Obama just nails Ralph Nader in Ohio

[Colobo]

"8 years ago, he didn't think there was any difference between GWB and Al Gore, and now, 8 years later, it's clear he didn't know what he was talking about." -Barack Obama

[fenriswolf]

1. Nice one Obama.

[Tellurian]

31. Is that the best Obama could do against Nader?

The same routine he uses against Hillary.. How presidential!

Nader and McCain will chew him up and spit him out!

[fenriswolf]

33. i think its very relevant to anyone who is going to vote Nader

in 2000 they knew they were throwing their vote away. Also Nader did run on that platform that the two were the same. I think today alot of people would agree a gore presidency would have been alot different from the one we know today. Please stop letting your despair show.

[Tellurian]

210. Obama couldn't nail anyone with both hands and a hammer!

unless someone gave him a script and a teleprompter telling him what to say. Just like Bush!

[defendandprotect]

218. Well. . . . not like Bush . . . who after all needed an earpiece and someone transmitting

information help for his replies in debates !!!

[jakem]

43. what makes you think that Nader and Mccain will 'chew him up'

when he has buried the clintons inevitability train?


maybe he does use ' the same routine'

...seems to have worked, eh?

[electropop]

200. McCain would need some strong denture glue for that.

[nookiemonster]

51. Comedy, perhaps, is not your strong suit.

Stick to bitterness, you're quite good at it.

Post pooper.

[Stuckinthebush]

54. That is silly

Nader has no chance of "chewing him up and spitting him out".

It also seems that Hillary has had a hard time doing that as well.

You can forget McCain...he's not really up to the chewing up and spitting out routine. Obama will continue to show people that he represents the future not the past. Old McCain won't be able to keep up.

[BobRossi]

62. And Hillarious said what?

[Capn Sunshine]

70. Gawd.

You are the most pathetic poster in all of DU. Hands down.

[Blue State Bandit]

72. Error induced dupe. Self deleted.

[Blue State Bandit]

73. No venom, just truth. That's Presidential!

[Blue Fire]

76. Won't that be a little too much for the ol' farts dentures?

(You can pick the ol' fart of your choice!)

[Nedsdag]

78. Gee!

I didn't know mental patients in straight jackets could type.

Is it lobotomy time?

[cosmic _mind]

79. You forgot Lee Mercer Jr.!

He will chew them up and spit them out (all three)!

[RoadRage]

81. Ironically - if Hillary would have said those exact same words

You would have started your own OP to discuss how great she is, and how "she" is the only one who can topple Nader.

Blahh.. Blahh.. Blahh. It's tough for you right now, isn't it?

[geiger]

184. Too bad her campaign seems to consistently be a day and a dollar behind.

She's still in candidate mode; he's already acting like a President.

[sellitman]

86. Just like Hillary is spitting Obama out too I presume ?

You are undaunted, I will give you that.

[BringBigDogBack]

89. Good to see you.

I'm just kidding, of course.

[Kittycat]

99. Still promoting that gutter-politics site I see?

Really, desperation doesn't suit you

[smoogatz]

103. Nader got .38% in '04.

Yep, Obama's got something to worry about now!

[defendandprotect]

176. Except . . . it seems that it's the Democrats who fear this supposed "boogie man" . .

Who gave you this "boogie man" . . . think about it!

You so fear an interference by third party candidates . . .
what have you done in the interim --- since 2000 to push for remedies so that we can
have barriers against third parties lifted and IRV -- Instant Runoff Voting --- ???

What have Democrats who gave you this "strawman" done for you to protect you from him?
NOTHING . . .

Because what Repugs and Dems mainly want to do is keep any third party at bay -- so that you
will really have no other choice but a corporate candidate --- and that you will SEE NO EVIL, AND HEAR NO EVIL . . . which would harm them!!!

Wake up!!

[smoogatz]

178. True or false:

1.There was no difference between Gore and Bush in 2000 (both "corporate"!).

2.Nader did not effectively act as a spoiler in 2000, throwing the election to Bush.

3.Nader and his dumbass supporters do not bear a significant portion of the blame for the last seven years of misrule by Bush and Cheney.

4.Nader and his dumbass supporters aren't just as wrong this time around.

If you answered "true" to any of the above, you are dumber than a sack of doorknobs. My advice: get the shoes with the velcro, because all that lace-tying is out of your league.

[Name removed]

183. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[smoogatz]

190. Bingo!

You're a dumbass, all right. Enjoy your brief and pointless stay on DU.

[JustDavid]

199. You are right....

the dem candidates do not appeal to people like you and cannot win your votes.

They have to settle for 99.9% of the rest.

hmmmm....thats a tough one......appeal to .1% or appeal to 99.9%.

[D23MIURG23]

201. 2. is definitely an oversimplification.

Nader is more of a convenient scapegoat than a prime factor for Gore's 2000 defeat. Without the media trivializing election coverage (this is what made the "dime" myth credible in the first place), the corrupt SCOTUS decision that they won't even acknowledge as prescedent, the voter disenfranchisement in Fla, and Gore's failure to even carry his home state, Nader would have been a non-issue. Nader didn't do the Gore campaign any favors, but I have to balk at people who want to flay him for his 2% of the vote.

If you want to see a real spoiler check out Perot in '92. He is the decisive reason Clinton made it into office..

[DLnyc]

211. Nader pulled 90,000 votes in Florida in 2000.

Surveys generally show significantly more Nader voters would go Dem than Rep, if there were no Nader choice. So the point is not a 'convenient scapegoat' thing so much as a verifiable reality thing.

Yes, Perot did Clinton a huge favor by syphoning off Bush voters. Perot apparently had a serious grudge against Bush I and was quite clear what he was doing and why. Can't say the same for Nader, though. It's not at all clear that he understands that he's doing the Repubs a (small, not huge) favor or, if he does understand, why he would do that.

[D23MIURG23]

215. Nader is God of his own sad little world IMO.

His ego (and perhaps senility at this point) are causing him to compulsively defecate on his otherwise respectable resume as a public policy advocate.

I'm not disputing the fact that Nader played a verifiable role in Bush's 2000 unvictory. I just see him as one of many contributing factors to that defeat rather than a single decisive one. People often talk about Nader as though he is thee reason Gore lost, and I think that is simplistic and exaggerated.

[DLnyc]

216. Yes, many factors, including DLC cluelessness, right-wing smear-jobs,

media bias, Republican money advantage and other things made it close. But for Nader to continue campaigning in Florida--a known competitive swing-state--after other things had made it close, was either stupid or intentionally vicious.

