If Hillary Clinton loses the nomination, it won't be because she is a woman,

[Emit]

IMHO.

I get the impression that some DUers in GD: P feel that if Clinton loses, it will be because she is a woman. In my personal experience in talking with voters, men and women alike, there are a plethora of reasons that voters are not wanting to vote for Clinton, and none of them stated it was because she is a woman.

She's an historical figure, and will have made history with her presidential run, paving the road for female presidential contenders in our future. We should not make light of that or forget the strides she has made, and continues to make, in this regard.

edited typo

[galadrium]

1. If she loses its because she ran a horrible campaign

Full of hubris and using tactics right out of the GOP playbook.

[Gore1FL]

57. They used tactics?

I think the lack of strategy and tactics is her downfall. They honestly thought this would be a coronation rather than a fight, and brought red carpets, pom pons, and ticker tape instead of a plan to win. On top of that, the campaign used the DLC strategy of winning elections rather than the 50 state strategy thjat worked in the 2006 general elections, and that seem to be working for Obama when they actually decided they had a race on their hands.

[Stephanie]

2. Agreed. There are many reasons, not the least of which is the lousy mgmt of her campaign.

The handlers pulling her in every which direction and her acquiescence to it, the inescapable fact of her dismal Senate record, the campaign's financial mismanagement, the bad messaging (Solutions!), the gaffes by Bill, the ineptitude with which she attempted to ridicule Obama, the imperious "inevitability" strategy that rubbed everyone the wrong way, and the candidate's plain lack of talent on the stump. To name a few reasons.

[gateley]

3. I agree too - she was not served well by her people. nt

[theboss]

4. It has nothing with her being a woman; it has everything with her being Hillary

The main problem Hillary faces is that we know her too well at this point. Every gesture she makes reminds us of a million other parts of her history - and a lot of it is unsettling.

[DesertFlower]

23. i agree. nt

[JimGinPA]

5. She Tried To Run As "Inevitable" - With A 48% Negative

Then she ran the worst, dirtiest campaign possible.

[MagsDem]

15. Maybe someone forgot to tell you... Obama's negatives are 46%

[JimGinPA]

19. Pull That % Out Of Your Ass Did You?

[Yael]

30. She ran as a Republican spouting Republican tactics

which only appeal to Republicans -- which probably make up 90% of the 48%.

[DemGa]

6. People act on these things unconsciously

then rationalize another reason for there behavior and attitudes. What can be done to change these attitudes? Some would argue that thought follows form - that is, the perceptions would change when the situation changes.

But to say there is no bias toward women that could cause this effect -- that this would not be a factor in itself, is I think, incorrect.

Just my thoughts.

[MagsDem]

16. Do you mean you think there is no bias against women?

[DemGa]

20. No, I mean there certainly IS bias toward women...nt

[LordJFT]

55. So explain to me why she was leading by 30% at one point

People may not have known all about her at the time, but they certainly knew she was a woman.

[Emit]

27. Yes, and I did not say that there is no a bias toward women in this case

But, most of my women friends and political acquaintances -- ranging in age from in their mid-30's to mid-60's -- professionals, educated, many whom are strongly politically active and aware, etc.-- have supported either Kucinich, Edwards or Obama. I doubt seriously that they didn't vote for Clinton because of sexism -- most of these women were agonizing over their choices in this race, wanting so much to vote for a woman, but not being able to because the woman in the race was not the right candidate for them.

It's not scientific, that's for sure, but it is telling to me. It is, of course, my opinion based on personal experience, as Maddy McCall pointed out. Regardless, I think that just as we can't say that there is no bias toward women that would cause this effect, we also can't say with certainty that it is because of bias toward women that would cause this effect.

typo

[Yael]

32. I am a woman who reports to a woman who I HIGHLY respect

I would be damn proud to vote for a woman. Hillary is not that woman.

Sometimes, it isn't the message -- its the messenger and it has nothing to do with sexism, but if thats the justification that gets you through the night, then you just run with it.

:thumbsup:

[sniffa]

7. Actually, it will because of

Ctrl + S-exism.

[Maddy McCall]

8. Most people won't freely admit "I won't vote for Hillary because I'm a sexist asshole."

And there are plenty out there who won't vote for her, because she is a powerful woman. They just don't admit it in public.

