HRC is a liar and broke the pledge. She is unworthy to be POTUS.

[joeprogressive]

Put all other BS arguments aside for both candidates. One thing is unforgivable and that is HRC saying the Michigan results should stand when she patently lied when she said they had a choice to remove their names. She failed to say anything about the pledge she took. She is a bald faced liar that can't be trusted.

I can't believe I was actually defending her to a colleague today. No more. She has crossed the line so many times but this is too much. As Randi stated on her show, Hillary is a cheater. Plain and simple, HRC is a cheater. Anyone that defends her is defending cheating the system.

We live in a Democratic society and their our rules that make that system work. If we don't follow the rules, and let one power hungry individual make up the rules as they go, our system will collapse.

[annie1]

1. then kucinich is a liar too. GET HIM! ZOMG!

[grantcart]

3. Kucinich tried to have his name taken off the ballot but screwed up the paperwork

[k8conant]

5. Either that or Michigan didn't process it in time (Dodd was still on too)

[MonkeyFunk]

16. He also campaigned in Michigan

in direct violation of the pledge.

Obama had ads running in Florida, in direct violation of the pledge.

Clinton kept to the pledge 100%. Nothing in the pledge said she wouldn't ask for a rule change later.

[joeprogressive]

18. If she campaigned there and put her name on the ballot, tell me

how that is sticking to the pledge 100%.

[MonkeyFunk]

21. Because she didn't campaign in FL or MI

and there was no requirement to remove her name from the ballot.

That was an easy one.

[grantcart]

42. You can keep repeating that old canard or you can have us respect you

even though we disagree on a lot of things but you cannot have both.

[MonkeyFunk]

50. I could care less about respect

from idiots.

The fact is, Clinton kept to the pledge. Obama didn't. Kucinich didn't.

[grantcart]

69. It has been debunked continuously and you have convinced no one

Hillary's 4 fund raisers in FL generated substantial local coverage. Obama had no participation in any campaigning in Florida.

You will now bring up a few national television ads that spilled over to Florida markets. This can easily be countered by using the

same logic as saying that Hillary's comments in USA Today and the New York Times that are distributed in Florida constituted

campaigning. But no one wants to promote such an obviously childish argument - you have it all by yourself.


Read the pleadge will not "participate" Obama maintained that pledge and did not participate and had his name removed (in Florida

candidates cannot have their names removed, the Secretary of State determines candidates based on his/her determination that they

may have viability on the contest). Hillary continued to "participate" in the MI elections by not attempting to remove her name.

Her contention today that the Michigan results should now be seated have been widely and soundly ridiculed.



You can peddle your foolishness with your friends if you want but in here you are boring and tendentious.


You have the compelling arguements of the 5 year old screaming "she did, she did, she did" hold your breath stomp your feet. Your

arguments on Florida and Michigan are devoid of fact or reason and convince no one.

Its nap time.

[MonkeyFunk]

71. No, it's never been debunked

Fact: fundraisers were specifically allowed in the pledge
Fact: nothing in the pledge required the removal of names from the ballot
Fact: both Obama and Clinton held fundraisers in Florida
Fact: Only one candidate ran ads in Florida: Barack Obama


Hillary Clinton did not violate the pledge in any way.

[joeprogressive]

55. Link?

If he did, I liken it to someone calling a truce, the other agreeing then continuing to pummel the other person. If the person being tricked puts up his hands in defense, is he breaking the truce?

[MonkeyFunk]

67. But nobody broke any truce regarding Michigan

These arguments are getting lamer and lamer.

People just have to accept that Clinton didn't violate the pledge in any way.

[fairyforest]

56. I don't think Obama campaigned in MIchigan

Are you sure?

[MonkeyFunk]

65. No, Kucinich did

http://www.freep.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20080110/NEWS15/80110086

[joeprogressive]

4. A) Did he take the pledge? B) Is he running still? That's what I thought.

[annie1]

i thought they all did, no? and no he's not running, should he have stopped running...

if he "broke the pledge"?

