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This infighting is stupid. We have two good candidates!!!

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WVRevy Donating Member (225 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Feb-28-08 09:34 AM
Original message
This infighting is stupid. We have two good candidates!!!
I honestly don't get the infighting between LIBERALS here and all over the net. As an Obama supporter, I have said from the beginning that I would be proud to cast my vote in November for EITHER of these candidates, and I know many Clinton supporters who have said the same. Yet we seem to have a large number of Hillary's supporters on this board slamming not the candidate, but me and others like me who happen to have given our support to her opponent. I'm sorry, but I think that is just WRONG.

Look, it is my opinion that Hillary would make an excellent president, probably right along the lines of the type of president her husband was (and I consider that high praise). It just so happens that THIS year, she is running against someone that I think could be a GREAT one. Is that because I've "drank the kool aid?" No, and I'm offended by the implication that I'm incapable of making a rational choice that does not result in voting for Hillary Clinton. The difference seems to be that I can fully admit that someone could make their OWN rational decision and choose Hillary over Barack, even though I disagree.

The attacks on supporters of BOTH sides really need to stop, or we're going to be so divided come November that we're going to hand the country another 4 years of failing policies in the Bush clone the Repugs are running. If you disagree with my candidate, then by all means, point that out, just as I will with yours. But we need to remember that we're all on the same team...we just haven't picked our quarterback yet.
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Dogmudgeon Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Feb-28-08 09:40 AM
Response to Original message
1. The less there is at stake, the more conflict there is
What is REALLY at stake is the Presidency. The candidacy is the side issue. That's why it's so contentious.

I support Hillary, but am not a big Obama foe. I think HRC has more going for her, and I distrust the feel-good aspects of Obama's campaign, but they are quite similar in their outlook and proposals.

A lot of the issues that turn into flame wars demand reasoned conversation. Both the "Obama cult" and the "can't trust Hillary" themes will be used to hammer us in the General Election, no matter who wins. We have only a limited amount of time to get our proverbial ducks in a row. We should start NOW, even before the candidacy is settled.

--p!
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mkultra Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Feb-28-08 09:42 AM
Response to Reply #1
4. well said
im glad someone cant state there feelings without acrimony.
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WVRevy Donating Member (225 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Feb-28-08 09:49 AM
Response to Reply #1
5. Agreed, but giving the meme's a jump start...
...only helps the McCain crowd. By the time the general rolls around, people will have been hearing for a year that you "can't trust Hillary" or that Obama is just a "stuffed shirt". Even though neither is true - or even if we feel that one of them IS - it will turn into "Everyone knows that..." Neither of those things are descriptions we want hung around the necks of our candidate come November.
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KLee Donating Member (277 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Feb-28-08 09:50 AM
Response to Reply #1
7. Exactly! nt
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iconoclastic cat Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Feb-28-08 09:41 AM
Response to Original message
2. Personally, I recommend taking vacations from the intertubes.
Both DU and Daily Kos make periodically make me want to skip voting altogether. To hear the majority of the people on liberal boards and blogs, we have two fatally flawed candidates who will fail in November. When I start to believe them, I log off and do something else.
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WVRevy Donating Member (225 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Feb-28-08 09:52 AM
Response to Reply #2
8. Yeah, but...
...I'm a political junkie, and I need my fix. :smoke: Besides, even the cable news shows are getting bad about this kind of thing. I'm a HUGE Keith Olbermann fan, and he's so far into Obama's pocket he could tell you what socks Barack is wearing. As I said, I'm an Obama supporter, so I still enjoy the show. But I can't help thinking that he's doing damage to the party if by some miracle Hillary pulls it out and becomes the party's nominee.
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KLee Donating Member (277 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Feb-28-08 09:41 AM
Response to Original message
3. RIGHT ON!!
This is so stupid.

