Some FL Legislators conniving to pass law to force seating delegates OR not be on ballot in Nov

[seafan]

So, is this blackmail, extortion or all-out war ramping up?


Somebody wants to seat those illegitimate delegates VERY BADLY.



St. Petersburg Times, March 8, 2008

...Meanwhile some state legislators are toying with a hardball tactic to try to force the national Democratic Party to seat Florida's delegates: pass a law that says any party that doesn't seat delegates based on Florida's Jan. 29 primary doesn't get to have its nominee on the November ballot.

Getting my torch and pitchfork ready.

[StevieM]

1. A fair law. Florida should not be disenfranchised by the party bosses and the corrupt Obama machine

eom

[blogslut]

4. Conflate much?

Florida legislators (republican and democratic) voted 115:1 to move their primary up. In doing so, they violated Democratic party rules. Barack Obama has nothing to do with a state that failed at the "who gets to matter" primary game.

[Zhade]

23. Hey, LOOK HERE YOU - facts!

Liars for Clinton don't like those much.

[SoCalDem]

43. and McCain's probably going to win that one anyway

He's good buddies with Crist and we have the Jebster and who knows what kind of dodgy ballots they are deaming up?

When Momma says don't do THIS or THAT will happen..and you do it anyway?? well.. you get my drift..

[StevieM]

29. So the state of Florida must abide by the desires of Boss Dean? Screw that, Hillary won (eom)

x

[blogslut]

31. Wah wah wah

She won by campaigning in a state that she knew had been denied delegates. How you can accept that is your business.

[MonkeyFunk]

32. She didn't campaign there

i'm constantly amazed how easy people tell lies here.

[blogslut]

33. Oh?

Clinton to Campaign in Florida


Jan 27, 5:12 PM (ET)

By MIKE GLOVER

SARASOTA, Fla. (AP) - Democrat Hillary Rodham Clinton said Sunday she was going to Florida to assure Democrats that "their voices are heard" and to underscore her commitment to seeing the state's delegation seated at the national convention.

Though the Democratic presidential candidates largely have heeded the national party's request that they not campaign publicly in Florida, Clinton said it's time to pay attention to voters there who are showing heavy interest in Tuesday's primary. Early voting is under way and drawing strong interest, she said.

"Hundreds of thousands of people have already voted in Florida and I want them to know I will be there to be part of what they have tried to do to make sure their voices are heard," Clinton said in Memphis, Tenn., before heading for Florida..."

link: http://apnews.myway.com/article/20080127/D8UEG4RG0.html

Story dated January, 27 - two days before the Florida primary.

[MonkeyFunk]

34. She went there AFTER the primary

don't be stupid.

[mythyc]

35. address this lie then

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=132x4999411

[MonkeyFunk]

36. She pledged not to campaign in FL and MI

that's the extent of the pledge. The only candidates to break the letter of the pledge were Kucinich, in Michigan, and Obama, in Florida.

This has been gone over again and again and again. Clinton didn't campaign in Florida before the primary. She kept to her pledge.

Nothing in the pledge says they can't try to seat the delegates.

[Slagathor]

46. Then she lied. She's a liar. She campaigned.

why trust that liar?

[MonkeyFunk]

53. What are you talking about?

She didn't campaign there. She visited AFTER the primary. Surely you don't believe the pledge meant they could never set foot in Florida ever again?

No, she kept the pledge completely. Obama didn't, though. He ran ads there.

[mythyc]

66. you can't be serious, can you? nice epic evasion there monfun

ok, so i'll put the two word's from the horse's own mouth here and watch as the crickets come into chorus without a peep from you.

She did not pledge not to campaign. She pledged to honor the DNC nomination calender. in her own words.

sheesh :eyes: it must suck to have to lie to defend a lie

---------------------------------------------------------

Clinton Campaign Official, Public Statement on the DNC's Michigan and Florida pledge:

"We believe Iowa, New Hampshire, Nevada and South Carolina play a unique and special role in the nominating process. And we believe the DNC's rules and its calender provide the necessary structure to respect and honor that role. Thus, we will be signing the pledge to adhere to the DNC approved nominating calendar."

