Anyone who could possibly think a Michigan primary ballot with missing names is valid

[Phoebe Loosinhouse]

and a "victory" does NOT have enough of a moral compass to be a leader.

Some things you just know are wrong. You can't explain or justify or spin them away. I know, you know, the American people know, the other candidates know, the people of Michigan know-

Michigan cannot possibly count as a Clinton victory and the delagates cannot be seated as Clinton delegates.

Do you really need to know anything else about Hillary Clinton?

[DesertFlower]

1. how the hell did that happen? nt

[MercutioATC]

5. The candidates honored the DNC's decision....except Clinton. (edited)

Let's get one thing straight. Primary elections are not governed by national law nor are they some Constitutionally-granted right. Partisan primaries are conducted by the rules of the respective parties.

That said, the DNC set rules. MI and FL chose to break them. The DNC warned them that if they continued, their delegates would not be seated, and they chose to break the rules regardless.

In MI, the candidates supported the party's ruling by removing their names from the ballot...except Clinton (and she got a lot of flak from Biden for breaking ranks on this). One can individually surmise her motivation for refusing to follow suit and support the party. Regardless, most candidates endorsed playing fair and by the rules by removing their names from the MI ballot.

Clinton chose not to.


On edit, Clinton was not the only candidate who chose to do this. She is, however, the only viable candidate still in the Democratic race who chose to do it.

The point of my post remains unchanged.

[Phoebe Loosinhouse]

10. MercutioATC, please read my post # 6 with my apologies

I usually try very hard to be accurate and source the things that I post and I was wrong when I said she was the only Dem name on the ballot.

To anyone else reading this thread, please don't blame MercutioATC for accepting my original posit.

[nonconformist]

11. Kucinich, Gravel and Dodd were also on the ballot.

I also notice that nobody talks about how Obama had a GOTV push saying SPECIFICALLY that Uncommitted = Obama.

[Alexander]

22. All three are minor candidates with about 1% support, if that.

[DesertFlower]

14. thank you so much for that info. nt

[DesertFlower]

29. the sad thing is that the people

of michigan and florida don't have a vote. it was wasted. should they be punished because the party leaders broke the rules?

[Growler]

33. Excellent post

[bellasgrams]

15. It happened because BO and Edwards removed their names.

They didn't have to. They were not told to. They were told not to campaign, and no one did. Kuch. Gravel and Hillary left their names but adhered to the agreement not to campaign. BO DID NOT HAVE TO REMOVE HIS NAME. Chalk it up to naivety. Ask him why he would remove his name in MI and not in FL.

[ProgressiveEconomist]

28. If what I heard is correct, the FL SOS wd not allow the honest candidates to remove

their names from the dishonest ballot. They tried, but the Republican Secretary of State evidently wanted a disunifying sham election for Democrats.

IMO, many Repubilican politicians are SPECIALISTS in election shenanigans and outright election fraud. That this happened AGAIN in Florida under another Republican governor IMO is no accident.

[tekisui]

2. She like cluster bombs, land mines, Illegal wars

and thinks the war in Afghanistan is "winnable".

[Liberal Veteran]

4. And she considers what happened while she was first "lady" among her accomplishments...therefore,

...she is responsible for so-called "welfare reform", NAFTA, DOMA, DADT, and the tech bubble.

[Yael]

21. If we are to believe that she actually accomplished anything other than

corkscrew airplane rides with Sinbad and Sheryl Crow, then they need to release the damn records of her 8 years in the WH so that we know what "experience" we are supposed to be making decisions about.

[Liberal Veteran]

3. Let's be honest. If Clinton were to get the nomination by seating those delegates...

Her nomination would be as invalid as Bush's "win" in 2000.

And President McCain would be very pleased.

[Phoebe Loosinhouse]

6. Explanation - my initial post was inaccurate when I said she was the only DEM name

She was not. Biden, Barack, Edwards, and Richardson decided to pull their names in compliance with the Democratic party's decision about Michigan. Kucinich attempted to withdraw his name and was unsuccessful.

The whole story is at this link.


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Michigan_Democratic_primary,_2008

I still stand with my original supposition, that for anyone, and Hillary in particular, to claim this as a victory, shows how elastic her ethical guidelines are.

[ProgressiveEconomist]

12. Better yet, here's a link to an official PDF of the ballot itself:

http://www.michigan.gov/documents/sos/PriPresBal_final2_218616_7.pdf .

You could call these the Macchiavellian candidates.

A sure way to make certain there would be a fair election re-do would have been for all candidates to have removed their names from the sham ballot. All but one of the major candidates did this, as you can see by clicking on the link.

[sueragingroz]

7. I agree that Michigan should be re-done... but NOT Florida.

[KAZ]

18. Fine. Then FL doesn't count.

[sueragingroz]

24. nice try.

Florida counts. everyone was on the ballot and turnout was great.

[KAZ]

30. I'm not "trying" for anything. I really don't give a shit.

It's my home state, but you have a bunch a whack-jobs living down there. All you people seem to to do is FUCK EVERYTHING UP.

[ProgressiveEconomist]

20. You think a name-recognition contest is a fair election, with no campaigning allowed?

Could HRC net 38 delegates and 288,000 popular votes over Obama in a free, fair, and democratic election? Would that be fair to Democrats in other states, where candidates had to fight hard for only fractions of those "winning" margins?

