HELLO DU: you wouldn't stand for RACIST threads about Obama, why cheer the SEXIST crap about HRC?

[chimpymustgo]

This has been saddening and enraging. Oh, I'm sorry: will you allow me to be enraged - without asking me if I'm PMS'ing, or hysterical, or showing one of the 3 faces of Eve? Can I just be goddammed PISSED off because I never believed I'd see the day when misogynist tripe would be the order of the day on a "progressive" discussion board - the norm?

I'm pretty sure if DU'ers were calling Obama RACIST names, and making RACIST jokes about him, or analyzing his every move and statement through a prism of RACE - people around here would uniformly say SHUT the FUCK UP.

Yet, it's just fine to join the right-wing chorus and throw the same old shit at Hillary Clinton. This mental stability gambit today was just the last effing straw. Even for Keith O - it's just fine to slam a woman. She committed the cardinal sin of expressing a range of emotions over the course of several days. She was ticked off about her opponent mischaracterizing her. Translation in the MSM - and Democratic Underground: THE BITCH IS HYSTERICAL AND CRAZY!!!! SHE'S MENTALLY UNSTABLE!!!

Well call me a crazy, hysterical bitch, but I'm sick of this goddam shit. I hope, one day some of you will wake up and be very fucking ashamed and embarrassed.

[Oleladylib]

1. Two words...Chauvanist Pigs..no, 3 words add Rotten...

[jgraz]

58. This from the woman who thinks Obama reminds her of the movie "Soul Man"

And posts hints that Obama is "uppity". :crazy:

[pnwmom]

64. Where has she posted such "hints"? n/t

[jgraz]

79. Here y'go

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=132&topic_id=4777209&mesg_id=4777381

Maybe she can tell us which word for "arrogant" she "better not say".

The "Soul Man" thread appears to have been deleted, but not before Skinner stepped in to call her on it. Sadly, quite a few Hillary supporters found it funny.

[pnwmom]

85. I missed that. She clearly crossed the line. n/t

[jgraz]

104. And yes, I've seen people cross that line with Hillary

And I'm usually one of the first people to tell them to shove their sexist bullshit.

But much of the criticism of Hillary is based on her emotional "UI" and it's completely legitimate, IMHO. A president has to have strong emotional instincts and she has not done well in this area.

[pnwmom]

107. The part that worries me about Obama is that he seems so confident

that he can stick his hand out to the Rethugs -- and not get it bitten off.

Time will tell.

[jgraz]

109. You and me both.

But Obama himself offers the solution here: we can't just sit back and watch politics from the sidelines. We did that with Clinton and we got NAFTA, DADT and Welfare Reform.

Obama is NOT the messiah. He's a damn good candidate who could possibly be a great president. But we progressives will have to bust our asses to make sure he's OUR KIND of great president.

[Froward69]

135. I think Obama is far smarter than that

Obama will stick his hand out and allow it to be bitten off... to expose just how racist, bigoted and yes sexist the gop really is.

insofar as the original post about Hillary. It is the difference between her calm demeanor when she thinks she has it sewn up... then the Hillary that is just down right sarcastically mean only to turn her emotions on a dime. to suit the room. Change is one thing, that is, Changing course... but a firm STEADY hand on the tiller is what is needed. NOT jerking the tiller about only to upset and overturn the boat.

That in itself is where the worry of Hillarys demeanor as (would be) president is getting questioned.

[krkaufman]

187. I don't think he's that naive. Nor do I think he has any expectation ...

... of winning-over any of the 25%ers (now 19%ers?). What he's saying is that we need to expand our coalition to a sufficient size to create a working majority, that we need to bring in independents and moderate Republicans -- many of whom used to vote Democratic.

I don't believe he thinks it will be easy or without risks, but that it's something we need to do.

[Voice for Peace]

212. well said nt

[tigereye]

117. but what are "strong emotional instincts"

would you be asking this question about Edwards, or Obama?

I think that's what the OP is asking, in some sense.


Everyone has emotions. Male politicians seem to be allowed to show them now (not like in the past when it was seen as a liability), and oddly, women politicians are not.

:shrug:


She seems like a very capable woman who would probably make as good a President in the "decision-making" sense as Obama. Where does the emotional aspect enter into it, and why should it?

[jgraz]

121. I have asked that question about Edwards

His UI has been problematic in the past, when he's come off as phony or a bit -- dare I say -- shrill.

If you want to see examples of women with strong emotional instincts, look at Anne Richards, Barbara Jordan or Barbara Boxer. They have some of the same grace, humor and strength that I see in Obama. All three present it a bit differently, but they all show an instinctive understanding of how to use their emotion to make a point or persuade an opponent. I don't see that in Hillary.

[tigereye]

124. ah in the sense of persuasion...

fair enough. ... thanks for the explanation ....


it's interesting how much we want to see the projection of strength from candidates, and tend to perceive that as an indicator of how they would operate in the WH or other position. It makes sense in a way, since we are unlikely to really know how they operate up front. Bush's projection of strength has always seemed over the top and false to me - a John Wayne type of caricature of strength.

(I have a relative who worked as an aide to HRC when she first came on board as a Senator, and he was very impressed by her kindness, intelligence and concern for her staff, but not all of us are able to see her up close and personal.) It's all hard to parse in some sense.

[PerpetuallyDazed]

149. I've been looking for this...

"Soul man" thing but can't find it. I've Googled, searched DU... having a bad time looking for it, I guess. Can you give me a link to this? Or anything that proves Hillary Clinton is racist?

[jgraz]

152. It's been deleted. It was a sickening comparison of Obama to a white guy pretending to be black

It had nothing to do with Hillary Clinton and everything to do with the race-baiting DUer who posted it.

[Voice for Peace]

213. if you haven't seen this yet, Dick Gregory apoogizes to the first black president

its so funny

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JAcN5iKArQU

[jgraz]

290. What a great speaker.

[JVS]

298. LOL!

[emilyg]

217. I agree.

Wonder if they treat their mothers, daughters, girlfriends, wives the same way.

[femrap]

230. Usually not...that is why they get

to be 'offended and righteous' at the mention of their sexism. I've worked with these nice husbands and nice daddies...but you should see the way they treat female employees, waitresses, or any other female who gets in their way. They're psycho...just the way The Corporation likes them.' Mean competive killers at work and then home to be treated like a king....they even say 'thank you.'

I've overheard their jokes...what's the difference between a street walker and my wife? Nothing, they're both women.

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

2. I find your post confusing. Are you saying we should be racist against Obama?

Or that Hillary Clinton should stop acting like she's batshit insane?

[chimpymustgo]

6. I'm asking people like you to cut the sexist crap. It's unbecoming to what we claim to stand for.

[Name removed]

9. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[casus belli]

62. If you get sexism out of "batshit-insane", then maybe the problem is you.

I for one, am sick of the charges of sexism even when there is nothing sexist about the language or content. That's not to say that I haven't seen some sexist posts, and they are dispicable. But, using such a loose definition of sexism only diminishes the word. You can't take a simple disagreement or a harsh word that isn't gender specific and derive that the poster must be sexist from that. To do so is, in fact, a form of sexism itself.

[Cha]

158. The problem is with someone who

thinks "batshit insane" is sexist..mccain is also batshit insane.

[Voice for Peace]

215. I think McCain has signs of early dementia. seriously.

He just can't remember what he used to believe
or what he said last week.

[Capn Sunshine]

312. OK , now that is just ageist

:nuke:

[Voice for Peace]

318. hope yore jokin, captain

[stevenleser]

174. I agree 100%

Way over the top with the sexism charges.

[femrap]

237. Are you saying that you

think there is NO sexism on DU?

[jgraz]

175. batshit-insane is not sexist, but it is a bit unfair to Hillary

She's not good at using her emotions effectively, so she comes off as a bit unsteady at times. I think it's more a reflection of her lack of confidence as a candidate (see Kerry, Gore, Dukakis).

[frog92969]

193. May be unfair to bats!

[femrap]

235. You have no idea how stupid you sound.

Ignore

[PurpleChez]

186. Rah! Oh, rah!

Sorry I didn't see your response before I posted my own.

[frog92969]

194. "a form of sexism itself"

Thank You!

I call silly.

[Voice for Peace]

214. Make love, not war

"Take the sexy out of sexism"

[PurpleChez]

185. I see no sexist crap in the referenced post.

"Batshit insane" is a gender-neutral label. I don't agree with it, but it's not sexist.

[lumpy]

37. Stupid

x

[emilyg]

218. Perhaps you should take your own batshit insane comment to heart.

[SayitAintSo]

3. Thank you ....sexisim is o.k. around here...but

Just let someone scream Tawana Brawley and watch the shit storm....

[emilyg]

220. You bet. Real fair, isn't it.

[hulklogan]

4. This is what it feels like almost every day around here for GLBT people

not a nice feeling, is it?

[pnwmom]

65. Unfortunately, both gays and straights can have blind spots about this.

I can't count the number of times my gay father referred to a strong woman as "opinionated" or said "she's such a witch!" or "she's such a bitch!" And yet he was positive that he was this big feminist.

[jackson_dem]

5. This campaign has been eye opening

It is pretty clear sexism is more prevalent today than racism. As glad I am at recognizing that racism is not as bad as I thought it was before the election it is sad to know we have a long way to go regarding sexism. How many states has Hillary won the male vote in anyway?

[rodeodance]

112. I think it has been a wakeup call for those who see it. Many say no-Shelia Jackson Lee got

up in front of a black crowd and argued that sexism trumped racism this primary season. She was run under the bus by many on DU as a partison hack (and worse!). She has been around the block a few times and is good Democrat and for DU to do this is beyond the pale. It took courage for her to say this in front of a black crowd.

[avrdream]

179. Sadly, the subtle sexism does exist, though most won't admit it.

I am close to admitting that America just won't have a female President anytime soon. Much too patriarchal.

[femrap]

239. And Maxine Waters...

and Stephanie Tubbs-Jones....they support HRC as well (or did, last I looked). The hatred of feminists by black males runs deep.

I always remember Shirley Chisholm saying: 'Men are men.'

[trueblue2007]

7. These people ARE NOT READY FOR A WOMAN PRESIDENT

Chavanest pigs.

[arewenotdemo]

18. Give me a woman that acts like she has a set

of ovaries instead of testicles, and I'll consider voting for her.

She doesn't even show the conventionally feminine strength of being able or willing to sit down with world leaders whom the United States doesn't own, to have a meaningful dialogue.

She calculatingly VOTED FOR the death and destruction of WAR (whether her supporters will admit it or not), and was proud of that vote until she very belatedly realized it was a political albatross.

Since then, she has channeled Cheney in particular on Iran.

You want THAT to be the first female American president?

[Hepburn]

63. ......

....ex-fucking-actly!

:applause:

[LostinVA]

84. So because she's too strong of woman for you, she's like a man?

Great job proving the point of the thread.