Not THE reason, but in some ways the nail in the coffin, IMHO.

[D23MIURG23]

193. I understand your point, but Nader isn't helping.

Third parties aren't going to take off by making doomed long-shot runs at the presidency in the first place.

Any third party that is going to be viable needs to be able to channel the wealth of public dissatisfaction with the current system into a grassroots movement that builds the party from the bottom up. It will also need a sustained effort to get members elected in state and local governments.

[Scriptor Ignotus]

104. that routine is working fairly well against Hillary, no? -nt

[earthlover]

108. Au contraire, Tellurian....Nader said there wasn't any difference between Gore and Bush

He WAS wrong then, did not know the fuck what he was talking about.

Furthermore, because of Nader's continued campaigning in Florida, this is the only reason why Florida was close enough to even worry about what a hanging chad was! The reason we have had 8 years of Bush-Tatorship is Ralph Nader. Thanks for nothing, Ralph!

Tellurian has said in another board to support nader if Dear Hillary does not get the nod. I find this preposterous. Obama is MUCH closer to Hillary's stands on the issues than Nader is.

The only thing I can conclude is that Tellurian really hasn't thunk this thru....

Does Tellurian really want McCain? If she thinks voting for someone who cannot win is justified and she likes Nader, why on earth didn't she support Kucinich to start with? At least Kucinich is a true Democrat instead of a candidate sponsored by the right wing like Nader is.

[skepticscott]

117. Is this the same Nader

that pulled about 0.3% of the vote in 2004 and hasn't been heard from since? Maybe Obama should start worrying about Judge Roy Moore and the Constitution party too. And I hear the Prohibitionists are pretty mean SOBs too...

[RainDog]

119. yoohoo, tellurian...

[cali]

126. oh, and I don't know

He's getting ready to spit hilly up. He's chewed her up but good. You can have her back after he's done chewing her up.

[George II]

130. Figures SOMEONE here would find something wrong with Obama's comment...

...thankfully not too many people, but there's always a few in the bunch.

[Canuckistanian]

137. Is he wrong?

Do you think the modern voter is saying "Hmmm, Gore or Bush.. who would be the better president?"

I'm sure there are such people. But right now they're taking their meds and getting ready for lockdown.

[IndianaGreen]

138. Have you seen the polls? McCain whips Hillary's ass big time!

But he loses big against Obama!

[angie_love]

140. yeah i'm sure thats what you're hoping

keep going...you're just digging your own hole.

[DireStrike]

142. Not sure McCain has enough teeth to do that...

[ejbr]

143. I have nothing to add...

I just wanted to join the chain.


cheers.

[Pierogi_Pincher]

198. Have nothing to add either,

just wanted to get in on the friendly fracas. Na s'drovje.

"GoBama!"

[BearSquirrel2]

144. Nader is yesterday ...

We appreciate what Nader has done for consumer protection. I know that he is trying to help. But ... he isn't. He could have helped throw the 2000 election to Bush (along with Rove's dirty tricks and the Supreme Court).

All Nader is doing is playing the spoiler. At this point, he is politically irrelevant. I think by now everyone knows that he is the new Lyndon LaRouche.

[book_worm]

147. what a jackass comment.

[Alameda]

154. What he said is true

if I have a choice of being skinned, salted and boiled in oil....OR just skinned and boiled in oil....I'll take the later.

[ErnestoG]

167. Weak.

Wow, when the guy does good, he's damned. When he does better, he's damned.

[D23MIURG23]

173. .

[DRoseDARs]

174. Longest 3rd response branch EVAH!!1

Anyway, it was good enough: Clear and to the point. Obama didn't need to say anything else.

Note: I support neither Obama nor Hillary, but will vote whichever in the general election.

[Coexist]

2. this is one Nader thread I will not put on Igore - what a great quote!

wow. knr.

[Cha]

41. Obama spoke for

all Dems this time .. Ha!

[NC_Nurse]

3. Very clear.

He will fade quickly off the map this time. Nobody cares.

[Raven]

4. Perfect, just perfect! Nader needs to be made out to be the joke

he really is.

[Joe Bacon]

50. Hey is Ralph running as the candidate of the Birthday Party?

Why not, he's run on every other ticket!

[nookiemonster]

5. ZING!

nice...

[geiger]

185. zingety zing!

[Liberal Veteran]

6. Ouch. That's gonna leave a mark.

Gobama!

[saltpoint]

7. I was holding out hope that your subject line was a literal event.

Even so, Senator Obama handled this beautifully.

[Hand]

8. Game, set, and match to Obama!

[tekisui]

9. Perfect.

[Occam Bandage]

10. Nice line.

[stevenleser]

11. Kicked and recommended. Kick his BUTT Barack!

Thanks for Dumbya, the Iraq war and everything else Ralph you POS

[BleedingHeartPatriot]

12. A Sen. Clinton supporter here, saying,"Thank you Sen. Obama!" Way to fight back.

[Oceansaway]

13. TOUCHE !!..n/t

[sniffa]

14. Again I'm impressed with his rapid response team

Quick and deadly.

[SoFlaJet]

19. sniffa

where is the Clinton response on this? I wonder if they don't secretly LIKE the idea of Nader taking votes away from Obama-it plays right into their already brewing 2012 run should McCain win in '08

[still_one]

102. I think that is unfair, we should all agree on this. /by

[knowledgeispwr]

15. Nice!

I think this is something Clinton and Obama supporters can agree on!

[Scooter24]

16. Good one!

[nam78_two]

17. Excellent

[dailykoff]

18. Oh. Ouch. He told the truth and didn't grovel.

Misogynist!

[writes3000]

22. The majority of...

Clinton supporters do NOT cry "sexism" or "misogyny" when it's unwarranted. Maybe we should stop fanning those flames unnecessarily?

[Zodiak]

27. True

but bear in mind that the proportion of Obama supporters on DU who have been accused of it approaches 1.

People tend to react to what touches their own environment.

[dailykoff]

30. The allegations are going to stick

until November and beyond. They'll come up in the debates and in all sorts of little problems and attacks that dog Obama for as long as he's on the national stage. The Clintons have made sure of that unfortunately.

[earthlover]

110. You're right, the majority doesn't...but maybe 10% do, and they are obnoxious as hell!

[OPERATIONMINDCRIME]

20. Hehehehehe. Perfect Response!

[K Gardner]

21. That's my guy !! Gobama :-)

[Skidmore]

23. Absolutely!!! How do you like this war we're in, Ralphie?

How about the mess the economy is in? Huh? Ralph is a caricature of himself.

