God himself condoned slavery.

[redqueen]

Poll question: God himself condoned slavery.

Some on DU believe in God?

Cause according to the logic of some around here, if you do that means you condone slavery, of course.

:eyes:


http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=132x5075995

[ElsewheresDaughter]

1. I don't understand your poll

[redqueen]

2. Do you understand this one?

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=132x5075995

[ElsewheresDaughter]

5. wow these are just silly

[redqueen]

7. Exactly. (nt)

[IndianaJones]

3. I think Jesus = Obama...I don't know what slavery is though. Vote yes. nt.

[redqueen]

4. Read the link I posted in response. Maybe that'll help you figure it out. (nt)

[IndianaJones]

6. So Jesus is Wright and slavery is "damn America"? nt.

[BlackVelvet04]

8. Quote the scripture where Jesus condoned slavery......n/t

[redqueen]

9. Exodus 21:20-21 Exodus 21:26-27

Specifically, he speaks about how severely one may beat one's "property".

[Bluerthanblue]

10. sorry RedQueen- that wasn't Jesus-

that was OT- where beating your wife and children with rods was good husbandry.

peace~

[redqueen]

11. Oops - good catch. (nt)

[Perky]

14. ummm yeah Oops.

:eyes:

[redqueen]

15. WTF is your problem?

Does it make it any less stupid if I put GOD in there?

:wtf:

Do you even see the point of this poll? Or are you just reacting in kneejerk mode?

Here's a hint, since you seem to be having trouble seeing past your enormous ego:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=132x5075995

[Perky]

19. Sorry I had not noticed you had changed the Subject of the OP

[BlackVelvet04]

29. I see you went back and changed the OP.....

the Old Testament is a completely different thing from Christianity.

[redqueen]

31. Yeah, so it's a really good thing my analogy wasn't meant as a critique of religion

but rather of the very shaky logic skills of some around here.

[BlackVelvet04]

36. ......

:eyes: Nice try but ridiculous.

[DadOf2LittleAngels]

37. What is your basis for that statement?

[musicblind]

33. It doesn't work the same with God because many Christians like myself

believe that the New Testament (a much more loving and peaceful book) came to replace the Old Testament or "scriptures". It is also understood among many Christians that God did not write the Bible. The Bible was written by man. Now Christians believe that Exodus was written by Moses. (Though some scholars disagree). Now Moses is considered a great man in our religion who was lucky enough to have close interactions with God on many occasions... but he is still just a man, who committed sins and even murdered someone. He wrote down those laws based on how he felt God wanted them written... it doesn't make them flawless because they still weren't by God's own hands. They were also written for a very specific group of people at a very specific time. The parts of the Bible that I consider most important is the teachings of Jesus and what actually is attributed to Jesus' mouth. Still, these portions of the Bible were written down well after Jesus' death by people who witnessed these things or in some cases the information was second hand. Long periods of time can often play tricks with your memory as we have learned in cognitive psychology. We have issues with flashbulb memories, etc.

I do not tell you this to be preachy or an ass. Just to let you know, because many people misunderstand my religion, and clump the opinions of more radical Christians with my opinions and the opinions of the rest.


As to your point. I agree in some ways and in some ways I do not. I do not want this to damage us in the GE and since it looks likely Obama will be the nominee there needs to be some fast work done on addressing this. I do think it matters though. I have left churches because I disagreed with the things that were being taught. If he did not agree in someway why did he stay? I personally do not think he agrees with this... but he needs a GOOD answer for why he choose to stay.

[Perky]

12. If you are going to quote Bible You had better understand the different testaments.

That was OT and Jesus did not show up for another 2,000 years and basically came to abolish the Law.

[redqueen]

13. I corrected it before you showed up...

but thanks for the "if you're gonna / you'd better" lecture. :eyes:

[Perky]

16. Hey you started the thread.....

:shrug:

[redqueen]

18. Hey you're a wonderful representative for whatever faith it is you subscribe to. (nt)

[Perky]

21. The point is that Jesus came to abolish the law

ans so while Slavery was extant at the time of the Giving of the Law. it has to be put in the historical context of when the law was given it was for a specific season for a specific purpose.

[IndianaJones]

23. I thought he came to fulfill it. nt

[BlackVelvet04]

30. when you fullfill it it's done...

like a contract. Once it's fulfilled there is no need to continue working. Get it? he didn't tear up the contract he fulfilled it.