:eyes:

[electron_blue]

91. Oh please. Women have a right to act as masculine or feminine as they like.

Who are you to set the standard for women?

[Voice for Peace]

222. Hillary's too authoritarian, imo

That's not America's role in the world.

One of the main strengths of womankind is the ability to feel,
love, listen and understand other human beings.

Women innately have the power to nurture human dignity,
end war, and heal illness.

There is nothing sexist in these words.

[femrap]

248. Your words are 100% sexist...it's

like saying: all blacks should dance...or all blacks can do is sports...

All women can do is nurture, be nice, smile. Damn you have really strict gender roles..

You need to read a book about patriarchy and get your consciousness raised. I'm serious. You are embarrassing yourself.

Please...get thee to library. I am :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl:

You are truly dense...don't you think war would be ended by now, dumby??? 'Innately' Then I guess you think men are innately violent? Why are most doctors men? Nurture....do you mean changing all the shitty diapers while men tend to affairs of the world.

Dear Mother of God....when did the Dems get so damn stupid?

[Voice for Peace]

277. LOL no, you are overlooking the power of women

and it is your interpretation which is sexist, not my perspective.

[Voice for Peace]

281. by nurture I mean instill self respect and dignity in children and team mates

"All women can do is nurture, be nice, smile. Damn you have really strict gender roles.."

This is a complete twisting of what I'm expressing, not what I am saying at all.
I am talking about serious power that women hold innately. It is not a barrier
to a woman being successful, professional.

And it's not a subject of debate, it's my point of view. I don't have your
bias about sexism, my life experience is different from yours. I think women
are extremely powerful, and not in ways that they need to compete with men.

You can't end war by giving people orders, or controlling other people.
You change yourself and it affects the world around you.

By understanding I mean able to communicate and be understood,
and influence others.

Everyone innately has the ability to dance, or at least to respond to rhythm,
because rhythm is innate. Our heart, our breath. Life itself is a rhythm
inside of us. Every human being should be able to dance for that reason,
but people are too busy being angry.

People who are controlled by their fears and wounds and their biases
create wars and discord, create sexism and exploit other people.

People who have dignity and are capable of understanding others
tend to be peacemakers, whether they are male or female.

[Lilith Velkor]

292. HELLO! She's running for CIC of a military capable of destroying the entire fucking planet!

America's role in the world is that of EMPIRE. How the fuck can you run for President of a global superpower and not be fucking authoritarian?

Women don't "innately have the power" to do anything but whatever the fuck they choose to do, including seeking and attaining a position of power.

We all have to work together to fix what needs fixing, and as a woman I'd rather not hear that patronizing Earth Mother horseshit, because I'm not above administering an ass-whuppin' and neither are many women so don't assume. It makes an ass out of just u.

[Voice for Peace]

293. patronizing

It's not just about women, it's about what's inside of everybody and you can call it horseshit if you like, I see it differently. I don't believe people are here on earth to boss each other around. I believe in freedom. Love is not an insignificant power. Men also have that power. Hardly anybody uses it.

[Lilith Velkor]

294. Yes, patronizing. That's why it's sexist.

Hillary's too authoritarian for what? To be in a position of authority? That is what a President is, a head of state, and the very definition of "state" is "the institution that claims for itself exclusively the right to use and legitimize force." Your beliefs have nothing to do with it.

"womankind is innately nurturing, etc?" That is a blatant sexist stereotype, and no amount of hippy-dippy kumbaya bullshit will obscure that.

[Voice for Peace]

295. LOL ok you win

[electron_blue]

296. The fact that you cannot see that what you just wrote is sexist is telling.

I'm curious - how would you define sexism?

Maybe a comparison to racism would be helpful. Do blacks innately have a certain power useful to running the world?

Please reread what you wrote in this light.

[Voice for Peace]

299. I don't know about running the world, but everyone has a beautiful power innate

which is a power for good. Bush's approach has been authoritarian,
by which I mean: do what I say, or I will hurt you in some fashion.
This is called coercive diplomacy. A threatening, controlling posture.

I don't think this is good for America or the world.

I heard Hillary say "I believe in coercive diplomacy" and my impression of her
is that she is too authoritarian, for my personal taste and for my world view.
It is my subjective point of view, no more.

I don't like authoritarianism from men or women, or any other creature for that matter.

I know myself well enough to know I am not sexist in my views, nor racist, If people
interpret my words that way, it is because that's what they are looking for, everywhere.

[Voice for Peace]

303. sorry, didn't answer your question directly

Q: How would I define sexism (and racism and other isms):

(Caveat: my views are subjective and based in the context of my
personal life experiences.)


1. Attitudes based in ignorance, especially of human potential

2. Assumption that a person is limited to a small conceptual box of what
they can do and be, based on social stereotypes or personal bias, prejudice.

3. Inability to see another human being clearly & with some combination
of compassion, wisdom, insight and authentic humility.

How would you define sexism and racism?


Q: Do blacks innately have the power to run the world:

I don't know if anybody has that particular power. But everybody has the
innate power of compassion, wisdom, insight, humility, self-knowledge.

I don't think this is a subjective opinion, as I am sure that such potential is
inborn, and what makes us most human. But I do think it's a matter of what
we choose to cultivate in ourselves, as well as the effect of our early life
conditioning, perhaps including life trauma.

Some people are also born with charisma and leadership qualities. I don't
know if that's universal, doesn't seem to be. Maybe people can develop
those qualities. At any rate, race and gender aren't prerequisites for that.

There are people who cultivate distaste or even hatred for others, based
on race or gender, or social status, or upbringing, or religion or lifestyle, or
on personal philosophy, mental health status, or on achievements or non-
achievements, or superficial appearance, or financial status, or sexual preference,
or political affiliation, and so on. This is ignorance and is the root of most wars.

There are people who see sexism and racism and other isms everywhere, even
if not necessarily there. This is Ismism. It gets nourished by hate and fear, anger
and mistrust. This is also a form of ignorance. Ismism doesn't heal or change the
humanitarian divides, it perpetuates them.

If I say something like "women have the innate power to be kind, and to heal"
it's because I have seen the power of it, of kindness and wisdom and how it
disarms. I shouldn't limit this to women, maybe that is sexist and demeaning
to men. Men also have this power; but I think women come by it more
easily.

It's innate potential; not everyone cultivates it, many overlook it in the
pursuit of having external power over others. But people who have power over
themselves have the most power.

Generally, biologically, evolutionarily, women live closer to their passion than
men do and I think it's related to the cycles of nature, the natural rollercoaster a
woman rides throughout her life, plus the evolved capability of giving birth and
nurturing offspring in order to ensure survival.

There is real strength and power in those who cultivate their ability to feel
and to understand others. Such people may be male or female or transgender,
black or white or yellow. Anybody.

[Voice for Peace]

304. ps

This question just occurred to me, related to isms:

If you see a young man who appears to be of middle eastern lineage,
especially if you are at the airport or a train station, or on a bus;
and he has a backpack, maybe looks unhappy, or avoids your
eyes, what comes to mind?




Do you think: visiting university student?

[xmas74]

97. So you are determining exactly how a "proper" woman

should act?

Who do you think you are!

[susankh4]

136. This is one of the most sexist things I have read to date.

Yes. I am calling you sexist.

And you won't even be able to figure out why.

[PurpleChez]

189. Hear, hear!

I see NOTHING in you post that says a woman can't be strong. (Others have accused you of this.) I'm not a Hillary hater, but nonetheless I see her as an opportunist, and I simply can't ignore how her vote on IWR enabled Chimpy's mass murder in Iraq.

[lark]

195. How about a man who says he's anti war

then votes to fund it each time? Sexism is very prevalent, just disguised.

lark

[femrap]

243. Another stupid teenie weenie....buh bye

[Jamastiene]

267. In other words, a woman who "knows her place,"

huh? Ignore.

[OzarkDem]

28. A woman president is exactly what they need

[JustDavid]

199. You are sexist.

Want me to prove it?



I'll say....A man president is exactly what we need.


Now is that sexist?

Saying "A black president is what we need" is just as racist and saying "A white president is what we need"

If I vote for a man simply because its a man, thats sexist.
If you vote for a woman simply because its a woman....thats sexist.

[femrap]

234. HEY...we live in a patriarchy, you fool.

The boys set the rules....primarily the white boys...did you forget that? Please do us all a favor and go read a book on patriarchy...at least go google it and read up a bit. You have no idea how stupid you come off. It's like dealing with a pre-schooler in a Philosophy class.

And you remember that black males got the vote 50 some years before women did?

My Ignore List is going to double with this thread, I'm quite sure.

They don't even know they're stupid....how bad is that?

[Binka]

70. Hugo Is Responsible For This? n/t

[whopis01]

176. lol. n/t

[smalll]

8. Most DUers are on the Obamabus. Women, especially older women (including "paleo-feminists"

whatever they are) all took their turns as speed-bumps long before tonight.

[SIMPLYB1980]

16. Obama has tossed a lot of us under that buss.

[Pryderi]

80. In what way did Obama toss women under a bus?

[SIMPLYB1980]

113. Lets see.

Obama
"You challenge the status quo and suddenly the claws come out,"
"I understand that Senator Clinton periodically,'' (See? He said it!) "when she's feeling down, launches attacks as a way of trying to boost her appeal."

Other ways Obama has thrown the Democratic party under the Buss.

Donnie McClurkin, "petty fights of the 60's and 70's", praise for Regan, denunciation of Bill Clinton's presidency after praising Regan, shall I go on. There are a lot of ways he has thrown the Democratic party under the buss to attract publicans to ashamed of their Fascist party to vote for McCain.

and this.

[Pryderi]

115. Obama did not praise Reagan, he acknowledged Reagan's impact on

the political landscape. Just as Reagan created, "Reagan Democrats", Obama is creating "Obama Republicans" .

BTW, Lions have claws. Hillary prides herself on being a fighter and Obama recognizes her ferocity power.

[SIMPLYB1980]

116. I see you touched the Regan thing, but you didn't respond regarding Obama's sexist comments.

Fuck Regan and Obama's excuse for praising him.

[Pryderi]

118. I also addressed your "claws" remark. Your sensitivity to "periodically" is unaddressable.

[SIMPLYB1980]

126. By saying Lions have claws, yeah I'm guess thats just what Obama ment.

For some reason though I'm not buying it.

[femrap]

240. What about the 'excesses of the '60's and

'70's' that BO mentioned? Protests against the war? Women gaining control over their bodies? Free Love? Just what didn't BO like about those decades? Karl Rove hated those decades as well, as know.

oink

[bjnumb9]

252. Oh. My. God.

Obama can't say the word "periodically?" Please please please PLEASE tell me that is a joke and that you're not really saying that was a sexist statement...

[LiberalAndProud]

291. That's what I thought the first time I saw this. But sadly not a joke.

Please remove perodically from your lexicon. The word has been deemed sexist.

