The more Hillary's trashed here, the more she has my respect.

[complain jane]

I know there are reasons to like and dislike both Clinton and Obama.

I like Obama, I like Clinton. I didn't vote in the primary in my state because I couldn't decide. I liked both and thought either would be fine.

I'll vote for whoever gets the nomination.

I know there are a vast number of Obama supporters who do not fit into the description of what I'm describing below. Most Obama supporters don't fit into this category, I know, because Obama's a great, likeable, refreshing candidate that naturally draws people to him.

However.

As I've posted plenty of times, I think Clinton's being attacked for acting like a presidential candidate. For acting like a politician. For trying to make herself look better than her opponent. All these things are expected of any other presidential candidate, why is she demonized for doing the same?

Half if not more of what's posted here railing against her seems like feigned outrage over parsed words and exaggerations. And that also reminds me not only of the right, but of politics in general, so why is it ok for people here to engage in mudslinging but then attack Hillary for doing it? It's as if people expect her to stick to some imagined script of kissing Obama's ass even though they are fighting for the presidential nomination. And I really hope this weird philosophy of attacking Hillary for not bowing down to Obama (as I saw suggested, in so many words, in another thread, detailing what kind accolades someone thought Clinton "should" say about Obama) isn't because she's a woman.

I didn't like the Dubyah cult of the GOP back when George Bush Jr. was being shoved down our throats and we were told that if we didn't support him we were unpatriotic and should leave the country. I have yet to hear any Obama supporter actually say such a thing, but the tone of this board sometimes feels the same lately, with all the ridiculous hostility towards HRC and her supporters.

Years ago people told me I was going to love a certain movie when it came out, it was the greatest movie and I had to see it, they said. By the time I saw it I was so sick of hearing the hype that I thought it was a mediocre experience in comparison to the life-altering event they seemed to think viewing the movie was. Years later I saw it again and realized it was great... when it wasn't surrounded by obnoxious hype.

Obama's great. He doesn't need hostile zealots ruining it for him. Worse yet, he doesn't need a loud base of naive zealots, emphasizing his own inexperience.

So, yeah. Hillary's no angel. Neither is Barack or anybody else in the political arena, so I have a newfound respect for Hillary for forging ahead despite the GOP-esque attacks on her here. Good for her. As a politician, she's nothing new. But for those who want to focus on her gender and freak out because she's just as good at the game as the boys are, I say more power to her. She's got balls and apparently it's freaking people out.

What's the quote... "Well behaved women rarely make history." I'm not sure who said it but it wasn't me. Laurel Thatcher Ulrich?

Yeah flame away.

(edited to remove a grammatical error)

[NJSecularist]

1. The more Obama is trashed here, do you have more of his respect?

[complain jane]

2. Sorry but the Obama-trashing posts must be getting lost

in the tidal wave of Hillary-hate.

[NJSecularist]

9. You're just conviently ignoring it then

There has been plenty of Obama hate to go around here.

Just say it. We all know what you are hinting at. The more Hillary gets attacked, the more you like her because you feel like she is getting unfairly picked on by men that are sexist. Just admit it.

[cbayer]

35. That's not what the OP says at all. Not even close.

And "we" don't all know that.

[complain jane]

55. Oh.

Whatever you say. It couldn't possibly be all the issues I described in my OP. It must be what you said instead.

</sarcasm>

[Blue_In_AK]

3. No flames from me...

I find myself feeling the same way.

[tabatha]

4. You should have listened to Mike Malloy tonight -

he is absolutely sickened by Hillary's dirty play toward Obama.
If you can download the podcast, you should listen.

Obama has not smeared Hillary this campaign.
That speaks volumes.

[LadyVT]

8. Obama has "smeared" Clinton nearly every day....

you're just not looking for that, so you don't see it.

[WVRevy]

43. If you have to "look for it"...

...then it isn't a smear, it's your oversensitivity to criticism.

With the attacks on Obama STRAIGHT from Hillary's mouth, you don't have to look.