[DefenseLawyer]

24. Every time Nader speaks

you will hear him begging for money from Republicans. That's all you need to know about the current mindset of Mr. Nader.

[Danascot]

80. You have that right

"Republican presidential candidate Mike Huckabee, speaking shortly before Nader's announcement, said Nader's past runs have shown that he usually pulls votes from the Democrat. "So naturally, Republicans would welcome his entry into the race," the former Arkansas governor said on CNN."

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20080224/ap_on_el_pr/nader ;_ylt=Avl3.TluFhjFX02LALlbLb.s0NUE

[earthlover]

111. Huckabee is at least honest about it....good chuckle

[onehandle]

25. Duh. Obviously. Neither did anyone here who voted for Nader in 2000.

What the Hell were you thinking? We warned you for months and months.

[BleedingHeartPatriot]

26. That's the truth. We begged them, we knew Bush was going to be bad. Just had no idea how bad.

[skepticscott]

120. The Nader voters knew perfectly well what they were doing

Why else did the practice of vote-swapping crop up in the 2000 election, whereby people living in a state expected to have a close race but wanting to have a vote cast for Nader, would swap their Nader vote for the Gore vote of someone living in a “safe” state? This only happened because the Nader voters knew that: A. voting for Nader could hurt Gore and help Bush; and B. helping Bush was bad. No such practice sprung up among Republicans in 2000, as far as I know.

Ironically, those people, who so often complain that their vote no longer makes a difference, arranged to cast their vote precisely so it WOULDN’T make a difference. The rest of us just wish they'd been a little better at rendering themselves irrelevant.

[Berry Cool]

28. To say what Keith Olbermann may well say tomorrow night:

"Obama--from waaay downtown--BAAANG!"

In just thirty words, he wadded up and tossed Nader's whole campaign into a wastebasket.

That's verbal economy!

[MadBadger]

32. He should do a special comment on Nader

[pretzel4gore]

29. not even the busheviki hadn't any idea junyer was a gibbering half wit!

this is ingenuous! The fact is WE ARE A CORRUPT CULTURE! A million dead Iraqis ...you saw how the whole damn thing was fake right from the getgo...go back to the OJ Simpson case, the stampeding of popular opinion towards a staste of mind where murdering a million innocent people is now ok. To judge Nader's leftwing anger and place in within the context of 2008, while Obama himself hints friendship towards the bush murdering bastards insofar as he tries to use bush's revealed depravity today to condemn Ralph for underestimating it in comparison with what President Gore revealed then; Gore merely had to stand firm in 2k to stop junyer dead, but NOOOOO!
If Nader was wrong for comparing the two men, then how much wronger was President Gore for letting the youngster bush claim victory when it was easy to have confronted them then? Was it because this society is rotten to the quick, and the cost Al thought was too high, not worth it?
Did ANYONE watch F911? Only ONE senate vote was all that was needed to aupport the CBCaucas and deny bush the WH!
your enemy is bush and the pigmedia. Leave Nader alone
sheeees

[creeksneakers2]

106. Nader is my enemy too

I even hate him worse sometimes. What's Nader say this time about upsetting another election? Does he care? Naaaaah. Everybody is equally corrupt to Ralph, because they aren't precious him. He's all that matters.

Why does Ralph act like he cares about what will happen in the future then prove he doesn't give a crap?

[LiberalFighter]

34. I doubt that Nader could tell the difference between day and night.

He probably thinks there isn't a difference between analog OTA and digital OTA television broadcasting.

Or the difference between internet speed (300BPS) in the late 80's and current options available.

He has probably worn the same suit he wore back in the 70's.

[goclark]

56. Isn't he going to be about 74 this week?

The combined age of McCain and Nader iw more than 140 years old.

That is a lot of "experience" to have when you're up against a man that is about 48 years old.

This is the 21st Century ~ I'm a Senior but we need youth to shape the vision for the future "my friends."

[Lost-in-FL]

Bill Maher: "YouTube vs. Feeding Tube". n/t

[Lost-in-FL]

160. oops

[OhioChick]

35. Nice. n/t

[polichick]

36. What's so wonderful about Obama is...

...he doesn't let anyone throw him ~ he also answered the question about his patriotism brilliantly.

[ProSense]

37. Excellent! n/t

[Scurrilous]

38. HAH!

[cooolandrew]

39. Good to see Barack is forward thinking. As I say let Nader run but we can get his votes.

[Zodiak]

40. Obama has nothing to worry about from Nader this year

Nader could not make any headroom in 2004 with a considerably less charismatic nominee, so I do not see his campaign having the same impact it did in 2000. Obama has way too much draw power.

If it were Clinton as the nominee, then Nader would be considerably more of a threat, imo.

[BeyondGeography]

42. Thank you...That was the worst thing Ralph ever said

[dailykoff]

44. He says it every four years

and he's been saying it for decades, as have many other pundits, some with considerable credibility, like Noam Chomsky. But it's never been a particularly useful analysis.

[Tom Joad]

45. Shouldnt he be telling people that he promises to completely end the

occupation in Iraq within a year of taking office (Previously, he could not promise to do so within his first term) rather than just dismissing Nader?

Lines like he just gave are not going to attract nader voters, it is telling America he will pursue a peaceful foreign policy will make a difference.

When gore and Bush had a "debate" on foreign policy, each one agreed on nearly every past military adventure... including the US invasion of Panama, the US attack in Iraq during Bush the First. Gore nodded with Bush about a dozen or so times.

So the question was, not if there is no difference, but if there is ENOUGH difference.

I am not supporting Nader, but i am damn sick and tired of the wars of Democrats and Republicans foist on the planet, their refusal to stand for human rights, their refusal to stand for nuclear disarmament (hey, Obama, are you going to start real disarmament right here at home??? are you going to say anything about the vast nuclear arsenal in the Middle East held by Israel?), i am sick of both parties pandering to corporate lobbies and lobbies for war.

To the extent he does that, he will not only win over many potential nader votes, he will also make a commitment to making the kinds of changes necessary to build a sustainable planet. We don't want someone who is just a bit better than Bush. It is not enough that he speaks English. It is not enough that he would be a better manager. We want to throw off this dirty rotten system that is literally crushing to death so many here and abroad.

[stevenleser]

49. Defending Nader = Ignore. Bye n/t

[BleedingHeartPatriot]

52. Is this supposed to be funny?

He actually spoke to the positions that Nader takes and how that could possibly influence our nominee, or at least Sen. Obama.

I appreciate that Obama didn't let that dig from Nader go unremarked upon, however, Tom Joad brings up some good points.