[Greyskye]

316. but of course!

When something happens periodically, that really means that it happens once a month

Also, be very careful not to use the words "pad" and "maximum" in close proximity Oh, and no one can use those little round dots at the ends of sentences, as that's against the new rules as well

Hope this helped

[Mezzo]

88. I'm a Clinton Supporter and I don't believe that.

but saying "She's done nothing to stop Bush's power grab" is complete hypocritical bullshit.

[gerrilea]

10. EXACTLY! Great post!

[Yael]

11. As a female, I say, "oh please"

It is her temperament that is killing her.

[Skittles]

23. SHE'S IRRATIONAL!!! CRAZY!!!! SHRILL!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

:thumbsdown:

[jgraz]

59. No, she's just a piss-poor candidate who can't manage her emotions

[pnwmom]

77. When didn't she manage her emotions? I heard the MSM making that claim

a number of times, but the actual videos didn't back up the claims. I never saw a tear, or heard more than a slight catch in her voice. And if she hadn't ever shown any emotion -- if she hadn't, for example, responded appropriately when her former boss, shedding HIS tears, described how proud he was of all that she had accomplished over 35 years -- then people would just call her the Ice Queen.

[jgraz]

81. Once again, everything gets twisted to be about gender

I said nothing about tears or a catch in her voice. I'm talking about her managing her emotions as a candidate.

She either let her anger get the better of her, or she made a tactical choice to act angry when she should have known it would make her look silly. Either way, her emotional instincts are not serving her well.

[pnwmom]

90. When did she "let her anger get the better of her"?

I haven't seen any unusual displays of anger, nothing that would have been criticized if a male politician had expressed himself in the same way.

[jgraz]

101. Her famous "pamphlet" display on Saturday

And seriously, "nothing that would have been criticized if a male politician had expressed himself in the same way"??? Are you kidding? The guy would have been pilloried in the press. If anything, Hillary's gender saved her from the harshest type of criticism that would have been directed at a male candidate.

[pnwmom]

105. She had every right to express anger at Obama's Harry and Louise

pamphlets.

IF universal health care IS a strong goal of Obama's, he has a very strange way of showing it. Latching on to the Rethug's Harry and Louise scare tactics could come back to haunt him, in the likely event that he becomes the nominee. Either that or it will handicap HRC, if she's the nominee.

I get angry every time I see those pamphlets. What a nasty idea.

[jgraz]

111. Different argument

We can have a debate about those pamphlets at another time. The real question is: If I found her display to be unwarranted, even ridiculous, don't I have the right to say so without being called a sexist? Can I not blast her as much as I would blast a male candidate for what I saw as a cynical and poorly presented rant?

Try to separate the fact that you disagree with my point of view here. Do you accept that you and I could disagree about her approach without it necessarily being a gender issue?

[pnwmom]

123. Yes, you can say that and not be sexist.

There isn't a clear cut line to draw, unfortunately -- other than avoiding obviously sexist name-calling. But people should be careful in how they accuse Hillary of being overly emotional, because it feeds into the stereotype of women being overly emotional compared to men. Remember, it wasn't that long ago (in the 70's) that a serious debate was raging as to whether women's menstrual cycles and menopause made them unfit for the Presidency (even for women past menopause).

[jgraz]

127. Yeah, I've never found her to be "overly" emotional

A better description would perhaps be "poorly" emotional. It's the same problem I had with Kerry and Dukakis.

[pnwmom]

211. Then I think the problem you have with them is that they're all basically

introverts, trying to achieve success in a job where it is easier for extraverts to shine -- at least on the surface.

[susankh4]

138. Says who?

Oh that's right. The Man-stream-media.

[jgraz]

146. You're new here, so you may not have noticed that many of us don't watch MSM sources

Some of us actually do our own research and come to independent conclusions. You might want to try that yourself -- you'll get a much better response than if you continue to spout bogus talking points.

[pnwmom]

68. That she's too pushy and hard-edged? Or that she's too weak and tearful?

That she's too uptight? Or that she laughs too loudly?

That she's too reserved? Or that she's too fake?

That she doesn't bake cookies? Or that she forgave her husband?

From the time HRC has been in the national spotlight, she has been put in a constant double bind. Men are supposed to be strong leaders. Women are supposed to be supportive followers. If she acted as a strong leader, she was condemned for not being warm enough. If she showed a hint of warmth, she was condemned either for being too weak, or for being fake.

She has made mistakes in her positions, particularly in Iraq, that I HOPE are why she's behind now. But the misogyny that this campaign has exposed is disgusting.

[lastliberalintexas]

73. Great post!

[SammyWinstonJack]

78. ...

:thumbsup:

[xmas74]

83. Exactly!

No matter what she does it will always be wrong, according to some. Me-I want my daughter to be just as strong as HRC someday. After reading some of the posts here it sounds like she'll need every last bit of that strength to get ahead in this world.

I never thought I'd see the day that a group of progressives would spout RW talking points against a female candidate.

[jgraz]

99. Oh god -- point to one post mentioning cookies

These kinds of posts do nothing but play into the stereotype of brittle feminists looking for sexism in every word or gesture.

Hillary is NOT a confident candidate. She does not come across as comfortable in her own skin. So yeah, she seems uptight at times, she laughs too loudly, she acts too reserved and she seems fake.

Many of these charges were leveled at Kerry in 2004 (another politician who lacked the confidence to be himself). His mannerisms were different, so the specific adjectives were different, but it amounted to the same thing: the guy couldn't catch a break.

As long as a politician appears programmed as opposed to genuine, they are open to these sorts of attacks.


And while we're on the subject, why aren't you screaming at HILLARY, with her insinuations that a woman would somehow bring a "different perspective" to the presidency? Why is that not just as sexist as anything posted on DU? Or is it OK to play the gender card when it reflects favorably on your chosen candidate?

[pnwmom]

130. I think it's a plus for either Hillary or Barack that they would

bring a new perspective to the Presidency. We've had an unbroken line of white male Presidents -- almost an unbroken line of white male Protestant Presidents. It will be great to have a change, whether it is Barack or Hillary.

The reason I mentioned cookies is because that's how she got into trouble in the first place, when she first became First Lady. The Rethugs reacted with outrage when she said she wanted to do something as First Lady other than bake cookies. The furor back then was the beginning of the Hillary hate that still continues today.

[jgraz]

131. IIRC, a lot of feminists had a problem with Hillary's "cookie" comment as well

since she seemed to be demeaning stay-at-home moms.

[pnwmom]

137. I didn't perceive it that way, even though I was a stay-at-home

mom at the time.

I just thought she was speaking up for women making a CHOICE.

[femrap]

225. Do Not enter into conversation with

jgratz or whatever his name. His type of sexism is the worst. The 'Lefty' sexist...'I am cool and intelligent and should be listened to and admired by all...it's not my fault that I am smarter than all of the women...oh, I need some coffee, luv. Thank you, dear.'

He will never admit that his teeny weenie brain contains one cell of misogyny or sexism. He is an ugly wall that you need not waste your time on..unless you want to paint him with graffiti. He deserves a good taste of his own medicine...but in actuality, it is just a waste of time. Ridiculing is fun if you are bored and need a laugh.

This was a Public Service Announcement for all those great women out there who all know a jgratz or whatever then name.

[Jamastiene]

268. He is already ignored.

Has been for a while too. Thanks for the heads up.

[sybylla]

143. I absolutely agree

You've delineated the exact same problems I had with Kerry and even Al Gore - who his handlers didn't allow to be himself. It comes across phony, out of character, and they eventually lose a grip on what a real reaction to events should look like. I saw Al Gore at a state party convention 2 years later, he was a completely different person - himself. And I wished so badly that the real Al Gore had run. I knew he would have won had he just been genuine about why he was running and what his goals were.

Unfortunately, their handlers haven't figured out yet that a "packaged" candidate comes across as disconnected from reality and even, as one poster says here - batshit crazy. The package looks a little different (sometimes alot different) every day.

The public has no trouble spotting a phony.

[judaspriestess]

202. great post pnwmom

Hillary is damned if she does and damned if she don't.

Same thing with Cindy Sheehan. Does anyone remember when she was called a whore on here? When she bashed and protested the pukes she was the greatest, she protests a Dem and all of a sudden she is whore who needs to mind her own business.

its truly, truly sad and sickening.

[LostinVA]

86. Would you say that about racist posts?

[VotesForWomen]

219. hey, women marched aainst the ERA and their own right to vote. some women decide which side their b

bread is buttered on and work against the interests of other women. unfortunately, women can be almost as anti-women as men can.

[billbuckhead]

12. The sexism in this campaign has been a disappointing reality.

Elections reveal much about a people and the sexism against Hillary has been very ugly and even evil.

[MonkeyFunk]

19. Yes it has

and I honestly didn't expect it. I greatly overestimated how far we'd come.

[SayitAintSo]

20. Amen n/t

[Medusa]

13. I've been in the workplace since I was 18

that's 25 years. NOT ONCE have I cried on the job. Not ever. I don't want a weepy president. That's not being sexist. It's just a fact. I'm all for a female for president-just not THIS woman.

[NashVegas]

15. Plenty of Presidents Have Cried on the Job

Did you watch the 1993 inauguration? Bill Clinton let loose quite the stream during a church ceremony.

http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,305000,00.html

For a little historical perspective, says Lutz, author of "Crying: The Natural and Cultural History of Tears," it's helpful to look back to the 19th century, when skillful politicians like Abraham Lincoln used tears as a natural part of their oratory.

The tide later shifted against male crying, but in the last 30 to 40 years male crying has gained in acceptability. "Every president since Ronald Reagan has used tears at some point," says Shields, the Penn State psychologist.

As for women politicians, many remember the 1987 incident in which Rep. Patricia Schroeder, D-Colo., had to defend herself against charges of weakness after she wept while announcing her decision not to run for president. "I think it's a sign of compassion," she said later.

Military figures have cried at critical moments. Gen. Norman Schwarzkopf cried at a Christmas Eve ceremony in front of his troops, and when interviewed by Barbara Walters, Lutz notes.

There seem to be few limits on crying if you're an entertainment figure. Johnny Carson's tears were touching on the second-to-last night of his career, while serenaded by Bette Midler. As for awards shows, aren't we even a little disappointed (and bored) when a winner DOESN'T cry?

http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,305000,00.html

[lumpy]

33. Macho man is sooooooo out of date.

x

[MonkeyFunk]

54. Clinton never cried on the campaign trail, either

why do you believe she did? Because people here say so?

I never saw one tear.

[Bluenorthwest]

132. Romeny cried

Five times in one week and no one said a thing. He's a hetro man, so it is a good thing. Boo-hoo said Mitt, what a man said Tweety.

[madmom]

198. Don't forget Boener.. he cries at the drop of the hat.

[pnwmom]

66. She's not "weepy." The MSM and her detractors have exaggerated

the smallest hint of normal emotion -- such as when she was clearly touched when a male supervisor from 35 years ago shed tears in describing how proud he was of her. She would have been inhuman if she hadn't responded -- but let her show a hint of emotion and she's damned for it.

[xmas74]

92. There are times that tears are appropriate.

If a person can't let loose with a tear or two I'd wonder about the mental health of the person.

[xmas74]

89. I started working when I was 16

and I admit to having cried a few times on the job. Guess what? It was appropriate for the moment.

Oh, I guess I should add that the men were crying first on at least one occasion. I tried to keep a stiff upper lip but it didn't work.

[femrap]

245. Bill cried....that didn't bother you, did it?

Women have a completely different set of rules that they must live by: And the first rule is:

Whatever you do, it is WRONG. Number 2: You will be judged harshly by EVERYONE. Number 3: Remember # 1 ...you are WRONG.

And there was not ONE tear...I guess you want women of stone. Even Ronald Raygun cried. Even W gets teary-eyed.

Geez.

[susanr516]

266. Nailed it, femrap

That's it, in a nutshell.

[femrap]

271. I always keep my hammer handy! nt...lol

[lastliberalintexas]

14. I'ver also seen a few bad posts about Obama

The sexist crap directed at Clinton has certainly far outnumbered the racist crap thrown at Obama, but they are both here. Unfortunately. Though I will say that I see more posters get upset over the racist posts, most just ignore the sexism.

[lumpy]

36. There has been much discussion here regarding sexism against

Clinton. Granted there is a lot of garbage to be read, but there has been plenty if response regarding sexism. If you are implying that women (and some men)don't respond to sexism you had better rethink that.

[lastliberalintexas]

40. No, I guess I wasn't clear enough

What I meant is that many more posters will decry the racism but ignore the sexism and leave it unchallenged. I've seen Obama called a "boy" in a couple of posts, but there is always a challenge to such crap- as there should be. Clinton can be called all kinds of names, yet nothing happens. There are some posters who should have been baned long ago for the misogynistic rantings they've posted about Clinton, yet they are still here. One of the things which bothers me the most is that so many people refer to her as Hillary. Granted, times are changing and candidates of both genders are being called by their first names, but it still irritates me since I am old enough to recall that was a way to make the female candidate/journalist/athlete seem less professional than she really was.

I'm not a supporter of either since each is far, far more conservative than I and have basicaly stayed on the sidelines this primary. But there are plenty of legitimate criticisms to be leveled without resorting to such drivel.

Hope that makes my earlier post clearer. :)

[lumpy]

42. I could hardly believe some of the sexist crap I have read

today; derogatory rants, filthy name calling against H.Clinton. I have been posting on this forum for many years now and it is hard to accept that some of these people have not been tossed out on their assinine butts. It is difficult to challenge that type of rant without stooping to using the same rhetoric ( but mighty tempting).

[bjnumb9]

259. Look at her campaign signs

She doesn't want to be tied to the Clinton name - she WANTS to be referenced as Hillary. Go to her website. What does it say at the top?

"Vote Hillary for President"

[pnwmom]

69. Have you ever seen anyone make fun of Obama with regard to the

physical characteristics of his mixed race? In the way that people make fun of Hillary for her higher pitched voice or her female body shape?

Have you seen anyone here call Obama the N word? Why is it different to call Hillary a bitch or a whore?

[lastliberalintexas]

72. I saw one which in my opinion implied the n word

But for the most part, the things said about Clinton have far more vitriol behind them and far outnumber the things said about Obama. I am not and never have been a big fan of the Clintons, but I can't believe I have seen the right wing talking points of the 1990s posted here without any consequences. Much of that has been sexist drivel or rooted in sexism, since much of the reason H Clinton was such a target back then was that she dared to step out of the role of Stepford Wife for the First Lady. Sometimes I really do believe that many of the Obama supporters are too young to have remembered the battles the Clintons fought in the early 90s. The Vince Foster allegations being repeated here almost made me want to vote for Clinton, in fact.


I probably differ from many feminists in that I don't necessarily consider bitch to be a bad word. I often call myself a bitch, in much the same manner as the Tina Fey skit. For me, the use of that word depends on context- and I agree that the context in which it has been used against Clinton has not been good.

I would also have to say context determines whether "whore" was gender specific or not. Many people refer to corporatist politicians of both genders as corporate whores, which personally I think actually insults the men and women out there working the streets- at least they are making an honest living and not hurting others, unlike the politicians. There have been times in which Clinton and Obama both have done the bidding of Corporate America rather than vote as a progressive should, so there have been times each could have been rightfully tagged with that moniker. Perhaps it would be best to not use that moniker at all, regardless of gender- and I will try to remember that in the future.

[pnwmom]

82. I wonder if women who are comfortable referring to themselves as a bitch

are comparable to African-Americans, between themselves, using the N word. I think it's okay for individuals in both those groups to "own" those words, if they want to -- but it's a slur when non-blacks say the N word or when men call women bitches.

I hate the way the word "whore" has come into common usage, because I think it is a part of devaluing women, since the word originally referred to women, not men. But I know there are many here who disagree with me.

And I totally agree with you that Hillary-hate began because she took strong steps away from the Stepford Wife role (that has been filled so well, once again, by Laura Bush). And the fact that so many DUers don't understand that really bothers me.

[jgraz]

177. I will say, the most distasteful posts I've seen have come from women

I don't get the dynamic there.

[bjnumb9]

262. It's clear that there is a difference.

The N word is much worse. If you have two brain cells to rub together and a 1st graders grasp on World and American History, you should realize that.

[MrsBrady]

17. I agree with you...

I usually love KO, but the last couple of days I have wanted to slap the sh*t out of him.
(and he's even on my "list"...I love geeky smart guys...but he's pushing his freaking luck.)

I would welcome anyone wanting to call me a bitch. Go ahead. I think it's a great idea.
You say "Bitch" like it's a bad thing.

and I agree with Tina Fey.

Hillary's a bitch.
And so am I.
Bitches get things done

[madmom]

200. I agree I mentioned to my SO about how KO was rather biased against HRC....on

another note I was told a long time ago that a bitch was a woman who can't be controlled by a man, so in that context yes I'm a bitch, I hope HRC is a bitch and many more of ya out there.:thumbsup:

[femrap]

250. Call me a bitch...

and I say, 'That's Bitch Goddess to you. Now on your knees.''

[AZBlue]

21. Why is it sexist?

Men can be mentally unstable too. It's not a female-only thing.

[pnwmom]

67. It's because that's the stereotype. Men are supposed to be stable.

Women are supposed to be unstable.

If you're still unclear, then think about this. It would be racist to make fun of Obama for the color of his skin or for the texture of his hair. Right? And yet people don't hesitate to make fun of Hillary for having typical female features -- a higher pitched voice and larger hips. Why is that?

It doesn't matter that some men might have a higher pitched voice, too. Is it okay to call Obama "Brillo" just because some white people also have frizzy hair? When I was a kid, that name was used on me, and it wasn't racist, just mean. But if you call a black kid "Brillo" you are being racist. It doesn't matter that frizzy/kinky hair isn't a black-only thing.

[AZBlue]

227. I haven't seen anyone make fun of a higher pitched voice or her hips.

If I did, I'd certainly have issues with that! No, that's not an acceptable comment on anyone.

[femrap]

253. Then you're not paying attention....

they were jokes about her cleavage, her 'thick' ankles, her laugh...and now her emotional span.

There isn't a day that goes by that she isn't ridiculed on some level. Oh yes...she pimped out her daughter.

I have stopped watching TV altogether because of the return of rampant sexism...look at the sitcoms. Where are Roseannes? Murphy Browns? Designing Women? We just have fat husbands with wives that have lots of cleavage. Those 5 ugly, white republican males who own 80% of the Media have made sure that Women have been put back in their place...

[AZBlue]

288. I'm not on DU during the day at all and only some evenings during the week.

There are whole threads and issues that I miss entirely.

[femrap]

306. Well...you could always

go to the library and read a book about patriarchy, gender roles and sexism...even google it.

Wake up and see the patriarchy....read, open your consciousness, and evolve.

Six million witches weren't burnt at the stake because women were loved.

[AZBlue]

319. Chill out.

I am very familiar with sexism in general - I thought this was about Hillary in particular and DU especially?!? Try to stay on topic.

Go rant off to someone else - I'm not having any.

[femrap]

321. Wow...if you think that was a rant

you have some very thin skin. Sorry that suggesting you open your mind to something was interpreted as a rant.

Tell you what...I'll just ignore the willfully ignorant and do us both a favor.

[femrap]

251. You do realize where the word, 'hysterical'

comes from? Women have long been told they are emotionally and mentally unstable...why? Women are NOT allowed to show ANGER at all. She is ridiculed or shunned for doing so. Men, on the other hand, can rant and yell and be very angry...and the world steps back in awe and fear. The whole 'boys will be boys' attitude is accepted...they allowed to be mean, violent, angry, competitive...it fits nicely into the Capitalistic 'dog eat dog' culture. Women are just to be quiet and smile...stay home, clean and take care of the babies.

[demo dutch]

22. No shit I'm tired of men running this country! this country has HUGE gender issues!

[laconicsax]

241. FYI, It's spelled "HUGH!!1"

[MrsBrady]

302. spell check: hugh is like "hugh grant or "hugh laurie"

http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/huge

huge

Main Entry:
huge Listen to the pronunciation of huge
Pronunciation:
\ˈhyüj, ˈyüj\
Function:
adjective
Inflected Form(s):
hug·er; hug·est
Etymology:
Middle English, from Old French ahuge
Date:
12th century

: very large or extensive: as a: of great size or area b: great in scale or degree <a huge deficit> c: great in scope or character <a dancer of huge talent>
synonyms see enormous
— huge·ly adverb
— huge·ness noun

[laconicsax]

309. Thank you.

Your post is absolutely precious.

[Dr. Strange]

311. Get series!

Your post is discussing!

[racaulk]

313. Stop casting asparagus, you moran!

:eyes:

[Dr. Strange]

314. Give me a break, you looser!

By the way, your use of that smiley is a sure fire way to get on my Ignore list.

[racaulk]

317. What are you, 12 years old?

Just when I had almost forgotten about that... :rofl:

[Dr. Strange]

323. According to turtlensue...

I'm a ninth grader. So that makes me 14 or 15.

:patriot:

[theredpen]

324. Here, here! I think this has become a mute point, strickly speaking.

[Dr. Strange]

325. I've alerted on your post. You are so screwn!

[Greyskye]

310. FYI

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=358&topic_id=190#h

2nd entry. :evilgrin:

[LSK]

315. welcome to DU, its spelled HUGH!!!111 I am series!!!1!1111

[Critters2]

320. LOL!! Thanks for that! You're new around here, huh? nt

[LostinVA]

326. SERIESLY!12!!!!!111!! This Is HUGH!!!!11!!

[goldcanyonaz]

24. And by women on this forum as well. It's absolutely revolting. I wonder if they have careers.

That would wake their asses up in a heartbeat, or maybe not. Some might just be into perpetuating the myth that women are weaker than men are.

Thanks for the OP!

[cbayer]

25. I agree.

The comments just get worse and worse.

It's like a party with closet homophobes or racists who are all getting permission from their peers to start being openly bigoted.

And the mental health comments are especially objectionable. I read one today asking if she were on her meds. Disgusting.

But my experience with all the -isms and -ists is that they feel threatened. And being small and insecure, they attack what frightens them.

And sometimes I just sit back and imagine how small their dicks must be.

[chimpymustgo]

29. DUZY!!!! Oh CRAP...THE. POST. OF. THE. DAY!!!!

Teeny.

[cbayer]

32. Thank Chimpyl Loved your post and loved your outrage. nt.

[elias7]

249. now who's being sexist?

[bjnumb9]

265. Yes, that is indeed sexist

That implies that a man is no more than a penis, and that the size of that penis may measure his characteristics and/or his worth.

It is just sad that they don't realize the irony or they just don't care.

[emilyg]

224. I do that, too.

Picture them naked with their tiny wiggly invisible.

[Jamastiene]

286. I can answer that.

microscopic

[elias7]

289. Or how blonde their hair is or how big their boobs are?

You can't stay above the fray? Then you have no right to complain; you're acting like them...

[debbierlus]

26. No matter what you think about Clinton, she has been treated horribly

Sexism is so entrenched, the insults and degradation get passed off as status quo.

I said it before & I will say it again. America will see a man of any color before a woman as POTUS.

[OzarkDem]

27. Good point, double standard being applied here

Certainly not something you would think real Dems would engage in, but sexism has always been acceptable to some.

[Blue_In_AK]

30. Thank you so much.

Even my own dear husband who I love to death was calling her the B word every time she stuck to her guns. Mysogyny definitely lives. I was like "What the hell? They have almost the exact same voting record. You love him, but she's a BITCH???" I just don't get it.

[susankh4]

140. That is called hatred

it's not rational.

It is based upon stereotypes and visceral reactions.

[Blue_In_AK]

151. And really not typical for my husband at all...

who actually treats me like a queen. I keep telling him that he's bought into the right-wing stereotype of Mrs. Clinton, but I don't know if I'm getting through. I'm hoping maybe he's just pulling my leg a little to see what kind of a rise he can get out of me. His reaction to her is just so atypical, it doesn't make sense.

[susankh4]

141. That is called hatred

it's not rational.

It is based upon stereotypes and visceral reactions.

[starroute]

31. I've seen very little sexism and a lot of over-sensitivity

Face it -- men and women are different. They speak differently, they use different body language, they get angry differently. When we want to describe them behaving inappropriately, we have a different store of mental images and cultural types to compare them to.

Because of this, racism and sexism are also different. Overcoming racism may require our ceasing to perceive differences between individuals of different races. But sexism can never be overcome by insisting that men and women be perceived and described in identical terms, because that just doesn't correspond to reality.

The real problem arises not from perceiving difference but from interpreting "different" as "inferior." The people who scream "sexism" at every opportunity seem to believe that any negative reference to a woman which uses specifically female terms or images amounts a blanket statement that women are inferior to men. But that isn't necessarily true.

For example, a male candidate who seems to be inappropriately angry might be described as grumpy, grouchy, or pulling a "you kids get off my lawn," while a female candidate might be described as shrill or bitchy. But calling a woman shrill is no more sexist than calling a man grouchy -- unless you believe that grouchiness is acceptable but shrillness is unacceptable. And if you believe that, then the sexism is in your own mind, and not in the words.

Or as another example, if Hillary at her worst reminds me of the 8th grade English teacher I hated because she was sour, unimaginative, and had no sense of humor, while Obama reminds me of the 9th grade English teach everybody loved because he was cool and witty and could make even Ivanhoe seem like fun -- that's not a sexist comparison. It's just reference points.

For that matter, even if I say there were rumors the 8th grade teacher was bitter because she'd had an unsuccessful romance and never married, or that I suspect at this distance that the 9th grade teacher was particularly good at what he did because he was gay, that's not a reflection on either unmarried women or gay men. It's just an observation. And there is nothing sexist about observations of human nature.

[LostinVA]

93. You don't think "shrill" and "bitchy" are sexist?

Guess what? They are sexist, no matter how feebly you try to justify it.

"that I suspect at this distance that the 9th grade teacher was particularly good at what he did because he was gay, that's not a reflection on either unmarried women or gay men. It's just an observation."

That's quite a homophobic observation there, which ties back to misogyny.

[susankh4]

144. Thank you

for discounting my personal experience.

I am sure many, many women of my generation appreciate your callous assessment of the injustices we have struggled through.

[misanthrope]

161. Good post!**nm

**

[The Ghost]

34. Ummmmmmmmmmmm

So is it sexism when we call Bush stupid, hysterical, crazy, and mentally unstable?

NO, because neither has anything to do with their sex. You just call it like it is.

You're the sexist.

[samdogmom]

35. Hillary supporters really confuse me.

When she does bad, you guys scream "sexism". Yet, when SNL does a skit, seeming to endorse her--but calling her a "bitch"--you guys celebrate--like it's great to use that term about a woman. What do you want?

Face it, the problem is Hillary. She's simply flawed and it's not because she's a woman. It's because she's not the best candidate out there.

[NJSecularist]

38. Give me a damn break.

The problem is that every fucking criticism for Hillary is considered sexist. You guys move the goalposts as much as George W Bush does.

[chimpymustgo]

39. I'm not a "Hillary supporter". Trust - people can see injustice and not have a dog in the fight.

[MonkeyFunk]

41. Yep

the sad part is so many people refuse to even consider the possibility that they're being sexist.

Rec'ed.

[samdogmom]

44. Well I'm a woman and I just think she's a poor choice for the country!

I'm not being sexist at all, because I think I could do a good job running the country. Want to vote for me?

The problem is Hillary. Period. She's simply NOT the best candidate for what our country needs right now. She's divisive and polarizing. We DO NOT need another President with these characteristics--Dubya was enough, thank you.


Criticism of someone is not necessarily sexist! Sometimes people are criticized simply because the criticism is warranted!

[MonkeyFunk]

45. Nobody's claiming all criticism is sexist

I don't know why your side keeps making that claim.

But it's undeniable that calling her shrill, a banshee, a witch, a bitch, hormonal... those are sexist attacks.

[samdogmom]

48. Ummm--as I pointed out up thread "bitch" was okay when SNL called her that!

There's a double standard going on here--if you're a Hillary supporter (or appear to be) you can call her names (like Bitch) and it's okay.

If you don't like her tactics--then you can't use any of these terms. It's confusing. She is shrill at times. The word I would use to describe her tone when she said "Shame on You, Barack...." would be shrill. What term would you use?

Bottom line--the attacks aren't meant to be sexist--they're simply a reflection of this particular candidate. The words describe her or her actions--not women in general.

Believe me, I have often lamented that a woman would be a better president than Dubya--but not this woman! I'm talking about a woman who negotiates and uses "words" and not "fists" to solve things. Hillary has proven that she's a "fist" problem solver. She's not my cup of tea!

[MonkeyFunk]

55. You're just making shit up now

[samdogmom]

56. I am? What am I making up?

Please elaborate.......

On Edit:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=132&topic_id=4738689

ENJOY!

[susankh4]

147. Actually.... this is a very well worn empowerment strategy

of calling *yourself* by a name that others bash you with.

The N***** word has been used this way by rappers.

Some gay folks have called themselves Fa** or Dy***.

It does not give the REST OF US the right to use those words. Unless we are invited to, of course.

[ElboRuum]

201. Wrong.

It's that the accusation flies around here so much, the whole thing's become devalued. I've been called sexist several times, and never once have I agreed with the assessment. Nevertheless, the fact that a person does not consider him/herself to be an asshole has never stopped anyone from leveling the charge at them.

Meh.

[Hoof Hearted]

43. K&R - ice queen or cry baby or too emotional

Doesn't matter. And Keith O? He can rot in hell, really.

[Political Heretic]

46. Clintons behavior was shockingly amateur and unprofessional for someone claiming such vast political

experience.

That's my opinion.

Not crazy....

Not bitchy....

Not shrill.....

It was simply like watching an amateur candidate running for city counsel. It wasn't because she got tough. She should have gotten tough, and she should have gotten tough long ago. But it her response didn't come across as "tough" - they came across as unprofessional, as though she had taken to low road, and it undermined any credibility she might have had in her issues with the Obama campaign - which is a large part of the reason why her attacks didn't get more traction.

I will continue to stand up against blatant misogynistic remarks, as I have, as you can check for yourself reviewing my posting history. But you also should be expected not to conflate ALL criticism of your candidate with sexism.

Clinton has looked very amateur and very unprofessional as her campaign as come into trouble. She hasn't handled the crisis well, in fact I would call her campaign one of the biggest failures when it comes to adapting to challenges of any in modern history. And I'm not going to be FEARED into not saying so by the threat of being labeled a woman hater for telling the truth.

[madmom]

203. your posted reasons for not liking HRC came across as authentic , not sexist..

see there is a way to criticize with out being sexist. Your use of the words amateur and unprofessional are very gender neutral and is the way it should be done.Kudos to you, even though I disagree.;-)

[anonymous171]

47. I usually avoid posting in those threads. nt

[writes3000]

49. I'm an Obama supporter and I do speak up....

all the time. I resent your assumption that I don't.

[BlooInBloo]

50. There are no racist threads, only oversensitive readers.

[jgraz]

60. Uh huh

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=132&topic_id=4748699

[Straight Shooter]

51. Well, I'm disappointed in this entire country. We're going backwards. n/t

[femrap]

256. Backlash started in '80 with Raygun...

that Backlash slowed during Bill Clinton....but we are going down a steep slope now. Did you hear that W told the Bureau of Labor Statistics to remove the category of Women in the workforce? Now we can be invisible!

And these assholes on DU wonder why we're angry.

[Straight Shooter]

260. .

I think I'm about as angry as I've ever been in my life, just a slow, simmering resentment at our lack of progress. It's like the magical curtain has been pulled aside and I see how really ugly it is out there.

This nation will not heal.

[femrap]

270. Let's put that anger to good use!!! nt

[Straight Shooter]

279. I like your attitude. I think I'll borrow some of it.

:D

[femrap]

280. Be my guest...! And make

sure you laugh a lot while fighting the good fight. :toast:

[MagsDem]

52. Same reason they tolerate his pandering to homophobic bigots

Don't expect them to be embarrassed. I think they are actually proud of it. That's why I call Obama our party's George Bush. But hey, he's a uniter, not a divider.

[mkultra]

53. Im male

And im proud to be a man. in a way i am a masculinist and in other ways i am a feminist. I will not push a woman forward because she is female but i do believe that women have been and still are disadvantaged.

If you think that a feminist is pro-female, then i do not support you. If you think that a feminist is about equality and justice leading to women having a choice, then im one too.

So now that you have my bias, let me say that i have seen almost zero racism here and i have seen some overt sexism. Ive seen several over calls but there have been more than just a few real occasions. Seems like some of the men that do not like hillary jump to the misogyny to be hurtful.

[pnwmom]

96. Thanks for your honesty, mkultra. n/t

[lumberjack_jeff]

154. If feminism were about equality, wouldn't they call it something else?

Feminism is about promoting the interests of women. I don't begrudge that, but I think it's important to recognize it for what it is.

The bar association, the AMA and trade unions all promote the interests of their membership. Every other consideration is tactical.

[mkultra]

155. then im not a feminist like you

I don't support female issues. I support equality of women with men and giving women the resources and choices they need to control their own destiny. If you go to war with men then you are as bad as those men who would push you down.

[LostinVA]

169. "I don't support female issues"

Shocker.

:eyes:

[mkultra]

172. ignored

[LostinVA]

173. I will pray for you

:hug:

[lumberjack_jeff]

188. Supporting womens issues

... and supporting womens issues without regard to human issues are two different things.

It is possible to be pro-choice, support Hillary, elect a woman governor and two women senators and avoid religion because of their patriarchal traditions - while simultaneously appreciating the failure of boys in school, their relative inability to go to college, their shorter lifespans, fathers inability to get a break in family court and mens' greater likelihood of being a victim of a violent crime.

Here's the deal. I think that modern gender feminism does more harm than good. Most anecdotes which are used to demonstrate the power that men as a group have over women, ("Iron my shirt!") do nothing to improve any inequities women face, (after all, the "victim" of the joke is a candidate for the presidency) while the manufactured outrage is used to justify and defend the inequities that men face.

This is a war waged to try to get men to feel the injustice that women perceive. The more that women perceive injustice, (OMG! He called her shrill! Off with his balls!) the more justice demands offsetting retribution.

...or, at a very minimum, :eyes:.

I see very little emphasis on equality.

[mkultra]

229. so a few zealots exist

In the true tradition of men everywhere, just ignore them.

[lumberjack_jeff]

247. I disagree.

The true tradition of men every where is to ignore those who don't merit being taken seriously. The zealots in question do.

Ignoring them is an unhealthy mix of denial and condescension.

[femrap]

255. Go read a book about patriarchy...maybe

by Andrea Dworkin...and then come back and chat. The masculine and feminine must be equally admired. Yin and Yang. The feminine in our culture gets very little respect.

When a candidate for the presidency is ridiculed, it harms all of that gender. What if someone in the crowd started yelling 'let's see you dance' to BO? Or 'Go play sports.'

You're a waste of time. Catch up. Read.

[mkultra]

257. you said it perfectly

i appreciate the unique station of men as i do that of women I see them as equal values even when they dont look the same on the surface. The intermixing of these two states of being is the natural event that creates life, the ultimate magic trick.

Men and women are two winds of the same storm. When one is insulted, so is the other.

[lumberjack_jeff]

276. "Men and women are two winds of the same storm. When one is insulted, so is the other."

:banghead:

[mkultra]

301. sorry jeff

Your just not getting it. Maybe you could start a thread and we will try again.

[lumberjack_jeff]

275. Sorry. Didn't mean to oppress you. n/t

[femrap]

284. How gallant...a

patriarchial supporter apologizing for his benefits. Charmed.

Go read a book. Maybe google. You know...learn, evolve.

I just laughed...I'm telling Paul Bunyon with his widdle axe to evolve. :rofl:

[mkultra]

156. fyi

fem·i·nism (fĕm'ə-nĭz'əm) pronunciation
n.

1. Belief in the social, political, and economic equality of the sexes.
2. The movement organized around this belief.

[lumberjack_jeff]

160. What's NOW's position on draft registration for 18 year-old women?

*crickets*

So much for equality.

[mkultra]

171. im afraid i dont get your point

could you explain

[lumberjack_jeff]

180. When boys turn 18, they are required to register for the selective service.

It is an institutionalized form of gender discrimination enshrined in our law. An organization dedicated to gender equality would lobby congress to change this law. The NOW does not, because the current state of affairs is in their constituents interest.

I can give dozens of examples of structural inequities from which women benefit. The NOW is silent on all of them. That's their prerogative, in fact I suggest that they would not be serving their constituents to the best of their abilities if they did otherwise.

Equality is a head-fake. I wish the facade would be dropped. In fact, those from whom I get the least argument in this observation are women.

If there were such a thing, "masculism" could be defined as seeking equality too, but it wouldn't spend much time on the issues from which women suffer.

[VotesForWomen]

223. and when there is gender equality they won't have to. clue: equality does not mean that women must

do everything exactly like men do. that wouldn't be much equality, would it. equality may just as well mean that men will do things the way women do, or both will do things their own way. if you think i'm signing on to the male war machine just because i claim equal rights, you can think again.

[mkultra]

232. interesting

First off, your snarkiness is the essence of shrill. Take that how you want to.

Second, i dont think he was saying women should do things like men because i doubt we will do things like women.


He is saying that if you believe that military service honorable, women who join the military should not only be willing to take the same risks but they and their backing orgs should be demanding it.

[lumberjack_jeff]

238. Selective equality.

Okay.

[mkultra]

228. well, i cant speak for NOW

as i have no criticism or real knowledge of their stand on things. I do agree that women should be allowed to fight, dare i say required(if i believed that war was acceptable). I do yield some to organizations that attempt to achieve equity by only supporting equality aspects that favor them when they are clearly already disadvantaged. The theory behind this being that once equality is achieved, the validity of the organization will fade and it will cease to exists.


You have to admit that womens suffferage would have been much harder to achieve if they also attempted to right the wrongs of racism at the same time. On many some, this perceived bias you speak of is more a related to cost and efficiency than subjectivism.


But i digress, any organization that is attempting to help a group that has already been held down need not help the oppressor to achieve equality as he already has it.

I do think that the buck stops when advantage starts to gain, which is the case in a few areas of American sex relations.

A masculinism movement would only have erupted if women had been pushing down on males for centuries. Instead, to me, masculinism means to understand that men are different then women and refuse to be ashamed of my tendencies and natural instincts because the are unpalatable to some women, and a few men.

[lumberjack_jeff]

244. Selective service registration isn't optional.

In the event that shit hits the fan, men will be conscripted. Women not. A woman can decide if she wants to join. If she later wants out of the service, she can choose motherhood with an honorable discharge. Fatherhood? No excuse.

In the feminist view, this is as the world should be. I don't see equality as the goal. It's picking and choosing the elements of the patriarchy which benefit.

[Stand and Fight]

57. A hearty recommendation and a strong kick.

'Bout time somebody called out these bastards.

[provis99]

226. hmmnfph. With the word "bastards"

you managed to slur all men at once, and insult women too (specifically their mothers).

[femrap]

258. do you get that upset over the word, bitch?

Whore? I bet boywhore would rile ya.

[Stand and Fight]

322. Well, boo-fucking-hoo. n/t

[jgraz]

61. Sorry, chimpy, you're seeing sexism in legitimate criticism.

Critique of Hillary's poor UI and incompetent tactics do not amount to saying "THE BITCH IS HYSTERICAL", anymore than complaints about Obama's arrogance equate to calling him "uppity".

She deserves every brickbat she gets for this weekend's performances. She looked terrible and it likely cost her support. Any man delivering the same diatribes would have gotten the same criticisms -- probably worse.

People using sexist epithets or jokes about PMS should be rightly called on their bullshit. But most of what you're seeing is an honest reaction to a candidate who is badly flaming out. Expecting her to be excused from criticism -- or even ridicule -- simply because she's a woman is just as problematic as most of the sexist crap I've seen posted here.

[chimpymustgo]

71. Sorry to you, jp. I'm just calling it like I see it. It's been utterly infuriating and disheartening

There have been so many threads about Hillary being unhinged - the 3 faces of Eve, PMS'ing etc. It's opened my eyes. I really though we'd gotten past some of this shit. I was wrong.

[jgraz]

76. PMSing is sexist. Unhinged is not.

I think that people become sensitized to this when it's their candidate who's taking criticism, especially when she's behind.

As an example, there's been a post on the greatest page for the past 24 hours entitled "Dana Perino, unhinged..."

Number of Hillary supporters objecting? Zero

[pnwmom]

103. "the sexist crap I've seen posted here"

is exactly what this thread is about.

The OP isn't complaining about honest, logic based criticisms of HRC. What bothers the writer, and many of us, is the sexist crap that gets thrown around here -- stuff you'd expect from Rush Limbaugh but not from DUers.

[jgraz]

108. when the OP complains about words like "unhinged" she is going after legitimate criticisms

I'll grant you that things like "shrewish", "wifey" and of course "b****" are beneath contempt. I'll even forego "shrill" -- although my favorite target for that adjective is Ralph Nader.

But not every negative attack is gender-based. I found this weekend's emotional display to be troubling. I thought it unpresidential. The fact is she made a poor tactical choice and she executed it badly. There's nothing sexist about pointing that out.

[pnwmom]

110. Okay, so I assume you'll also agree

that referring to either Hillary -- or her supporters -- with words like banshee, harpy, and witch are also unacceptable.

These kinds of slurs occur so often, but I think they pass under the radar screen of a lot of younger DUers, and many of the guys.

[jgraz]

114. Yeah, that's obvious

(not as sure about banshee, but I never use it)

When I see that kind of stuff, I make a point to blast the poster. Hillary deserves a lot of criticism for her campaign (IMHO) and the sexist crap just makes a real debate that much harder.

[pnwmom]

120. Right. That crap just obscures the real issues.

It doesn't make the users' arguments any stronger, that's for sure. In fact, it creates a backlash among people like me, who've always liked Obama but don't like to see Hillary -- or her supporters -- mistreated.

Banshees are female creatures that scream, so I'd continue to keep it out of your Hillary vocabulary, if I were you. :)

[jgraz]

167. Huh, didn't know banshees were always female

I guess I'd better re-read my Harry Potter ;)

[high density]

74. At every turn Clinton is the one campaigning as "The Woman"

So in my opinion much of this perceived sexism is being brought on in a large part by the way she's campaigning. Add in a dash of DU feminism outrage and here we are.

[MethuenProgressive]

75. DU allowed a racist thread *for* Obama.

Cheering on a thread* equating the Clinton campaign with the lynching of black men and boys got 29 recs, and remains open after at least a dozen alerts.

Imagine how long a thread equating the Obama campaign to the raping of women and girls stay up and unlocked, imagine how with that poster would be tombstoned.

*It is important to note that many Obama supporters rejected the message in that thread publicly.

[electron_blue]

87. "She's just so ambitious"

Last week someone interviewed on tv was asked her opinion of the debate and she was livid. She said she couldn't stand Hillary because "she is just so ambitious". She was obviously disgusted with her.

Wtf? This woman was serious. She had no idea what she said was sexist. She didn't have a problem with Obama or McCain being so ambitious. Yeah, duh, Hillary is running for President of the U.S. Arguably the most powerful position in the world. I'd say she was ambitious.

This country has come so much farther with racism than sexism.

[femrap]

263. I've seen this type of reaction from

women about HRC. It's as if they were not allowed to be ambitious in their lives so damned if some other women is going to be. I guess a bit of jealousy.

I've had women tell me that they had to have children so other women should too. They anti-choice. It is so weird how women want to keep other women down...of course women are taught to compete with other women to get men....taught not to trust other women. Some of us reject those lessons.

Something good is going to come out of HRC's running and the ridicule she has taken....women are going to get angry and no longer be silent to sexist actions and words they endure.

[shaniqua6392]

94. Racism will be "cured" long before sexism.

That is a fact. The country will not allow a woman to be in such a role of power. They will give it to a black MAN first. People on DU should be ashamed for accepting the sexism that has gone on. Maybe we are not so progressive after all.

[robbedvoter]

95. Beautifully stated!

[0007]

98. That's alright deary, you're just having a 'human moment'

Hillary has 'human moments quiet often, doesn't she?

"I hope, one day some of you will wake up and be very fucking ashamed and embarrassed."

[LostinVA]

106. Can you make a single post that isn't sexist or otherwise nasty about something?

[0007]

119. Go ahead and have a human moment yourself and have a nice

day.

[pnwmom]

125. No, or she wouldn't so often be accused of being too cold. n/t

[SeaLyons]

100. I'm with you...

it's absolutely amazing. The women of this country should be outraged, but sexism seems to be totally acceptable to the point of even going unnoticed.

Hillary for President!!!!

[Beausoir]

102. This country is not ready for a strong woman President. Just look at the Obama threads about V.P.

choices.

Even in their fantasy world, not one of them EVER mentions a woman as a potential Veep candidate for Obama.

No women need apply.

[totodeinhere]

122. Obama is always calm cool and collected.

Perhaps Clinton should take a page from Obama's playbook. This has nothing to do with the fact that Clinton is a woman. If Obama had been that angry and accusatory then he would also have been criticized for it. It's not about Clinton's gender. It's about her demeanor as a candidate. We have got to get to the place where we can criticize Clinton without someone pulling out the sexism card every time.

[pnwmom]

128. When Hillary WAS always calm, cool, and collected, she was accused

of being an Ice Queen.

Until a few months ago, she was considered cold and unfeeling. Now she's considered too emotional. This is the classic double-bind. Nothing she does is ever good enough.

[totodeinhere]

134. Hasn't Obama also been accused of one thing or another?

Didn't we see rumors that he is really a Muslim? (Not that there's anything wrong with being a Muslim but you get my point.) All kinds of shit flies around in a hard fought campaign. That's just the nature of campaigning. But that doesn't mean that any criticism of Clinton has to be sexist.

[pnwmom]

139. Of course it doesn't mean that "any" criticism of Clinton is sexist.

But the OP, and I, too, have seen innumerable instances of sexist name-calling and ridicule. That's what we're objecting to, not rational criticism based on the issues.

[jgraz]

178. You should consider the real possibility that, in reality, nothing she does is ever good enough

I have the reactions you described to Hillary quite often. It has nothing to do with her gender and everything to do with her being an over-programmed candidate. I felt the same way about Kerry.

[marshall]

129. Hillary invites commentary on her gender

Obama on the other hand does not invite commentary on his race.

Someone forwarded a Hillary ad to me this morning that consisted of what seemed like 15 to 20 different Texas women imploring us to "do it for Hillary".

I have yet to see an Obama ad that consists solely of African American supporters in such great number.

[pnwmom]

142. She doesn't invite sexist slurs. What if Obama were a candidate more in

the style of a Jesse Jackson, more oriented toward African-American supporters? Would that make it okay to use racial slurs? Of course not.

[marshall]

148. When you invite the commentary you get both sides

I'm not justifying sexism or racism. The question seemed to be why there was perceived to be sexist commentary about Hillary and little or none racist commentary about Obama. My point is that Hillary highlights her gender and therefore she will inevitably get the downside as well as the upside of that approach.

[pnwmom]

157. You're still not seeing my point. If it's not acceptable for DUers to

use racial slurs when criticizing Al Sharpton, who "highlights" his race, why is it acceptable for any of us to use sexist slurs against Hillary?

[marshall]

168. I do agree that it should not be acceptable

Unfortunately society tolerates sexist remarks wheras racist remarks would be socially ostracizing.

I think Obama has skirted the racial issue as much as he can by not making his race a front centerpiece of his campaign. Hillary on the other hand uses her gender at every turn--saying that she "embodies change" points up the fact that her body is biologically different than everyone else that has been president. I think there would have been some advantage to her just not addressing the issue--not having campaign ads that feature only women, not referring to her bodily differences, etc.

[Maddy McCall]

164. It's because you see it through a sexist lens that she "invites" it.

You want to see her in a sexist light, so you do.

She doesn't invite sexism as a tool against her. You willfully use it and then blame her for having to pull it out.

[femrap]

264. Yes...she does highlight it....

I think she styles her hair, wears make-up, puts on heeled shoes along with a dress. I've even seen her wear jewelry. I have often heard her sing the Helen Ready song 'I Am Woman.' She is just too damn much of a woman. :sarcasm:

I bet you have never read a book about sexism, gender roles, patriarchy or anything else of that nature. Just because you are male, you think you have something 'important' to say.

What you just wrote was a pure example of stupidity.

Reflect. Read. Evolve.

[susankh4]

133. Take a look at this AP Video

http://video.ap.org/v/Legacy.aspx?f=MOEED&g=c0759e5c-aa68-4864-8f6e-8f678e104a91&t=s201&rf=http%3a%2f%2fwww.ap.org%2fOVN%2fvideo.html&fg=tool&partner=en-ap

It gets the point across about what we, as a society, tolerate.... at the expense of our young women.

[Raffi Ella]

145. Black is Beautiful - So is Woman.

In all our many facets and forms and voices and emotions.We're not men,Deal With It.We ARE different and I am not ashamed of that.



About Keith,yeah,well,I don't have a leg to stand on.I accepted his Fox News for The Left when I agreed with him.I never spoke out about it because it was amazing hearing him tell Bush off, but when you think about it - he IS Our Fox news.

He is part of the problem even though he is a Democrat.I'm disappointed in him.Especially when last summer he couldn't get enough of Hillary and Bill.Said wonderful things about them,had them on his show and fought the MSM meme 'Hillary is a Polarizing Bitch'.

What a Fair Weather Friend he turned out to be.I keep wondering what did Hillary ever do to YOU Keith??

[Name removed]

150. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. 
[link:www.democraticunderground.com/forums/rules.html|Click
here] to review the message board rules.

[lumberjack_jeff]

153. GD/P is too large a net. We need two new forums

GD/P/Hillbots are racists! and

GD/P/OMG! Obamaphiles hate women!

The garment rending and gnashing of teeth can then be conducted in a place which is easy to avoid.

How many posts each day do we get which say the exact same thing?

Grow up. Our candidates are running for the Presidency of the United States. It's a high stakes game in which they and their opponents will do anything to win. Bad tactics are the ones which lose. Constant snivelling about other candidates supporters saying mean things about your candidate does nothing to bring anyone over to your side. It just makes your candidate look weak.

FWIW, I'm a lukewarm Hillary supporter because I consider healthcare to be the primary differentiating issue.

You're welcome to be outraged. That does not imply that I'm obliged to agree.

[femrap]

269. Why do you say Hillary supporters are racist?

I believe you are missing the point. I am not sniveling about how my candidate is treated (because I know she has very thick skin and has experienced this stupidity a million times). I am disgusted by the amount of sexism and misogyny in the American culture.

If our culture treats a candidate for the Presidency of the United States of America as a joke, then what chance do the rest of women have? ARE YOU FUCKING DENSE? HRC is anything but weak....if you boys got half the ridicule and nasty comments about your body parts, you'd be in a crying rage.

Go read a book on patriarchy or sexism...go to the library...there's a whole section.

[Beacool]

159. In this great country of ours sexism trumps racism!!!!

Obama has mostly gotten a free pass from a media that is afraid of being called racist if they impede the nomination of a black man.

Though they have no compunction to go after a woman, in particular if her last name is Clinton. I would have no problem if the punditry discussed her policies and found them wanting, but the main discourse has always been sexist remarks geared at her gender.

The media's main thread today is that Hillary was "shrill" at the debate. I think that if I hear one more time the word shrill associated with her, I'm going to be sick!!!!

I'm NOT surprised that men feel that way. If there's anything I've learned in my life is that deep down the majority of men are sexist, even the ones who called themselves progressive (suffice it to read what they post on this board). What pains me the most is seeing women use the same tactics on another woman. That's beyond pathetic and self destructive!!!!!

I'm at the point of giving up on this election. I will go this weekend and help out in RI (closest state to my own), but if Hillary has to drop out on March 5th, the Democratic party can go and find someone else to campaign, fundraise and get out the vote. I'm done with the party for a while and won't give a rat's tail end who gets in next year.

[bjnumb9]

273. Well pack up your toys and get out of the sandbox.

Here's your theme music for your departure.

:nopity:

The Republicans thank you for your decision.

[Kittycat]

162. Terms such as "Mental, Crazy, Insane, Off Meds, etc" are not sexist.

I don't condone the use of Bitch, or the extreme comments, but there must be some way to describe her erratic behavior. I like to think it's her campaign managers all trying on the HRC suit and going out posing as her. But they're making her come off as though she has multiple personality disorder. She needs to cut some of them, before they ruin her. I just cannot believe for an instant, that all those sides of her - are really her.

[question everything]

163. And if she had not expressed a range of emotion - as most humans do -

she would be called a cold, calculating robotic bitch.

Where is Oprah?

[IdClaire]

165. sad but true

I've asked a female relative and another female friend what they thought about Hillary and they both told me they don't trust her. I find that interesting. I've never heard someone say during an election, "I don't trust John Kerry." or "I don't trust Bush". It seems if its a woman, she is held to a different standard. I want to say to my friend, you aren't voting for a best friend, you are electing someone to be the freakin president. ARGH!