Official Release of the The Hillary Clinton Campaign
September 1, 2007 (the next day! so prompt...)

"nominating" calender ... no----mi---na----tin----guh . not campaining

---------------------------------------------------------

and here's the pledge she singed:

THEREFORE, I, HILLARY DIANE RODHAM CLINTON, Democratic Candidate for President, pledge I shall not campaign or participate in any state which schedules a presidential election primary or caucus before Feb. 5, 2008, except for the states of Iowa, Nevada, New Hampshire and South Carolina, as "campaigning" is defined by rules and regulations of the DNC.

I know some basic vocabulary may be making that confusing for you, so here's a refresher course, courtesy of dictionary.com:

Dictionary.com Unabridged (v 1.1) - Cite This Source - Share This
par·tic·i·pate /pɑrˈtɪsəˌpeɪt/ (pahr-tis-uh-peyt) verb, -pat·ed, -pat·ing.
–verb (used without object)
to take or have a part or share, as with others; partake; share (usually fol. by in): to participate in profits; to participate in a play.

ooooo, oooo, i like this one:

American Heritage Dictionary - Cite This Source - Share This
par·tic·i·pate (pär-tĭs'ə-pāt') Pronunciation Key
v. par·tic·i·pat·ed, par·tic·i·pat·ing, par·tic·i·pates

v. intr.

1. To take part in something: participated in the festivities.
2. To share in something: If only I could participate in your good fortune.

-----

sometimes i know the nuances of words can get us, definition of is is and such, so here's another one

WordNet - Cite This Source - Share This
participate

verb
1. share in something
2. become a participant; be involved in; "enter a race"; "enter an agreement"; "enter a drug treatment program"; "enter negotiations"


--------------------------

whatever. we all know you'll have no reply to the actual truth here. probably crickets, though i could also see some non-answer on another issue come drooling out.

[blogslut]

38. She went before

The Florida primary was January 29. This other article has her there on January 28:

http://www.thenation.com/blogs/thebeat?pid=276341

[MonkeyFunk]

40. She didn't campaign there

she held a private fundraiser. Obama also held a fundraiser in Sarasota, AND he gave a press conference afterward.

Fundraisers were fully within the rules - the pledge specifically allowed them.

She didn't have a public appearance in FLorida until AFTER the primary.

[blogslut]

41. So they both unofficially campaigned there for one day

Hillary got 800,000 votes and Barack Obama got 500,000 for an election that didn't count in a state that broke the rules. Since then, your candidate has courted Florida like a love-struck suitor. She knew what she was doing before and she damned well knows what she's doing now. She's fighting for her political life against all odds and at the risk of tearing our party apart.

Do you really want us to suffer through court cases and injunctions and a deathmatch at the convention? Do you want us to waste money, resources and time on who's winning the primary instead of how we can win in the GE?

[MonkeyFunk]

44. No they didn't

they didn't campaign there. The pledge specifically allowed fundraisers.

Obama, though, did meet with the press and air commercials there.

We don't need court cases and injunctions - the DNC can just do the right thing and seat the delegates. Nobody was harmed by moving the date forward. Iowa and New Hampshire still had their special status. South Carolina and Nevada still went first. There was no harm. The penalty is arbitrary and draconian.

[Sancho]

60. Hillary did not campaign here. Obama ran ads..there simply is no question.

I intend to vote Democratic regardless of candidate, but Hillary bashing is silly.

It would not surprise me to have a November ballot with no Democratic candidate. The GOP has manipulated this state every election for the last decade, and we have had two Bushes instead of a two-term Al Gore as president.

[StevieM]

67. Had Florida voted on Super Tuesday then at most Barack could have campaigned there for

one day. It would have made no difference. What he means when he says: "I couldn't campaign there" is that he couldn't outspend her by 5 to 1. Like he did in Wisconsin (although you never would have known that to listen to the MSM).

Steve

[SunsetDreams]

8. no more than the ones....

who were told that their vote wouldn't count and didn't even show up to vote.

The Florida legislature disenfrachised voters by moving up the primary against DNC rules. They were warned ahead of that they would lose delegates by doing so, the candidates agreed to the rule. They did it anyway.

