back to me. Until then STFU.

[bilgewaterbill]

53. The people rest.

[NMMNG]

54. Rest on this homophobe

[bilgewaterbill]

57. It's alright, Baby. I forgive you.

I've learned to live with your brand of intolerance.

[NMMNG]

58. I have every right

Not to tolerate the intolerant.

Go back to your cave.

[bilgewaterbill]

64. I pray the Lord will watch over you. Sounds like you need it. G'Night.

[NMMNG]

65. Right

[bilgewaterbill]

66. I'll pray for you anyway. Try to open your heart.

[Sarah Ibarruri]

82. Homophobic how? What precisely did he say that was homophobic? nt

[Whisp]

20. There is more than two communities here.

I take a bit of exception that blacks should be more supportive to gays than anyone else.

but the system is what it is, marginalising to distract that we really are all the same, whatever colour, gender, sexual orientation, place of birth, etc. And it's worked well for them, the System, we nip and bite at each other while they carry on their travasties of fake wars and fake enemies for distraction, and mega ca-ching in their pockets, thanks to our ignorance.

[Smarmie Doofus]

41. OP doesn't say that blacks should be more supportive of gays.

Unless I missed it. He does say this:


>>>It's a great tragedy that the two communities are not more mutually supportive and bound up in each other's quests for justice and freedom.>>>

That's hard to argue with.

Personally, I'd take it the next step:

If one hasn't learned thru suffering to ID with others enduring a parallel ( not *identical*) marginalization, one hasn't learned much from the experience of being marginalized.

>>but the system is what it is, marginalising to distract that we really are all the same, whatever colour, gender, sexual orientation, place of birth, etc. And it's worked well for them, the System, we nip and bite at each other while they carry on their travasties of fake wars and fake enemies for distraction, and mega ca>>>

Ya got this part right fer sure.

[KittyWampus]

23. You can add women into the fight for Social Justice,btw. You know how many women are beaten daily?

[ruggerson]

26. I agree

I thought about that after I wrote the OP.

[Sarah Ibarruri]

83. Thank you. Women are discriminated by men all over the globe....

Doesn't matter the age of the woman, the culture, etc. Our discrimination is eternal and total. It's ubiquitous so it's almost impossible for us to step away and see it for what it is. We have accepted our discrimination as normal.

[scheming daemons]

29. Imagine what it must be like for a gay black woman... seriously....

Three different prejudices to deal with...

[NMMNG]

43. It's hell I've heard

Particularly when their church preaches that they're evil perverts bound for hell, etc, etc.

Thankfully my church was never the fire and brimstone type, but I've reverted to atheism so I don't have to worry about it any longer anyway. I just fight the bigots from the outside now, evil gaytheist that I am. I can still empathize however, considering how demonized I am for who I am.

[GoldieAZ49]

35. Isn't that part of the problem in the party - lets see who has it worse

like it is a contest, it is divisive

I heard the dem party described as a bunch of groups that don't like each other much that get together cuz the republicans hate everyone

I think that is why the party is easily divided with 'identity' politicians

[anigbrowl]

39. Two related points...

I feel it's worth observing that Jeremiah right has been outspoken about the need to confront homophobia in the black community, including taking an AIDS test as part of his sermon. I don't know if that was always his attitude or something came to over time, I just felt it was worth pointing out that the two communities are in entirely separate orbits. I gather the UCC is pretty receptive towards LGBTs as a whole.

One a much broader (and necessarily vaguer) front, maybe these are two examples of communities in the news now, but it's an 'American' issue. If you're Asian, it's hard not to be conscious of Japanese internment during WW2, and have to deal with a whole other type of racial discrimination. Even many white groups feel they have to overcome a legacy of discrimination - Irish, Italian and so on. And who'd want to be Mexican or Central American these days with people like Lou Dobbs implicitly blaming you for everything that's wrong with the US?

I think there's a great deal of overlap in the kinds of issues that different people have had to struggle with, and the fact that while the promise of America is founded on the idea of liberty and justice for all, in practise it often doesn't work out that way. One problem arising out of this is that when people get together as a group to assert their right to be treated like any other Americans and also celebrate their idenity as black/ gay/ whatever people, inevitably the different groups end up competing with each other to some extent...thus we have some of the 'my minority is worse off than yours' arguments of the type seen in this thread.

Identity politics can bring people together to speak with louder voice than they can as individuals, but the flip-side of that is that there's a lot of pressure to subordinate their individual identities to those of the group. I think this is one reason that single-issue voters and lobbyists often end up hogging the news cycle a bit - although there's no especial intention or desire to do so, identity politics can end up being exclusionary as well because they want to stay 'on message'. My personal experience is that the people who are hard to pigeonhole because they fit within several groups, or who aren't 'joiners' that want strongly to identify with a particular group, tend to be the most apolitical ones.

[aquart]

46. Women, of course, don't know a thing about that.

Ain't no sexism in that OP.