[DadOf2LittleAngels]

39. The most common use of that word in the NT

πληρόω : Means to cause to abound. Though I have never myself seen anything definitive I think you giving me something interesting to study over the weekend as it *can* be translated to complete...

[theboss]

20. Not really

17"Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I have not come to abolish them but to fulfill them. 18I tell you the truth, until heaven and earth disappear, not the smallest letter, not the least stroke of a pen, will by any means disappear from the Law until everything is accomplished. 19Anyone who breaks one of the least of these commandments and teaches others to do the same will be called least in the kingdom of heaven, but whoever practices and teaches these commands will be called great in the kingdom of heaven. 20For I tell you that unless your righteousness surpasses that of the Pharisees and the teachers of the law, you will certainly not enter the kingdom of heaven.

Matthew 5:17-20

In some matters, Jesus was stricter than "the law."

27"You have heard that it was said, 'Do not commit adultery.' 28But I tell you that anyone who looks at a woman lustfully has already committed adultery with her in his heart. 29If your right eye causes you to sin, gouge it out and throw it away. It is better for you to lose one part of your body than for your whole body to be thrown into hell. 30And if your right hand causes you to sin, cut it off and throw it away. It is better for you to lose one part of your body than for your whole body to go into hell.

The point of his ministry is not that the Old Law passed away. The point is that the Law is not everything. The Pharisees were legalists who believed in abiding by a written code, but did not feel love in their hearts for God. Jesus is saying, abide by the old laws because a society needs laws (he later says that even Pagans follow these laws). However, you need to do more than simply abide by the rule book to see the face of God.

[Perky]

22. .

I was thinking of Hebrews. Which basically says that the law was a substitute for the perfect and now that the perfect has come.....

[BlackVelvet04]

28. Jesus didn't exist in the Old Testament.....

how pray tell did Jesus say that before he was born? You really don't know a thing about the Bible do you?

[redqueen]

32. I see that many around here aren't fans of reading before commenting. (nt)

[elixir]

34. Gosh, that could be someone's wife.

[LanternWaste]

17. There's a reason I dig you....

:spank:

There's a reason I dig you.... :P

[no_hypocrisy]

24. First slave cited in the Bible: Eve

[IndianaJones]

25. nice. nt.

[DadOf2LittleAngels]

26. Slavery in the Bible was not a life long condition

Slavery in the bible was far more akin to indentured servitude than what most Americans mean when they say slavery.

"When you buy a Hebrew slave, six years shall he serve; and in the seventh shall he go out free, for nothing. If he came in by himself, he shall go out by himself: if he were married, then his wife shall go out with him."

[goodgd_yall]

27. Depends on the God you believe in, I guess

I can only conclude the "Yes" votes come from people who think the God of the bible is a reflection of the Real Thing. Incredible!

[VotesForWomen]

35. wel, the god of the bible ceratinly does; he condones a lot of other evil too.

there really is no excuse to follow any religion based on that book.

[McCamy Taylor]

38. Whose god are you talking about? Not mine.

[JVS]

40. What would make anyone think that God has condoned a thing we've done since the fall?

Saying that Exodus' restrictions on treatment of a slave constitute an endorsement of slavery is using the same logic that some people use when they say that distributing condoms at schools is encouraging kids to have sex.

Also, throughout history mankind has moved from one method of production to another. These changes have been reflected in the economic systems arising from the forms of production. Each economic system has yielded its own morality concerning the economic ruling class and the working class. Under modern bourgeois capitalism the autonomy of the individual is so prized that the idea of a slave being owned is abhorrent, yet the same ethos of individual independence (or really just a lack of obligation) means that it is considered perfectly ethical to hire a person at such a low wage that they live in dire poverty and that if an employer can benefit from terminating the relationship, it is ok to allow that person to starve. In contrast the values of medieval feudalism were not as individualistic and would demand mutual responsibility between lord and serf, thus preventing such abuse as eliminating one's livelyhood, but the drawback is that this same anti-individualism does not give a rip about the serf's freedom (or at least what we would call freedom).

But what does this have to do with God? Does God approve? That upon kicking Adam and Eve out of the garden of Eden, he says
"By the sweat of your brow
you will eat your food
until you return to the ground,
since from it you were taken;
for dust you are
and to dust you will return." Gen 3:19
I am inclined to think that a Christian could claim the origin of the economic situation as a curse, no matter what era one is living in.