Now the ones that are pushing to seat those delegates as is, including Hillary, are in fact quilty of trying to do the same thing to the people who didn't show up because their votes wouldn't count.

I say split it 50/50, that way no one benefits.

[LisaL]

19. Split it 50-50?

Why should someone get 50 % of votes someone didn't earn?

[SunsetDreams]

49. neither of them earned it...

they both agreed to the rules

[LordJFT]

24. you mean by the florida state party?

[SunsetDreams]

50. yes sorry

[ellisonz]

48. Nuts?

:-)

[SunsetDreams]

51. sorry I'm fresh out of nuts ;)

[Kittycat]

2. That won't hold up in the court of law.

[LisaL]

3. What does Obama need FL for?

He is gonna win all those red states, dont' you know?

[babylonsister]

7. A fair vote is a fair vote. If people don't think their vote would count,

they probably wouldn't bother. Would you?

[jackson_dem]

39. Florida had the 4th highest turnout of any state. 1.7 million Democrats voted

That is more than the number of rethugs voted for their "fair" primary. Do folks vote for fun?

[leftofcool]

9. LOL

[QC]

11. Red states? He's gonna win *all* the states, Miss Priss!

When he its 'em with his preachertalk they will all fall in line and he will be declared President-for-Life!

[leftofcool]

13. I heard one Obamanoid refer to him as a king

[LisaL]

14. I heard he can walk on water.

[QC]

20. He healed me of my painful piles! Glory!

[MadBadger]

15. No, he's my Messiah.

[leftofcool]

22. Saw a Freeper Bumper Sticker yesterday

John McCain.......because we already have a Messiah

[ExtraGriz]

30. lol..he got utah and wyoming!

[babylonsister]

5. Not gonna happen; I think Howard Dean has pretty much said that,

and I'm sure Obama's campaign/people/strategists would agree.

This really sucks. NO ONE had the foresight to know what a bad move this would be? If Clinton gets FL's or MI's votes, I'd be shocked and totally appalled, and I'm not alone. Dean knows that.

[Johnny__Motown]

6. Unconstitutional,. this has already been explored. It can't possibly hold up

[MonkeyFunk]

37. Do you have a reference to that?

This is the first I've ever seen this approach mentioned - where was it explored?

[malletgirl02]

10. Sorry to use a cliche

Isn't this known cutting your nose to spite your face?

[QC]

12. Not for the Republicans--it'll make them the only one on the ballot.

With the exceptions of the Greens and the Beer Drinker's Party and the like.

[LisaL]

17. Will save McCain the trouble of actually campaigning in FL.

[UALRBSofL]

16. I find the OP's use of the word illegitimate as very troubling

because the delegates represent it's constituents of Florida I believe the OP is inferring the voters are illegitimate. However, that being said, I also think the OP is posting this article to get a negative response from the Obama supporters because it's obvious this OP-ED piece states "some state legislators". I take this article with little credibility as I would the National Enquirer because there is no reliable sources.

[gravity]

18. Goodluck to them

I'm sure that the citizens of Florida would love to be disenfranchised by the state a second time.

[mrreowwr_kittty]

21. To be honest, I wouldn't be bothered that much if they did.

That way Florida wouldn't even be an issue and the party wouldn't be throwing millions of dollars at the futile effort of trying to win it. Just write it off and concentrate on other states we might actually have a chance of picking up.

The same goes for Ohio.

[ContinentalOp]

68. Yeah but then it saves McCain a ton of money that he can spend elsewhere.

And if there are any election shenanigans going on, that effort to steal the vote can shift elsewhere as well.

[Catherina]

25. I'll fully back Howard Dean whatever he does

The Clinton-supporting Democrat who wrote the legislation to move up their Primary date, Senator Jeremy Ring -D, ran on on a pledge to do just that over the objections of the DNC and Florida voters voted for him to support that folly.

Fuck Hillary and the conservative base she's counting on in Florida.