And as to the OP...Hillary isn't "trying to make herself look better" at all. She's trying to make Obama look worse. There is a BIG difference in those two strategies.

[complain jane]

81. What do you consider "an attack" on Obama?

And she's trying to make herself look better by pointing out facts that diffrentiate her and Obama.

Like the fact that Obama has less experience. That's an attack?

She said she believes Obama's not a muslim because he says so and that there isn't any evidence to the contrary that she knows of.

That's an attack?

If I hear her open up her mouth and say "that guy's an asshole and I hate his shoes" well then, THAT'S an attack.

Let me know when THAT happens.

[The_Casual_Observer]

15. Malloy has been trashing Hillary for years. He didn't need

any new excuses. It's just fresh false outrage.

[complain jane]

74. I don't need radio personalities to tell me what to think.

But thanks anyway.

[Andromeda]

78. Mike Malloy is a tool.

He's "unstable"---that's why they put him on so late.

[MalloyProducer]

83. Malloy "unstable?"

Hey, that's funny! "Unstable." Okay. Frankly, anyone who has maintained "stability" during the last ten years or so is more than likely drugged.

But, the reason Malloy is on so late (unless, of course you live on the West Coast, like in, um, Los Angeles) is because he has a three-year-old daughter and he loves spending days with her and, so, voila! he asked Nova M to give him evenings.

See how that works?

"Unstable."

Oh, yeah.

[stop the bleeding]

5. if that is the rule of measurement then both of them should have A LOT of respect

:beer:

[JVS]

6. The more you respect her, the less I can respect you.

Welcome to ignore

[complain jane]

11. Thanks for proving my point.

But I won't lose sleep over the ignore or the loss of your respect.

[maddiejoan]

22. Anyone

who quotes Sapphocrat, Has a Boy George siggy and supports Hillary Clinton has my respect :)

Sleep well and dream of a Hillary Clinton Presidency!

[complain jane]

47. Thanks

:hug:

[nonconformist]

7. Well said. K &R. nt

[Maddy McCall]

10. The more Hillary's trashed here, the more worried are Obama's supporters.

If they weren't worried, they wouldn't have the need to trash her. But they are scared to death about tomorrow night, so all they know to do is trash her.

[AX10]

12. True.

All it is these days is about how "bad" HRC is.

[RememberWellstone]

21. You think?

I think you are correct! Sounds like desperation from the kids.

[Forkboy]

28. I don't know if that logic is correct.

Kucinich got trashed here a lot too, and I doubt any campaign was especially worried about him. And would that mean the Hillary camp is worried on the days when her supporters are bending over backwards to trash Obama? The logic doesn't hold.

[mmonk]

13. Poor Hillary the victim as she goes dirty eh?

I feel like I'm losing my mind around here sometimes.

[McCamy Taylor]

14. The more Hillary is trashed and Obama uses it to his advantage the more I distrust him.

[Andromeda]

79. That's a good point.

Obama relishes all the Hillary-hate----he helped it along!

[sandnsea]

16. Oh brother, the "they're all corrupt" argument

:eyes:

You've got nothing on Obama, have a boat load on the Clintons, but for unfathomable reasons you just can't bring yourself to admit he's better than she is.]

Whatever.

[complain jane]

29. Naive.

[sandnsea]

39. Guilty is as guilty does

That's all I can figure. Every single day there's some kind of trash that comes out of the Clinton campaign. She's got corrupt fundraisers lined up for years, people convicted and doing time. It just goes on and on. How you can even begin to think they're exactly the same is unfathomable.

[complain jane]

61. So then did Obama lie about the NAFTA meeting, or just have no recollection?

[sandnsea]

62. Don't pretend you have no preference

When everything you've said in the OP and this thread prove you do. Canada has debunked the NAFTA meeting and anybody who continues with it is intentionally spreading a lie.

[complain jane]

65. Seriously?

You really can't comprehend what I wrote as anything other than partisan?

Jesus it's worse than I thought.