[Yes We Did]

7. Don't try to spin this. The point is the she DID take the pledge.

[joeprogressive]

8. From what I understand, Kucinich made an attempt to remove his name

Clinton made no such attempt and neither did Dodd. If Dodd were in HRC's position now I doubt he would be trying to seat Michigan as is. But if he was I would be calling him a cheat and a liar also.

[annie1]

13. ah, well at least you're being fair. : ). i read it as she was a liar just for keeping her name on

[grantcart]

2. What she said about Michigan is silly - What she said about McCain is treacherous

[Yes We Did]

6. And then wnen she said MI was fair... How dumb does she think we are?

Oh wait, I forgot about her demographics.

[gabeana]

9. She lied

KO had the actual rule on his show tonight
Hillary supporters will just overlook this

[joeprogressive]

10. They are in complete and utter denial of anything she does. It is

so F****** disgusting.

[saracat]

11. Unlike the Obama folks who see nothig wrong in anything he does!

Michigan needs to be revoted Florida should be seated JMHO. And the FDP should besanctioned or fined.

[joeprogressive]

14. First of all, nothing rises to this level of deception. Second, I would agree with

you on the re-vote. Fine, let Florida stand even though they knowingly broke the rules and re-do Michigan. Either way, HRC still loses in the end and continues to hurt our GE chances. Bill's numbers are sinking and eventually, HRC will become so unpopular she will kill any future chance of winning the presidency.

[Ravy]

35. Nothing rises to this level of deception, except doing the exact same thing.

Obama's name was on the Florida ballot, also covered by the same pledge.

So *if* (and it is a big if) Clinton broke the pledge, Obama did, too.

[superkia]

39. And both sides supporters are in denial to what is taking place.

I think both states should have new primary dates and give everyone an opportunity to forget that this nonsense took place. The elite must be laughing their asses off as they watch democrats attacking...each other LOL! After staying here on DU during the primary season, I realize that we should be voting for McCain, at least thats how it looks. Everyone that follows their candidates little email things, the medias talking points and keeps starting posts to destroy each other, are just seeing to it that McCain is our next POTUS. Good job to you all, I'm sure if you search for it, you can find yourselves a McCain avatar!

Turn off the tv for a moment, stop getting the emails from your candidates and try to think for yourselves for a minute. I believe the American people can think for themselves and stand against the elite that are stealing our country. Its possible, we are not hamsters...or are we? Will we stand together or fall divided?


When the one child says something about your friends, be the bigger person and don't bring up things about theirs...IGNORE THEM AND MOVE ON! Some of you should ask your children to read your posts before you actually post, I bet they would tell you that you are all being childish and accomplishing NOTHING but destroying each other, you know, the chance of a democrat getting in office.


Whats the goal of DU, are we TRYING to elect McCain?

[fairyforest]

57. Votes should be counted

Michigan people are upset right now.

[kikiek]

12. The pledge was to not campaign. Had nothing to do with taking your name off the ballot. It was a

strategic move on Obama and Edward's part to suck up to Iowa and NH by further punishing MI for moving up their primary.
Now you may be wondering why the candidates have decided to do this…D’oh

Simple. They’re hoping for short term political gain. This is actually a big issue in Iowa and New Hampshire; voters there care about preserving their early primaries. Going above and beyond their pledge not to campaign in Michigan, backing out of the primary is a good way for a candidate to score some points in Iowa and New Hampshire.