[CyberPieHole]

26. Sounds good to me. Seat the delegates. Hillary won them fair and square. n/t

[UALRBSofL]

27. Some comments to the OP's post

by steve 03/08/08 10:50 PM
Where was the leadership of this state when the party told them what the consequence was for their actions. No to do overs. No to those who voted for this so that Florida would matter and now we don't matter. Just desserts.
by Ann 03/08/08 10:30 PM
The "electors" that you're referring to, Minerva are part of the Electoral College, not the Democratic National Convention. If there has to be a 2nd primary, then DNC should pay for it. Since when does a committee tell a state what to do anyway?
by jan 03/08/08 09:58 PM
I hate it when people call us "disenfranchised"...we've had our basic citizenship rights hijacked by our own government. We've been Un-Americanized. I'm a vet. I didn't serve my country to have my vote TAKEN AWAY. I want my voice back NOW.
by Gene 03/08/08 09:17 PM
I will not re-vote in FL, my original vote should count! The voters didn't change the primary date! If my original vote don't count, then McCain will get my vote come Nov.!
by jackie 03/08/08 07:59 PM
not my taxpayer dollar for stupidity. Between the 4 million Charlie spent advertising Amend.1 and now this..lots of $ that could or could of gone for a better use. Shame on all these lawmakers. They should chip in for stupidity
by fl voter 03/08/08 07:04 PM
Crist is definitely a publicity whore. He knew what the consequences were when he signed the new primary date into law. Why does he have amnesia now? The words re-vote make me cringe.
by fl voter 03/08/08 07:01 PM
That Mi governor is off her rocker. Now we are SELLING votes to the highest bidder? Once again, the republicans are embarrasing the state of FL. This is Crist's fault for moving the primary date to Jan. He knew what he was doing.
by Mad inMichigan 03/08/08 06:45 PM
I know where Michigan could get some of the money to pay for theirs: Levinò019s campaign reports today that he ended 2007 with almost $3.9 million in the bank for his re-election campaign.
by Tom 03/08/08 06:02 PM
The man now running for president on a message of giving a voice to the voiceless. But when it comes to walking the talk, he shows his true colours.
by Minerva 03/08/08 06:01 PM
Art. II Sec. 1 of the Constitution says State Legislatures have power to decide how 'electors' of President are chosen in their state.Constitution says nothing about party bylaws or parties. Howard Dean violates the Constitution.Jail Dictator Dean.
by richarf 03/08/08 05:44 PM
My vote did not count then and thay should not get a 2nd chance. Have you ever played a game with your childern and have them teach you the rules when they are winning they play the rules but as soon as they start to lose they try to change them
by Bob 03/08/08 05:43 PM
NO!! Absolutely not! We already voted, use those results. There is no other alternative or reason to do it again. If they didn't want a problem, the stupid Fl. Democratic party should have kept the date where it was and avoided all this nonsense.
by Torrence 03/08/08 05:01 PM
THANK YOU CHARLIE CRIST for standing up for the voters in our state. Right is right, and if your previous vote doesn't count because Obama is too whiny, we should have another one.
by Ray 03/08/08 04:22 PM
I am a Repub. but not for long because a Rep controlled FL legislature voted to change the date of the primary and once again we (FL) look like idiots to the rest of the country. It's wrong for all the people who voted not to have their vote count.
by Debbie 03/08/08 03:48 PM
We accept your resignation Crist. Get the he!! out of Florida before you completely ruin it. A RECORD NUMBER OF PEOPLE VOTED IN THE PRIMARY - COUNT IT OR SHOVE IT HOWARD DEAN. AS LONG AS YOU CAN BLOW YOUR HOT AIR AND BE THE FINAL SAY SO, YOU'RE HAPPY