[complain jane]

63. And what was the progressive Obama's explanation for the anti-gay McClurkin?

I'm gay, and even I looked past that. As politics as usual. Sorry but if I can look past that bullshit and still support Obama as "progressive" then I don't want to hear anybody whining about any politician's "ethics".

Edited to clarify: as I said in my original OP, I actually do like both candidates. But if you want to complain about one, let's talk about both, shall we?

[sandnsea]

66. Yep, last resort, McClurkin McClurkin McClurkin

Ignore.

[complain jane]

68. Ignore as a last resort? Why not debate?

Nobody's stopping you.

[complain jane]

73. But I'm still waiting for your explanation... and all you can offer is an angry "Ignore"?

I wish you could actually offer something of substance.

[complain jane]

76. WAAAAH! SHE SAID "McCLURKIN"!! I have nothing but IGNORE!!

[Straight Shooter]

37. He isn't better. He only pretends to be. n/t

[sandnsea]

41. You'd think after 20 years you'd have proof

Like there is with the Clintons.

Why isn't there any?

:shrug:

[MadBadger]

17. Id be willing to bet that the percentage of Hillary supporters who are zealots equal that of Obama

[splat]

18. Stick your neck up here lately, lotsa people will shoot it off

4 more years of it would be insufferable.

[blocker]

19. Wow, so your voting on emotions

pathetic actually!

[complain jane]

27. What's pathetic is that you missed where I said I didn't vote in the primary. Read the op.

[Cha]

20. I know you don't like to read the

facts about the warmongering, dirty politicin' liar, hilary clinton..so you just write your whine post and support the mccain endorser for prez and I'll put you on Ignore and life will go on.

[Forkboy]

23. No flame, but I do think basing a vote on the actions of anonymous people online...

...is very, very silly. Say, for instance, that people come here and pose as a supporter of one or the other, but act in such an obnoxious way as to engender the very reaction you're having. It would be easy to do, and I suspect it is being done on both sides.

And even if it really IS true supporters, it's still an ultimately shallow way to base your decision on when each candidate has reams of positions, policies, and their actual words to go by.

So, if you're just gaining respect for her that's fine (though I could say you should be gaining respect for Obama at the same time, as both camps are full of smegheads trashing the other and acting like the GOP). But if you end up basing your vote on the actions of said people...well, that's a pretty sad thing.

[complain jane]

26. I said already that my primary's over and I didn't vote because I liked both. n/t

[Forkboy]

31. I was speaking of the General Election.

As well as voting in general.

[complain jane]

51. And again,

I said I would vote for whoever got the nomination.

That meant DEMOCRAT

An otter in the WH would be better than a Republican. And I like animals.

I think Lewis Black said that (or something similar)

[John Q. Citizen]

53. Dead Heads for Obama! Did you check out the show stream? It's available

on line. Somebody posted the url to listen just yesterday. A search in GD P should find it easily.

[quinnox]

24. When I see the caliber of those trashing Hillary

their level of intelligence and school yard like maturity in saying childish insults, its an honor for Hillary to have them dislike her.

The Hillary haters have a lot in common with the right wing lunatics who also hate her.

[complain jane]

77. AMEN

[DianeG5385]

25. Hillary is tough and can take incoming...

I don't know if Obama can. She has shown her resilience and determination these last few weeks when most would have folded the tent. She believes she is the best for this country and I happen to agree with her.

It's laughable to expect her just to stand aside for the coronation of Obama. This IS POLITICS. It's not a game for amateurs. I WANT her to play this to the end. I think we'll have a very different view of Hillary in the coming weeks. I believe the GOP does NOT want to run against her and they are playing us. Obama has shown a lack of nerve when questioned. Not a good sign.

[TwilightGardener]

30. You know who REALLY has my respect now? John McCain, and his lifetime of experience.

50 years, to Hillary's "35". I think that's pretty impressive--Hillary is right. I love Obama, but if he's not the nominee, I'll have to think about someone who has so many years of dedicated service to his country.

[complain jane]

67. Ok. Good luck.

[SKKY]

32. Whining about who gets the first question most is "Presidential"????

I respect her, and will vote for her in the GE, but she's been anything but Presidential.