[ruggerson]

56. Yep

While I agree women, as a group, know as much about institutionalized discrimination as blacks and gays, I wrote the OP about those two identities specifically, because there is some evidence that the AA community is less supportive of gay issues than the nation at large. Women, to the contrary, are MORE supportive of gay people than the nation at large.

And the three are not mutually exclusive. More than half of the gay and african american communities are women.

[Withywindle]

55. Not to mention that it's kind of weird to treat the two groups this way

as if they never meet up anywhere. Lots of black people ARE LGBT, and lots of LGBT people ARE black. That's a thing about comparing/contrasting the gay experience with that of an ethnic group: LGBT people exist in every ethnic group. So there are lots of people dealing with double discrimination (triple if they're female; quadruple if they're poor), and alienation between the communities hurts them more than anyone else.

[NMMNG]

59. Very good point

And one that is often ignored by many (sometimes purposely).

[ruggerson]

60. Maybe

I didn't address that as clearly as I thought I had.

"Gay people of color have an even more uniquely experience in the duality of their identities - trampled on by both America and, in some cases, their very own communities, they very people who should hold them dear."

[Withywindle]

61. I just wanted to emphasize it more, that's all.

I think it's really important.

[ruggerson]

62. look at the results of this poll

by gender and by race. It's pretty interesting.

http://www.surveyusa.com/client/PollReport.aspx?g=20f41f94-d412-4b19-8655-b1412e053db9

[dugggy]

63. I am a good example of why you are wrong..

I am from India and my complexion is about the same as Obama...Brown.
I arrived in this great country with $100 in my pocket as a student
at age 20. In spite of a lot of discrimination, I was able to get a
good college education and work my way up through the ranks to achieve
the American dream...a house in the suburb with white picket fence and
a SUV and a German Shepherd dog.

No other country except perhaps Canada & Australia are this generous to
immigrants from 3rd world countries. I am very proud to be a American
citizen, and have been since my arrival. This is a country where one can
start at the bottom and with hard work achieve a good life.

[FrenchieCat]

67. Last I checked, being from India is not quite the same as being

from the South Side of Chicago....but I understand why you would want to think so.

[ruggerson]

68. lol

touche

[dugggy]

69. The CEO's of some of the biggest corporations in US are African-Americans

How did they get so far ahead? I deal with Merrill Lynch
who is the biggest broker in country and their CEO is from
the south side of Chicago as you put it.

It all boils down to working harder than the next person
to get ahead. I have seen it time and again in my 40 years
of working in various outfits. (I am not that old, I had
2 jobs for several years LOL)

[FrenchieCat]

70. No one says that African-Americans can't get ahead......

It boils down to a lot of things, but per capita, White America has the edge, no matter how hard they work or don't--See Bush as a prime example.

[dugggy]

87. You are 100% correct white Americans have the edge

But me and you have proved beyond a shadow of doubt we
can out work and out smart the whites. I rose to corporate
Manager of Computer Aided Engineering and Manufacturing
by getting better at my craft than any white person
in my outfit of 1500 people.

If you don't think there was a lot of resentment amongst
SOME of the white Americans in observing a person from
3rd world country speaking with a thick accent promoted
to executive position, then you are certainly not a realist.

[AGirl]

81. Transgender and gender non conforming ppl too. We are more marginalized, I contest.

Alot of us in the community can't "pass" for "normal" either.

[Bluenorthwest]

84. Well it is not as bad as recent times suggest

I have had many years of experience with the two communities being mutually supportive. I have seen and been a part of some great events and works. I have been very upset about the McClurkin events in part because they paint a picture of black churchs that is far from universal, and these events put the spotlight on people who do harm to both communities, and most particularly those who are members of both communities. In addition to highlighting the bigoted and ignorant factions as if they were the full story, these events cast a spell of invisibility over many years of hard work by very courageous ministers and congregations, as well as Gospel artists. It is a shame and an injustice that McClurkin should be representing the relations between the communities instead of some of the heros who have worked for over 20 years now to battle the attitudes that lead to not just personal turmoil and individual tragedy, but to community wide health crisis.

[psychmommy]

85. i think the the biggest obstacle to this happening is:

white gays feel as though the aa struggle is over. they have the new civil rights struggle. all african americans (including the gay ones) know this is far from the truth. there is a white female impersonator out there in black face over-doing a black female character. this is an insult to me but, quite acceptable in the gay community. our struggle is far from over. when i brought this up on another thread i was attacked and called names. but, this has to be discussed. i was not taught gay bigotry in my home or church. i do not allow it in my home. i did recently see a sign that said how can a moral wrong be a civil right? this made me sad. it was not at a black church. it made me think of the pain it must cause when gay folks pass it. but, you have to realize that blacks feel that pain on a regular basis. it is not who is the biggest victim but respecting each others trials. know that your gay brothers and sisters are really going through it. they have to deal w/all of what we go through and the racism within the gay community.

[JoFerret]

86. And some people are both! (and female)

.