by tim 03/08/08 01:49 PM
These are the same people who have contested every election they didn't win up to forcing Florida taxpayers to spend $30 million on new voting machines
by Dale 03/08/08 12:01 PM
HAHAHAHA!!! And you dems want the government to control your healthcare?! Wait till they amputate your leg and then ask for a do-over!
by Sam 03/08/08 11:27 AM
The more I see Marco Rubio's name..the more I dislike the man.
by A. Democrat 03/08/08 10:51 AM
The state followed the law, the DNC followed their rules. The DNC is now in trouble and THEY should be solely responisible to find a way out. Why should our tax dollars pay for a re-do? Let the party solve it on the convention floor.
by Steve 03/08/08 10:10 AM
I say no we already voted, let the vote stand!!
by Dave 03/08/08 09:36 AM
I don't want any of my tax money used just because a bunch of idiots screwed up! Maybe Hillary can "loan" herself $25 million and pay for another election!
by Don 03/08/08 08:47 AM
Tipical of democrats, they want tax payers to pay for their screw-ups. Democrats are traitors. They can go to hell.
by Russ 03/08/08 08:45 AM
Gov. Crist is doing his best to prolong the Democratic Primary fight, in hopes of damaging both Clinton and Obama, by suggesting a primary do over. the Democratic National Committee should just split the delegates - 50% for each candidate.
by Russ 03/08/08 08:36 AM
It was the Republican-controlled Florida legislature that voted to hold the stateò019s primary in January, thus disenfranchising the stateò019s Democratic voters. Why is this never mentioned during coverage of this story?
by Ray 03/08/08 08:35 AM
If dems want redo.. make Howard Dean pay for it...
by Will K. 03/08/08 08:31 AM
Has anyone considered why Hillary does better in primary elections and Obama does better in caucuses? Perhaps it is because when voting people indicate their preference, and in caucuses there is the intimidation of the crowd. Go Hillary.
by Larry 03/08/08 08:23 AM
Why is it the above listed parties or politicians were fine with the decision made last year and now it's a total reverse. It is crystal clear now that they could care less about the will of the people unless it benefits themselves.
by Kevin 03/08/08 08:01 AM
There should be no do-over. The DNC made a decision and they must now live with the consequences. The true solution is a US Constitution amendment establishing date and primary rules for all registered political parties.
by Jason 03/08/08 07:41 AM
I remember when Howard Dean acted like a donkey in front of the media when he ran for president and now look at who the donkey is again, I, as a Republican do feel bad that Florida's and Mich. dems votes won't count?? Their goes the constitution!
by Pete 03/08/08 07:32 AM
hey save the money and just count the voting that was done. Why waste 25 million more when everyone who got to vote voted. Quit crying foul and let our numbers speak for themselves
by russ 03/08/08 06:53 AM
just the votes in florida both were on ballot so thats fair
by Vale 03/08/08 06:51 AM
The politicians knew when they moved the primary they were violating the rules. The voters knew when they voted that they were in violation. You blatantly broke the rules, and now you're being punished. Thats how things work. Better luck in 2012.
by andy 03/08/08 06:42 AM
hey,they could just count the vote that we already did.dah
by alan 03/08/08 06:29 AM
What about all of the people that didn't vote because they thought it wouldn't matter? Are they not being disenfranchised just as much as the voters?
by J 03/08/08 04:01 AM
I have an idea. Florida and Michigan's superdelegates hold mini-caucus/town hall meetings in their own districts. They tally the will of the people and only the super delegates sit at the convention. End of story.