I'm going to assume it was meant to be an ironic zinger of some sort.

[stevenleser]

53. Nope, he is on ignore

All I have to do is think of all of the maimed and dead Iraqis and American soldiers who would not have died if Nader hadnt run against Gore telling people that Gore and Bush were all the same. I'm NOT listening to that shit again, OK? I am not listening to anyone trying to spin Nader in a positive light. No one who does holds even the slightest bit of interest for me.

[Black Adder]

100. SPOT ON................

[Tom Joad]

57. Some people can't handle a progressive anitwar view

I do think many Obama voters do want real change, and will demand it.

During the Clinton years, we saw hundreds of thousands of Iraqi children die of starvation, while clinton/gore were keeping the sanctions on. We saw Iraq bombed and clinton sign a law authorizing "regime change in Iraq"-- that is unacceptable.

We saw telecommunication companies have their dream realized with the Telecommunications Act.

We saw the end of the promise of economic support for the nations poorest ended with "welfare reform"... the end of the New Deal.

All i am saying is that many of us would want much more of Obama. I don't care if Nader is running or not.

The best thing about Obama is that he is inspiring a movement. I think it will push President Obama to do things that he may not have thought possible.

[BleedingHeartPatriot]

84. Your post and then the knee jerk reaction were so disconnected that at first I thought

it had to be for humor's sake, due to the absurd combination.

Apparently, introducing a different facet into the ongoing discussion was cause for attack rather than speculation.

I liked you post, it gave me pause.

[Tom Joad]

55. I was supporting the end of the Occupation of Iraq.

Perhaps you do not agree. No matter.

I do know that many Obama supporters do want real change, not just incremental change. My hope is that they will make sure that Obama is held accountable to those standards. You probably won't be one of those people. Most of us will not tolerate 4 more years of any US occupation in Iraq. They will make sure Obama gets all the troops out no matter if he has said previously that he could not promise to do so.

[pretzel4gore]

113. don't be silly, Steve

save your vitriol for the reactionarkies. Nader's a leftist. His error was tactical, at worst. Blaming him for the bush horrorshow might feel good, but ...there was a body of rightwing activists who have been schemeing since Goldwater era to overthrow representative democracy in the US, and outside of Nader's tactical involvement in the 2k coup d'etat (which Ralph will tell you was going to occur regardless) and the Gore candidacy was just a stalking horse, or cover, for the bush family seizing power in broad daylight. Hating Nader just wastes your mean-ness, which pleases the bushies; it means less hate for them.
I wish it was a simple as you Nader haders like to say it is.... but Ralph Nader's an honest leftist, and he shouldn't be the bullseye on the dartboards here. next thing you guys will be dissing General Secretary Stalin!

[stevenleser]

204. Unfortunately, it is as simple as I said it is

when you take money from Republicans to tell Rove-like lies against the Democratic nominee, diluting his support, and this makes an election close enough to steal, it IS your fault.

[earthlover]

112. "Lines like he just gave are not going to attract nader voters"

There are less than 1% of Nader voters, assuming everyone who voted for him last time even remember his name....

Nader is an egoist. Obama was exactly right. Nader lacks credibility. He is a joke, a caricature of himself. In short, he doesn't know what he is talking about.

Obama said it all in one breath. Cheers!

[Name removed]

46. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[saltpoint]

47. We're hopelessly dull as well.

Always include back-of-the-hand character assassination when dismisssing several thousand people on one swoop.

[BleedingHeartPatriot]

48. ,

[backscatter712]

59. This is Democratic Underground, not Naderite Underground.

If you're going to push for a spoiler candidate that contributed to Bushie victories in the past, get your own forums.

Your efforts at promoting extremist candidates are ultimately counterproductive. I'm choosing to do what it takes to promote the candidate that is most likely to actually bring a progressive agenda to fruition. Obama's the one who can actually get some actions made. Nader will never, ever get past the "make some noise and get 2% of the vote" doldrums into action territory, and he poaches votes from the people who can.

[roseBudd]

82. Touche, what fringe candidate backers fail to acknowledge is getting elected is job 1

[Lautremont]

105. It always amuses me when people say Nader can't get votes,

and at the same time is this monsterous vote-stealing gravitational force who just ought to keep quiet.

I'm not advocating that he be voted for rather than the Democratic candidate, and if I was I wouldn't post it at Democratic Underground. But Nader is used so often as an obvious scapegoat by people who know in their heart of hearts that they themselves bear some blame for Bush by themselves not recognizing the danger of Bush back in 2000. I'm certainly not singling you out, because how could I know, but I have met such people.

As for Obama's zinger, it's on the weak side.

[smoogatz]

101. Like the choice we didn't get back in 2000, when Nader and all the morons

who voted for him made it possible for Bush to steal the presidency?

[Charogne]

186. You mean, there once were people on the left...

Who didn't vote out of complete fear but instead a desire for real change? Amazing.

[smoogatz]

191. They were idiots.

And a portion of the blame for the current disaster lies with them.

[VotesForWomen]

58. obama doesn't want nader to show people what a real progressive is like. nt

[mcg]

165. Nader is not a real progressive, info on his dark side:

http://www.realchange.org/nader.htm

...
His organizations allow no public input, intimidate foes and journalists, bust unions, hide almost all details of their finances (to the point of breaking laws), and have amassed millions of dollars - all under Nader's direct and autocratic control. Meanwhile, Ralph has gotten rich off of investments in stock; in other words, by owning and profiting off the very corporations he is attacking.
...
but he runs his carefully concealed empire with an iron grip. Of 19 groups associated with Nader, the most powerful and important groups are all directly controlled by Nader or completely under his influence and no one else's. With some groups, Nader is the only contributor; others are controlled by his sister, Laura Nader Milleron, or his cousin.
...
And there is nothing democratic about Nader's groups -- citizens have no power at all. Of 19 groups in Nader's network, only one relatively minor one is a membership organization, which would allow individuals to vote and challenge the decisions of the small elite running them. The groups' managers operate in strict secrecy, releasing the absolute legal minimum of information, and sometimes not even that. And when Nader IS challenged, he gets vindictive and often attacks his questioner.
...
Back in 1996, we noted that Nader had long earned hundreds of thousands of dollars per year in speaking fees -- over $250,000 annually even in the mid-1970s -- played the stock market and carefully avoided making details of his finances public, even as he demanded that various corporations and other politicans reveal their money dealings.
...

and there's so much more.

Nader's a phoney, a hyprocrite, and a liar.

[BattyDem]

60. He calmly speaks the truth and makes Nader look like an idiot.

Gobama!