[billbuckhead]

10. Republican men crossing over to vote against her

[Emit]

12. The Republican men in my family

are all sincere supporters of Obama and switched parties in order to support Obama (and the same holds true for the Republican women in my family, who did the same). To what extent this was done for the sole purpose of voting against Clinton is, of course, hard to determine. But, I'd suspect it was done in no different manner than in years past when voters liked or didn't like a particular candidate, or when they were not happy with their party. There was certainly nothing nefarious in their switching of parties. They remain Democrats to this day and will vote for a Democrat in the GE, regardless of which of the two receive the nomination. For this, I am very pleased.

[Maddy McCall]

13. Of course they are. Everyone in every anecdote on DU supports Obama.

We take your word for it.

[Emit]

17. No need for the 'yeah, right :eyes:' attitude, Maddy McCall

I have been consistently forthright in noting that Obama was never my first choice. It was an agonizing decision overall, and he still falls short of being my ideal candidate. I have no investment in making stories up. I have posted on several occasions my experiences with making these tough decisions in my caucus -- as a DU search will show -- including the actions of my various family members.

But, I suppose, on an anonymous message board, anyone can write anything they desire, so you do have a point. ;)

[sandnsea]

9. Older men are voting for her

And they're the most likely to be "sexist assholes", so no, I don't think she is losing because she's a woman. She's losing because she's running a lousy campaign, mostly, but also because of her air of superiority.

[DesertFlower]

24. yes. she thought

she was going to sail right through the nomination process into the presidency.

:toast:

[bigbrother05]

11. Hillary will be remembered very kindly to be sure

She was not prepared for this, at all

[MagsDem]

14. Oh it will absolutely be because she is a woman

The press makes derogatory sexist remarks about her on a near CONSTANT basis. And unfortunately the lemmings in this country let the media pick their candidates.

[Emit]

21. Hhhmmm

I don't have cable, so I am missing a lot of the election coverage on teevee. But, I do visit DU and other sites frequently, and I know there is a lot of discussion about sexism in this race. Problem is, it also seems a lot of posters can't agree on what constitutes sexism. Similar discussions about racism are as difficult to sort out, IMHO.

[Recursion]

22. You don't think she could have won the nomination already...

...if she had run a better campaign?

I do.

[MagsDem]

26. I think she would have won in a cakewalk if the bias

was a constant and day to day, minute by minute thing in the media.

[Yael]

37. Because (as you have been maintaining), her campaign is flawless

[MagsDem]

42. How bad can it be if she is within 300K votes out of 22 million cast?

She's 80 delegates down, for gawd's sake, and that is without counting Florida.

[Emit]

39. Can you give a specific example, MagsDem?

Maybe a link to an article or video?

Thanks in advance if you can.

[MagsDem]

43. The post debate coverage after Cleveland was a perfect example

Or simply even compare it to any other candidate running. Has John McCain every been described as shrill? My god, there's not enough time in the world to list all the examples. But here's an article that details many of them. I search Hillary Clinton and sexism on google. It was the number one hit. It's not hard to find.

http://www.now.org/issues/media/070315hillary_media.html

[Recursion]

53. What if she actually *is* shrill?

It's why I keep bringing up why the New Coke marketing campaign failed.

[Emit]

56. Thanks, I read the article

"Chris Matthews, host of MSNBC's talk show Hardball, has become notorious for his sexist remarks about Clinton. On Dec. 19, 2006, he charged that she was being coy about her political ambitions, comparing her to 'a stripteaser saying she's flattered by the attention...'"

:wow:

He's an ass, and I do recall he got a rash of shit from viewers, and rightly so, for similar comments he made since this article was written.

On this: "While the media's hounding of Clinton on this issue may be a bit extreme and counterproductive, it's worth noting that this is an attack that deals with a genuinely political issue, one that any male candidate might face (but hasn't so far)."

I do recall Kerry having a hard time with explaining his IWR vote, and Edwards too, this time around.

Thanks for pointing me to this article, MagsDem. Having no cable, and watching very little teevee, I have not seen these before.

[Yael]

35. LOL!

But then again, there are women that have no use for her but would still LOVE to vote for a woman.