[stillcool]

33. I have no respect....

December 10, 2007
Third Clinton Volunteer Knew Of Smear E-Mail

A third volunteer for Hillary Clinton's campaign was aware of a propaganda e-mail alleging that Barack Obama is a Muslim who plans on "destroying the U.S. from the inside out."

"Let us all remain alert concerning Obama's expected presidential Candidacy," the email reads. "Please forward to everyone you know. The Muslims have said they Plan on destroying the U.S. from the inside out, what better way to start than at The highest level."

Two Clinton volunteers, Linda Olson and Judy Rose, have already been asked to resign from the campaign for their roles in forwarding the e-mail. The AP reported yesterday that Olson, a volunteer coordinator in Iowa County, sent a version of the e-mail to 11 people, including Ben Young, a regional field director for Chris Dodd's campaign. Young passed it on to the AP.
http://hotlineblog.nationaljournal.com/archives/2007/12/third_clinton_v.html

http://graphics.nytimes.com/packages/pdf/politics/20080112_nevada_lawsuit.pdf
http://thecaucus.blogs.nytimes.com/2008/01/17/a-feisty-bill-clinton-defends-nevada-lawsuit/
CLINTON ALLIES SUPPRESS THE VOTE IN NEVADA...
On Meet the Press on Sunday, Hillary Clinton said her campaign had nothing to do with a lawsuit--written about by Nation Editor Katrina vanden Heuvel--that threatens to prevent thousands of workers from voting in the Nevada caucus on Saturday.
Back in March, the Nevada Democratic Party agreed to set up caucus locations on the Vegas strip for low-income shift workers, many of them members of the state's influential Culinary Union, who commute long distances to work and wouldn't be able to get home in time to caucus. It was an uncontroversial idea until the Culinary Union endorsed Barack Obama and the Nevada State Education Association, whose top officials support Clinton, sued to shut down the caucus sites.
The Clinton camp played dumb until yesterday, when President Clinton came out in favor of the lawsuit.
Clinton's comments drew a heated response from D. Taylor, the head of Nevada's Culinary Union, on MSNBC's Hardball. "He is in support of disenfranchising thousands upon thousands of workers, not even just our members," Taylor said of Clinton. "The teachers union is just being used here. We understand that This is the Clinton campaign. They tried to disenfranchise students in Iowa. Now they're trying to disenfranchise people here in Nevada, who are union members and people of color and women."
Rank-and-file members of Nevada's teachers union also come out against the lawsuit filed by their leadership. "We never thought our union and Senator Clinton would put politics ahead of what's right for our students, but that's exactly what they're doing," the letter stated. "As teachers, and proud Democrats, we hope they will drop this undemocratic lawsuit and help all Nevadans caucus, no matter which candidate they support."
The lawsuit's opponents make a persuasive point. Creating obstacles to voting is what the GOP does to Democrats, not what Democrats should be doing to other Democrats.

Clinton adviser steps down after drug use comments
Earlier Thursday, Clinton personally apologized to rival Obama for Shaheen's remarks.
Obama accepted her apology, according to David Axelrod, the top political strategist for the Obama campaign.
http://www.cnn.com/2007/POLITICS/12/13/clinton.obama/index.html

January 6, 2008, 5:18 pm
Edwards: No Conscience in Clinton Campaign
http://thecaucus.blogs.nytimes.com/2008/01/06/edwards-no-conscience-in-clinton-campaign/
By Julie Bosman
KEENE, N.H. – John Edwards angrily took on Senator Hillary Rodham Clinton at two news conferences in a row on Sunday, saying that her campaign “doesn’t seem to have a conscience.”

COMPTON, Calif. (AP) — Hillary Rodham Clinton and her campaign tried to mend ties to black voters Thursday when a key supporter apologized to her chief rival, Barack Obama, for comments that hinted at Obama's drug use as a teenager. The candidate herself, meanwhile, praised the Rev. Martin Luther King and promised to assist with the rebirth of this troubled, largely black city.