On another thread, someone claimed to have looked at the Democratic vote total and the Republican total in all 27 LEGITIMATE primaries and all 13 LEGITIMATE caucuses to date.
They say they found much higher Democratic than Republican turnout in the legitimate contests, but not in either Florida or Michigan. Do you say, "Move along, nothing here to see?"

Remember, a Republican Governor and his Secretary of State set the Florida debacle in motion. I read someplace that the same candidates who withdrew from the phony Michigan "election" tried to withdraw in Florida too, but the FL Secy of State would not allow it.

IMO, a sure way to ensure an honest election re-do is for honest politicians to withdraw from a dishonest election. Do you disagree?

[MichiganVote]

8. Well here's the thing...and I do not say this as a supporter of Clinton...

anyone dumb enough to take their names off a primary ballot for any reason and then blame it on a political party and then claim its another candidates fault and then not say anything at all about it to any voters and then criticize and complain when another candidate scores more delegatges in the voting as is among a high number of voters and then try to act like it doesn't mean anything should those delegates for another candidate be seated....

doesn't understand Michigan....

and will lose the state anyway. Sorry, that's just the way it is..

[samdogmom]

9. I know all I need to know, thank you!

This just puts the nail in the coffin! I truly despise this woman. I want her to go away......SOON!

[DesertFlower]

17. the nail was put in the coffin

for me the other day when she endorsed McCain 5 times. i had always said that i would support her if she was the nominee. i can't do that now. :puke:

[samdogmom]

32. Thank you!

Finally a non-angry response!

YEAH!

[Little Star]

13. Why did he chose to take his name off? Kuch kept his on!

[fadedrose]

26. He tried to have his name removed

and somehow it was too late.

[CyberPieHole]

16. Obama was a fool for removing his name from the MI ballot.

No one forced him to do so. He did it of his own volition.

[FlyingSquirrel]

19. A fool for supporting the DNC's enforcement of their own rules

Shoot, we should just not have any rules about anything in this country, then nobody will have to enforce them and nobody will look like a fool for supporting that enforcement.

[Recursion]

23. Well, Clinton was a fool for leaving hers on

Because it makes her look really, really, really, really bad.

[CyberPieHole]

34. "Really"?

Like, "really", "really"?:silly:

[bullwinkle428]

25. I'm leaning Clinton, and think the only fair option is a re-do in both states -

anything else, and we've essentially disenfranchised the Democratic voters in two states hugely important to us, and that could totally come back to bite us in the ass in November!

[Medusa]

27. All this talk about disenfranchizing voters

Hillary Clinton is the one who has done it and wants the MI vote to still count.

[seabeyond]

31. shit... i dont even get why they cant see not campaigning in florida, hillary name recognition

and fellow americans think election is bogus and may not have voted is wrong.

and they dont. they think it is fair to call florida too, and on the scales of justice, not balanced

[jsmirman]

35. I just couldn't agree more. It's what has pushed me over the edge.

Once she did this, I knew in good conscience that I could not campaign for her in November if she somehow won.

I cannot campaign for a candidate I don't believe in, and I just don't believe in her basic decency.

This is banana republic stuff here, that's how bad it is. It is such a gross perversion of the democratic process, and anyone who would push for it has shown themselves to value their personal interests over the good of the party, the country, and the belief in a functioning democracy.

I think a lot of New Yorkers are going to be pretty hostile to the Clintons from here on in. We don't cotton to this kind of insult to our intelligence and to fair play. I think they really like it here and they have no idea just how hard we're going to be on them when it's time for their return.

[Phoebe Loosinhouse]

36. I know. If something defies logic

and you can't possibly explain or support it except that it brings about one outcome, then you must be supporting the outcome.

I hate that she couches it like she cares about "disenfranchising voters" when to support seating these delegates that she supposedly "won" is what TRULY disenfranchises more voters and other candidates.

[jsmirman]

37. I don't regret voting for her as my senator

which I did because I wanted another voice and another vote in the Senate who supported certain things that I support- but she is not fit to be President, no less commander in chief.

[Phoebe Loosinhouse]

38. I think she was the best choice

and I supported her run for NY Senator. If I were a New Yorker, I would have voted for her

I supported her as First Lady. I voted for Bill twice.

But, this race is revealing - either she has changed, I have changed, or perhaps neither one of us is who we thought we were.

I just know that at this juncture in time, I have no overlap with Hillary Clinton.

[jsmirman]

40. I voted for Bill twice (not surprising), but the people around him have always been problematic

they just had Terry McAuliffe on tv- let me tell you about that guy. That guy was everything that led to this- I donated money a number of times to the DNC- and after a few times, I noticed that NOT ONCE did I ever receive a letter that simply said "thank you." It was always a hurried thank you that led to the real purpose of the letter- asking for more money. That was McAuliffe and his chairmanship to a T.

There was a simple lack of being a real human being who knows how to say something real like "thank you."

Hillary has always unfortunately trended towards that side of things. I always thought the incident in the diner in upstate New York was very telling. The fact that while she got a free meal from the diner owner she didn't think to tip the person who served her- there's just a lack of humanity there. And this thing that is lacking can translate into the truly scruple free power grab that she is making right now. We are witnessing her in all her ugliness and it is a repulsive thing to see.

[zonkers]

39. ...is smoking the good stuff.