We need to be lifting both Hillary and Obama up, not tearing them down. When you tear them down, you tear down the Democratic Party in the end. If it's something that is fact about their policies, record, etc....by all means lets have that debate....However this distortion of facts is getting out of hand on Hillary and Obama....

I am also an Obama supporter, however I have been completely and utterly appalled at the attack on Hillary. She is not our enemy, McCain is the the Party's enemy. I am equally disgusted with the attack on Obama...these attacks on both of them are petty.

If you really and truly want to hurt Hillary and Obama's chances in November, keep spewing it, your playing right into McCain's hands. He would like nothing more than to divide us, so he can slip right in and take it all. He knows that is the only way to do it!

Both our candidates are strong! I am proud of that fact! Let's lift them up, not tear them down!

I will support whomever gets the nomination and proudly do it!

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JVS Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Feb-28-08 09:50 AM
Response to Original message
6. Well that's the problem. We only need one.
:D
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BeyondGeography Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Feb-28-08 09:53 AM
Response to Reply #6
9. Kool-aid drinker
Good one.

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WVRevy Donating Member (225 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Feb-28-08 09:55 AM
Response to Reply #6
10. And we're gonna get one...
...and either he OR she will be the best candidate for the job when compared to McCain. I'm just sayin'...there are plenty of real issues we can discuss without attacking either candidate in the kinds of slanderous ways I've seen on this board. It doesn't really help our personal primary preference, and it hurts the party if our preference isn't the nominee.
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emmadoggy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Feb-28-08 10:01 AM
Response to Original message
11. Then there are those of us
who feel completely disenfranchised by this whole primary season by having BOTH of these two "star" & "history-making" candidates shoved down our throats. Who feel that they are BOTH less than "great" candidates. Who felt that, with the exception of Gravel, ANY of the other Dem candidates would have been better candidates -that these two were the least desirable. Who now will have to hold our noses with great big giant noseclips NO MATTER WHO we vote for in the general election. Who feel we are screwed because none of the current candidates will take up the charge to address the truly GRAVE issues we are facing, will reverse and correct many of the power grabs of the current administration, will pursue investigations and criminal proceedings against the outgoing administration, along with a host of other issues.

The infighting and attacking between these two supporter groups is ridiculous to watch and has a somewhat morbidly amusing quality to it when you look at it from the perspective of someone like me who agrees with the detractors on BOTH sides. :evilfrown:
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WVRevy Donating Member (225 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Feb-28-08 10:09 AM
Response to Reply #11
12. Spoken like a Nader voter in 2000
Sorry, but these two - along with John Edwards - were EASILY the class of the Democratic field. Like it or not, the country will not accept an extreme liberal viewpoint in the white house. Believe me, I can feel for you in that I, too, am probably to the left in my political leanings of any of those three candidates. But I also realize that we live in a democracy, and while I'm free to speak my opinions and try to make changes in our society, I must accept the fact that I am in the minority on those opinions at this point in our country's history.

You are NEVER going to get a political candidate that supports everything you believe in without running for office yourself. The best we can do with the system we have is to put forward candidates that can help move the country in the direction we want to move, if not as quickly as we would like them to. You can rail against the system and scream about how unfair it is, but we must deal in reality, and reality is not ideal.
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Jennicut Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Feb-28-08 10:19 AM
Response to Reply #12
15. I totally agree.
They are not "perfect" candidates but the way some people around here talk about it its like we have terrible candidates who will never beat McCain. My ultimate goal and others in the Dem party should be to beat the Rethugs. Watch Dan Abrams on MSNBC if you want a pundit who is fair. Everynight he goes after Clinton and Obama when they state something factually incorrect and has gone after the MSM in general for saying positive things about Obama and negative things against Hillary because they just don't like Hillary. Look what they did to Al Gore in 2000. I agree with this view and I'm an Obama supporter. Still, its funny when he reads emails sent to him by viewers. Some are mad because he attacked Clinton and some are mad because he is so in Clinton's corner against Obama. Nope. He's a journalist and a good one and a fair one. Lets face it, Obama and Clinton disagree on small points but agree on overall issues. McCain is against reforming healthcare but for big government spending on the military and in Iraq. Lets fight him together. Support the eventual Dem nominee.
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emmadoggy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Feb-28-08 10:42 AM
Response to Reply #12
17. Uh, no.
I wasn't and will never be a Nader voter. As disgusted as I am with the choices, I WILL vote democratic in the general. My point is to simply say that there are some of us out here who really feel no love for either candidate and who find all the infighting a bit bemusing given that we can't feel a passionate connection to either of these candidates.