Given that the candidates had already pledged not to campaign in Michigan, today’s move serves no real purpose. Rather, it’s a foolish decision that could hurt Democrats in the general election. Democrats are already dealing with negative sentiment surrounding this issue in Florida (a key swing state) and now they’ll have to deal with the repercussions of frustrated voters in Michigan (a leaning Democratic state, but certainly not one that a presidential candidate running in a general election should take for granted). Sure, these candidates may have helped themselves in the primary (although I don’t really think it’ll be that much help) but their decision today will hurt them in the general election should they get that far.

http://2008central.net/2007/10/09/obama-edwards-richardson-and-biden-pull-out-of-michigan-primary/

[joeprogressive]

15. You are completely wrong. Read the pledge. They pledged to

take no part in the election process. That includes having your name on the ballot. I guess only HRC and Dodd saw it differently. Everyone else knew what it meant. But we do know Clinton makes very poor decisions. It started with IWR and the hits just keep on comin.

[kikiek]

17. No you are wrong, but it doesn't matter. You aren't able to really look at the facts. Bet you didn't

even read the article. Go on. Goodbye.

[joeprogressive]

19. I'm not going anywhere and will joyfully be here after Obama wipes the

floor w/Hillary. BTW here it is, try to educate yourself. I know HRC are less educated but you can do it.

http://msnbcmedia.msn.com/i/msnbc/sections/news/070831_Final_Pledge.pdf

[kikiek]

20. Copy of THE PLEDGE

August 31, 2007

WHEREAS, Over a year ago, the Democratic National Committee established a 2008 nominating calendar;

WHEREAS, this calendar honors the racial, ethnic, economic and geographic diversity of our party and our country;

WHEREAS, the DNC also honored the traditional role of retail politics early in the nominating process, to insure that money alone will not determine our presidential nominee;

WHEREAS, it is the desire of Presidential campaigns, the DNC, the states and the American people to bring finality, predictability and common sense to the nominating calendar.

THEREFORE, I _______________, Democratic Candidate for President, pledge I shall not campaign or participate in any state which schedules a presidential election primary or caucus before Feb. 5, 2008, except for the states of Iowa, Nevada, New Hampshire and South Carolina, as “campaigning” is defined by rules and regulations of the DNC.

Hillary, Obama and Edwards all agreed to the pledge on September 1, 2007.

Now, can people stop saying that Hillary Clinton agreed the votes in Florida or Michigan wouldn't count or to the non-seating of the delegates? It prohibited only campaigning. Even fundraising was allowed.
http://www.talkleft.com/story/2008/3/9/201240/0802

[joeprogressive]

22. What does "or participate" mean to you?

Are you people impaired?

[kikiek]

23. As definied by the DNC it didn't mean removing their names from the ballet!

DAH!

[joeprogressive]

25. Then why did everyone signing the pledge either do it or attempt to do it except Dodd and Clinton?

[Ravy]

28. To pander to Iowa voters. It worked, too. nt

[kikiek]

37. Campaign strategy. Nothing more.

[kikiek]

26. Oh and hey smart guy why did Obama leave his name on the FL ballot then? SAME PLEDGE

And the only one to campaign there was OBMAMA

[joeprogressive]

43. Wolfson said he didn't campaign. Read the article.

http://www.thenation.com/blogs/thebeat?pid=276341

looks like only HRC did.

[Skip Intro]

48. But if his name was on the ballot, then he was participating, right?

Oh, I forgot, the rules are different for Obama.

Btw, every campaign but his was able to keep ads off the FL airwaves. Wonder how that could be?

[kikiek]

51. Haha you're wrong again. It is well known fact Obama was the one who campaigned.

Obama's campaign launched national television advertisements on CNN and MSNBC that are shown in Florida -- a "blatant" violation of a pledge signed by all of the top Democratic candidates to not campaign in the state,
AND the real reason he never wanted FL to count\

At this point, said Smith, neither Obama nor Clinton have incentive to campaign in Florida. Because he continues to trail Clinton in the polls here, Obama should focus instead on Feb. 5, when 22 states hold primary elections, Smith said.

Clinton would not benefit either, Smith said. Breaking the pledge would be seen as a sign that her campaign sees support waning in the state.