Bob Johnson, the founder of Black Entertainment Television, apologized for comments he made at a Clinton campaign rally in South Carolina on Sunday that hinted at Obama's use of drugs as a teenager.
http://www.usatoday.com/news/politics/election2008/2008-01-17-johnson-apology_N.htm?csp=34

Hillary: Sorry for Any Offense Campaign (Bill) Has Caused
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FB65wJ6Rcfs

Bill Clinton Asks for a Second Chance
By Liz Halloran
Posted February 11, 2008

The morning after his wife, Hillary, was routed in three state contests by Sen. Barack Obama in their dead-heat battle for the Democratic nomination, former President Bill Clinton made his case for her before a packed Sunday service at one of the largest black churches in Washington, D.C.
But first he offered an apology of sorts for racially tinged comments he made about Obama and his candidacy that have triggered a backlash in the black community and among many other Democrats.

Clinton invoked his "worship of a God of second chances" in pronouncing himself glad to be at the Temple of Praise, which claims nearly 15,000 members. His invocation of second chances echoed comments he made early last week at black churches in California, where he campaigned for his wife before that state's Super Tuesday primary, which she won.
http://www.usnews.com/articles/news/campaign-2008/2008/02/11/bill-clinton-asks-for-a-second-chance.html

Bill Clinton To Apologize At LA Black Churches
Once again, Bill Clinton is ready to repent.
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2008/02/02/bill-clinton-to-apologize_n_84573.html
On Sunday the former president is scheduled to visit black churches in South Central Los Angeles, where he's expected to offer a mea culpa to those who "dearly loved him" when he was their president, Rep. Diane Watson (D-Calif.) says.

Watson, a member of the Congressional Black Caucus who has endorsed Sen. Hillary Rodham Clinton (D-N.Y.), tells us she'll usher the former president to more than half a dozen churches in her district where she says he needs to "renew his relationship" with congregants who were turned off by his racially tinged comments in the days leading up to and following the South Carolina primary. (Such as when Clinton compared Sen. Barack Obama's landslide victory to Jesse Jackson's wins in 1984 and 1988.)

Clinton Surrogate Compares Obama Ad to Nazi March
http://news.yahoo.com/s/thenation/20080201/cm_thenation/45278988_1
Fri Feb 1, 2:23 PM ET

The Nation -- On a media conference call organized by the Hillary Clinton campaign today, Clinton surrogate Len Nichols compared an Obama health care ad to Nazis.
----------

Accusing political opponents of Nazism is an outrageous smear. Raising the specter of a Nazi march in response to a health care mailer that evokes the insurance industry is so absurd, it would be hard to take the attack seriously, were it not launched from a high profile national campaign conference call in this crucial stretch of the presidential race. And political observers know, of course, that the Clinton Campaign regularly arranges opportunities for surrogates to launch these kind of smears, which are later followed up with apologies. (See: Bob Johnson, Bill Shaheen, Bob Kerrey, and Francine Torge, to name the most recent offenders.) For his part, Nichols did not immediately return a call requesting further comment.
-------------------------
Len Nichols, Director of New America's Health Policy Program, stated, "For nearly 17 years I have worked tirelessly to reform our nation's struggling health system. Today my passion overwhelmed me. I chose an analogy that was wholly inappropriate. I am deeply sorry for any offense that my unfortunate comments may have caused. I made unfortunate comments that do not accurately reflect my bipartisan conviction, political philosophy, or most importantly, my opinions about Senator Obama and his historic campaign for the United States presidency."

and the saddest thing I've seen...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dk1k0nUWEQg

[complain jane]

44. Every allegation in your post is at Clinton's "Allies", at Bill, or someone else besides Hillary

[stillcool]

48. Oh..so she is not responsible...

for her "Campaign". She is not responsible for anything, is she? Only those years as the First Lady, where she can't claim responsibility for anything. Irony.

[cbayer]

34. Titanic? Was that the movie?

Excellent post and you really expressed so much of what I am experiencing.