And I'm not so idealistic as to think that a candidate has to match me 100% on all issues to be a good candidate. I don't think that either Biden or Richardson are radical liberals far to the left of Hillary and Obama, but I think either of them would have been better. Edwards definitely has his finger much more on the pulse of what needs to be done than either Hillary or Obama and I feel represents democratic values much better. Is he perfect? Do I agree with him on everything? Hell no. Of course, my dream candidate, Gore, never got in the race. But, even him I don't agree with on every issue.

Mostly, I just feel angry at the way these two candidates were FOISTED UPON us from the very beginning. If all the other candidates had gotten even HALF the media attention and focus that these two have, this race could have felt much more like a true choice of the people and not the media. But that's not the country we live in anymore. :-(
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WVRevy Donating Member (225 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Feb-28-08 11:01 AM
Response to Reply #17
19. Conventional wisdom says...
...that you run in the primary to the left or right (depending on party), and in the general you run to the middle to pick up independent votes. But this nominating process has been a very strange one, in that both Obama and Hillary seemed to be campaigning for the general election from the start. Hillary, I can understand doing that, because she was widely viewed as a shoo-in for the nomination just a few short months ago. Barack has captured people's imaginations through his rhetoric, but he still seemed to be appealing to independents and centrist Republicans right from the start (and the demographics of his support around the country support that notion).

The point I'm trying to make is, I truly believe that BOTH candidates are more liberal and more aligned with the left then they are portraying themselves in the media. Take Obama for example. He speaks very eloquently about the need to come together as a country, with no red states and no blue states, just United States. But when he gets the job, if you don't think he will push a liberal agenda, you don't know much about him and his history. Right now, he's doing what he needs to do to get the job, just as she is and just as pretty much EVERY political candidate does. But he is a liberal at heart, and his ideals are the ideals of the Democratic party.

BTW...that doesn't mean he's lying when he says that he can bring people together, because I don't think for a minute that he is. There are two approaches to pushing forward your agenda, and he and Hillary each take a different route. She is a "fighter" that will battle and scratch and claw to get done what she wants to get done. He is a persuader that works to convince people of what he believes needs to be done. Both ways can work, and neither is guaranteed to bring success. But they have to get into the office before they can do anything at all, and they won't get that way by running to the left. The conservative smear machine has just gotten way too adept at equating "liberal" with "weak".
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iconoclastic cat Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Feb-28-08 10:10 AM
Response to Reply #11
13. So, why bother? This is not a rhetorical question.
I mean, this morning, I'd just as soon let McCain and Hagee manufacture their little apocalypse and wipe us off the planet.
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emmadoggy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Feb-28-08 10:53 AM
Response to Reply #13
18. That's a good question.
This is the best I can say. As disappointing as I find both Obama and Clinton to be, it is still entirely true that ANY Dem will be better than ANY Repuke. And that's what it boils down to for me. To just stay home and not vote isn't an option for me, because I feel it it essentially like handing a vote to the repubs. As frustrated and disgruntled as I am with the choices, I still feel I have to vote for the one that comes CLOSEST to what we need and who I agree with, and for me, that will always be the Democrat.
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iconoclastic cat Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Feb-28-08 11:03 AM
Response to Reply #18
20. You're right, of course.
It's not even noon, and I feel like I need a glass of wine. It's going to be a long year.
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KLee Donating Member (277 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Feb-28-08 11:09 AM
Response to Reply #18
21. Thank you :)
Your perspective and many others on here, is what we need to remember.