The only candidate that would benefit at this point would be John Edwards,, who "has nothing to lose" by breaking the pledge. If he set up a rally in Florida, he could give himself a shot at winning over the state's Democrats who are desperate to see a real candidate.

"I don't see how it would hurt him in the slightest," Smith said.

And she won FL as predicted.

[Arkansas Granny]

32. Read the pledge. It says nothing about removing names from ballots.

Four State Pledge Letter 2008
Iowa, New Hampshire, Nevada, South Carolina
August 31, 2007
WHEREAS, Over a year ago, the Democratic National Committee established a
2008 nominating calendar;
WHEREAS, this calendar honors the racial, ethnic, economic and geographic
diversity of our party and our country;
WHEREAS, the DNC also honored the traditional role of retail politics early in the
nominating process, to insure that money alone will not determine our
presidential nominee;
WHEREAS, it is the desire of Presidential campaigns, the DNC, the states and
the American people to bring finality, predictability and common sense to the
nominating calendar.
THEREFORE, I _______________, Democratic Candidate for President, pledge
I shall not campaign or participate in any state which schedules a presidential
election primary or caucus before Feb. 5, 2008, except for the states of Iowa,
Nevada, New Hampshire and South Carolina, as “campaigning” is defined by
rules and regulations of the DNC.
___________________________ __________
John/Jane Doe, Doe for President DATE

http://msnbcmedia.msn.com/i/msnbc/sections/news/070831_Final_Pledge.pdf

[DesEtoiles]

27. she pledged "not to participate" then she said she was smart "to participate"

[kikiek]

31. They didn't have to remove their names as OBAMA didn't in FL! He campaigned there too!

Which was AGAINST the pledge.

[kikiek]

38. And why did Obama leave his name then on FL? Because it wasn't part of their agreements.Wake up!

[Ravy]

24. And OBAMA broke the pledge in Florida. Where is Gore????

We have to get those bald-faced liars off of our ticket, NOW!

:sarcasm:

See the shit Olbermann stirs up by telling half the story????


And for those of you about to post that Florida wouldn't let them remove their names. The right thing to do is NOT SIGN THE PLEDGE IF YOU CANNOT ABIDE BY IT.


Dean said it was okay to leave the names on. I trust Chairman Dean.

[DesEtoiles]

29. well, that's a big lie

His national ad buy was approved in advance by the DNC.

[kikiek]

33. He broke the pledge! They promised to not campaign. Bottom line! And no one had to remove their name

in either state!

[Ravy]

36. It is not a lie. The post was

about him leaving his name on the ballot.


BTW, the DNC has denied giving permission for those ads.

http://blogs.abcnews.com/politicalradar/2008/01/obama-wrong-abo.html


edited to add link.

[fightthegoodfightnow]

30. She's Pissing Off a Lot of Former Supporters

I was one of them as recently as two months ago. What's clear is that rather than pandering to the best we (and hopefully our candidates) have to offer, she is pandering to fear, deceit, mischaracterizations, and sleeze politics. Even if she wins the nomination, I fear she is jeopardizing the election. But then again, she is the Queen of fear, right next to King George.

[K Gardner]

34. Agreed. We cannot afford another liar and cheat in the WH. Hillary is both.

[kikiek]

40. Obama is a big disappointment to you then.

[K Gardner]

45. #5

[kikiek]

53. Naw it couldn't be too relevent since you won't bother to type it.

[Tellurian]

41. Joe Progressive is a liar and broke the pledge. His threads are untrustworthy

[joeprogressive]

44. Then don't respond. Please put me on ignore and continue to go down

with the sinking ship. Then, when Obama wins, never come back here. In fact here is a pledge I will take if you will agree to it. The loser never posts here again. Got confidence in your candidate? Prove it.

[Tellurian]

54. I don't need to pledge anything to you.. Hillary will win the nomination..

That is an embarrassment YOU will have to live with. I don't support snake oil salesman. Unfortunately you cannot say the same.