[JVS]

28. That sounds like an action of bad, disloyal democrats. Call them on it Howard!

[Gore1FL]

42. That would be struck down be the FL Supreme Court

if it even got there.

[Slagathor]

45. Is everyone in FL retarded?

seriously... if it's not the worms, it's these sorts of idiots.

[JBoris]

47. WTF? Why would you call an entire state "retarded"?

Because of our state legislators?
The law won't be passed, it is just an empty threat. It would be unconstitutional and everyone involved knows it.

[MonkeyFunk]

54. Why is it unconstitutional?

[JBoris]

55. Because it would violate the party's right to decide whom they nominate. n/t

[MonkeyFunk]

56. I'm not sure I understand

How does it stop the parties from nominating someone? The dems can still nominate anyone they want.

States set requirements for parties to be on the ballot. That's why the Green Party is on the ballot in some states, but not others. What's unconstitutional about a state saying a requirement to be on their ballot is that delegates from that state have to be used to help determine the nominee?

[JBoris]

58. The proposed law would omit the candidate, not the party.

A state cannot legislate conditions on whom a party nominates, it would violate the party's First Amendment rights.
They can however, leave out the entire party, but they wouldn't.

[MonkeyFunk]

59. I see your point

I'm just not sure it's true. If the Senate candidates were duly nominated, they'd be allowed. I'm not saying you're wrong - I'm saying I'm unaware of any similar situation that's been adjudicated.

[Zachstar]

52. How is this: FL .gov screw you for the damage you have done to democracy you pigs!

You can have it as a red state. I will no longer accept being bullied around by this piss ass excuse for a democracy that makes itself known as a .gov of a state.

I no longer respect them and I no longer think their process is good for anything but their shellfish greed for attention.

You can fly the most advanced space hardware in the world but you cant get elections right without threats.

We here is the thing! I do NOT bow down to threats and I know dean will not either. You are NOT going to pull another 2000 on us again!

NO FUCKING REVOTE!!!
NO FUCKING SEATING!!!
NO FUCKING MONEY!!!

[BzaDem]

57. I'm quite happy that you aren't making the decision. :)

[Maribelle]

62. Why did the DNC strip 100% of the delegates when the RNC did 50%?

The DNC did not have to strip 100% when the 2008 rules allowed for 50%.

Punishing one million seven hundred thousand + Democrats for the actions of a handful of egomaniacs does not bode well for our democracy.

[Maribelle]

61. These are the Republicans running the State of Florida that ...

made every effort possible to tell all Floridians, Republicans, Democrats, and the millions of registered voters in Florida of other party affiliations, or with no party affiliation, that their votes on January 29th were extremely important and would count. And their votes did count and are recorded in the election history of Florida.

These are the Republicans running the State of Florida that do not think very highly of Kerry and Obama and others who ranted primary eve that votes would not count in an overt attempt to thwart the vote on January 29th. But the votes did count.

These are the Republicans that know full well they intended on changing the primary date long before the last legislative session started, and successfully created an election reform bill so vital to all Floridian voters that no Democrat could vote against it. And they completed that process.

These are the Republicans belonging to the party that kept their 50% rule which existed before the bill was passed, and know full well the DNC could have done EXACTLY the same and simply kept the penalties of the 50% rule, which existed in the 2008 rule book of the DNC, before the bill was passed.

[UALRBSofL]

65. I don't think people understand the breakdown of the florida legislation

If you lived here you would have a better understanding. The republican party pretty much controls the politics of florida because they have a 2 to 1 edge in the legislature. The proposed bill was in respect to using paper ballots and not to use Diebold but the republicans tied the paper ballot to the change of primary date. Either you vote with us or you lose the paper ballots. Honestly, the republicans have dominated florida politics for years. That said, it's impossible to vote these folks out considering florida is the retirement capital of the country and these folks are republicans.

[stahbrett]

63. The stupidity of the Florida lawmakers continues

They really are dumb. First they screw things up by moving up their election date (don't blame the Republicans - a Democrat introduced the relevant legislation in the Florida Senate, and the vote on the final legislation passed 115-1.

I'm not saying that Florida and Michigan cannot have seats at the convention, but that doesn't mean that they need or should be awarded based on elections that were known ahead of time to be meaningless in terms of delegates to be awarded.

Solutions:

1) Wait until after a nominee is chosen without FL and MI, and then seat the FL and MI delegates.

2) Split all pledged delegates 50/50 - will give FL and MI seats at the convention without having their invalid elections play a decisive role.

3) Instead of a 100% loss in delegates, give them a small percentage - maybe one delegate for each of the state elected leaders who publicly came out against moving up the elections before the elections. So FL would get one or two delegates, and I'm not sure about MI. Then after a nominee is selected, the full complement of delegates would be allowed to have seats.

[printpolitico]

64. Who is the Gov't representing?

Forget whether you are a republican, Dem, McCain supporter, BO, Or HRC supporter. People deserve to vote for their candidate. This would be twice Fl has had problems with it's democratic
processes.

The republicans don't have a right to strong arm the democrats and screw with the political process. This is about people. A compromise, which to me is a re-vote should take place.
So what if Obama comes out on top this time. So be it, but they have the right to vote. I'm a HRC supporter but even if BO came out on top and it pushed him
over the top that's better than disenfranchising people.