[ZombieHorde]

61. Obama just nails Ralph Nader in Ohio

Now that's a celebrity sex I would like to see.

[SKKY]

67. Awwww dude. Come on! I just ate!

[djp2]

63. Where does Nader's money come from?

Besides the geen-niks I bet there is a large sum (untraceable of course) from the repugs. He must be a deep cover repug operative, only coming out of the muck when the repugs are in trouble.

[roseBudd]

83. You don't have to bet, it was documented by The Village Voice in '04

[Freida5]

64. And BO gave a speech at a peace rally and he has all lthe judgement to be President

Just ask Tony Rezko.

[stillrockin]

65. Anyone who votes for Nader is key-ray-zee.

[cloudythescribbler]

66. interesting anecdote on point: in 2000 as a caller into WBAI, I was one of the few who INSISTED ...

that there was a HUGE difference between Gore and Bush -- that we ABSOLUTELY didn't want another, stupider and smirkier Bush in the White House. Almost every utterance on the subject on that station at the time was pro-Nader, or at least anti-Gore.

I admitted Gore was not the most magnetic candidate, but stuck to my position

At that time, the VERY SAME people who felt Gore unworthy of support against W Bush were, on WBAI, gung-ho for Hillary in her campaign for the senate, even after nemesis-to-progressives Giuliani had dropped out.

When Nader held a MAJOR rally in DC, the audience was described as almost totally white -- not a very good sign for a progressive ...

[messiah]

68. Obama Cheany and Bush are related

funny man presidential bloodlines continue

[marlakay]

69. Good come back!

I like it. Shows he is not going to ignore or whimp out about Nadar running.

[Blue State Bandit]

71. The Truth Hurts, Don't It Ralph.

With all due respect...

If you want to help fix the country,

and to be taken seriously, find a nitch,

and stop shitting on everybody elses!

[KingOfLostSouls]

74. Naderites, I'd like to take this time...

to thank you for 8 years of this















seriously guys, thanks. especially after everything good that Al Gore has done, its easy to see now how wrong nader and his supporters are. its really become apparent that naderites and other assorted "greener than thou" types "true progressive agenda" is really code speak for "get republicans elected."

thanks guys

thanks.

[PlanetBev]

107. O Mighty King of Lost Souls, you are a great truth-teller

Your post layed out the naked, unvarnished truth for all to see...

Ralph, permit me to shove a Covair up your ass, and ignite it.

[Binka]

133. DUzy award for sure! n/t

[Lost-in-FL]

158. ...

[Highway61]

75. Ouch...

Great statement from a class act.

[Sonnenschein]

77. I wouldn't be surprised if Karl Rove is giving Nader money for him to jump in.

[Unca Jim]

85. Yep.

That says it all.

[Martin Eden]

87. Short and to the point. YES, Barack nailed him.

Ralph Nader is right about a lot of things and I wish the Democratic platform was more like his.

But Nader was DEAD WRONG in 2000 about there being "no difference" between the Republican and Democratic candidates.

Obama is right about that, and Nader was about as wrong as he could be.

That GW Bush became president in January 2001 instead of Al Gore is one of the greatest disasters ever to befall our nation.

[mzmolly]

88. Obama just scored MAJOR points with me.

[saltpoint]

91. Agree. It was a well-controlled retort to Nader but it packed a huge wallop.

That issue has been one of Ralphie's "trump cards" for a while now.

Obama just torched it.

Hiya, good person.

[mzmolly]

92. Hiya, back.

I agree. Nader should not be given another free pass by our Democratic Candidates. I am delighted to see Obama address his nonsense head on.

Also, I was just reading your awesome and amusing reply in the Nader thread Rasputin started, thanks once again for the chuckle.

[saltpoint]

93. Poor Ralph. Smart guy, but playing at a game he can't win.

Hope you're doin' well these days, mzmolly.

[mzmolly]

95. Thanks OC.

I'm doing very well these days. I hope you're doing well, as well?

[saltpoint]

96. Yep -- thanks. Last night we put on Petula Clark, the Beatles, and James

Taylor, with a bit of Bach thrown in there at the end.

Not a bad night at all.

[mzmolly]

98. Very nice

selection for a Saturday evening.

[BringBigDogBack]

90. Nice.

Also true.

[jackson_dem]

94. The irony is Obama is making many of the same attacks on the Clinton era that Nader makes

[SemiCharmedQuark]

109. That's not irony.

At all.

[H2O Man]

97. Great!

Senator Obama has a wonderful way with words!

Thank you for posting this. Nominated.

[quiet.american]

114. Perfect. nt

[List left]

115. Nailed it

[RBInMaine]

116. Nader is a non-issue and really pretty much of a joke.

Progressives can agree with him on many issues, but this nonsense about perpetual Presidential bids is nothing more than fodder for the late night comedians.

[ekwhite]

153. Agreed

Ralph Nader has become the Harold Stassen of the 21st century.

[depakid]

118. This from a guy who criticized the Alito filibuster

who apparently felt that it wasn't important enough to use his high powered rhetorical skills to oppose one of the most extreme (and unethical) judges to ever be nominated for the bench.

That's precisely the sort of behavior that Nader was talking about....

[Orsino]

121. Unrebuttable.

There was a difference, all right, and an even bigger one now. We can thank Ralph, in part, for contributing to Gore's evolution.

[Olney Blue]

122. This is exactly the way to handle Nader. You don't tell him

not to run, you expose him for his lack of credibility.

Good play, Senator Obama.

[cottonseed]

123. Did Nader just announce on Meet the Press?

Funny that he'd be doing this on a show considered the White House's biggest mouthpiece.

[rosetta627]

124. Obama is a guy who may actually be both progressive

And tough.

He said he wouldn't be swift boated and he meant it.

[gravity]

127. He is what this party needs

He doesn't hesitate to call out his opponents on their BS. I've been waiting forever for a democrat to do this.

[DemGa]

125. Is this the NEW politics??

'Cause to me, it looks like a guy smarting-off. I thought Obama was "above" this sort of thing. Think.

[stark6935]

128. I don't think its smarting off...

He can't just ignore Nader, but I feel both Clinton, and Obama would rather not have to deal with this irrelevant man. Wait, I guess he is relevant to the repukes though.

[George II]

131. With this post of yours.........

....clearly we won't ever see YOU "smarting" off! Intellectually impossible in your case.

[JackDragna]

129. ah, even more pathetic Nader-hate here.

..from people who think Obama (or Clinton, for that matter) have any real interest in ending the war, controlling corporate corruption or protecting the middle class. About all Obama is good for is witty quips, fawned over by his cult of personality. As far as what Nader had to say, if you really think there's no truth to it, I invite you to examine the record of most prominent national Democrats from September 2001 onwards. They did nothing as Bush invaded Iraq, launched attacks against his enemies (Valerie Plame), approved of torture, raised taxes on the middle class, passed the Patriot Act and numerous other draconian laws that make inroads on our personal freedoms, ruined our international reputation and other sins too numerous to document.

I ask you this, those of you who still carry venom towards Nader: if Democrats at the national level, including Mr. Gore, are so much different from the Republicans, why have they done so little to prevent the deterioration of the country?

[skepticscott]

145. The question is

If Gore had been president, what "deterioration" would there have been that needed preventing in the first place? Be specific, please. Causing something and not preventing it are two very different things, last time I checked.

And where has Nader's voice been on any of the issues you mention for the last 8 years? Nader, who had nothing to lose and no restrictions on what he could say? Why should we believe that he could do anything about them as president when he hasn't even said, let alone done, anything about them all during Bush's reign?

[JackDragna]

161. The nation was howling for blood after 9/11..

I'd make a good wager, if such things were possible, that a re-write of history with Gore as president would, at the very least, include the disastrous invasion of Afghanistan. In addition, there would still be the policy of doing very little substantive to improve the middle class, give people health care, or take care of a wide-range of issues of interest to
the wider population. I will grant you this: he would've been much better than Bush, but then again, so would a wide range of Republicans, and that's saying something.

[skepticscott]

182. Typical Naderite

In one breath you spout the same old lame rationalization that there would have been no difference between Gore and Bush, and then when you're challenged to support that assertion up with actual facts, you back down and admit that Gore would have been much better. And as far as whether any other Republican would have been better than Bush, who cares? Since Gore wasn't running for president against any other Republican, that's a completely irrelevant attempt to distract from the facts. He was running against Bush, who every Nader voter knew would be a disaster but who they still didn't care if they enabled with their anti-Gore vote.

And did you ever stop to consider that one of the reasons that Afghanistan has turned out so badly is that we diverted so many resources from there to pursue a useless and destructive invasion and occupation of Iraq, based on lies that Al Gore never would have promulgated? Many people against the invasion of Iraq DID support action in Afghanistan, since that country actually had something to do with 9/11.

Give it up..no one is drinking the Nader Kool-Aid this time.

[JackDragna]

196. Make sweeping generalizations much?

First off, I'm not even a Naderite. I'm a Democrat who thinks the party needs to move past the blame we put on the man for our failure in 2000. We lost 2000 for the same reason we lost 2004: skullduggery by Bush, combined with squishy-soft candidates who let themselves get smeared by Republican witch hunts.

Your assertion I "backed down" is laughable. I put the question first: if Gore would have been so much better, then why did national Democratic leaders, who ostensibly support the same things Gore does, do nothing to stop the president? If you think we wouldn't have gotten into many of the same kinds of messes (assuming 9/11 still would have happened), you're dreaming. If anything, the capitulation of the Democrats at the national level shows they can be just as opportunistic to enact stupid policies as the Bushies. If they would govern so different, why don't they? The dodge, sir, is by people of your beliefs, not mine.

As far as Afghanistan goes, I can't see any scenario where invasion would have led to a safe, stable country. Even if we hadn't diverted any resources to Iraq, we're talking about trying to stabilize a country full of weapons and angry at being a battlezone and a haven for foreign occupiers. It was foolish for Bush to go there and it was foolish for our leadership to approve, much less continue the thing into the farce it is today. If we really wanted to get after a country that was involved with 9/11, we should have attacked Saudi Arabia..but that, of course, will never happen.

The only Kool-Aid being drunk around here, friend, is by you and other Democrats, who conveniently forget about the capitulation of our party when election time comes around, as if someone who talks about "the audacity of hope" is going to significantly change how things are done in this country.

[skepticscott]

205. More misdirection and nonsense

For someone who's not a Naderite, you certainly seem to have a deep-seeded need to defend him.

First of all, NO ONE has ever claimed that Nader's candidacy was the only reason Gore lost in 2000, but it was a sufficient reason in and of itself, and it WAS the only reason that Nader and his supporters had complete control over, control which they declined to exercise, out of ego and self-indulgence alone. And why do you keep trying to conflate "national Democratic leaders" and "a wide range of Republicans" with the one person who was running for president as a Democrat in 2000? What other Democrats have done or what other Republicans might have done since that election is irrelevant to whether Gore would have been a better president than Bush. I'm not blind to the flaws of the Democrats, nor will you find anyone else on the board who is, but any sane person knows that the Republicans are FAR worse in every imaginable way.

When I asked you to cite specific examples of how this country would have deteriorated under Gore like it has under Bush, all you could offer up was your unsupported, self-serving, crystal ball prediction that Gore would have invaded Afghanistan after 9/11. If that was the only destructive thing Bush had done in his term, the country would be doing great. Would Al Gore have supported torture, secret prisons, illegal renditions, violations of habeus corpus, violations of FISA, political persecution of US attorneys, blatant violations of the 1st and 6th Amendments, etc., etc....you know the list as well as I do, so look into your crystal ball and tell me confidently that Gore would have done all those things too.

And do you still dispute the fact that causing something and not preventing it are two VERY different things? Answer that question first if you're going to waste my time with another weasely response.

[BleedingHeartPatriot]

149. As opposed to Nader, who has a direct line to GE whenever he wants to

go on MTP.

He is lifting practically verbatim Kucinich's words and voting record, oops, forgot, Nader would never work for a constiuency,and while Kucinich is marginalized, Russert brings Nader on to play "trash the Dems".


Go ahead, please tell us again how the Dems are exactly the same as the R's. Nader is playing us.

[defendandprotect]

175. Evidently, you don't realize that it's just the reverse . . . !!!

Good Heavens . . . find out something about Ralph Nader ---
The Platform he ran on in 2000 which was even superior to the Green Party Platform ---
and you might come to understand how comprehensive and complete the things have talked about
for decades has been --- you have no idea of this at all!

[BleedingHeartPatriot]

187. I used to admire him tremendously. He is espousing almost exactly Rep Kucinich platform.

Except, he's never held public office, he has no voting record AND he is able to get free air time whenever he pleases, unlike Kucinich.

I was also disappointed that while he decried the two party he did nothing after 2000 to throw his sterling reputation and name recognition, not to mention his solid following, into beginning to build a viable third party from the grass roots up.