These two, are way better than the alternative on the other side.
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WVRevy Donating Member (225 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Feb-28-08 11:09 AM
Response to Reply #18
22. See, THIS is what I think we should be talking about!
I'm honestly curious WHY you are "disappointed" in the two choices remaining in the race. Both obviously have their flaws, but - in my honest opinion - both are better candidates at this point in their careers than either Al Gore in 2000 or John Kerry in 2004...and it ain't even close. I honestly can look at the top 3 candidates for the Democratic nomination and say that it is the best top 3 - most diverse, best chances of winning - of my 36 year lifetime. The Repugs would be THRILLED if they had the quality of candidates that we do.

We should be talking about this kind of thing, not tearing into each other and each other's candidates. People should be talking about why everyone should vote for THEIR guy/girl...not why nobody should vote for the other guy. Because let's face it, as you said...either one of them are WORLDS ahead of John McCain.
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rox63 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Feb-28-08 10:15 AM
Response to Original message
14. Fortunately, most Dems would be happy with either candidate
Please, don't consider DU or DKos to be any reflection of the rest of the voting populace. We are all political junkies here, and are not reflective of much of the rest of the country.
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WVRevy Donating Member (225 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Feb-28-08 10:33 AM
Response to Reply #14
16. Oh, believe me...I know we're all nuts...lol
People on this site tend to be overly close to the political situation in this country, and the same goes for most other political sites (DKos included). But I also post frequently on "Community" or "Off-Topic" boards for my favorite sports team and even for Disney, and politics is a topic that comes up there quite often. Even on those sites, I've seen the attacks between the Hillary and Barack camps that are usually reserved for a general election where the two candidates disagree on virtually every issue. Meanwhile, the conservatives are laughing their asses off while they watch us do their work for them. Don't think it has an impact? How many times in the last two weeks has McCain echoed something that Hillary's campaign has said about Barack? I can think of 3 off the top of my head.

I just don't want us to do their work for them. I want both of our candidates to exit this primary season strong, with one heading back to the Senate with a mandate to make changes, and the other heading into the general election with a unified, energized, and STRONG party behind them. I want McCain to feel like the only chance he has is to run as far right as he can get, and I want our candidate to be on firm ground when they show him for the political whore he has turned into in the last 4 years! The people on the far right are dumb enough to buy it when he suddenly gets religion and starts spouting the same nonsense they do, and I want our party ready, willing, and able to counteract the attacks that they will surely throw at our candidate. That might be kind of hard to do when they are the SAME attacks being used in the primary process.
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Gothmog Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Feb-29-08 01:17 PM
Response to Original message
23. Good thread
I was an Edwards supporter but would be happy with either candidate on the ticket. I just voted in the Texas primary for Senator Obama for a host of reasons. However, if Senator Clinton is the nominee, I will be happy and proud to support her.
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mtnsnake Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Feb-29-08 01:25 PM
Response to Original message
24. Obama supporters can't take the least little bit of criticism about their candidate
without calling it an "attack". Yet Hillary can get slammed, lied about, slandered, abused, thrown to the rats, called vulgar names...and everyone is all fine with that. The same people who call Hillary things like a fucking witch are the same ones who cry like babies whenever someone happens to criticize Obama in the least little way.

Someday people will realize that the most arrogant of the Obama supporters were never Obama supporters at all, but just imposters who infiltrated this forum to attack anything spelled Clinton. Those particular ones just hide behind Obama to disguise themselves. Until those moles are rooted out, and some of them probably never will be, there is little hope for this forum ever coming together. The influx of Clinton haters seems to double by the week and it's been going on for at least two years.

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