[joeprogressive]

58. Code for I am a chickens*** that really knows my candidate is in deep trouble.

If you are so confident take the pledge and have the opportunity to never hear from me again.

[Tellurian]

62. Are you 10 yrs old? Do your parents know you're still playing on the puter?

If I never want to hear from you again.. I can remedy that myself in a second..

Now get to bed. The feather ball is waiting for you!

Sweet Dreams!

[joeprogressive]

64. Once again you demonstrate you have no confidence in your candidate.

You only have empty rhetoric. If you had guts you would match my challenge. I can keep my word. I would never come back here again if Obama lost the primary. C'mon have some guts for once in your life.

[Tellurian]

70. I have no confidence I'm conversing with an adult..

You'll have to prove it to me somehow..

[K Gardner]

46. Someone from Hillaryis44 calling the OP a "liar". That's rich, coming right out of the sewer.

[joeprogressive]

49. Do you think she'll take my pledge? Nothing but crickets so far.

[K Gardner]

60. No.. but I'd take it against any of the trolls in here.. there's about a clear dozen of them

that just keep this place stirred up and they all belong at Free Republic.

[Tellurian]

61. Ah, yes..the typical rude and crude post...must be an Obama supporter

or waining supporter slowly deleting the Obama logo as we watch all evidence of supporting Obama vanish before our eyes. I take it, you've replaced Obama's picture with your own and intentionally done away with the "OBAMA 2008" in the sig...

[Skip Intro]

47. And Obama's a liar, said he woudln't run for prez in 05. Said he didn't want to play politics w Iraq

but broke that pledge, and said last Nov on MTP that it was due to his own political calculation that he needed to ease up on his anti-Iraq war stance in 2004 because Kerry and Edwards was running.

Let him be the one that goes down saying Democratic voters in FL and MI are worthless. Let him. I'm all for it.

[joeprogressive]

52. If everyone that is forced to answer the stupid "are you running for POTUS"

answered it no and was disqualified if they did, we wouldn't have any presidents. Give me a break; try comparing apples to apples. She was not trustworthy on IWR, Iran, or the pledge. There is no comparison unless you live in Hillary Fantasy Land.

[Ravy]

59. But you seem to be ignoring the posts about Obama leaving his

name on in Florida, thereby breaking the same pledge in the exact same way. *If* that is breaking the pledge, Dean says no on that.

[joeprogressive]

63. Why would he after what she pulled in Michigan. Plus he consulted

with Democratic leaders concerning national ads. http://www.swamppolitics.com/news/politics/blog/2008/01/obama_campaign_responds_to_cli.html

Everyone knows it is HRC gaming the system except for the delusional here.

[AZBlue]

66. K/R

[Oilwellian]

68. Hillary's pledge to the Democratic Party

Assuming she's still a member of the Democratic Party and cares about abiding by the rules of her party, then one would think the following pledge would be adhered to:

THEREFORE, I Hillary Rodham Clinton, Democratic Candidate for President, pledge I shall not campaign or participate in any state which schedules a presidential election primary or caucus before Feb. 5, 2008, except for the states of Iowa, Nevada, New Hampshire and South Carolina, as “campaigning” is defined by rules and regulations of the DNC.

I've seen over and over the argument that Obama campaigned in Florida because his ads spilled over from South Carolina into some northern Florida homes. Floridians knew in advance that their vote wouldn't count so the "campaigning" issue is moot. The part of this pledge that is conveniently overlooked is the "or participate in" phrase. Everyone signed a PLEDGE agreeing not to participate in the FL or MI primary. I thought one's pledge was considered to be their word, and the minute we start letting our Democratic leaders break their word, we will be no better than Republicans and their disdain for rules.

[kerry-is-my-prez]

72. Obama had campagin ads in Florida so he broke the pledge also.

n/t

[From The Left]

73. Excellent Point!!!!