Thanks for saying it so much better than I could have.

[complain jane]

45. LOL

Thanks, glad I'm not alone! It was Forrest Gump.

[cbayer]

50. You are getting a lot of replies to your title and few to your content.

But that happens all the time around here.

[complain jane]

60. And it's a shame.

I've responded to a couple already that were angry about my "voting on emotion" even though I said a, I never voted in the primary and b, I would support the Dem nominee whoever it was, in the GE.

[hfojvt]

36. you must have a ton of respect for Bush, Cheney, Coulter, Limbaugh, O'Reilly

and Tweety, etc., etc., because they used to get trashed around here regularly.

[complain jane]

46. Well that makes a lot of sense.

[rodeodance]

38. Thank you

[Warren Stupidity]

40. So you agree that McCain would be a better choice than Obama?

[KoKo]

42. I gotta go with what you say. The hatred against Hillary here has made me

want to defend her, also. And, neither Obama nor Hillary are my candidates. I just watch it all not being able to vote until May (if that's even a possibility with the Harpies calling for her to drop out).

The stuff that's gone on here...makes it hard to look at Obama without seeing the angry harpies who are ready to swoop down and can't discuss any information but just do "death threats" against Hillary and attack the messenger of any information with diatribes and filthy language.

If their candidate is a "Uniter for Hope and Change"...then the advertising campaign is a failure, imho.

[complain jane]

52. Great point.

[hfojvt]

58. nothing wrong with defending her

even though I think she'd be a horrible nominee, I have not supported all attacks against her.

[judaspriestess]

49. .............

:thumbsup:

[JimGinPA]

54. Well, You'll Have 'Till November To Get Over It

Because Hillary will be finished tomorrow. That will narrow your choice to McCain or Obama.

:shrug:

[complain jane]

57. And another

post proving my point.

[Zookeeper]

64. Yes, they can't resist. n/t

[Auntie Bush]

59. I'm going to bookmark ths post. I hope you get to eat those words.

"Hillary will be finished tomorrow." We'll see tomorrow.

[Fox Mulder]

56. The more Obama is smeared, the more he has my respect.

And he's smeared every damn day by Hillary.

[complain jane]

71. Yeah. He sure is. Not.

Poor, poor Barack .

:eyes:

[ProSense]

85. So your OP is biased?

Obama is smeared using links to RW sites, bogus gay-sex claims, slandering Muslims, using Farrakhan as a wedge, etc.?

Poor, poor Hillary!

:eyes:

[Thepricebreaker]

69. Got 3 in this house that don't...

[complain jane]

70. don't what?

[jlake]

72. K&R ~ Totally agree!

[JoFerret]

75. Running for president is tough stuff

It's not a nice business.
And that is true for all candidates.
Trashing Hillary is not the way to go.

[Raffi Ella]

80. AMEN!

Thanks for the excellent post!

:kick:

[Alamom]

82. Make that two. (Wow, I love your sig) k&r

[rodeodance]

86. your's seem a bit "off"--

[yardwork]

84. Yeah, the abuse piled on Hillary kept me from supporting Obama for months.

Everytime I'd start to support Obama again, one of his so-called supporters here would make me mad and I'd go back to supporting Hillary.

It wasn't until I took a break from GD-P (about six hours) and talked with some real world people who support Obama that I went ahead and decided I'll probably vote for him, if the primary is still going on when it comes to my state.

I've always said I'll vote for whomever is the Democratic nominee come November. I don't have a dog in this fight. I don't know why I hang around here. Wait. I do. It's hilarious!

[babsbunny]

87. Amen to that! I have never seen such hatred! And for a Democrat!

:puke:

[Hoof Hearted]

88. "Well behaved women rarely make history." Amen!

[ronnykmarshall]

89. Well said

and thanks!

[Laelth]

90. You give your adversaries too much power and credit, methinks.

Perhaps this is just a rationalization that supports an unwise and unwarranted choice that has already been made, but now is being questioned.

:shrug:

-Laelth

[Raffi Ella]

91. Hillary 08

:kick: