Thanks Again, Nader!

[Jack_Dawson]

:hi:

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/4569835 /

Ralph Nader may have been abandoned by some of his celebrity backers, railed against in Democratic Party circles and skewered on late night TV, but the consumer advocate still packs a powerful punch with young voters. According to the latest NEWSWEEK and Newsweek.com Genext poll, the feisty Nader, widely blamed for Al Gore’s defeat in the 2000 election, drew twice the support among voters aged 18-29 as he did in a comparable poll of all registered voters. The groundswell of youth support could mean good news for Nader, and perhaps more significantly, for President George W. Bush.

[aldian159]

1. yep, don't you love the man

and his starry-eyed ignorant followers?

[Jack_Dawson]

2. Well...Bush sure loves him

He has to be getting paid by the GOP. There is really no other plausible explanation.

[buddy22600]

3. Whst the hell is wrong with Nader?

Lets donate to the libertarian party to draw votes from bush

[aldian159]

4. I think Paul Begala said it best

I don't like Paul, but I agree with what he said.

Paraphrasing: "I hope everyone who voted for Nader is happy. Their votes prevented a man who could have been the best environmental president from winning. Now, because of their votes for Nader, the worst environmental president is in power."

[klook]

8. That's assuming Nader voters would have voted for Gore

if Ralph wasn't running. I think plenty of them would have stayed home in 2000.

[Ediacara]

19. Perhaps just 1/3 of them would have

But at least 1/2 of Nader's voters would have voted for Gore if Nader would not have run. The remaining 1/6 would probably have voted Green or some other left-wing party.

If half of Nader's voters had gone to Gore, especially in New Hampshire and Florida, Gore would have won without a doubt.

[no name no slogan]

80. What about the 30,000 FL Dems who voted for BUSH?

Why all the uproar about Nader's votes, when 30,000 Democratic Floridians voted for Shrub instead of Gore?

You want to be angry, that's your right. But don't forget that Nader is not the one to blame for Gore's loss. That is strictly Gore's fault, and nobody elses.

[buff2]

6. Yes.......

Ralph Nader is in bed with the GOP. The only reason he's doing this is to make sure bu$h gets back in. Those people that will vote for Nader should just go ahead and vote for bu$h and get it over with. Stupid,stupid people.

[forgethell]

13. Sure there is

RN is an egotistical, bull-headed man who thinks he's right and is willing to take down the whole house to get his day in the sun.

[Sandpiper]

5. I suppose some comfort can be taken

In the fact that Nader polls highest among the group least likely to vote.

[Feanorcurufinwe]

9. And it is not a coincidence

that it is also the group that is the least well-informed.

[ant]

7. heh

I guess it makes people feel better to bash Nader, but I don't see what it actually accomplishes.

Does Kerry have a plan for reaching out to young voters? If so, is this article a reflection of the fact that it's not working? If not, is this a sign that he should get one? (That is a huge untapped block of voters after all. No one seems to care much about them until they jump over to some other candidate.) Is it better for Kerry supporters to sit around pissing and moaning about Nader or is it better for them to get to work on their own strategies for winning these voters back?

I guess the former leaves more room for passing the buck should Kerry lose. "It's all Nader's fault! Since we didn't actually DO ANYTHING we can't be blamed!" Convenient, I guess.

[Jack_Dawson]

10. We can't afford to waste votes on vanity candidates - not this time

the stakes are too high. The world literally hangs in the balance. I'm sure Kerry is working hard to reach out to all age groups. Snowboarding is a good start.

[klook]

12. A vote for Nader is a vote against Osama bin Laden

...or is a vote for Nader a vote for Hitler? I have trouble remembering.

Maybe a vote for Nader is a vote for Nader. Or a vote for "None of the above."

[IrateCitizen]

14. Well, you're absolutely right, of course...

Just don't expect the message to sink in to those whose responses are founded entirely in emotion. Their emotion on this one issue has blinded them to the reason that you espouse in your post.

[blondeatlast]

44. Hardly emotion; it's pragmatic. I'm a Kucinich supporter who has no

illusions about his chances. I want him heard at the convention, but he couldn't win in November if it was given to him as it was with Bush. I'm not blinded by emotion--if I'm blinded by anything, it's the sheer will to see that this country be rescued from the pretenders to the throne.

There is evil in the White House, and Nader helped put it there. This campaign is more dangerous than 2000--we know exactly what the stakes are this time, and exactly what we are up against. Four more years of this and we won't be discussing this on a message board.

We'll be lamenting what went wrong when we are all in Gitmo.

[IrateCitizen]

11. Dupe thread -- did you post this in every other forum as well?

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=104x1272575

[Jack_Dawson]

15. Nah - just those two

First GD, then I remembered about GDC'04 - my bad. Lock me up.

[IrateCitizen]

16. Well, since the average Nader thread takes up...

... at least 35% of available DU bandwidth, I figured it might be prudent to contain the 5-day hate to ONE thread. ;-)

But then again, I'm not a mod -- so it's not my call.

[ulysses]

42. heh

at least 35% of available DU bandwidth

and at least 80% of available oxygen...

[IrateCitizen]

73. Actually, I think they use very little oxygen...

Because very little oxygen seems to be reaching the brains of the majority of combatants involved. :evilgrin:

[MadHound]

17. I find it funny that people around here blame Nader for the '00 debacle

And yet the DLC's own Al From doesn't. "The assertion that Nader's marginal vote hurt Gore is not borne out by polling data. When exit pollers asked voters how they would have voted in a two-way race, Bush actually won by a point. That was better than he did with Nader in the race." <http://www.ndol.org/ndol_ci.cfm?kaid=127&subid=179&contentid=2919>

Nor do these people put any blame on the nearly 600,000 registered Dems and self described liberals who decided to double screw Gore(over a disagreement to drill in the Gulf waters off of Florida) and voted for Bush.

Nor do these selfsame people put any blame on the Gore campain. Even though it displayed incredible stupidity in choosing the least advantageous method of recounting the Florida votes(if Gore had a statewide recount done, his legal right, he would have won, instead at the behest of his handlers he cherry picked what he wanted recounted).

Nor do they blame Gore himself for forswearing his oath of office to protect and uphold the Constitution. Greg Palast, in early November '01, handed Gore the voter disenfranchisement scandal on a silver platter. Names, numbers, places, it was all there. Think about it, Gore had the means with which to not only win the election right then, but to also banish the Bushes out to the political wilderness forever, not to mention upholding his sworn oath. And yet Gore sat on this bombshell. Why?

Nor does there seem to be any blame allotted to the Supreme Court Five in this matter, even though they made the actual selection.

Nope, apparently to the Nader Haters, it is all Ralph's fault. A man who couldn't even garner three percent of the vote brought the electorial process to it's knees and instralled the Bushco administration:eyes:

Get over it people, your foolish obcession is becoming alarmingly compulsive.

[Jack_Dawson]

18. Nader cost the Dems Florida and New Hampshire

Don't take my word for it, look at the votes. When you lose a state by 500+ votes, Nader screwed you.

[IrateCitizen]

20. And assuming that the same scenario COULD happen again...

Please tell me exactly what the incessant bitching and moaning about Ralph Nader will do to prevent it from happening again?

[Jack_Dawson]

21. Venting is healthy

If people don't vent, they go crazy and kill themselves, and that is one less vote.

[Padraig18]

22. No, BUSH cost us FL!

The voter purges, people being turned away at polling places, Cruella Harris' insistence on certifying the vote as soon as the Felonious Five permitted it, the incompetent campaign Donna Brazille ran, etc., were ALL more factors in our losing FL than Ralph Nader was.

As for NH, there is no evidence whatsoever that those Nader voters would have voted for Gore/voted at ALL had Nader not been running...

[Jack_Dawson]

23. Oh C'mon Padraig

Don't be so naive :eyes:

Who else would the Naderites have voted for? Bush? Please.

[Padraig18]

25. I'm not naive.

You're assuming that they would automatically have voted for Gore is equally naive, if they had even bothered to vote at all. :eyes:

[Jack_Dawson]

26. Out of 90,000 votes,

I'm sure 600 would've voted for Gore, yes.

[Padraig18]

27. I'm not.

I have yet to meet a single Democrat who did an 'eeny, meeny, miney, moe' in 2000, vis a vis Gore or Nader. Secondly, we have no 'claim' on those votes, and to continue blaming Nader for Gore's loss is dangerously myopic, and ignores the fundamental problem with the theft of FL-- the Bush junta, which remains in place and stronger than it was in 2000.

Think about that.

[Jack_Dawson]

30. The Junta was a factor - so was Nader

Nader didn't exactly "help" things.

[Padraig18]

32. Why should he have helped?

It's a free country, and he's entitled to run. We didn't beat him---that's not HIS fault.

[MadHound]

40. Actually, they might just have voted for Bush

That, or not voted at all. Did you read the link to Al From's article? Looks like Bush would have done better in the race without Nader being in, so gee, Nader was pulling in some 'Pug votes.

But what gets me about the Nader Haters is that they refuse to blame any of the other real culprits that I've mentioned, including the Gore campaign itself. It is all just Nader, Nader, Nader. Puhleeze, the man pulled less than three percent of the vote, not even enough for federal matching funds.

Get real and appropriate the blame for the '00 where it belongs. Mindless Nader hate blinds you to the fault within our own party, and hence does not allow us to correct our mistakes

[Jack_Dawson]

46. Bwahahahaha!

C'mon man. Now you're just talking crazy. And Al From has a crystal ball the rest of us don't? Is he the word of God? Nader's spoiling of the 2000 campaign is well documented. I don't know why he has so many apologists.

[MadHound]

47. No, I'll tell you what's crazy

And that is blaming the '00 debacle on Nader and ignoring the reality of the situation. Gee, did Nader force those 600,000 registered Dems and self described liberals to vote for Bush? No, Gore did. Did Nader decide to go with the losing recount strategy? No, Gore and his handlers did. Did Nader refuse to bust open the votescam scandal after he knew about it? No, Gore did. Did Nader select Bush for the office of the presidency? No, that would be the Supreme Court Five.

Face it, you can stick your head in the sand, blame Nader all that you wish, but the biggest enemy that Gore had in the 2000 campaign was Gore himself. How can you continue to blame a candidate that pulled less than three percent of the vote? Nader pulled aprox. 90,000 votes in FL, yet when Gore sucked up to his corporate masters at BP for offshore drilling in the Gulf, he threw away 600,000 votes.

And no, From doesn't have a crystal ball, just one of the best polling crews in the business.

But hey, it's your head, stick it in the sand if you wish. But all that will do is prevent you from seeing the real dangers ahead. But apparently your used to not seeing reality anyway.

[Jack_Dawson]

48. "Crazy" is Either/Or thinking

By saying Nader fucked up the last election, I'm not exactly going out on a limb here. If THE NATION is imploring Nader not to run this go-round, it's probably because it's well-documented that he took votes away from from the Dems on the LAST go-round.

But my indictment of Nader isn't to say Gore didn't have his own missteps - of course he did, but that's a separate issue. We could talk about THOSE all day, and we'd probably be in agreement.

But if you look at the numbers and numbers alone, if Nader hadn't run in 2000, Gore would be president. It's not about sticking your head in the sand - it's about addition and subtraction.

[MadHound]

49. Rather foolish to go with the mass stampede arguement friend

Hell, the majority of people in this country thought that Iraq had WMD, that it was perfectly fine to pre-emptively invade a sovereign country, and that Saddam Hussein was behind 911. The majority of people in this country are easily fooled and can be herded like sheep.

And it isn't certain that if Nader wasn't in the race, that Gore would have automatically gotten those votes. Some came off of Republicans, some came off of Democrats, some were previously non-voters, others were diehard Greens. You cannot say with ANY certainty that even ten percent of those votes would have wound up in Gore's pocket.

Besides, even if they all wound up for Gore, it probably wouldn't have mattered. The whole Florida scam was wired from the get go. It was where the 'Pugs were going to steal the election. Do you remember that night in November. I certainly do, and one of the things I remember clearly is that on NBC when Florida was called for Gore, Brokaw did a human interest blurb on the Bushes. Apparently when George HW, Barb, Jeb and family were sitting down to a late dinner, the NBC call came on, and according to the waiter and nearby diners, the Bush party got up with an expletive and Jeb Bush calling "That can't be, that's not right" and rushed out of the restraunt. I knew right then that the Bushes had rigged Florida.

So what I'm saying here is that while yes, theoretically if Nader hadn't been in the election, Gore should have won Florida. But it is insane to give his role such prominence that some of the Nader Haters around here do. If Florida hadn't been rigged from the get-go,if the Supreme Court Five hadn't made the selection, if Gore hadn't run an abysmal recount, if Gore had pursued the vote scam scandal, if Gore hadn't pissed off 600,000 potential votes, then Nader's run would be the make or break factor that Nader Haters like to assign it. But not until then. And there are a lot more problems that the Dems have to worry about than Nader, for quite frankly, he is just a symptom.

[Jack_Dawson]

55. So are we "Crazy" or "Foolish"?

You know, I really am listening to your arguments. You sound intelligent enough, but your incessant namecalling seems kind of Freeper-ish. Just make your point and move on.

Now...I wasn't at that restaurant with Jeb, so I can't really can't don my tinfoil hat on that one.

As for Nader, I can say with STATISTICAL certainty, that if he hadn't run, Gore would be President. Is he the only reason Gore isn't President? No. Would Bush be President if Nader hadn't run? Also no.

[blondeatlast]

51. Gore won the popular and electoral vote.

Perhaps you missed the news that evening.

[JVS]

29. Padraig, don't you know that everything is the fault of the left?

[flpoljunkie]

31. No. Ralph Nader's 97,488 FL votes were the problem. No Ralph, no problem.

End of discussion.

[Padraig18]

33. Hardly the 'end of discussion'.

Care to talk about the incompetent campaign Donna Brazille cobbled together? Care to talk about purging voter rolls? Care to talk about voters being truned away at the polls? Care to talk about butterfly ballots and Jews for Buchannan voters? Care to talk about the Felonious Five?

:eyes:

[JVS]

35. No way. If those issues were discussed then we might have to change our..

ways of doing things. It is much easier to blame things that are beyond our control.

[Padraig18]

38. Heh

True. God forbid we should look at the root corruption that is the Bush junta in the state of Florida, or the fact that it is stronger now than it was in 2004.

[flpoljunkie]

36. But for Ralph Nader's 97,488 Florida votes, Gore would have won big and NO

need for any recounts!

[Padraig18]

37. You can't know that.

None of us have a 'if only' crystal ball that peers into a mythical future.

[flpoljunkie]

39. It is a fact that Ralph Nader received 97,488 votes in Florida.

Case closed. No need for any crystal ball.

Ralph also said he would not do any last minute campaigning in any states that were too close to call--yet he did just that!

[Padraig18]

43. No 'case closed'.

You don't *KNOW* that a single one of those voes would have Gone to Gore, nor can you prove it.

[flpoljunkie]

53. Check out this link, Padraig. Excerpt below. Info comes from exit polling

http://www.mikehersh.com/printer_Did_Nader_Help_or_Hurt_Al_Gore.shtml

Gore won Florida by all fair, full vote counts. However, Nader's "spoiler" efforts there - culminating in his last-ditch, last minute campaign swings - handed Bush the White House by drawing enough votes to cost Gore a clear victory.

Nader pulled a net estimated 22,422 votes from Gore. That turned a Gore 21,885 vote win into the "official" 537 vote "loss." Gore lost New Hampshire (by 7,211 votes, 1.3%). Nader took triple that margin.

Gore would have won Florida's 25 electoral votes - and probably New Hampshire's 4 - if Nader hadn't run, or if he hadn't run intentionally helping Bush. Either state's electoral votes added to Gore's 266 "official" total would have given Gore enough to win the White House - 270 (with New Hampshire's) 291 (with Florida's) or 295 with both.

Nader intentionally helped Bush by forcing Gore's campaign to expend scarce resources defending several states carried by Dukakis / Benson and Clinton / Gore from 1988-1996 - including New Mexico, Wisconsin, Iowa, Oregon, Minnesota, Pennsylvania, Maine, Michigan, and Washington. Nader's campaign turned these solid Gore states into swing states. Gore won hard-fought races in all of them - and in Florida - but defending them cost Gore decisively elsewhere.

[Jack_Dawson]

57. Padraig - Have you heard of the "Law of Averages"?

I can flip a coin 100 times and while I don't "know" it will always be tails, it WILL NOT always be tails.

Are you really going with that "you don't know" argument? LOL

[Cuban_Liberal]

65. Actually, he makes a good point that is still being ignored.

It was NOT Nader who cost us Florida, it was the Gore campaign itself, combined with the criminal actions of the Bush regime in Florida.

Had Donna Brazille not run the most incompetent campaign in modern memory, Nader would have been a statistical anomoly, a mere footnote in American political history. Had SOS Harris not purged the voter rolls, had qualified minority voters not been turned away at the polls, had a statewide recount been conducted, etc., Gore WOULD have won, Nader or not.

It is simply intellectualy dishonest to blame Ralph Nader for the coup d' etat of 2000.

[Hav]

66. well not exactly

It is intellectually dishonest to blame Nader alone for 2000.
He played a role among many factors.
But when I see numbers here that 600000 Dems voted for Bush and add to that the partisan Supreme Court and the fact that Gore won both the popular vote and electoral college, then Nader had by far not the greatest impact.
He might have played a role in some states, that is true, but making it appear as if he alone is responsible is as wrong as saying he played no role at all.

[Cuban_Liberal]

68. Exactly.

Those who do not wish to take an honest look at the multiple factors involved jump on the 'Blame Nader' bandwagon. They also ignore the close states that Gore WON at least in part due to the presence of Pat Buchannan on the ballot. I think it is dangerous for us to heap all the blame on Nader, because the mindset that makes that thought possible is the same mindset that is fully capable of being blind-sided yet again this November.

[no name no slogan]

81. What about 30,000 FL Dems who voted for BUSH?

What if they had stayed true to the party and voted for Gore? Certainly makes that paltry 600 seem even more trivial than before, doesn't it?

:shrug:

[Ficus]

34. Did Buchanan cost Bush states?

Oregon, Iowa, New Mexico, and Wisconsin? That case can certainly be made too.

Just throwing that out there. Before I get flamed, it's sad I gotta say this, but ABB.

[cprise]

41. That's too much logic for them to handle

They don't want logic or even a multiparty democracy; they just want an easy target to hate when they fail.

[Ficus]

45. I was a frustrated DK supporter

but to try to bring down good Democrats is wrong. I see no logic in that either.

[Nimble_Idea]

54. Don't forget New Mexico

With both NH, and NM we wouldn't be close to Judgement day like we are now.

[dsc]

28. Frum is an idiot

and yes I have consistently said that.

[blondeatlast]

50. Yeah, the DLC is SOOOOOOOOOOO popular at DU.

Puh-leeze; :eyes:

[Hav]

24. .

Well, maybe Nader could do his part to finally make Bush implode.
He doesn't seem to be someone who would holds it back.
I hope that he will support the Dem in November, though.

[blondeatlast]

52. I hope I win a million in the lottery, too.

He's running for vanity (I hope).

And I didn't buy a ticket.

[Fleshdancer]

56. why can't we assess why these people prefer Nadar over the Dem. Party?

I don't want Nadar to run for President either but come on people...how many times does our party have to splinter before we stop blaming other people and actually look at what we're doing wrong?

Hate Nadar all you want, but that doesn't fix the damn problem. Bitching isn't going to solve anything.

[Jack_Dawson]

58. Pukes are Disciplined, WE are not

The Republicans say "Let's just get elected and THEN we'll work out our internal squabbles."

WE say, "Let's splinter the party FIRST, and THEN try to get elected."

When you're being outsmarted by Freepers, it's pretty embarrassing.

[Hippo_Tron]

60. Not 100% true...

Republicans may be more united than us at this point but there are many of them that are very fed up with chimp. Unfortunately, there are no candidates running 3rd party on the other side that get any national media attention.

[Jack_Dawson]

61. Who are the fed-up ones?

I only know the anything-*-says-is-God's-word crowd

[Hav]

64. .

For example those who prefer a "conservative" fiscal policy (McCain I think..).

[blondeatlast]

67. I've no bone with Nader voters, only with Nader himself.

The US is in serious trouble right now. Nader knows it as well as anyone. We must defeat the current administration, or we will be having this discussion in Gitmo 2 years from now.

Nader is the problem, not his voters. It is at best ill-advised for him to run now, at worst, deliberately disruptive.

The stakes are too high, and if Nader cares about the good of the country, he should drop out now.

[Colin Ex]

59. Yeah! Go Two Minutes Hate!

Oooo!

-C

[Andromeda]

62. Ben Stein, the Repug's celebrity,

gave $1K to Bush and $500 to Nader. I'll bet lots and lots of Repugs are giving to Nader's campaign.

[genius]

63. Kerry is Nader's best friend. Opposing Chavez gives votes to Nader

Kerry needs to start supporting Hugo Chavez, the most progressive and honorable democratically-elected leader on the planet.

[Cuban_Liberal]

69. Reality check for Table 3, please.

:wtf:

[zulchzulu]

70. Kerry's speech in support of Hugo Chavez

"Hi, I'm John Kerry. I'm here to tell you why I support Hugo Chavez.

He's doing a fantastic job. 80% of the population live in third-world poverty. 65% of those people make the minimum wage of $150 or less per month. I'm proud to announce that I enjoy his successes with his people being taken care of, namely that 36% live on less than $1 a day. With the fact that the basic monthly food basket for a family of 5 costs about $300, you can bet they must be pretty creative in their makeshift cardboard huts in the barrio. Lots of ways to fry dog and rats, so I have been told.

Venezuela can brag about its 30% unemployment rate too, thanks to our friend Hugo!

It was great that 18,000 state oil firm Petroleos de Venezuela workers who went on strike were fired by Chavez, who replaced them with soldiers and loyal personnel. Union busting and replacing the workers with your military and yes men is a priniciple all Democrats should espouse. Now that's what I call a leader.

Heck, if Hugo Chavez wants to stop selling oil to the US and causing a lot of economic damage to the country so he and Fidel can have a few chuckles, then, by golly, go for it, Hugo! Vaya para él, Hugo!"

(posted from other thread, but thought it's relevant here)

[genius]

82. The people of Venezuela love Chavez. They're the reason he's still there

Kerry needs to start backing democratically-elected leaders or he'll start looking a little too much like Bush. BTW, the anti-Chavez posting is the nonsense the corporations have been spouting off as they want to end democracy in Venezuela. If a person lets Enron do their thinking, they won't like Chavez.

[Hav]

83. .

Do you think that Kerry should back every democratically elected leader?

[Cuban_Liberal]

84. The people of Venezuela gathered the 2.4 million signatures...

... to hold the referendum that Chavez and his cronies are trying to block. If the people love Chavez so much, why not just let the referendum go forward? :eyes:

[CTLawGuy]

71. Kerry is "electable"

he'll be fine...

[GreenPartyVoter]

72. Too bad the dems haven't fought to boost Dennis more

Ralph would never have thrown his hat in the ring if Dennis was the frontrunner.

[Padraig18]

75. And if my uncle had tits, he'd be my aunt.

The voters chose the candidate they wanted; it wasn't my guy, and it isn't your guy. Suck it up and move on, OK? :)

[lams712]

74. Kerry and the Demo leadership need to take these...

....numbers to heart and reach out to these cynical young voters. Give them some hope for God's sake. Don't bash Nader but work to reduce his threat. What's so hard about that???



STOP THE NADER BASHING!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[Robb]

76. Don't bash, work.

Spot on. :thumbsup:

I agree it's absurd to "blame" Nader for 2000; the trouble is, it's one of the parts of that campaign season that's easy to wrap your head around. "If Nader hadn't run" is easier to think about than "if the Gore campaign had been more effective in _____".

"Nader not running" has numbers attached to it; the other is more qualitative. Nader's votes that could have been Gore votes are only a partial count of the votes that could have been had under various scenarios. Nader voters get the ass end of the argument, because it seemed so close.

Which, I should add, does not (IMO) let Nader off the hook for campaigning in "close" states so near to the end, something he promised (as another poster pointed out) not to do. And frankly the more honorable goals I want to believe led Nader to his run this year could have been achieved in a number of less divisive ways. Nader didn't need to run for president to get airtime. So I'm afraid that I have to question his motives.

[WoodrowFan]

77. the New Swing Voter (cartoon, WARNING may be offensive)

read the artist's statement (he vote Kuchnich in the primary)

http://users.jagunet.com/~disrael/weekly040324a.htm

[ACK]

78. Offensive? That is funny as hell.

Ha.

:7

[WoodrowFan]

79. i thought so too

but I thought any lingering Nadarites might take offense...

but DAMN it's FUNNY!