I went from Edwards to Obama. Hillary was my 9th choice. Not because of her sex, but because I simply don't like her brand of politics.

[MagsDem]

44. And what "brand" of politics is that?

[Yael]

45. Slash and burn, scorched earth.

But please feel free to accuse me of being a sexist woman if thats what it takes to get you through the night.

[MagsDem]

48. And what has she done that is slash and burn, scorched earth?

[Elidor]

18. If anything, Hillary has shown that a woman CAN win

Her campaign stumbles notwithstanding, it's obvious that women are now viable presidential candidates in America, and Hillary Clinton proved it. Bravo for that.

[MagsDem]

36. Yes, but no thanks to the media bias

[WillyT]

40. Agreed

:thumbsup:

[PassingFair]

25. It will be because she was a war authorizing DLC Leader. n/t

[Emit]

34. Which pretty much sums up why I couldn't vote for her

(If Kucinich or Edwards weren't viable, my plan was to vote for Clinton in my caucus, but, I was not able to do this -- my gut told me "no" -- so, by default, I chose Obama)

[rodeodance]

28. It will be a factor---you can not deny that.

[RBInMaine]

29. She will have lost for these main reasons:

1) Bad themes: "I'm inevitable." "I'm more experienced." No one is EVER inevitable, and people want CHANGE, not just "experience." Plus, too many holes in her "experience" when compared to others.

2) Bad strategy: She played the tired old worn out "beat them in the big states and it's over" strategy whereas Obama played in EVERY state.

3) Bad campaign management: No single overarching message, bad electoral strategy, bad financial mgt.,unprepared for post-Super Tuesday contests.

4) Bad tactics: She and Bill going negative backfired and served to reinforce what people don't like about her: that she can come off very elitist, self-righteous, and bitchy.

5) Bad timing: People want NEWNESS. Hillary represents same old same Washington establishment politics and a return to the Clinton years which even MANY Dems don't want to re-live. The feeling is, "The Clintons have had their time. Now it's time for a new face."

[democrat2thecore]

31. "Just not THIS woman" That's what I hear all the time -nt

[Yael]

38. Would love to vote for a woman, just not that one

Now you have heard it from another woman. :hi:

[OPERATIONMINDCRIME]

33. That Will Be A Small Part Of It, Along With 20 Other Reasons.

There is no one reason why she'll lose, if it turns out that way. There are quite a few reasons as to why. Some on her, some on the media, some on the process, some on inherent sexism.

[Tactical Progressive]

41. It will be because the media Gored her.

Nothing more or less.

[Yael]

46. That, or people simply don't want her in charge of the country.

[MagsDem]

49. Really? Strange then that fewer than 300K votes out of 22 million

separate them, isn't it?

[Blue_Roses]

47. Hillary "gored" herself...

her shrill, screaming, temper-tantrums and "mothering" to a intelligent electorate didn't help. I saw a side of Hillary that I've NEVER seen before. Barbara Boxer would have done a better job.

It's not about voting for a woman. It's about her politics.

[MagsDem]

50. No, not sexism..... as you claim she is shrill, prone to temper tantrums

and "mothering." Nothing like writing a post that pretty much proves the point you claim to be denying.

[Emit]

52. This is exactly what I mean when people start defining what is sexist to them

Was that post sexist? I'm not sure. You obviously thought it was. No one seems to agree on what sexism is. :shrug:

[Sparkly]

51. I might have agreed with you about a year ago.

After reading DU -- nevermind what the media has done -- I'm completely convinced sexism is alive and well, and definitely impacts political contests.

Yes, there are non-sexist reasons for opposing Clinton.
No, nobody's saying that if you don't support her, you're automatically sexist.
Let's just get those strawmen or strawwomen out of the way!

The thing is that she was never given a fair shot, period. It's partly because she's "A Clinton," but largely because she's a woman. And learning that even a "progressive" site like DU is, among too many people anyway, blindly groping in the dark when it comes to even discussing sexism ("Sexism? What sexism?") has been both eye-opening and disheartening.

That's not about anybody's campaign, either. It's a lot more consequential than that.

[Recursion]

54. I guess there's no way of knowing for sure

But my definite impression is that it's entirely because she's a Clinton