Instead, he writes books and gives speeches,for which he's paid quite well, and then calls Russert and voila, free time on MTP. All without the hassle of having to participate in the early debates or campaigning. All without the work of getting the structure on the ground in the various states.

And, he immediately launched attacks, not only on Sen. Obama and Sen. Clinton, but on the DEMOCRATIC Congress while he was on MTP, including a questioning whether Sen. Obama had the "moral courage" to get things done.

Hubris thine name is Nader. He was great, once.

[defendandprotect]

203. MLK never held public office --- had no voting record ---

And since when does Nader "get free air time whenever he wants" ---
what is this . . . r-w talking points?

Build a viable third party?
Evidently, you don't understand that the Repugs AND Democrats are blocking third parties --?
They don't want them --- they don't want the kinds of discussions which third party candidates
raise!!!

Nader is working --- I believe he has a lawsuit --- to prevent this blocking.
Let me suggest that you read some of Nader's books ---
and perhaps you'll come to understand that there is NOTHING that either Kucinich nor Edwards
has ever discussed that Nader hasn't brought to America's attention FIRST.

I'd don't know that you've noticed . . . but right here at DU, we have people "launching attacks on both Obama and Clinton" --- and I might add, on the Democratic Party and its leadership---!!!

In fact, Hillary is launching attacks on Obama --- !!!

[BleedingHeartPatriot]

207. You lost me at Nader=MLK

[defendandprotect]

212. You lost me at Kucinich = Nader

You'll find that when you take your fingers out of your ears, or your hands from in front of your eyes, you can learn that Nader's positions are what Kucinich is spouting.

Nader built the Green Party which was going no where ---
and yes, it continues to work from the ground up --

There is no law which says that we have to have this campaign insanity going on for a year and more --- nor that we have to live with privatized corporate running of our debates! These are all the issues which Nader --- and NOT Democrats --- challenges.

In many respects the GOP Swiftboating/Smears of so many have succeeded not only because of the cooperation of corporate-media . . . but because of the failure of so many Americans to do any thinking that challenges r-w propaganda.

[Lost-in-FL]

159. Nader only comes around every 4 years...

What have he done during these 7 years to prevent the "deterioration" of America? I only hear crickets...

Do you really think he cares??

[JackDragna]

162. Do you keep up with any of Nader's organizations?

I have no idea what he's done during this time. Perhaps it's nothing. Then again, Ralph Nader has not been a prominent member of the opposition party to the Republicans, one which has done nothing to stop our nation from going in the toilet, even when they had the majority in both houses of Congress. The fault for not stopping Bush lies with our leaders, not with third-party mavens.

[Lost-in-FL]

164. He is a Republican by money contributions...

cause he was financed by Republicans and was put in the ballots with Republican signatures. And Nader is the cause this country its going down the toilet, he has blood in his hands. If it makes you feel better keep blaming the "opposition party" to the Republicans.

[JackDragna]

171. Nader doesn't deserve such a label.

Nader ran in a single election of import, one that was closely contested not because of his existence, but because the vice-president of a hugely popular president ran an ineffective, weak campaign where he let Republicans dictate the tempo at every turn. Do you hold such ire for the International World Worker's Party, whose votes, if given to Gore, would have allowed him to win Florida? Do you hold, in equal contempt, the appeasement of our national leaders, who have had infinitely more power than Nader to stop the president? When are you, and other on this board, going to accept it's the fault of our national leadership for not stopping the president, and not Ralph Nader?

[BleedingHeartPatriot]

188. You can defend him all you want. It won't change the fact that he has become a shill.

[JackDragna]

195. That may even be true..

..and I won't dispute it. The issue in question, however, lies in the truth of Obama's statement, which is the issue at hand. It's an unfair characterization of Nader and always has been, even when it was just a epithet hurled at the man by members of our party upset with his candidacy in 2000.

[parkeradison]

132. Ralph Nader

I think that Ralph just wants a little attention too. Maybe he'd be happy if he could play the role of a spoiler again. I guess keeping his name somewhat prominent is more important to him than actually electing someone with similar values to his own.

[Buzz Clik]

134. I've spent the last 7 years defending Nader even though I have never voted for him.

My state of Indiana went about 99 to 1 for GWB in 2000, and I voted for Gore. Florida was stolen from Gore, but Nader no doubt enabled that to happen.

My defense of Nader has amounted to, roughly: "George Bush was a joke of a candidate. A clear boob. Gore trailed Bush the entire election cycle but managed only to make it close enough at the end for the Supreme Court to steal. Don't blame Nader, blame Gore."

I saw Nader on MTP today, and he started acting like universal health was always and is now his greatest passion and may fuel the fire for his candidacy. I gave the tv the finger, accompanied it with a hearty "Fuck you, Nader," and I have turned my back on him forever.

He truly is an attention whore.

[Snotcicles]

135. I Doubled Dog Dare Obama to debate Nader. nt

[Xipe Totec]

136. Why? n/t

[mistertrickster]

139. No sh!t. Good one, Obama. Thing is, Nader did a lot of good before his massive

ego took over and forced him to continually run for president.

I remember when he used to say he could do more good by not holding office. He was right.

He should have stuck with what was working--attacking the corportocracy.

[Skittles]

141. say it over and over again, Obama

P L E A S E

[RememberWellstone]

146. Love that gutter

Nice one Obamanational....go lower, it helps the race.

[Skittles]

169. ?

he is speaking the absolute truth

[usregimechange]

148. soooo correct

[Catherine Vincent]

150. He needs to come out swinging more against Nader.

I hate that ass and what he did to the Democratic party!

[Snotcicles]

152. Yeah he needs to debate him and really make him look like an ass. nt

[hay rick]

151. Nader's obituary

Florida 2000. Sorry, all the other stuff doesn't count.

[New Dawn]

155. I do not find that statement to be very convincing

And I voted for Obama at the caucus.

Let us not forget that Al Gore had Joseph Lieberman as his VP candidate. The fact is, both Dick Cheney and Joseph Lieberman wanted to start the exact same war in the Middle East. The Neocons simply could have assassinated President Gore and then the new President Lieberman would have blamed it on Iraq and invaded.

[Infinite Hope]

156. Damn. Great one! He's good at refuting opponents in a way that resonates with average voters.

He's more like Bill Clinton than Hillary.

[Infinite Hope]

157. Do you have a link to that quote somewhere btw? n/t

[Colobo]

170. I copied it just after he said it on CNN.

[InvisibleTouch]

163. Well said! n/t

[Captain_Nemo]

166. Nader is going to nail him on his lobbyists and his corporate money. Get real.

[GainesT1958]

168. I thought Ralphie Boy was only going to run...

If Hillary was the nominee-apparent. Wonder what changed his mind? How many Repubs does he want to help become president, anyhow?