[NOLALady]

166. You'll find many on this board,

who say they don't trust Obama. Maybe he also held to a different standard. :shrug:

[Marie26]

170. I blame the administrators.

That's right. Let's face it, the admins set the tone of the board, and set the guidelines as to what is & is not acceptable. And they've been very quick to ban/delete racist posters, but have let the misogynists & sexist rants stay. Female DU'ers have complained about this for ages, to little to no avail. A few of the best female posters have actually asked for a tombstone as a protest. The administrators are all men, and yes, I do think they are more tolerant of the sexism here than they are of religious/ethnic bigotry. But I guess it's just a reflection on society at large, in which rampant sexism is still accepted in many ways.

[VotesForWomen]

181. go girl! and this crap will continue until women refuse to put up with it any longer. nt

[Chalco]

182. I agree completely.

[AngMic]

183. You Are Soooooooo Right!

There is nothing to bring out the 15th cent. paternalistic instincts in a gut like a strong competent woman. I am appalled and disgusted with all the media, who by the way will turn on Obama about 2 seconds after he is declared the nominee. I do not think that he can stand up to the mountain of slime that they are preparing to release on him. I hate to sound paranoid but I am bracing for another 8 years of republican rule.

[Deep13]

184. They just don't see it.

Being brought up in a culture that expects women to be "lady-like" (that means deferential and quiet) and to marginalize their feelings and opinions, a lot of people even on this site just don't recognize the chauvinism when they see it. I think this is especially true for new voters, many of whom have never experienced gender discrimination and societal chauvinism it first hand. Either that or they think ignoring deep-seated sexism is the same as eliminating it.

[krkaufman]

190. Pardon me, but hasn't Sen. Clinton injected sexism into the campaign ...

... by saying that a woman would bring a different perspective to the White House?

[JoFerret]

191. Misogyny runs deep

Powerful women are always held to a double standard an demonized.

Whether she is the better candidate or not this misogyny is shameful. (So I don't want to hear a defensive list of her political failings etc. Irrelevant)

And of course it comes not just from men. Sexism - like racism and homophobia - are often deeply internalized.

[frog92969]

192. I don't see it.

Is it because we call men "assholes" and women "bitches"?
I've only seen political attacks often countered with a "sexist defense".
I don't hate her because she's a woman, I hate her because she's corrupt.

If her supporters can back her no matter what, just because she's a woman, doesn't that make THEM sexist?

[madmom]

205. saying her supporters back her because she's a woman is the same as saying

Obama supporters back him because he's black or because he's a man. There is no proof for either statement.

[frog92969]

206. Sorry, that's not what I meant

I meant supporters of hers - not all her supporters.
I know they exist because they brag about the fact.

[shayes51]

196. Sexism is older than racism and is still alive and well.

:mad:

[GoneOffShore]

197. Je pense vous n'avez pas raison.

Au revoir.

[Name removed]

204. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[lumberjack_jeff]

208. Consider it cultural learnings for make benefit of most glorious nation of canuckistan. n/t

[chimpymustgo]

210. Okay, that's funny.

[femrap]

242. Go back inside your cage.

You are on Alert.

[Puckster]

207. I've been saying the same thing for weeks.

It's still ok to trash women. I'm sick of it.

[David Zephyr]

209. K&R.

Your point needs to be not just made, but spotlighted.

[Medusa]

216. Funny, we never heard a single complaint about sexism

until she started losing. :eyes:

[Jamastiene]

231. Not funny.

And many of us have alerted on sexist posts throughout the years on here.

[femrap]

221. Let me kick and rec!!!

I quit watching Keith O. a couple of months ago. I emailed him about his sexist insults twice and the third time, he had blocked my email. What a COWARD! He can shovel it out but can't handle the return volleys. I certainly wouldn't want him on my team...he's a run and hide porker. Oink.

I don't even watch the news anymore...it's too frustrating...nothing but a bunch of propaganda. And don't tell me that Keith hasn't been told he can keep his 'Special Comments' as long as the last 15 minutes trashes women. May he never get fucked again....and to his bosses Zucker of NBC and Jeffy Immelt of General Electric, I hope some of the more nasty side effects of viagra hit them right between their blind eyes.

I hadn't heard any of what your post talked about...but I am not surprised one iota. I have been waiting for the 'hysterical' crap to come out of their dirty, childish snouts.

All I'll be able to do for this election if BO is the nominee, is hold my nose and vote for him. I won't lift one of my witchy fingers to help him. I want a Third Party. And here women are the backbone of the Dem Party. I won't make another call, knock on a door, mail another letter, give another penny, or spit on one of the sexist dems if he is on fire.

I admire you anger and wish I could rec your OP a thousand times over!

Never underestimate the power of a pissed off woman.

[Marie26]

233. It's time for me to send Keith

an email instead in your honor. :evilgrin:

[femrap]

272. Oh Thank You So Much!!!

I was just shocked that I was blocked....so now I email Zucker at NBC.

[Marie26]

274. Sorry, they've shut down

his email address, and Countdown's email address. I started having second thoughts anyway - while searching for the email, I learned that it was shut down because KO would send insulting/expletive-laden emails to his critics. And started hitting on female viewers via email? EW. EW. What an idiot. Oh, well. Looks like you scared him off! :)

[femrap]

282. Wow...are you kidding me???

Mother of God....his success has gone to his head.

Well...I'm encouraged. I guess lots of other women must have been pissed too! Keith can't handle the heat!

You can take the broadcaster out of ESPN, but you can't take the ESPN out of the broadcaster.

[bjnumb9]

278. Oh give me a break!

You are ranting on and on about sexism and then you throw this gem out there -

"May he (Keith O.) never get fucked again..."

Okay, this is about as sexist as it gets. You are implying that men are like junkies who either "get" their fix or have it withheld from them.

From wikipedia's entry on the term "prostitution," which I referenced after reading an earlier post in this thread:

"One feminist argument is that prostitution, insofar as it colludes with the perception of an inherent 'need' on the part of men for sexual release, is exploiting men more than it exploits women."

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prostitution

Please practice what you preach! Please refrain from the Holier than Thou angle from this point on!

[femrap]

285. hey bj...I say the same thing to women.

You don't think women like sex? I think that 'sex junkie' thing is your idea.

You are such a little man...yelling and stomping about 'refrain from the Holier than Thou angle from this point on!' Yes sir. :rofl:

Go yak about prostitution somewhere else...why don't you wiki patriarchy? Go read a book about gender roles. Better yet..go away.

You may just need some therapy...you bring up 1. men are known as sex junkies. 2. Prostitution. 3. Preaching and holiness!!! RED FLAG RED FLAG!!! Lots of Freudian crap going on there...plus you name of 'bj????'

[bjnumb9]

287. You are the most sexist person I've come across on DU.

Yet you think you're entitled to hate men and further entitled to blatantly show it. You find it perfectly okay to say that I am such "a little man," but if I were to say so much as you are an angry woman, which you are, then you will castigate me as being sexist.

It goes both ways.

[femrap]

305. Well, I certainly hope you get as upset and vocal when

you hear grown women referred to as 'girls.' And of course I'm angry...why don't you read up on patriarchy and you might just find out why, OK? You are just a result of your culture...and blindly accept all the propaganda and conditioning.

So go read up on the topic and learn....evolve. Until such time, you are ignored.

Oh, btw, I was being considerate calling you a 'little man.' Would you prefer 'boy?'

buh bye.

[bjnumb9]

307. You calling me a boy cannot bring me down one notch.

It takes a lot more than that, by a long shot. I am well aware of patriarchy. I've read The Handmaid's Tale. And I'm not presenting that as some kind of Golden Ticket but only to let you know that I am not ignorant and I am not ill-informed. I was born in South Carolina, raised in Tennessee, and I found my way to the Democratic party. I have "evolved" quite a bit, actually.

My statement remains. It is my opinion that you cannot effectively challenge sexist behavior while you yourself exhibit it. Denigrating men does not solve anything and really nullifies the rest of your argument.

Peace.

[demo dutch]

236. This country has got HUGE gender issues! and it ain't pretty! Quit frankly I'm shocked at what's

going on here a DU, we're supposed to be the party of tolerance

[Beausoir]

300. I knew it was bad. I had no inkling it was this bad. Especially here at DU.

We've got a long way to go.

[Plausible]

246. Sad and ashamed

that this gender bias lives and thrives in America. England had queens in past centuries. Many other countries have had or do have women leaders.

Does it reflect control issues? Some people---men and women---can't handle a woman holding power.

Our society perpetuates it, anything to sell pills, etc.

Of course,old white men have been doing such a wonderful job running the world. No one asks, should a person who thinks about sex every three seconds but can't get any, have his finger on the button?

[Auntie Bush]

254. I hope so too but some will never even see it.

Some will be a lot more guilty than others.

[susanr516]

261. Thank you

This sexist bs has infuriated me.

On the bright side, I'm once again just as militantly feminist as I was back in the early 70s. I'm ready to fight for the ERA again. We are slightly more than 50% of the population. We are every race, every sexual orientation, every econonic class. We deserve equal treatment, equal pay, equal respect. I have a name. It is not Honey, nor Baby, nor Darling. My name is Susan. USE IT. I have a right to express the same range of emotions as any man, without my gender being an issue.

Damn, we're ALL human beings. How long do women have to put up with this crap?

[bjnumb9]

283. Some of the most blatant sexism I've seen on this site

Is in this thread and is being flouted by those who pretend to denounce it at the same time.

Two quotes:

"I don't even watch the news anymore...it's too frustrating...nothing but a bunch of propaganda. And don't tell me that Keith hasn't been told he can keep his 'Special Comments' as long as the last 15 minutes trashes women. May he never get fucked again... "
– femrap

"But my experience with all the -isms and -ists is that they feel threatened. And being small and insecure, they attack what frightens them. And sometimes I just sit back and imagine how small their dicks must be."
- cbayer

In both cases the poster's are playing off of male stereotypes that are very condescending and sexist. Femrap's post portrays a male in the light that he NEEDS sex, that he is some type of junkie that must get his fix. Cbayer boils the male down to his penis, and relates it to size, like a man's character can be measured by the size of his sexual organ.

These are THE most blatantly sexist posts that I have seen on DU. I do not have many posts under my belt but I have been visiting this site and these forums since 2003. And the issue of this post stands regardless of whether you think someone with few posts is worth addressing.

My request is that the many, many people who have remarked on the unfortunate sexism that has hit these boards regarding Hillary also recognize that flipping the sexism around is not acceptable. Thank you and please keep this in mind.

[miceelf]

297. ???

Was it sexist when the MSM pretty much wrote off Howard Dean as being too emotional?

[avrdream]

308. "I hope, one day some of you will wake up and be very fucking ashamed and embarrassed."

Unlikely, but thanks for trying.

[texshelters]

327. Wow!

I missed the mysogonistic language, but I'm sure it's there. However, I do not support Clinton. I wish there was a different woman to vote for. I disagree with Senator Clinton on many things and don't feel she would be a good President. Write a conplaint or block those messages and do us all a service.

Napolitano in 2012!

Tex Shelters