Not gonna happen this time, Ralph!

[defendandprotect]

177. Here's one of the reasons Nader mentioned . . .

Nader, from page 2 of the MTP transcript:

I give you the example, the Palestinian-Israeli issue, which is a real off the table issue for the candidates. So don't touch that, even though it's central to our security and to, to the situation in the Middle East. He was pro-Palestinian when he was in Illinois before he ran for the state Senate, during he ran--during the state Senate. Now he's, he's supporting the Israeli destruction of the tiny section called Gaza with a million and a half people. He doesn't have any sympathy for a civilian death ratio of about 300-to-1; 300 Palestinians to one Israeli. He's not taking a leadership position in supporting the Israeli peace movement, which represents former Cabinet ministers, people in the Knesset, former generals, former security officials, in addition to mayors and leading intellectuals. One would think he would at least say, "Let's have a hearing for the Israeli peace movement in the Congress," so we don't just have a monotone support of the Israeli government's attitude toward the Palestinians and their illegal occupation of Palestine.

[Tarc]

179. Nader nails Obama there, but the same can be said for most other politicians

AIPAC has most under their thumb these days.

[defendandprotect]

181. BUT IT CAN'T BE SAID OF NADER . . . !!!

That's the point -- !!

Where else do you hear a candidate discussing something like this --- ?

Maybe Kucinich . . . maybe even Edwards --

Look at the idiotic questions being asked in the debates ---

That's why it was so necessary to keep Kucinich and Edwards in there ---
we still have a year to go ---

Now, you've given them Obama as a sole target ---

and they can concentrate on their next steal!!!

[the other one]

172. Oh Oh I can't stop laughing

Welcome to Ignore

[defendandprotect]

180. And most grown up understood what Nader was saying about corporate

takeovers of our political parties . . .

Gore had a career long relationship with Occidental Petroleum --

Have you ever heard Gore call for nationalizing oil ---

For Electric Cars ---

He's telling you about changing light bulbs --- !!!

Wake up!!!

[BleedingHeartPatriot]

189. Get back to me when Nader has more than mere words to offer up. And, if GE thought Nader had a

chance in hell of winning, they would censor him as they did with first Kucinich and then Edwards. He has no chance to win, but he sure can stir the sh**.

Did you see the soft ball questions Russert lobbed at him? He is the darling of GE right now.

[defendandprotect]

202. Get back to me when you can tell me that we have corporate-fascism

and war in Iraq despite the Democrats standing against it --- !!!

Nader is coming into the race to do what Kucinich and Edwards were doing ---
bringing common sense to issues --- widening the discussions of issues ---
talking about things that the two parties don't want to talk about ---
in ways that they don't want to talk about them or have them understood.

GE is now and always has been fanatically right-wing --
they were the original "defrauders" of government on arms production costs.

So you're saying that GE "censored Kucinich and Edwards" and would have the power to block Nader, as well -- but the Democrats don't know this? Do they even mention the corporate-media issue?

Presumably you also think that the Democrats KNOW that Nader was the cause of Gore's "loss" in 2000 and is a threat in 2008 . . . but they have done nothing about it in .... 8 years????

How often do Democrats mention the Supreme Court steal?
The fascist GOP rally outside Miami-Dade HQs to STOP the vote counting?
The fact that Gore actually won the 2000 election?

How happy are you with the Reid/Pelosi/Hoyer positions since 2006?

[BleedingHeartPatriot]

206. I know I saw Nader given star billing on MTP. Edwards was on rarely, and

Kucinich never, even thought they had formally entered the primaries and been campaigning and, later debating, for months.

Nader had enough credibility to effect the election in 2000. He could have done so much to reform the political system, behind the scenes, and as an advocate of a truly progressive party.

As disappointed as I am in our Democratic congress, he could have been declaring his presidency with a party that had reps at least in local precincts and perhaps up to the State Senate level all the way to possible Congressional Reps.

The Green Party was ready and waiting. He would have been a powerful force for giving us a truly viable third party, which he claimed was what we should have in 2000.

He took his passion and interest elsewhere.

[defendandprotect]

213. Your argument should be with the treatment of Edwards and Kucinich . . .

and not with Nader ---

He's running for president --- why shouldn't he be covered?

Gore WON in 2000 --- and there were many third party candidates --- including Buchanan who took
a large pool of votes in Florida due to the "butterfly" ballot --- set up by Teresa La Pore . ..
later traced to a realtionship with Repugs!

NADER HAS worked to reform the system --- he has steadily fought for third parties and IRV voting --
he has a lawsuit currently for third party access.
Nader built the Green party which was going no where --
and the Greens work from the local levels up!

The GREEN PARTY --- and I am a member of it --- ran off frightened like a rabbit when the SWIFTBOATING/SMEAR of Nader began in 2000.

It was the Green Party which rejected Nader --- !!!!

The Democrats have done nothing for you to amend the situation --
these election steals began in the mid-1960's . . .
See: VOTESCAM -- The Stealing of America
a book written by two journalists --- Jim & Ken Collier --
the website is kept going by their family to keep the book, which was suppressed, available
for the public.

http://www.constitution.org/vote/votescam__.htm

[BleedingHeartPatriot]

214. I'm done arguing about Nader's merits with you. He has the money and connections to

hang in during this race.

Support him all you want. I'm done hearing about St. Nader. Since he got GM to look at the Corvair, what has he done for us lately?

[defendandprotect]

217. That you have to ask what Nader has done lately indicates what is obvious ---

you know very little about Nader and his 30/40 years of informing America ---

[Igetnocards]

192. Obama better than Clinton better than Nader better than Obama

Lot of bickering here. Seems to me yeh, Nader killed our chances in FL, but apparently we need better choices. How about Campaign Finance Reform. Real Reform. We should be able to figure this out right?

[MasonJar]

194. Actually I cannot think of anything more striking for anyone to say.

That should be the tagline everytime Nader shows his foolish face. And I am a Clinton supporter so I am not just touting Obama.

[windbreeze]

197. Now what was is it about Obama saying nothing of substance that I keep hearing?

seems he sure put those words where they were needed most....3 cheers!! That's the first time he's impressed me...wb

[Freida5]

208. What he lied about the Nader record also!

[PretzelWarrior]

209. Rock ON, OBAMA! you nailed it.

P.S. Non Obama supporters. There is actually direct and smart shit like this that draws us toward him as a candidate. It isn't just his "aura".